Discussions
Americans need for ethnic identity
Posted by Nomadic • 7/03/08 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: american, ethnicity, national, race
Inspired by Villagers Black Bloggers discussion - I want to learn about you, my cousins across the water. From where I am sitting (small village in rural England) I see a constant need for many of the Americans I have come across to assert their identity - their ethnic roots. Whether it be Irish, Native American, Hispanic or African (or Italian, etc etc, I just picked a few, not meant to be exclusive).
In a country where (I understand) you are pumped full of national anthems and stars and stripes from birth, why is "being American" not enough? Is it because you are still a young country and feel like a nation of immigrants?
Surely inclusion and a celebration of diversity is the path to success? (Is New York the only example of this?)
Why the constant need to assert your ethnicity?
I ask this because I don't feel the need and it baffles me.
User Comments
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I actually don't bring up my ethnic background, unless it is in response to a thread like the Black Blogger awards, or if I am talking to someone from Wales or Ireland I will bring up that my ancestors were from there.
To me I think being a human being first and an American second is really all I need to worry about, and I enjoy cultural diversity but when it crosses the line into self segregation it annoys me a bit.
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Why is it neccesary to be "American" at all? How is that any different from being "Black"? If you belive we're all human and nothing else matters, then why is there a need for a second title at all? Could it be that you share some kind of pride for the county you were born in? Then why not show pride for the people of your ancestry?
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I don't know.
Beyond the interest in my own heritage, I don't really claim any ethnicity or origin. I don't really think about it
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I don't have that need, but I imagine the people that do, they are just looking for something to contribute to the discovery of their own personal identity in general. -
I guess for the same reason people in England define themselves as brummie, scouse, as Geordie, as a cockney, etc etc. -
Great guys. But I want to talk about the people WHO DO feel then need. Tell me about them. Why?
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I answered that.
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But why would it be any different than someone in England who describes themself as brummie?
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I had a neighbor who seemed obsessed with pointing out that she was Hispanic in ever conversation. She was born and raised here and didn't speak a lick of Spanish, yet she was convinced that she was as persecuted and downtrodden as the illegals here because of it.
Funny thing is, we lived in a very nice neighborhood and she was driving a brand new car, had a great job and a lot of friends of all races. We treated her well, and never thought of her as the "Mexican" next door.
When I asked her if she had ever been verbally or phsyically assaulted because of being Hispanic, she said no>
I think sometimes they cling to it because they enjoy the victim mentality. -
I tell you why I let people know I am a GEordie, because I AM!
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@jafabrit. It is more like me calling myself a brummie despite being born and raised in Cornwall, because my great great grandparents were from birmingham.
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Yes, but not saying they are italian, they are saying they are italian american and makes a statement about who they are.
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Nope. Got no real interest in my specific ancestral groupings. I think it's all pretty muddled anyway. (Actually, I'm part elf on my father's side.) I'm just me. (Sorry ladies, I'm the only one.)-
I hope no one asks what part of you is "elven"
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Part Elf, eh? That would explain a few things.
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Is that some kind of specieist slur?
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specieist slur - say that three times fast
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Thanks Nomadic - I agree that there are man Americans that feel the need - I am not quite sure why - it might go back to "feeling stronger" when yo uare part of a group - or "strenght in numbers" tye of concept. But I am an American - proud to be one. And your "fill in the blanks" mean nothing to me!
I was going to do the top 1100 White bogs, the top 1100 hispanic blogs, the top 1100 British Blogs and the top 1100 blogs that are of unknown ethnicity and then decided it was as stupid as the top "black blogs" and for what it is worth - my blog is black and white with some shades of gray - so I guess I am the everything blog - laughs...-
And what of those Americans with strong social and cultural ties to their heritage and it defines who they are and how they live their lives? Native Americans have a whole culture that is not the same as Italian American, IRish American, Greek American and each of those cultures have added to the beauty of what America is (its food, music, architecture, language etc).
