Discussions
Can God make a mistake?
Posted by diabolicomix • 11/25/08 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: God, philosophy, religion
A lot of people struggle with the idea that a God who is omnipotent and omniscient can allow evil things to happen. Some see this as conclusive evidence that God does not exist, others appeal to the idea that it is free will that necessitates evil. I'm not so sure I find either of these convincing. What do you all think?
User Comments
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Evil is part of the reality. People make mistakes. ..and PEOPLE are responsible for their choices and their deeds.-
I certainly wouldn't say that people are not morally responsible for their own actions. How do you feel about the responsibility a Creator has towards humanity for allowing such a state to persist despite having the ability to stop it.
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@diabolicomix...Great question
I forgive God...if I believed in God...then I can go on with my life.
My other answer would be that God already knows and he/she did it on purpose.
The reason why God did it only he/she knows.
We are just puny mortals...it's none of our God damn business. -
Right! God doesn't make mistakes
hb
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you have some that say god put the mistake there for some reason. either you will seak him out and get a stronger faith, or for someone near you to wise up and learn something.
i can see both sides of the fence here -
Have you read this interesting article written last January?
Free Will: Now You Have It, Now You Don’t
www.nytimes.com/2007/01/02/science/02free.html?ei=5090&pagewanted=all-
That is an interesting article! ...it's just something else that reminds me of the Sumerian tales of gods and goddesses and how we were created to be a slave race.
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Fascinating stuff. How do you feel about free will tt?
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People believe that God makes mistakes more by looking at me than what I believe myself. Is my intersexed condition a "mistake?" Some would say it is. But it has brought many experiences that taught me that I would not have learned otherwise.-
It seems like more often than not it's society that is mistaken.
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It makes sense if a god doesn't exist. -
He made us right? Do you consider us a mistake? Or did he make us this way on purpose?-
Seems like a mistake to me!
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Well imagine if we were perfect. Wouldn't that be a boring life? Only capable of love? Running around naked in the Garden of Eden? Not having anything to work towards? No goals to achieve?
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For any god to make a mistake, that god would have to exist.
Since there is no logical or scientific evidence to support the existence of any god, it is logical to assume that, until such evidence is put forth and validated, gods do not exist.
So, the question becomes, can something that does not exist make a mistake?-
Well let's examine that. If God does not exist, where did the universe come from?
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Is that really the logical assumption? (update: seems like the big cheese beat me to this point)
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MrCheeseburger, If we don't know where the universe came from, does that mean that a god exist?
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No, I'm asking a question. Where did the universe come from?
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I don't think anybody "knows," but the evidence indicates it started with the big bang.
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Universe came from itself..
That's a paradox...
It's been creating and destroying like a oscillator motion.. -
And where did the Big Bang come from?
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"where did the Big Bang come from?"
At the point t=0, we can say that the time dimension has created. So that causality can be mentioned at t=0+dt (after a infinitesimal time). So you cannot ask "why the Big bang happened or where did it came from" at t=0. Bcs causality depends on time and time hasn't been created. Besides Science can't explain before the t=1/100 s.
Anyway to answer the question "where did Big bang come from?", we should first understand the time as a well-defined term. -
@ Mrcheeseburger: the fact that someone cannot explain a phenomenon does not automatically that a god did it. If god exists, where did it come from?
ANY answer you can posit for that question will answer the one about where the universe came from.
@ophase: are you Hindu? your explanation echoes the Hindu concept of Brahma the creator, Vishnu the preserver of life, and Shiva the destroyer operating in a similar cycle. -
HAhahaa
No I am a physicist..
And i know that if the dark matter is gravitino which is the particle responsible of gravitational force, the cosmological theories will be rewritten and there will be a possibility that the universe can collapse itself. This is going to be investigated at LHC Cern for the next year.
I have a great respect for eastern teachings which the whole religion philosophies begins with. So are you Hindu?? -
It's called faith honey !!!!!!
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Yes God can make mistakes
Mutation is a mistake in copying DNA itself... But it seems to us as a miracle -
That's an intersting question. In reality you have to ask yourself how you view God. If you were a firm believer in God (Christian, Catholic, etc.) then the answer would obviously be 'No'. Einstein once said that "God doesn't roll dice", meaning that in his mind all events had predetermined outcomes and there was nothing truly 'random'.
