Discussions
An eye for an eye, Cruel or just?
Posted by csiunatc • 2/19/09 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: islamic justice
www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/02/19/acid.attack.victim/index.html?eref=rss_t...
..."Bahrami is blind, the victim of an acid attack by a spurned suitor.
If she gets her way, her attacker will suffer the same fate. The 31-year-old Iranian is demanding the ancient punishment of "an eye for an eye," and, in accordance with Islamic law, she wants to blind Majid Movahedi, the man who blinded her."
Civil rights movements are protesting the cruelty of the punishmen that could be carried out within weeks.
I'm not so sure, there is a certain satisfaction in a punishment matching the crime.
User Comments
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I'm sure there's also a certain satisfaction to rape, but that doesn't make it right.-
I think in the case of rape they should be castrated, not raped back. -
You missed my point.
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@ avogana, great point!
@ voodookobra - what is your point? -
As I read it, it may be satisfying to do something but that doesn't make it the right thing to do.
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it's a tough moral question
personally, i think life in prison is sufficient -
I wonder if the civil rights movements protest when the victims around the world get attacked in the first place?
It seems we care more about the persons rights who did the crime. It should be the other way around. Why are we getting soft on criminals? At least we still have the death penalty here. They even got rid of that in places around the world. It makes no sense to care for the attacker more. Nut job way of thinking. -
Can't we talk about Italian food instead?
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I love Italian food. I am Italian though
Meatball pizza is the best if anyone wants to know. -
I dunno... send in Hillary! I'm sure Iranians are for "change we can believe in!"
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Oooh, tough call. It's natural to want equal revenge, and sometimes, the one who caused the injury doesn't suffer enough by simply sitting in a cell. Since I'm totally against any form of murder (capital punishment included), I don't know what to say. But in this case, since taking his life isn't involved, go ahead and blind him. Seems a little bit like playing God, though. -
Two wrongs never make a right. -
An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind.... Mahatma Gandhi
I think the world is blind enough without some of us wanting to add more blindness to the plate.
What a wicked thing to do to someone though all because you can't bend them to your will.
When people do things like this, they don't just punish the person but their families who may depend on that person for financial support. Many of these women are single but work full time to bring home extra money to help support their families. Now her family will have to support her possibly for the rest of her life and who will marry her now, very hard to find any man would would.-
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Precisely. -
Very well said.
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Yes. And the idea of punishment isn't about getting even. It's about an attempt to deter, hopefully to bring a reconsideration of one's position, and to protect a society.
The original Torah version of the lex talonis has certainly been hotly debated by Rabbis. Today, the tendency is to treat the issue as monetary compensation. That may seem watered down to some readers of an eye-for-an-eye, but when it comes down to the actual result, may be more effective.
Of course, there are those individuals who are completely hardened, for whom nothing but death can be a possible solution because they have determined to make it so. We have a lot of these in California at Pelican Bay.
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I'm not a big believer in revenge as a form of justice. And as a policy, in a perverse way, it seems to me to condone the violence rather than draw lines of what is acceptable/set examples for acceptable behavior.-
Well stated. -
Maybe, but don't you ever wonder if human beings are simply violent by nature? Whether laws are there or not, people are still going to kill people. Whether it be for war, jealousy, hatred or psychiatric. It's going to be there.
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I like to think our ability to reason and plan our justice system accordingly gives us the ability to choose to rise above that potential, though.
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Unfortunately though, not everyone IS capable of reasoning. Or maybe they are, but choose not to. It sucks, but that's how it is. Not to mention people who are (violently) mentally ill or "retarded" (not trying to be funny with the word), they don't have the capability to understand. But I'm sure that would be a different discussion on how to handle that entirely.
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I think that would be a different discussion, since individual behavior and choice is different from a legally-approved eye-for-an-eye policy.
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sure, but that doesn't mean we should cater to it, encourage it or sanction it.
