Discussions
A World Without Feminism.
Posted by gingerbeer25 • 7/10/08 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: equal rights, feminism, sexism
It is common to hear many women today say I am not a feminist or anything but...I think that we are suffering from a form of collective amnesia about what the world before feminism was like. Pay close attention colluders. Every time you say I am not a feminist, you are denying things like battered womens shelters, the right to vote, rape counseling, and equal pay for equal work. Which one of these benefits do you want to give back?
www.womanist-musings.com/2008/07/world-without-feminism.html
User Comments
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I am a feminist.
What I am not is the modern day femi-nazi that try to convince other women that the only way to be equal is to act like a man.-
Ditto! -
Yeah!
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Me neither! -
My blog is the result of femi-nazzism
www.LegallyKidnapped.blogspot.com
It truely is a dangerous concept and they do have too much power.
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I can only speak for myself, but I would go to great lengths to ensure that I was not thought of as a feminist because of the horrible and well-deserved reputation that today's feminists have chosen for themselves. The world is full of good associations and businesses gone bad, and to say that one would never vote Republican today is hardly to say that he'd like to "give back" the abolition of slavery. It's absurd to suggest that anyone who doesn't want to be associated with today's feminist movement doesn't value the achievements of past women (and men) who may or may not have called themselves feminists. -
I'm a feminist ... but I have to agree, to some extent, with what both Anok and MadameX are saying.
I don't think it's a very cohesive organization, there are just to many differences between women for that to happen. I do think women's groups should be doing more to help women of other cultures, where a lot of what we fought for here in Canada & the US are not available to women in other countries. Of course, a lot of that is done through other organizations, like Amnesty International. -
It is hardly absurd to say that you don't value the gains of feminism if you cannot call yourself a feminist. Here is my question...what kind of feminism do you specifically have a problem with?
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I personally have a problem with feminists that have all but eliminated men from their lives other than being sperm donors.
The women who feel that REAL women work outside of the home, raise their kids, and do all of the housework and the men do...what they've always done, I guess.
Superwomen.
The ones that tell you you aren't valuable to society if you don't have a career.
If you don't make more money than your husband.
If you put your children's needs before your career, yourself, or your desires.
This, to me, is a mockery of feminism, but it's what a lot of women are buying into. -
The kind that hung around on the quad when I was in law school and didn't allow men to cross campus to make a point. The kind that belittles women who choose more traditional roles and claims they're ruining things for everyone else. The kind that thinks all men are "the enemy" because they have some kind of nebulous benefit from having been born male. This list could go on for days.
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Yup Tiffany, I can't tell you how many times I've been told I'm ruining it for everyone because I exercised my right to choose what kind of contribution I would make to society.
Ugh! -
Anok and Tiffany have said it all for me and have said it very well.
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The man-hating feminists.
"It looks to me as if those feminist gals have gotten women to measuring themselves by how close they come to being men. It's funny how much feminism resembles a rejection of everything feminine, almost like vicarious male-chauvinism. A woman who works sixty-hour weeks in some depressing law firm is a hero (feminists don't like the feminine "heroine") but a woman who raises her children is an embarrassment. Which is more important? Continuing the species? Or having another lawyer?"
www.fredoneverything.net/Golf.shtml
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I don't like feminism that basically equates to male bashing. I find that defeats the purpose of the movement because it makes it hard to take seriously ... it makes the feminist movement look very prejudicial and not intellectually sound.
edit: I also agree with Anok & Tiffany ... some feminists are very anti women who stay at home and raise children, which I think is the most important and most difficult task anyone could do. I do find that many feminists devalue that choice in the way many men have done for years.-
Or that they have penis envy.
(Seriously)
A woman's contribution to society is what is equally valid - not her position in society or how much of a man-shark she acts like in the board room
Today's feminists are even worse towards women then men were, in many ways. -
Agreed. Many feminists seem anti-woman and more like the men the original feminists fought against. It's very odd.
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I have no idea why though. I guess the notion is that in order to be equal we must be the same?
Boggles the mind -
Yes, I worked for a woman like that once. She was very proud of the fact that she had no maternal instinct ... eventho she had kids. Well, that's nice, but she put down women who did have a maternal instinct. She belittled them all the time ... even her staff. I'm not maternal either so I didn't have kids ... who cares? Big deal. But she wore it like some kind of badge of honour ... because it made her more like a man. That's just twisted.