When it comes to polytheism and older mythologies, you often will find one god tricked or another defeated by another god (whether it is in an actual battle or Job, God, & The Devil sort of thing).
My point being it all boils down to perception, culture, and religion.-
Einstein actually said "god does not play dice with the universe," which is here taken out of context and given an unintended meaning. The statement was actually a criticism of Quantum Mechanics, which involves some truly random events. Einstein never accepted quantum theory, hence his remark.
Lest we take his comment to mean Einstein was a god-fearing man, here's another quote, this one in context: "It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called
religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of
the world so far as our science can reveal it." -
Yes, Einstein was an atheist. So was Thomas Edison, but not Nikola Tesla.
People love to quote mine Einstein. -
Einstien was a pantheist. When he spoke of "god," god was being used synonymous to "nature."
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I stand corrected.
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God does not play dice. I believe He is a roulette man.
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He was an atheist in the sense that he did not believe in a personal god though.
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Wow, go figure thinking about where I learned that source from. I always knew Einstein detested Quantum Mechanics. Thanks for the info!
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I'll have to start researching things before I quote them, lol
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if God make a mistake then He not a God-
If god cannot make a mistake then god is not omnipotent.
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Omnipotence (Omni Potens: "all power") is unlimited power -
Which includes the power to make mistakes.
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exactly siralmo, if god "can't" make a mistake, than it is a limit of his, and thus he is not omnipotent.
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@aainnblog: you don't know much about Hindu gods, do you? Ganesha came about at the result of a mistake made by his father. The Greek and Roman gods made their fair share of mistakes, as well.
@morgantj: omnipotence wouldn't seem to rule out making mistakes. Omnipotence doesn't presume perfection, just the power to do anything...including making mistakes and, of course, correcting them later. That is where the christian god seems to fall short...long on mistakes, very short on corrections. -
SweetViolet, I don't think we disagree, if god is omnipotent, then he should have the power to make mistakes. aainnblog basically said, that god can't make mistakes. And my point was that if that were true then god would not be omnipotent since he wouldn't have the power to do something, namely, make mistakes.
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I believe that God create something or do something is not useless.
Imposible make an mistake.
He can be anywhere, even he very close, more close from your hearth. You can feel God when you see his creature. -
@aainnblog, Very well put, I couldn't agree more.
@SweetViolet: You try telling Zeus he's made a mistake! -
@diabolicomix
I have an opening in my calendar at 1:00 this afternoon. Have him here at that time and I'll tell him.
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Now, assuming that there is a god.
First we would have to define what a misstake is on god's level. And since we aren't able to comprehend on that level, we can't determine whether allowing or causing something to happen was a misstake to begin with.
Now looking at the omnipotence,
If he is truly omnipotent, then of course he would have to be able to make misstakes, (otherwise he can't be omnipotent) but he would also be capable of choosing to never make one.
What is interesting is that people always end up in the misstake of Evil being either a definition of god not being omnipotent, or not being benevolent. Which again goes back to the assumption that we are able to understand each and every decision, which since we are not omnipotent, we are by definition not able to understand or judge the decisions of someone that supposedly is.
The whole "God Does not exist or he isn't benevolent because he permits evil" is really a hubris fallacy.-
Very interesting points you make. Perhaps God is in a way limited by His creation.
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I don't see how that would be the case.
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Then I guess I don't understand what you were saying.
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What i am saying in short hand is this.
Humans are not able to understand the universe from gods perspective, therefore we can't define anything that god does as good or evil. What we see as evil, may very well not be from gods perspective. -
I see. But I do not think of good and evil as a question of perspective, rather I feel that they are absolute.
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Good and Evil are not a question of correct perspective...this is true
Only when the Third Eye is open do both become absolute and obsolete.
Only when the Third Eye is open do you have correct positive perspective.
When the Third Eye is open "Duality" of Good & Evil does not exist.
Illusion of duality is slain. It is slain 1 second before resurrection.
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Here is something to consider, the Omnipotence paradox - Could an omnipotent god create a stone so heavy that even he could not lift it?" If so, then it seems that god would cease to be omnipotent; if not, it seems that god was not omnipotent to begin with.