People in the UK are no different, only they describe themselves as Welsh or Cornish, or use terms as brummie etc, and those define who those people are within a country. -
Oddly, my blogs might fit into all of those classifications.
My Irish ancestors, quite a few of them, came from the coast of Ireland near where the Armada went down - the Moors had been running Spain not too long before that - and the Moors, of course, come from Africa, where they had opportunity to enrich their gene pool from the more central parts of Africa.
That's all speculative, of course: my family records don't go back that far.
Then, there's discussion brewing that the current 'ethnic groups' aren't as permanent a feature of humanity as we thought.
The outrage at the Kennewick skull reconstruction (he looks a great deal like actor Patrick Stewart) tells me that the "races" we know today probably aren't quite as clear-cut and permanent as the nineteenth century thought they were.
Still, I think it's okay to be interested in your own ancestry. -
@jafa - see my response above and my question to norski on whether we should let our heritage define how we are?
Please note - I have no strong views on this - because of who I am - but I AM interested in hearing your views.
Nomadic (in every sense)
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Since about 1967, there's been precious little 'pumped full of stars and stripes' in the America I live in.
Addressing your question: As for me, 'being American' is enough for having a national identity. It has nothing to do with ethnicity. If there were Martians, there would be some very odd-looking Americans by now.
On the other hand, I'm interested in who my ancestors are, too. I'm descended from people who built some of the best wooden ocean-going ships in the world, and from the people who taught Europe to read and write, after Rome went into receivership. (Oversimplification, I know!)
Okay, so we conducted routine human sacrifice, and used skulls as drinking bowls: hey, nobody's perfect!
I think it's healthy for people to be interested in (not obsessed with) their roots (tubers, in my case). Our ancestors don't determine what and who we are, but I think that they have some influence. (This is trivial, but I'm prone to sunburn, and unusually susceptible to malaria - an ancestral legacy.)
I married a woman with Dutch/German ancestry, so the next generation in this family is 'northwestern European' in terms of ethnicity. That would make us Celts, more or less - and two of the kids look the part. -
@Benny. Interested in the "feeling stronger...part of a group thing"....isn't this like tribalism? At what stage does a pride in an identity tip over the edge and become nasty?
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I never said it was a good thing - just a "thing"
I belong to the tribe of the Human race - sub tribe - American.
That is it. I am not black/white/jewish/italian (though many have claimed I am from another world) -
"At what stage does a pride in an identity tip over the edge and become nasty?"
I'd say when people start getting nasty. About their ancestors, how big the fins on their cars are, or what sort of operating system their computer uses.
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@ norski. There has been a huge increase in people researching their ancestry in Britain in the last couple of years......(so maybe it is contageous). I question why we feel the need to do this. Sure it is interesting - but should we let our heritage define how we are today?
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I don't think that we let as much as choose to let or accept what define us. I was born in England, raised in England, but my nature, my life experiences, my tastes, my education, are defined by where my family was born, how I was raised etc etc.
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@jafabrit. Interesting. Because of my own life experiences etc I would say that where my family was born has no significance (largely because I DONT KNOW where they were born!). I guess a range of things define me. It will be different for each individual, but what I am interested in is why, in the USA heritage plays a large part in the defining process. Or am I just imagining it?
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Good heavens.
"...should we let our heritage define how we are today?"
I'm not defined by my heritage. I haven't been linked to a single instance of human sacrifice, and you won't find any repurposed skulls in my home.
But, I'm still interested in who my ancestors are.
I'll turn this around, just for the sake of clarification:
Do you have to remain ignorant of who your forebears are, in order to make your own decisions?
As for me, "defining who I am" has never been particularly hard: regardless of what particular bloodthirsty savages, world-class mariners, contemplative mystics, and sweaty peasants are swimming around in my gene pool.
I have a unique set of qualities, and have made a unique sequence of decisions as to what to do with those qualities. That's who I am today.
Maybe others don't, or can't, do this, but I doubt it. -
Nomadic,
"Or am I just imagining it?" - depends on who you're looking at.