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@Drowseymonkey
I also have worked with two women who were unwittingly anti-female, while stating along that they were feminists.
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Mmmmmmmmmmm feminists.-
Put your tongue back in your mouth, mister!
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I'm all for feminism, I have loads of videos featuring feminism maybe we can all watch them together in our pants sometime.
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All together, or in separate rooms, and separate times?
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I'm easy, but same room would be best we could make popcorn and talk about lady stuff before starting our playful tickling.
I actually interviewed Germaine Greer, author of the Female eunuch, for my last post. We didn't really get on, sadly.
newsdirect-aningeniousname.blogspot.com/2008/06/news-direct-meets-germaine-... -
I saw Germaine Greer at a conference in Toronto. She gave a great presentation ... and she had some good points, but sadly I get the feeling she doesn't like being a woman very much. Just my own personal opinion.
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I concur with your opinion of Germaine Drowsey ... *lol*
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lol TT! You're so agreeable today!
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I'm off to blog a post. Catch you later.
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I'd like it better if self-described feminists didn't take every opportunity to bash men and act as thought they are the scum of the earth.
It's like blaming all white people because a few bad ones owned slaves. All men are not abusive a-holes but a lot of feminists are man haters to the core, which is a big turn off for me and a lot of other women I know.
It seems like they only approve of weak men, another huge turn off.-
Yep ... well said.
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How true and like Anok said above some only think of men as sperm donors and nothing more than that. Basically, it's the extremists that rub against my grain.
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Yeah, weak men are yuck
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I think a lot of men are afraid to be a 'strong man' these days for fear that they will be perceived as what these feminazis stereotype real men as.
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Isn't it interesting that thus far all of the objections to "feminists" here have come from independent, strong-willed, self-sufficient women?
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Yup!
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I've noticed that too. Also as well as all of us being independent, strong-willed, self-sufficient women, we are all women who have some life experience to draw on. Certainly my own spans 30 years of adulthood ie. working experience gained in the labor force.
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It is interesting, for sure.
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I think that you are all making a lot of generalization about feminism. Speaking about male privilege which all men are born, just as all white people are born with racial privilege, is not the same as hating men. What I notice lacking from the discussion is pointing to a certain form of feminism that you find offensive...is anyone even aware of the different kinds of feminist theory?
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Of course. But we're also keenly aware of the association that the word "feminism" brings to mind--an association intentionally cultivated by a very vocal group of women who does, in my opinion, a lot more harm than good. Blame them for co-opting the title if you don't like the fact that rational women shy away from it, but the association is what it is, and it's one I--and many others, it seems--want nothing to do with.
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Speaking about male privilege which all men are born, just as all white people are born with racial privilege...
I can't believe what I just read. You cannot seriously convince me that there are people who believe such crap? -
I think we have outlined, in great detail, the type of feminism we find offensive.
The ones that have hijacked it to bash men, or bash women who disagree with trying to act like men.
Other forms of feminism is just fine. Equal pay for equal work, being seen as valuable parts of society even if we choose not to act like men, or try to be superwomen, equality in regards to law, justice, voting, and privileges etc... -
Tiffany and Anok have nailed it.
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That is such crap! I have known plenty of white men who were born with NO privilege. None.
Ugh, this is exactly the mentality that turns me away from feminism, liberalism and bulls**tism.
I suppose all gun owners are illiterate white trash, too? *rolls eyes* -
@flamingpoodle
I'm sorry say that there are those who spew this stuff.
They are the extremists that rub against my grain.
They are the hijackers of "feminism". -
Well Timethief, I'm glad they hate men because I don't think they should breed. I certainly won't let any girl raise any of my kids with a victim mentality chip on their shoulder.
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@flamingpoodle Armies of these feminazi types are pouring out of our colleges here, despite having rational minded mothers. It is appalling.
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They may outgrow it, Chelle. Things tend to look a little different once you spend some time in the real world.
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I hope so, Tiffany.
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I agree with that Tiffany, a little time on the planet has a way of changing ones perspective.
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Not to bust your bubble, but go into a work out of home, stay at home debate.