More info -
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omnipotence_paradox-
That "paradox" is a great example of what i said above.
Read through the entire Wikipedia article on it. And you'll see something interesting. The whole argument relies on the ability of the human brain to conceptualize omnipotence at a Godly level.
So until you can prove to me that the human brain is actually capable of understanding a god, this argument fails on its own limitation. -
Until you can prove to me that there is a god for the brain to understand, this argument fails on its own lack of substance.
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Our ability to understand it doesn't create or undo the existence of anything.
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@csiunatc: Our inability to explain aspects of our world does not automatically mean god(s) are responsible. It merely means we do not yet know the answer.
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This paradox arises bcs of the indeterminity of infinity:
Let God's power equivalent to infinity. and let God create a stone for instance twice of God's power; 2 x infinity.
2 x infinity = infinity
So that stone is heavy enough to lift it by God who has the power equivalent to infinity
God can even create a stone heavy as infinity times infinity.
Infinity x infinity = infinity
I think nobody understands me, here is a link;
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indeterminate_form -
@ Csiunatc: You talking in circles. As SweetViolet said: "Our inability to explain aspects of our world does not automatically mean god(s) are responsible. It merely means we do not yet know the answer." -
ophase, so god can't create a stone that he himself cannot lift? He can only create ones he can lift? If so, then he is not omnipotent.
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csiunatc, as far as we know, there is no "it" for us to create or undo the existence of.
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Good point
Yes he can create bcs let
stone= 2 x ∞ = ∞ and God= ∞, if we equal God to the stone then we have ∞ - ∞ indeterminicy here.. -
SwViol,
Exactly, if you go back to where i started. I said.
Assuming that there is a god
Since we can't prove either, the argument would be pointless assuming that he didn't.
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He defines mistakes. -
I think that depends on the kind of god you believe in.
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No god(s) = no mistakes.
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Sure if there was one* ;))
Don't be Questioning god or yer Faith - just Believe or U will get in Trubble!!
Actually it seems to be Man that has made all the Mistakes* + Religion is certainly one of them or at least placing Blind Faith in it the way people do - no excuse for that in this Educated Day + Age*
it's almost Laughable* ;)) Peace* -
Educated or not, people fear the idea of death being the end of their existance. I think that's the number one reason people believe in a religion. They seek personal affirmation that death is not the end of their conscious existance.
I like to think that I will continue to exist through the things that I have accomplished and the lives I have touched.-
Bingo!
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If regret is an admission of a mistake, they yes, God has made mistakes. How do we know? It's written about in at least two places in the Bible.
In Genesis 6:6 it says:
the Lord regretted that He had made man on the earth, and He was grieved in His heart.
In 1 Samuel 15:35 is says:
Even to the day of his death, Samuel never again visited Saul. Samuel mourned for Saul, and the Lord regretted He had made Saul king over Israel.
The common pattern is that God was too much of an optimist. He hoped that men and mankind would do the right thing.-
What about The Flood? Didn't god put a rainbow in the sky as his pledge to not do it again, because he was sorry for doing it?
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The rainbow was a promise not to bring another flood. Nowhere does it say that he was sorry.
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Nowhere does the bible say a lot of things, but it does imply.
If he made a covenant with mankind and all of the beasts to never flood the whole earth again, doesn't it make sense he was sorry for having done it in the first place? A wholly logical interpretation of the behaviour.
Omnipotence, after all, merely means the power to do anything, including the power to make a mistake. If an omnipotent being couldn't make a mistake, then it wouldn't be omnipotent, would it?
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God knows the beginning from the end; He does NOT live in "time" Time was created for man. God knew that man would sin and God knew that Saul would fail as king...in each of those cases HE had prepared in advance the remedy...
God cannot make a mistake and God cannont lie.
A book I just finished reading that deals with some of these issues is "The Shack"....-
If god can't make a mistake then he's not omnipotent.
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God sure make mistakes, as many as you do, you created Him/Her. -
To say that God knew that Saul would fail in the way that he did is to imply that the Bible is not accurate. God did regret picking Saul. An alternate translation of the original text would be he "repented". You can't repent of something is you knew it would happen. So either the Bible is wrong and God knew the future or the Bible is correct and God made a mistake with Saul.