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I don't blame her for being so angry, she is blinded for life and I am sure there are some pretty ugly scars too. But she won't get the satisfaction she is looking for if they did blind him too, she never will...
Personally I feel he should be put on a special work program (working from his jail cell)that takes most of the money he makes and use it to pay for all her medical needs and anything else she needs for a lifetime.
No one else should have to pay for what he did including her! He won't be able to have her... yet he will still be required to meet her financial needs and also will be put away to prevent him from doing this to someone else. -
If she is willing to administer the same horrendous punishment that had been administered to her, then isn't she just as abhorrent as he is?
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Exactly. It's like the death penalty--killing a person because he/she killed someone. Makes no sense to me.
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The only time I can fully understand the need to kill someone who has committed violent crimes is if they are so far beyond the scope of normalcy, and cannot be "rehabilitated" and pose a serious threat to society and everyone in it.
At that point, I say be done with it. -
I know there are some cases when it seems to be justified and perhaps it is--I don't know--even in those cases, I just don't believe in capital punishment. I think it's just barbaric.
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I'd actually think of it more as a necessity than a justification. Hitler, for example, Pol pot just to name one...
People who are really, truly a dangerous person and have essentially become a waste of space. -
Okay--you got me on board there. Absolutely Hitler deserves to die. But I really hate the idea of capital punishment.
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There are a lot of people who deserve to die, but as a society do we want a justice system based on an emotional need for revenge or one that is reasoned. Blinding him may feel good but it wont cover the bills, the expenses, the training she could get. She deserves better, and it should come with a society that supports her long term needs and makes sure that those who commit these kinds of crimes will face a lifetime of financial consequences and incarceration.
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jafabrit--thank you--you summed up my feelings on this exactly.
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Yes she deserves to be taken care of and nurtured after all she is the victim
and he should wake up everyday to a picture of her face to remind him of his beastly act
as a very small part of his punishment and maybe by watching her face everyday, it will slowly sink into his cro-magnon type pea brain and he will then come to realize his error and repent. -
Perhaps I worded that incorrectly. I didn't mean to imply they deserved to die, but rather it is necessary for them to die for the safety of others in society.
I take everything back to a tribal level to understand if I'm being emotional or reasonable. If someone in a tribe behaved in a way that was both brutal and dangerous to individuals and the tribe as a whole (like say, a small tribal Hitler) the reason for death (or even banishment which often times equates death) comes around not out of revenge, but because you can't rightfully leave them to wander around harming the tribe - and supporting such a person with food and supplies who cannot contribute to the tribe to make up for the use of supplies is also a danger to the tribe. When they use up valuable resources that can't be made up, their survival is endangered.
Ergo, they gotta go. -
For some reason I still prefer to watch them rot away in prison
but maybe I am being vengeful. lmao
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What's also rather disturbing is that if you watch the videos her family is calling for this punishment
on her behalf.-
How is that disturbing? I would think it's very normal. During the initial pain and dealing with something so horrific happening to a loved one, your initial and instinctual reaction is to come to their defense and want justice. If someone hurt my mom, or one of my brothers, even my boyfriend and friends the first thing I'd want is some type of retaliation against the person. People say and do really stupid things when VERY angry and hurt, it's just a natural reaction.
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MarinaRey.... I disagree I believe it is ABNORMAL.
Of course REVENGE is a most tricky temptation, a temptation that is soooo easy to fall into
and it is a sign of weakness when we lend a hand to it but that is my opinion and I am sure others my differ and/or disagree. -
So basically what you're saying is that if you had a sister and some guy cut her eyes out with oh I don't know, let's say a blunt pocket knife and did it while she was fully awake, aware and able to feel it, you'd be ok with that? You wouldn't initially be infuriated and angry and have an instant of wanting ANY kind of justice for her? Even revenge? I would say most people who care about someone would feel a lot like these people do. I know I would. Of course in time you learn to mourn and accept it, and you start to think normally again, but most people always have some bad reaction at first. There is always a need for justice, and for some, revenge. I never said it was always right, but basically you're completely discrediting natural reactions to having a sense of wanting to protect and rectify a situation in the event of a serious injury to a loved one.