They do not grow out of it
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From the article: "Today, the feminist view is starting to fade. More and more women are discovering that real happiness and "personal fulfillment" are not to be found in the factory or office, and that few jobs offer beatitude but, rather, boredom, drudgery and stress. Women are saying in ever greater numbers that they want marriage and family, and that they want to devote full time to it. Those who have to keep working wish it were otherwise."
I am living proof of this. I was a career woman, for many years I worked and juggled raising kids and was miserable. So were 99% of the other working women who had kids that I knew.
When I made the decision to 'retire' and stay home full time, I was met with a lot of support, which surprised me. Now, I can't tell you how many women I meet say to me "I wish I could stay home with my kids but I can't!!".
"Feminism" is not all it's cracked up to be, and our children and society as a whole have been going downhill quickly since women left the home. I'd love for anyone to prove otherwise. -
That's very true. My mom is a career women. She took time off to raise us until we were old enough to go to school before she continued with her career again.
She's not a feminist and she's not a beaten woman (I'd like to see someone try that one with her...).
Everywhere in the world, where career women take root, the population shrinks! -
It's because these women don't value the role of wife or mother, and to me that seems anti feminist. There's nothing wrong with women having careers etc, but equally there is nothing wrong with wanting to stay home and look after your kids, it doesn't make you oppressed.
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When I decided to raise my daughter rather than returning to the practice of law, I was primarily attacked by men. From women I got a lot of the kind of "you're so lucky" that others have mentioned here (though that irked me a bit, since there was no luck involved--we had to make some very hard choices to make it happen) but many of the men I knew professionally or from school reacted VERY negatively and told me that I was wasting my intelligence and my education.
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Tiffany, I know a low of women who feel that way ... which is unfortunate. It's unfortunate that anyone thinks that whether they're male or female. What a way to judge a person ... on their employment or income. Very sad. And what a way to think, that the act of raising a child doesn't benefit from being intelligent.
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kevinatserieatalk:
I'm kind of confused as to what something a man ( a man no less geesh) who died in 1938 had to say about feminism ( the whole paragraph offended blogger quoted) has to do with anything in 2008.
I find many women in their effort to please men will laugh at sick offensive jokes and such, which is in itself so demeaning to the women who do it, at least in my eyes. I find that here as well often enough to make me think this is not really going to be a pretty discussion. ;0
I don't call myself anything, but am of course for women doing all things, or doing what they choose.
I do think that what some people are bothered by is those such as
Linda Hirshman (Get to Work: A Manifesto for Women of the World). That was a pretty offensive book to many women. That I think is the attitude many women think of when they think of current feminism. -
cooper - I agree with what you say about offensive jokes, altho "offensive" is a subjective term. But I find that with a lot of younger women ... which I find unfortunate.
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Oh, God where were you guys when I was having these debates years and years ago. I could have used some back up!!!
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Sometimes women think on their own, too. I am a grown woman, I laugh at dirty jokes and it has nothing to do with anything except that I don't have a stick up my butt like some people (men and women) do.
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I love dirty jokes.
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Well, you shouldn't! It demeans us women, Anok.
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Next thing you know, she'll tell us that she pole dances! -
See now, I am so confused.
I though taking charge of our sexuality and dirty little minds and enjoying it was a feminist objective...
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Well, I think it's a fine line when it comes to offensive humour, and like I said, "offensive" is subjective. I'm pretty liberal when it comes to raunchy humour, so my tolerance is higher than others, but ...
I have noticed a lot of younger women, and this is just my opinion, do sometimes do what cooper said. I actually think it has more to do with age than anything else tho.
edit: yeah, I know what you mean cooper (re the comment below mine) there's a kind of toilet humour that is rather adolescent and at one time only guys did that ... yay for women joining in (sarcasm) -
Would it be wrong if I said stupid jokes were offensive and demeaning to intelligent people?
I mean, honestly...we will all be offended at some point in our life... -
Wow, Cooper how defensive of you. I wasn't aiming the stick up the butt comment at you, but hey, if you want to take it that way all the power to ya!
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Hmmm...do you have any idea how many blonde jokes I hear? I think they're hysterical! Life's too short to be so serious.
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@Anok Other forms of feminism is just fine. Equal pay for equal work, being seen as valuable parts of society even if we choose not to act like men, or try to be superwomen, equality in regards to law, justice, voting, and privileges etc...