God did not "know" that man would sin. Nowhere in the Bible or Torah does it say that. There are many people trying to rationalize what God did as recorded in the Bible. We want to believe that God is Love, but he has a real personality and can not be put in any box, even the box of Love.
God would rather you loved him for who he really is and not who you want him to be. -
Who is he?
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the argument of the omnipotence paradox ignores one really important issue.
the laws of gravity are within the realm of omnipotence!
because we cannot understand infinity there is no formula to valuate the influence of gravity ( a finite law) to infinite power. logic dictates that any finite value, law, or force becomes 0 when faced with infinity. so by our methods the omnipotence paradox cannot even exist, it is faulty logic
most people fail to understand that even logic is based on rules that may not exist elsewhere. physics is an understanding of the rules. not the establishment of how everything must be.
To a color blind person- their perception is that some colors do not exist! only through the perception of others can they "possibly" be convinced that those colors exist.
accepted perception is the problem.
Watch the matrix. It addresses some interesting ideas related to this.
How can you possibly "perceive" a reality if you accept the perception that you currently have? the only way to perceive reality is to choose to reject accepted perception and choose reality- so you must perceive beyond perception.
as I always say.
perception- no matter how real is no substitution for reality.
so if you accept that there is no God based on your current accepted perception then there is less than a 0001% chance that you will ever perceive differently. If - however you choose to seek past accepted perception and search beyond- you may end up perceiving something entirely different and unexplainable, then you have something to discover! -
If God make a mistake .. then we are all a part of mistake's -
Yes...take the concept of original sin for example. If God says don't eat that apple..and Adam and eve have no concept of good or evil right or wrong..how could they possibly understand the order 'don't' and the implications of not doing as they are told. Crazy old deity...made a faux pas there. -
What if the universe exists by accident, the "god" is ignorant of our existence, and god is too powerless to do anything to it?
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What if? I'd say im pretty sure it's all one big accident!
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The "what if" involves a living, yet ignorant and powerless creator.
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Yes....
yes he can...
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Mwahahaha! -
Well the women doesn't look like a mistake to me. -
You gotta know who they are so you can laugh
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enlighten me
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Oh I checked the link... heidi spencer..
She mustn't play guitar, never heard of her -
Oh, they're not worth the attention (or the effort to explain why). In fact, I'm glad to know there are people who don't know these two (and their "friends"). Gives me hope for this world.
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i dont know them also
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I don't think god makes mistakes. Evil things happen because they have to happen. Evil gives balance to the world, and the point of life is not living in a world of cotton balls. Would anyone WANT TO?
Btw, I don't believe in God, I'm speaking of a god. -
why it depends which god it is that you speak of ?
*i is clever lola*-
It shouldn't, but I want to avoid getting into a dogmatic debate about what the Bible says, as I couldn't give a flying rats bottom about what the bible says.
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you see.. the god of chocolate cake lives in my cupboard, and sometimes he gets things wrong let me tell you!, and the god of pencil shavings (who is a good friend of mine) never seems to put a foot wrong!. So you see, it is important we know which god it is we are talking about!
( i could also not give a rats ass for "the bible" 8)
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Yeah... Nerd Fashion
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Oxymoron?
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yes ...is not equal to
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I recently concluded that God "as it is given to us" does not exist.
This God I have believed in, that we think of as in the image of man has all kinds of flaws, as it is a reflection of all our fears, joys, speculations, etc.
What undeniably exists (in my opinion) is "a creative/creating energy" which, therefore does not "good" nor "bad" it simple "does”.
It is inevitable to have “evil”. Where there is light, there is shadow…
I find this very appealing as it truly brings me in harmony with my interrelatedness with everyone and everything around me.
Once comfortable with this idea, I can only hold myself responsible for my actions - and nothing more, nothing less. No reward at the end of the road, just the knowledge of having lived with honesty and integrity.
Life also becomes simpler… less controlled by the institutions and stone age beliefs.-
oh...
PS:
No "God" doesn not make mistakes.
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I don't think God makes mistakes. Somethings happen in life to teach us lessons and too make us stronger. Somethings also happen to make us pay closer attention.
eachotherskeeper.blogspot.com -
If god can makes mistakes, then he is not omniscient, if he can't then he is not omnipotent.