Some people do seem to be nothing except a walking, talking, extension of the pictures on the wall.
Others (I'm exposing a biased observation of my own) seem to be so justifiably insecure about their own worth that they fall back on ethnic identity as a sort of crutch. Please note: I don't see any one ethnic group as having a monopoly on this.
Still others - the vast majority of people I know - are aware of who their ancestors are, at least a generation or so back, interested in their own genealogy, but get their identity from what they do, where they live, and what they're interested in.
Sometimes, even what sports team they support. -
Well both my children were born in America and while they don't go around saying "hey I am turkish-english-american" anymore than I go around saying "hey I am a Geordie", people do ask and that is how they identify themselves. They both have strong family ties to Turkey, and there is strong cultural influence at home (food,music and art etc). It is part of who they are, not necessarily I NEED for that identity, that is just part of who they are and lets others get a sense of who they are too. I don't see it as a bad thing, just as a way of describing who you are.
Great conversation you started Nomadic.
As they say up north, cheers pet. -
"Because of my own life experiences etc I would say that where my family was born has no significance (largely because I DONT KNOW where they were born!)"
In this country for many where their ancestors came from does play a role in their family traditions (holidays, culinary etc) because those cultural habits/traditions are passed down from one generation to the next and define them. You sit and talk to a group of AMericans they all have different traditions for the same holiday because of where their ancestors came from.
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I'll admit, some of us may be a tad bitter. And it really depends on how you grew up. I was raised in several different environments. I came up from the Oakland, CA ghetto before my father's business took off. Where white people who came there looked down on me. I was once told by a white girl who was around 10 (old enough to know better) that I was black because I was dirty, and needed a bath. I was 5 at the time. Then we moved to the burbs when we had more money, where the white neighbors immediately excluded us from activities and acted as though we were aliens. When I was in high suddenly it was "cool" to be black. Through the ups and downs of being "black" in America, it's hard to define yourself within the black community. If your ghetto, your trash. If your wealthy, your boujou. So when black people define themselves within their community it's to gain strength and confidence in a world where they are judged at every turn (from white people and blak people). If your a black poet, you gravitate towards other black poets where you know you'll feel welcomed. If your a black writer, you bond with other black writers. Black people SHOULD be united, just like the world should be united...but that's just not the case. The best we can hope for is to feel ok with whatever it is we do by building small communities. Severaly of these communities are present in US society. They can be negetive, like the KKK or they can be positive like CodePink (women against war). Be that as it may, slowly these kinds of groups mat seem like a way to further segregate us, but my opinion is the more we all feel comfortable in our own skin the more likely we are to love on another no matter race, religion, creed, gender or hair type. Ask any one on that website Village was promoting, I bet they have no problems with anyone. They just like to share news, stories and thoughts with the people who understand them the best. I don't see this as a bad thing.
sorry for the sp errors, i'm typing typng fast and at work.
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I don't blame you one bit for being bitter. Your words of understanding and hope inspire me.
If I knew a bunch of people had sent millions of people from all over my continent on ships, in chains, to another continent to work as slaves, whipped, separated from family and nation, and generally treated like animals, I would be pi$$ed beyond anything I can imagine. I would vow revenge. I can see how that could turn to bitter, when the world isn't exactly accommodating to correcting damage from those crimes.
I'd like to see white and black people talking about those times, those crimes, and what we can do now to right those wrongs. I am amazed when black people say we need to just move on. If that works, great. I tend to think we still have a lot of amends to make among ourselves, before we have any hope of being moral nation.
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I am an American with strong ties to my ethnic identity. The flags across the top of my blog are an expression of this.
I am both proud and self conscious of my heritage.
To me, ethnic identity is an extension of family. I think the drive is primal, a basic level of US vs. THEM, originally evolved for resource competition.
For me, the main drive is to know who 'we' are, so we can work together on building our world. That is my basic drive. It has been that way since I was a little childrens.