Proves my point exactly...you didn't name a form of feminism what soever. Feminist theory...radical, liberal, third-wave, DYI, Anti-racist, Socialist, Post structural etc and etc...If you are going to be against something you should have a working knowledge of what it entails..just pointing to a few random odds and ends is ridiculous.-
*ahem*
I studied feminism at university.
necrofiles.blogspot.com/2008/04/chauvinist-guide-to-feminism-part-2.html -
ginger - it's been a while since my Women's Studies days at university, so I'm not familiar with all the various sub-groups of feminism. I guess it's like when someone has a problem with Christianity ... that's kind of an umbrella term, obviously there are 100s of sub groups within the larger one.
I find that sometimes the more vocal feminists are representative of the minority extremists within the group, which is the case with any group, not just feminism. And unfortunately people then jump to the conclusion that they are representative for the whole ... which they're not. -
Er, I don't really care what they are called.
I care what the objective is.
We have all outlined what is good - and what is bad. No one cares what group they belong too LOL. Groups mean nothing, results and long term effects mean everything.
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Oh, and part 1 has all the definitions plus ratings for each wave of feminism:
necrofiles.blogspot.com/2007/12/chauvinist-guide-to-feminism-part-1.html
Now get back into the kitchen, and bake me some pie! -
This was always a hot topic online since I had the internet.
Male bashing makes no sense, since most things in this world were invented by men. We all would basically have nothing today. I would be thankful. I sometimes think this is the reason for the male bashing that goes on. I have never heard anyone say it yet though.
Just my view!-
Sooo it is *ahem* penile envy? That's my theory.
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It works the same way between men though also. If a guy is good at chess and the other guy can never win at the game, sometimes the guy who doesn't win hates chess just because they have not won. It works the same way between friends and many other things in life. It is not a gender thing.
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@Mike obviously you study history and herstory...when you have been editited from textbooks and not allowed to participate in the public sphere this is what you get. The more women that are given a chance to make a difference in the world I am sure that you will see the great things that can be created by women. It isn't fair to crow about achievements when one) the wife or mistress always worked in the supporting role allowing the achievement to occur in the first place and 2) women were systematically shut out of positions of power.
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Hi ginger! I agree with you on everything. I know they didn't have the same opportunities.
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@Drowsey...I think that feminism suffers more from a representation problem than anything. The squeaky wheels that claim to speak for feminism certainly do not represent me or even the majority of feminists. When I look at people like Vandanna Shiva who is doing amazing work and compare them to the Jezebel.com twits it is clear that the problem is who representing rather than feminism itself.
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To some degree I agree with you, Ginger...but I think that carrying on about crap like "male privilege" is just as much a part of what gives feminism a bad name as the things you cite.
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I'm not sure why though. Male privilege is a fact and from it stems much misogyny. Just ask women doctors, scientist, women trying to seek tenure.
How many times do you see a man walking down the street dressed in what might be considered sexy and have him called a slut, or how often do women make catcalls after him?
How often when a male loses a n office job do you think it's suggested he lost it because he wasn't up to it because he was a man?
How often do you think it's suggested to a conventionally attractive man that he got his job because of his looks?
How often do you think an aggressive man is called a bitch?
How likely is it that while scrolling the internet one will come across a degrading image of a man in some kind of corpse like death pose half dressed being gawked over by a women?
I could probably make an unending list. -
Honestly, Cooper, those tired old cliches are almost comical at this point. I've certainly seen men mocked and assumptions made about their morals because of the way they dressed; I've seen men get jobs because they were good looking and charming and seen good looking young men's relationships with their female superiors questioned when they got ahead, and one of my closest male friends was seriously sexually harassed by a 50+ year old company owner when we were in our twenties. Women ogle revolting pictures of men bulging out of Speedos and such just like men do women in bikinis and make crude jokes about them...and while aggressive men may not be called "bitches" specifically, they're certainly the recipients of plenty of other insults. To pretend that men have this idyllic life and women are the perpetual victims is a kind of fifties stereotype that has nothing to do with the world I've been a professional in for twenty years and is insulting to men and women alike.
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You don't know the half of it. I'm so tired of being treated like a piece of meat!
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I'd also call into question whether rudeness qualifies as privilege. I mean, Tiffany pointed out plenty of things that women do to men and that men do to other men that are just as rude and degrading.