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@MarinaRey....?????? where did you get all that in what I've said?????
Listen I have already weighed all possible answers, cenarios, revenge, anger, justice
and what ever else you want to throw into the pie
and I have made my own decision, whether you agree with them or not
and I am fine with the decision I made based on a logical, clear mind that is harboring no lower forms of abnormality or mental illness. -
I don't think I got my point out very clearly. My point is that you're telling me that wanting and calling for equal revenge is ABNORMAL (am I right?). That this girl's family wanting him blinded as he blinded her is abnormal. I'm wondering, that if this is YOUR SISTER, would you not feel as this family feels? Maybe ACTING on this revenge is abnormal and showing weakness according to our society and culture, but feeling these things and wanting them are not. On a side note, these people also live in a completely different culture than us. What they see is normal may not be the same. Sorry if I wasn't to clear about it, but that's what I intended to prove. I see nothing abnormal about this family's behavior.
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MarinaRey....No further comment.
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First, I think it should depend on if the injury was the intended point of the crime or if it was an accidental side effect of the crime. In this case I'd say it was intended so I think something should be done to make him experience what he has done to her. However, permanently blinding him would mean he can't work for income. The blind experience should be temporary for him and at least half his income if not more should go to her for the rest of his life.
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It is just but cruel -
IMO two wrongs never make a right and violence only begets more violence. IMO it's unlikely that this rape victim has received any therapeutic counseling and that's sad. What's even sadder still is that she's prepared to have this act of violence (vengeance) on her soul. I believe that if this woman gets her way now she will live to regret stooping to the level of retaliating in this way because it will have a lasting affect on her psychologically, and create a karmic burden. Do I believe in this so-called "justification"? No way - no how. IMO what is proposed is barbaric and unconscionable.
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That's what I think too.
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I agree Timethief.....I don't live in darkness anymore...You only hurt yourself by retaliation and revenge. I live with peace. -
@mtyler77 and lordiwanttobewhole
In my own life I too have learned to forgive, to heal and to live in peace. Such a journey is very difficult and I'm certainly not minimizing it, but reaching the destination of letting go of bitterness and a desire for revenge frees us from the continuous poisoning of the mind, the body and the soul, which I believe affects us in this life and in lives to come. With the support of qualified professionals we can become our own healers and lead happy and healthy lives after horrific traumatic events. When one has been victimized eventually they are faced with this question: Do you value vengeance more than you value your "self"? -
@timethief and lordiwanttobewhoel--my views on forgiveness are currently evolving (in a good way, I think) but I do agree that forgiveness is far more important for the forgiver than the forgivee. Being trapped in a world where you are not able to forgive those who wronged you is a prison in and of itself--and it actually gives the person who wrong you more power. My recent path of forgiveness has been really freeing for me. It's all come about because of writing my memoir. It's been such a hard, important, amazing journey.
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People should feel the same pain they inflict.
Well right NOW that is justice in my point of view. -
I hope he gets what's coming to him.
I can't believe some of the responses here. One is talking about rape (she was not raped, was she?)
Another is talking about rash decisions. Since this happened a few years back, this woman's decision isn't rash.
The man stalked her for two years, made threats against her, and when he couldn't have what he wanted, he scarred her for life with acid... and some are suggesting she just let it go? Come back and post when something like this has happened to you, so we can see if you still feel the same way. -
Did nobody listen to Ghandi?
Acting out in revenge is never a wise thing to do, it may sound tempting but what would you really achieve?
In doing this she is becoming as bad as the person who did it to her in the first place, it's just a vicious cycle. -
Punishment would be a bigger deterrent to these kinds of acts if it was comparable to the crime. The problem is, justice systems are not perfect and people are sometimes found guilty of crimes they didn't commit. Once a punishment like this is inflicted, there's no way to undo it.-
"The problem is, justice systems are not perfect and people are sometimes found guilty of crimes they didn't commit"
This is exactly the problem with the death penalty. Since DNA testing began, well over 100 prisoners who were sitting on *death row* have been released because they were found innocent after their DNA was tested. And this includes people who confessed to the crime, with eye witnesses, and other (seemingly) compelling evidence.