I find guidance and inspiration by learning about the lives, trials, tribulations, and triumphs of my forebears and the cultures they came from.
I feel that 'we' have been overrun by the mass of humanity generated by worldwide population explosion. I have to remind myself that I am among the people overrunning the world; the world is no more mine than anyone else's. I need to know who 'we' are, because diverse culture holds values contrary to those that come naturally to me. By seeing the people I came from, I can see how my instincts are consistent with theirs more than the average instincts of a diverse culture. In other words, I find affirmation and support by knowing who my people are and how I am like them.
I love all my brothers and sisters in humanity, not just those I am close to. I love that in spite of our differences, there is a certain core of us that is the same in all people, maybe even all animals. I love that people from all over the world can mix, and I love noticing our cultural differences.-
That is awesome.
My fear is that the cultural differences will all melt away and we'll be left with a boring one world culture someday. -
@offended. I kind of agree with you (she says quivering on the fence on which she is sat). As a small example I have many connections with South Africa and I remember when Madiba came to power (ok we are going back a bit) and the first fairly elected SA parliament met, I felt sad that so many of them had dropped their traditional attire and doned suits and ties. However there is also an argument that preserving a traditional culture just for the sake of it stunts it's development.
I don't think we celebrate diversity, nor see it as a strength, and for many of us who are marginalised we feel assimilation means becoming like those that oppress us in order to conquer them. I know many women for example who think in order to get on in business they have to become like men. Not so. To be truely assertive it is perfectly possible to retain your feminity...
Have I lost the thread?
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@lotusb - thank you for your eloquent (and not obviously rushed) words. I like your point when "we all feel comfortable in our own skin the more likely we are to love on another no matter race, religion, creed, gender or hair type". Is this perhaps then about NOT feeling comfortable in our own skins, or with ourselves, with other aspects of our identity that makes us insecure? Is there a discussion to be had too about the value some societies put on beauty and physical image?
@Norski. Please note, that I am posing questions to inspire debate, they do not necessarily reflect how I feel. I am also not professing any morale high ground because I don't feel my ancestry doesn't define me = just exploring, please don't take offence.-
There is definitely an element of cosmestic preference in America. I blogged about a magazine cover that prooves this perfectly. Hayden Pennatier (i can't spell her name, the girl on Heros) was on the cover of Teen Vogue, the gorgeous blone hair, blue eyed actress stood smiling with the caption beside her reading: "All-American Beauty". Now that is true. She's American, and yes she's beautiful. But this is a magazine that is targeting girls between the ages of 13-20, impressionable girls struggling to find out who they are. This tells them that if they aren't skinny, blone and white with blue eyes, they aren't the typical American and they aren't what America thinks is beautiful. This is a silent message that makes people grow up feeling like since America won't accept them, then they should gravitate towards those that do, usually that's the people who look like them. See for yourself:
lotusb.blogspot.com/2008/05/american-fuckery.html -
Nomadic,
I guessed that was the case. Offense? No.
I think I know what you're referring to. About 16 minutes ago, I posted:
"I'll turn this around, just for the sake of clarification:
Do you have to remain ignorant of who your forebears are, in order to make your own decisions?"
I meant that literally: "for the sake of clarification."
It seemed to me that an assertion was being made, or implied, that knowledge of ancestry, or interest in one's own ancestry, tied an individual to an identity created by that ancestry.
Some people do seem to believe that. (More recently, I posted, "Others (I'm exposing a biased observation of my own) seem to be so justifiably insecure about their own worth that they fall back on ethnic identity as a sort of crutch. Please note: I don't see any one ethnic group as having a monopoly on this.")
Offended, no.
Desiring to clarify what we're talking about, and help determine whether our nature is determined by who our ancestors were: definitely yes.
My position, in brief, is: individuals decide who they are. Their decisions are influenced, but not determined, by what their ancestors handed off to them.
Thinking of the Olympics here: if someone takes after ancestors who were short of arm and leg, and put on muscle mass easily, odds are that this person won't be a marathon runner. Weight lifter, maybe. Or, maybe the best photographer in Topeka, Kansas.