But that has little to do with "birth privilege". -
I wish they were cliches, they aren't. Sure you have a random domestic violence case or sexual harassment case going the opposite way but comparatively speaking it is hardly the case routinely.
Never used the word victim it just shouldn't be the case at this point in time, that is all, and it is.
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Yeah, the She-Woman-Man-Haters type suck and wreck it for the rest of us with a brain and a little brawn.
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Haha! She-Woman-Man-Haters, that is so cute.
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Well, the guys got their name! I had to even the score.
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I thought I needed to make my point twice -- OOPS!
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It's like labor unions. Everyone says they don't like them, but no one's going to give back time and a half or worker safety laws or paid time off or child labor laws. They're against labor unions, but for everything they've gained.
I guess it demonstrates the danger of complacency. When the gains you've made become the norm, people think they don't need you anymore. But the fact is that they do. The reasoning is like getting rid of the police because crime is down -- it wouldn't stay down for long after that.-
Wisco, that is true in a sense. This is what happened with the Hilary debacle.
This is a generalization but it is what I saw not only on the web but in real life.
The older women were for her so hard because they had fought for these rights and wanted a women, they were quite angry at the younger women because they felt the younger women were giving it all up,didn't appreciate what they had fought and won, were not "getting it" or whatever. They kept saying things like "we didn't understand" "we still needed it"( feminism). I do not disagree, their is some complacency especially to those who are not working in fields where sexism is blatant, and most people my age were brought and told we cold do anything, ( finding the sexism later on as it appeared in both school and life ). But as the unions have to change so does feminism. For most my age feminism is only cool when it's "cool feminism". -
The one thing that bothers me about the whole Clinton thing though - is that not voting for her had nothing to do with feminism.
Feminists made it about feminism, and while it would have been wonderful to see a woman in the white house - if it isn't the right person for the job, it isn't the right person.
That's what bothers me about feminism - or anything like that. Promoting of someone from the group just because they are from that group with little or no regard to actual skill, ability, etc...
I wouldn't have voted for Clinton if you put a gun to my head -
For me, the labor union and high-profile feminism questions are about the same thing: are their current aims and positions ones with which I agree? I can appreciate what someone or an organization has accomplished in the past without slavishly (or sheepily) supporting them in perpetuity because of it.
I'm with Anok on the Clinton campaign. I resented the implication (or outright statement) that I'm not a good enough woman because I didn't want to vote for her. That only made me more resistant.
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@ANok you need to qualify that comment. Certain feminists made it a feminist issue. I am a WOC and Geraldine Ferraro does not speak for me. Feminist/womanists like Alice Walker endorsed Obama. It all depends on where you are looking. As I said earlier just because some women are squeaky wheels does not mean that they represent all feminism.
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It was in response to Coopers comments about feminist supporters of Clinton.
I thought the reference was clear.
Here, let me change the sentence:
Feminists who support Clinton made it about feminism, and while it would have been wonderful to see a woman in the white house - if it isn't the right person for the job, it isn't the right person. -
I agree with you, Anok. There's something absurd about the idea that we should automatically support any woman, regardless of her skills, history, ethics, etc. simply because she's a woman. And doing so can backfire badly.
What always surprises me is that the very feminists who rant and carry on about how women shouldn't in any way shape or form be judged on the fact that they are women suddenly want that to be the only thing we see about them in a situation like this--talk about dehumanizing someone and reducing her to her gender! -
Yup Tiffany, it's a double edged argument, isn't it?
I also get annoyed with the whole feminist we are equal women who turn around and want men to open doors and pay for dinner, and are actually offended if they don't.
Talk about having your cake and eating it too -
"I also get annoyed with the whole feminist we are equal women who turn around and want men to open doors and pay for dinner, and are actually offended if they don't."
I can't say I've actually encountered any of those. I remember a friend's mother when I was a child who would scream at strange men who dared to hold doors for her and refuse to walk through them. -
LOL _ I don't like those kind either
The way I see it is, It's OK for a man to open a door for me - and it's equally OK for me to open a door for a man.
Or an elderly woman, or pregnant woman, or man with bags in hands - or disabled person or or or...
I think we, as a society, need to stop confusing manners and niceties for insults about our gender
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ANOK agree...sorry that I misunderstood.