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a mistake is not an action it qualifies an action
you can't MAKE a mistake, you can only make a choice that qualifies as a mistake.
from that perspective an all knowing being will not take an action that can be qualified as a mistake.
in fact an all knowing being can make any number of choices that -from an outside observer- might individually seem to be mistakes, but because they know the end result of all possible choices they simply can pick what ever path they choose to the desired result.
the combination of being all knowing and all powerful gives a further resolution. an all knowing all powerful being has the ability to make any choice and create any number of possible scenarios to those choices all ending in a positive result without breaking logic.
all knowing, all powerful, and all present, I will refer to as "One" is a nice twist.
the One has no use for choice, and simply does, because every action exists as it is perfectly. The One interacts by nature rather than need. Since there can only be One, all powerful all knowing all present being, all existence is derived directly from the One existence and is ultimately reclaimed. Time is a sub-construct of One to facilitate measurable existence for finite existences otherwise the finite existence would have no consciousness to speak of.
check my logic but I think that all makes sense!
Man someone start a discussion in the new debate group! this is plumb stimulating!~-
well... anyone?
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"the One has no use for choice, and simply does, because every action exists as it is perfectly"
So, is "the one" unable to be less then perfect?
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I am assuming that your question is barbed from the perspective that if an all powerful being cannot be imperfect then they are not all powerful. And I would ask, what is perfect and how do you measure perfection?
the same question another way would be... can a full glass be less than full?
if something is the standard by which all other things are measured then how can you measure the standard against itself?
again your logic would be faulty because you are using a qualifier (the value of the standard) to measure the actual standard. which is totally illogical and unnessesary.
also determining the qualification of infinite power by comparing infinity(power) to anything less than infinity (imperfection) still equals infinity especially when comparing an object to itself- the qualification just becomes useless.
so while "the One" may be capable of becoming imperfect theoretically, it is utterly useless to measure it because the imperfection would become perfection.-
"so while "the One" may be capable of becoming imperfect theoretically, it is utterly useless to measure it because the imperfection would become perfection."
The imperfection wouldn't "become perfection" it would have been perfect all along. Therefore, if he cannot be imperfect, he can only be perfect, then he is not omnipotent.
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He has made many and will continue to make more. -
infinite power+ infinite knowledge+ infinite presence = infinite perfection
if you negate any quality then the outcome becomes imperfection
but this formula is a perfect formula because infinite perfection is the definition and the outcome of the combination of infinite qualities.
to summarize the formula infinity(no matter how you divide or qualify it) = infinity
power=x
knowledge=y
presence = z
perfection = p (by definition infinite perfection)
your argument is
p != ∞x∞y∞z
or
perfection does not equal infinite power + infinite knowledge + infinite presence
"if he cannot be imperfect, he can only be perfect, then he is not omnipotent."
are you sure you want to stick with that?-
I don't see the conflict. If god is unable to do something, than he is not all powerful. If he cannot be imperfect, then this is something he is unable to do. If he is unable to be imperfect then he does not have infinite power.
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If you do not see the conflict in logic then I must leave you in your bliss.
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As I was taking a break, washing some caramel corn out of my teeth, what you have presented here came to me and made sense, at lease in the way I interpreted it. To simplify it further, it seems as though if god = ∞ then anything I considered as less or other then that would still be included in ∞. It works mathematically, but something still doesn't sit right with me. I want to say, that if this is the case, and that since god can't be anything other than ∞ than this is something he can't do or be, and is thus not omnipotent. But the problem comes again that there can be nothing other than ∞, so it again would be included in ∞. But If there can be nothing other than ∞ and because of that god cannot be that in which does not exist, then that is something he can't do and is thus not omnipotent. He would have to be able to not exist and exist as he wished, and this would have to be included in ∞. Or now I am going bonkers!
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@jasonthebaldguy
Good thinking for the definition of "MISTAKE" as [you can't MAKE a mistake, you can only make a choice that qualifies as a mistake].
That shows the relativeness of a mistake. God has the power to correct any mistakes he did in his own degree. But for us comparing with the conditions, it may be seen us as a mistake. For example; "mutation" is a mistake in scientific aspect but it triggers the Evolution of human beings.