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I know where you are going. I am into genealogy. I care where my family comes from for the history not the "race." I find it interesting and if I have to read about my family in history books I may as well find out about them and where they come from. I am Native American a descendant of Pocahontas on the Bowling side of my family. I hear they stem from nobility the Bowlings not Pocahontas. One of my ancestors A.J. Mullins created the Golden Delicious Apple and sold the orchard now everyone eats them. On my grams side we are English stemming from nobility. I don't recall the original last name but the name is Salisbury and there are many variations of the name. For me it is purely a history thing. I would not get involved with history if I couldn't do genealogy.-
I'm exposing my ignorance here:
Pocahontas is Algonquian? (I know - that doesn't narrow it down much).
That's rather eastward of the Oglala connection I've got (about one branch over).
And I think I understand "it is purely a history thing." For me, it's sort of like catching up on the story line of a serial I dropped into the middle of. -
@Shiley - I understand it is fascinating. As an aside I recently did research on a 300 year old cottage I was living in. I was obsessed and spent many hours at the public records office. I am guessing it is the same bug, and not about defining at all.....
@Norski - I think you were on to something with the sports teams. maybe it is about a need to identify with others. Is that a self esteem issue? Dunno. -
I can't remember what tribe she is from but my family has Sioux connections too. pocahontas.morenus.org/poca_gen.html
There are other sites that go into who her decendants are this one was a quick look up without thinking thing. -
One thing that I really love about English nobility is they keep the family charts. My Salisbury family is tracked back 1000 years because of this to Germany. I don't know how they are able to keep those records but think of the technology that didn't exist 1000 years ago.
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Why does it even have to be about self esteem though? It is just a descriptor of one's identity, just like an when a person states they are Texas.
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Nomadic,
Interesting thread. As you know, traveling in multiple countries and spending time in other cultures changes your outlook on your own country. I've traveled to some awesome places and spent quite a bit of time with some great people. As an American, it changed the way I thought about my own country and I think, positively affected the way I treat other people and interact with them regardless of their ethnicity.
I'm not really sure why people adhere and make attempts to reference their lineage so much here in the US. I often wonder about that myself. Isn't it good enough to just call yourself an American? Why the attempt to categorize (and at times, divide) it any further?
To quote a famous philosopher, Popeye said, "I yam who I yam." Yes, heritage and lineage is interesting, but I don't feel the need to call myself anything more than an American. I was born overseas (Germany, apparently have Irish and Scottish descendants along with a mish-mash of others in there as well. Does it really make a difference? Not in my opinion. I should be treated the same as anyone else. I don't change the way I interact or treat others based on their ethnicity.
Anyhow, it's an interesting subject. -
My ancestors are from Quarkdoodle. I am deeply interested in quarkdoodlians, especially the famous quarkdoodlian headcheese and the quarkdoodlian flag of a three headed goat. It is very hard to find the valley of Quarkdoodle. It is not far from where the piney coned tree grows next to the big green lake where the grey alligator lives.
It is terrible that Quarkdoodle day, January 15, has not appeared in Chase's Calendar of Annual Events, nor is it acknowledged in the masonic calendar.
I am quite proud to be a Quarkdoodlian. I even have a tattoo in honor of quarks our national animal which says up, down, left, right, or charmed. I even drink gooseberry juice on thursday.
A proud American.-
Now you are just being silly
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Have those of you in Europe noticed the reemergence of the region, regional identities, and regional dialects over the past decade or so? Some of this feeds into a pro European Union attitude and some of it has the opposite effect. Relevance? I'm not sure, but since you bring up the issue of other identities, I thought I'd bring it up. Seems to me that people are more or less the same everywhere, even if the broader social, cultural, and political configurations develop differently, so a comparative angle might be useful.
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Good point Mark. It's true. Funded by the EU (like the development of the Welsh language). This may be a cunning plan to distract us from the fact that we are now just one big tribe.