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No problem.
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By the way, there are women who were tough enough to make it in a man's world.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boudica
That's long before feminism. Now try and tell me Boudica was suppressed or scrubbed out of history, especially in light of the fact that she was rediscovered during the Renaissance and became a cultural heroine during the Victorian age. Is there possibly a more sexist age? -
Personally I could live without both feminism and its counterpart male chauvinism. -
A lot of my college students assert that they are not feminists. When we cover the nineteenth century and much of the twentieth centuries, though, they discover that they support many, even most feminist stances from the time.
The problem is that the term "feminism" these days seems to have been lost to the more militant feminists, leaving more mainstream liberal feminists uncomfortable with the label. These same people react with outrage, however, when they read some of the antifeminist texts I give them from one or two hundred years ago.
I don't really care what they call themselves. They can say they're not feminists, but they are still espousing feminist positions, which is good enough for me.
Edited to add: Of course, feminism means many things to many people. Here's my own bare bones working definition that I've espoused in these forums before. Feminism is that radical notion that woman are people too. -
Feminism is that radical notion that woman are people too.
HA!
Yup, I think that about sums it up -
We need a new name for it, let's call ourselves feministas!
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That just sounds like female hygiene product.
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How about femininjas?
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Ooh I like that one Legbamel!
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LOL! I like femininja, too.
Mark can be an honorary femininja. -
I'm going to have a really vigorous oil based think about femininjas.
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I think the common consensus regarding feminism is extremeism. That fems rally over ridiculous things, that fems don't respect men. So on. I think there are loads of women who for the most part don't really WANT to be equel to men, at least not beyond voting and land ownership and such. I personally am a card-carrying WOMANIST. A seperate brand of feminism, associated with minority women, in support of social change. Founded by Alice Walker. -
It's tough, because I've come across women who say they are a feminist and I want to be treated like a man. But when they are treated like a man, they scream "sexist."
I think some feminist want to be have the same pay as a man, but still want to be treated like a lady. Either way is fine, especially the equal pay part.
timesobserver.blogspot.com-
Being treated like a lady has nothing to do with feminism, it has to do with being polite.
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Being treated like a "lady" involves not making sexist jokes, sexualizing womens bodies,and treating women with respect, point to one feminist that does not support that.
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I agree gingerbeer that women should be treated like that. However, if a feminist wants to truly be treated like a man, than she'll have to deal with sexualizing women's bodies and sexist jokes and she should dish it out by making male sexist jokes and sexualizing men's bodies.
Although, I find it interesting that many women today, especially the young ones, do just what I said and they feel they are equal to men in that regard and don't consider themselves a feminist.
timesobserver.blogspot.com -
OK, how about Wendy McElroy who has a very liberal view regarding pornography?
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"treating women with respect"
Yes, I think we all agree that being treated like a lady - or a gentleman, includes the use of respectful words and behavior.
But what is, and isn't respectful is subjective.
I personally like some crude humor, and don't mind at all if the construction guys whistle at me as I walk by. (Actually, since the baby, I rather enjoy that they do again, as they had stopped, and to me, it meant that I wasn't even pretty enough to be attractive to construction workers )
All that aside - respect is in the eye of beholder - and it extends to much beyond women's rights.
Perhaps when I see women stop treating men like sperm donors, free dinners, and paychecks I will concede the point that respectful behavior is a "woman's issue". -
Perhaps when I see women stop treating men like sperm donors, free dinners, and paychecks I will concede the point that respectful behavior is a "woman's issue".
Splitter!
But you raise a valid point. Some people are just jerks. You can't blame their gender for it, because that is called prejudice.
Similarly, I believe that respect should be earned. You don't deserve respect because you are a woman, just like you don't deserve respect because you are a man. Like anything in life, you deserve it once you have earned it. -
The double standards just bother me, though.
I agree with you on the respect part too, save for the amount of manners/respect that any human is entitled too with or without earning it.
you know, just not being an *sswipe to everyone right off the bat -
That would mean that you automatically treat someone as if they don't deserve respect. It's not the same thing as giving someone a chance to prove that they do deserve respect. I prefer just being neutral. Unless I want something
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Exactly.
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Why am I making all these smileys?
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Because I make you smile, see?
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