It makes you wonder how many innocent people have been put to death--after all, they haven't (yet) tested for mistakes that might have been made. -
I agree with you.
My father went to prison when I was 8 years old. He was convicted of three counts of conspiracy, felony murder, and arson. The prosecutor wanted the death penalty, the jury gave him life in prison. The judge reduced that sentence to 75 years. The prosecutor appealed and under mandatory sentencing laws in place at the time, the life sentence was restored. Since then, the Supreme court has found that mandatory sentencing minimums are unconstitutional, but did not make this ruling retroactive.
The men my father was accused of conspiring with never went to prison. One had a mistrial and was deported. The other cut a deal and was deported. Both had long criminal records and long associations with the Korean Mob. My father was a small business man with no criminal record. The Chicago police department has a long history of prisoner brutality and mistreatment. They interrogated my father, an immigrant who little understanding of English and zero understanding of the criminal laws of the US for over 24 hours without break until they managed to extract a "confession." He had no money for an attorney and was appointed a public defender for the duration of his trial.
My father has had an appeal for clemency on the desk of the governor of Illinois for the past two administrations: George Ryan went to prison and Blagoevich was run out of office. More than corrupt governors though, he has little hope of having his sentence reduced because of politicians desire to appear "tough on crime."
68% of death penalty cases are overturned or reduced on appeal. That means in 68% of cases, there was improper representation, new evidence, or procedural improprieties. How can we as a society be comfortable that 68% percent of death row inmates were found to have been improperly sentenced. -
Wow, stillthinking--that's a heartbreaking story about your father! And this again highlights the real problems in death penalty cases. I know for certain that there is a lot of corruption in the criminal justice system--I myself have been a victim of such corruption.
I wish your father all the best in his clemency appeal. I really hope the new governor of Illinois can help him. That must have been so incredibly tough on your whole family! -
Wow Stillthinking that is terrible. They not only stole time from your father but also from you
and his loved ones. That is really terrible but yes it does happen and it has happened to a lot
of people, some were forced to sign agreements not to sue once they got out of jail, can you believe that, taking away their rights once again even after they were proven to be innocent. -
This is why I have such issues with people who take an overly simplistic view of the justice system. In our country, you are innocent until proven guilty. Yet, so many people, mostly the poor, uneducated, or of a racial minority, are rammed through the system. It makes me insane when people talk about how criminals have too many rights and that they deserve to be put to death.
Can anyone look at my father's case and say for certain he was involved? I think I need to mention that he was accused of killing 3 firefighters through arson so there was huge political pressure on the DA's office and police dept. to serve up someone's head on a platter.
When the public weighs in on an issue like the death penalty, they don't think about the individual cases. They think about how satisfied they would feel that someone got their just desserts. They don't think about the people they are sentencing to death, they don't think about the families of the convicted.
For my family, it shattered us. I won't go into any more detail here. -
@stillthinking--I can only imagine. My very best wishes to you and your family to resolve this issue.
And know this--MANY cases of mistaken arrest/conviction have occurred when the CJ system hurriedly tried to put an end to a politically charged crime. Which is just shameful--because after all, solving the crime and convicting the TRUE guilty party should be the first objective.
Again, my best to you and your family.
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I'm baffled that that the entire point of 'an eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth' has passed everyone by! It's not about revenge, it isn't saying "if someone take your eye you should take his", it's saying that if someone takes your eye you can't take any more than his. The point of the passage is measured and proportionate response, not vengeance.
I agree with Kobra above, just because it might feel satisfying to exact the same crime on the criminal doesn't mean you should. The state can't condemn an action and then perpetrate it if it wants to maintain any integrity.
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