Here is the proof for existence of God: kudai.bloggum.com/yazi/mathematical-proof-of-the-existence-of-god.html
@morgantj
"All paradoxes arise bcs of some not well-defined terms"
That's same for Omnipotence paradox. We can't make clear and fully satisfied definitions for infinity, that's why one can build a paradox like that. These definitions are beyond our scopes. So no need to think about them so deeply.
Religion philosphies tell that you should use your senses if you want to go beyond the scope of your brain.
Use your senses!! and may the force be with you!! -
It is a rather primitive belief that begin when man had quite a bit less knowledge and understanding then we do now. Of course we do not have all the answers still, and may never know everything, but a lack of knowledge and understanding of the entire universe doesn't mean "god did it." It doesn't prove a god exist.
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I do believe that we may know everything. We have scientific methods like "induction" or we can give a "cut" to infinities. So it may be enough to know a small part of universe to do induction.
Besides I'M NOT saying that "we have a lack of knowledge for the universe, so there should be a god who knows everything". I'm just saying that Omnipotence paradox gives uncertainty for God's case bcs of not well-defined term: "infinity". Simply the problem is that one cannot compare two infinities(stone's weight and God's power)
Because ∞ - ∞ = indeterminate
and ∞ != ∞
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... thus our feeble minds can only go so far!
where my mind fails me is at the point that nothingness and existence should not meet in infinity but do they?
or must they?
umm in answer to the question - I do not think God "would" make a mistake, but I do think that he would make a choice that he was not entirely happy with to evoke an end result that was desired. an example being the choice to sacrifice Jesus for the sake of the world.-
You say you don't think he "would" make a mistake as if he "could" but chooses not to. So do you think he has the ability to make a mistake, and would he even realize it if he did?
Also, wouldn't one mans life be a small price to pay to save an entire world? Why would it be so difficult for him, apparently he kills people all the time, aren't we after all, all his children?
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Sheesh! I am falling back on my old ways!
no I think that there is no possibility to make a mistake
as for the latter point the cost was not the "pound of flesh" so to speak but the cost of love.
I think sometimes people miss out on the fact that God actually submitted to the rules that we are governed by. -
sure he can. -
God will never ever make some mistakes.. everything happen around us have some reason.. it never happened because of God make some mistakes -
Is it possible for humans to make a mistake? Mistake implies choice.
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Does it? It implies intention and an outcome that is inconsistent with that which is desired but not necessarily free will.
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The snowflake falls perfectly in place.
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For those of you who don't believe, I think there is a reason you question so deeply. If you listen to bloggers like jasonthebaldguy rather than simply seeking points to rebut you may be surprised at what happens within you.
Keep in mind however, that growth means change and change involves risk, stepping from the known to the unknown. Not easy. -
NO, no and never
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Following the bible one could say that, based on free will, people can make mistakes all the time (and we do, all the time). God however is supposed to be an all powerful, all knowing being. So to answer your question based on 'facts' from the bible: No, god can not under any circumstances make a mistake. -
God is superficially perfect.
God created Hell and Heaven, Angels and Devils. -
If God could make a mistake, then He wouldn't be God. -
Dont know about god making a mistake, but surely know i have a few questions i would ask..
deepasubbaraman.blogspot.com/2008/02/if-you-could-ask-god-one-question.html -
If God didn't allow evil things to happen, we would all be robots and then complain that we are controlled.
You can't have it both ways. That is why God uses a hands-off policy.-
If we complain that we are controlled, it is of course because we are being controlled to complain, not by our own free-will because we wouldn't have free-will, remember, we are being controlled.
And Proverbs 16:9 supports this, "A man's mind may plan his way, but the LORD is the one who determines his steps"
According to that, god is in control of us, we are puppets, and he is the puppetmaster. Where is the free-will in that? We can think and plan as much as we want yet we can't act on these thoughts because god is the one determining our steps according to his master plan. Which makes sense since he knows everything already, including the future, meaning it must already be determined. What doesn't make sense is why even give us the ability to plan if we can't act on our plan without him already having determined it anyway?