Question...should us Nomads develop a strong identity of our own? Would that make me feel more comfortable with myself? -
Sure, why not? There are a whole bunch of nomads out there. One reason my wife and I like DC, I think, is that being part of a bilingual and bicultural family is perfectly normal here. Okay, so that doesn't make us all a tribe, but it's something.
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I've noticed that people in the UK are starting to develop a common accent, not home counties English, more like Radio1 English, certainly the regional differences seem to be less pronounced which is the opposite of what you're asking.
Elsewhere when we've been travelling I get the feeling that most people in the Benelux, Germany, France and Spain don't really care one way or the other. Even when we were in the Basque country I didn't hear the Basque tongue being spoken, and in Bilbao the Castillian they speak seems very pure, it's actually lovely to listen to.
Here in Andalucia people seem overall very happy to be part of Spain, of course the people in Sevilla think Madrid should be knocked off it's perch as the nation's capital but this is just friendly rivalry between two big cities. Couldn't tell you about Catalonia except that every other night on the news they report about something to do with Catalan nationalists doing something. -
Agree that why I like living around Cambridge too. Transient, multicultural and international community (smart too). Perhaps a bit snooty but.
Anyway. I have monopolised the race and identity argument all evening, I bid you all farewell I am off to bed - having first checked on my part African/part Nomadic children (I hope they haven't wandered off).
Love and Peace
Nomadic xxxxx -
@carl - I beg to differ on Basques taking their ethnicity seriously....
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I didn't say the Basques don't take their ethnicity seriously, I'm saying that while in the Basque area I very rarely hear the Basque language being spoken, and considering 20-30% of the population is supposed to use it as their mother tongue that seems unusual, the vast majority of people I heard talking amongst themselves were speaking a Castillian
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Wow. Things have changed. I haven't been in that way in about 15 years. Do you think loss of Basque language a step forward? Maybe just a step, what.
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I think the Basque language is taking it's rightful place as the cultural language of the Basques, but for day to day activities Castillian is obviously the language most would find useful.
Edit, within a single Europe I think there is a place for minority cultures to carve out their own state, and in that sense I think the EU has been a force for good. By encouraging minorities to see themselves as having a culture or language worth protecting I think many of the age-old disputes over sovereignty might just disappear. If Brussels was to replace London, Paris, or Madrid as the central government I think states such as Scotland, Catalonia, Corsica would probably drop their independence talk within a generation or two.
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PS - And thank you all for your contributions.....N
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Most of the people I talk to about their heritage don't seem to feel a cultural pull, leaning or tie to the country of their ancestory. I, on the otherhand, feel a strong connection with England (Father's grandparents native country) and Italy (Mother's parents native country). I believe the culture of these two countries is in my blood. I've been to both countries a couple of times, and I feel a kinship.-
I should add that my nationality and cultural ancestry don't lessen my pride in being an American.
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You do realize I am running on the ethnicity does not matter ticket!
EDNMT - Come on now - Say it with Me!-
You've got my vote Benny, haha!
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The ego has the need for patriotic nationality. -
Part of the reason may be because immigration is so prevalent in America, even today. Plus many of us are very few generations removed from the "old country," and have lived, ot at least had close relatives who have lived in ethnic enclaves. My grandfather was born in Italy, and I grew up in a neighborhood of people mainly from Italy.-
One of the things I have always found interesting in the several states I have lived is how the immigrants shaped the flavour of the state (such as language,dialect, food, architecture, music etc). That is what makes this country so dynamic and interesting.
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For the most part I tend to leave my ethnicity out of the equation.
But find it unfortunate that often when talking to others about the various problems of society in general that often ethnicity cited as a factor to ills of society, and that due my Caucasoid appearance I could not possibly to comprehend the true depth of minority issues.
So quite often in an attempt to steer the conversation back to point, and maybe in my own defense I find myself clarifying my ,Roma, heritage.-
Hey raven, that's cool - it is just you gently demonstrating you have an empathy. No harm.
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