So I have been determined to conclude that we are robots. -
the free will is to make the choice, by which we choose our destination, yes the results are already known but how we get there is up to us. and ultimately we have the ability to choose our destiny by the aggregation of our choices. Knowing the outcome of a particular collection of events does not constitute control, however creating an environment in which all choices are objectively balanced does constitute direction.
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There are no choices. The choices you think you have in front of you are not choices at all, only further conditions that contribute to determining the path you do take.
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you hit the nail on the head! mikeny07! It's one or the other... but you can't have both... Free will is Freedom to enjoy the consequences of our actions.
jasonthebaldguy.blogspot.com-
"Free will is Freedom to enjoy the consequences of our actions"
Free will is to enjoy causality? Because acknowleding our actions have consequences is to acknowledge causality. And even those actions are the consequences of another consequence, and that consequence the consequence of another consequence... and so on... no room for free-will in such an environment. -
while each choice may cause a hierarchy of causalities of varied severity the aggregate of those choices would ultimately still constitute free will and the ability to choose our destiny
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You make the mistake of thinking there are choices and free-will to begin with. You cannot "choose" your "destiny." That is an oxymoron, a contradiction of terms. Destiny refers to a predetermined course of events, path, that leads to a predetermined future. There are no "choices" involved, there is only one set path.
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so you are absolutely stating that you believe there is no free will? or are you arguing against your point of view?
I can't figure out what your goal is here? just to dissagree?
from a logical stand point regardless of the current state a choice is a choice! you cannot choose an option that does not make logical sense! in other words if I have the choice to eat pizza or not eat pizza... that is not because all the events before hand conspired together to force me to make that choice. IT IS A SIMPLE CHOICE! by making that choice I have other choices to pick from later. (whether to lose weight or gain weight by continuing to eat pizza like its going out of style)
agreed on my improper use of the term "destiny" but you are missing the point. If everything were fixed then chaos could not exist as we know it. Chaos and entropy are very important parts of free will, they provide a varied severity of outcome based on the timing and situation of a choice. -
LOL, yes, I don't believe we have free-will. As for choosing to eat pizza or not, there were causes that determined you to eat or not eat pizza. And speaking of chaos, I recommend you check out chaos theory, aka the butterfly effect - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chaos_theory which reflects the deterministic environment I speak of, in which there is no room for free-will. I recommend you also check out the basics such as causality, and physics, neither of which suggest we have free-will.
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There's a great line in Woody Allen's film from the 1970s, Love and Death, that goes, "... if it turns out that there IS a God, I don't think that He's evil. I think that the worst you can say about Him is that basically He's an underachiever."
I don't believe in God, but if I'm wrong about that He would seem to be an underachiever. -
See "Carrot Top" -
God does not make mistakes! Everything he does, he does for a reason. It is all for the betterment of mankind. -
By omnipotent or all powerful, most theists mean that God can do anything that isn't contradictory.One cannot have love with freewill to choose it. He's still all powerful in any useful sense of the term.
God could eliminate all evil. However genuine love cannot exist unless freely given through free choice and will and thus man was given the choice to accept God’s love or to reject it ... choose 'good' or 'evil.'
Evil ultimately is rebelling against God. And if God didn't give us the choice to rebel against Him, we wouldn't have much in the way of free will. We'd be able to take our pick of Good (and, therefore, we'd be following God's will (which is, be Good), which is what He wants us to do). Ooh. Big whoop. No real choice there. It's like saying, "You're gonna get executed. But take your pick as to how you wish it done!" It doesn't matter what you do, you still end up dying. The same applies here. If all of your options are good, (in accordance with God's will), then it doesn't matter what you choose.
God knew the consequences of giving us free will, and He obviously found them acceptable, probably because love due to free will is a far greater thing than love on command. To rob humanity of mind, the source of all human dignity, would be an evil which makes the sum total of all the atrocities humanity has ever committed look positively benevolent by comparison. Simply going back to retcon the decision has the same basic effect.
So the only way for God to eradicate all evil (at least, in the quick-fix manner which most people who make this argument seem to want to happen), now that the proverbial genie is out of the bottle, would be to do something far, far more evil than anything which has ever been done: the mass dehumanization of some six billion people, plus all their descendants. If God is truly omnibenevolent, then this is not acceptable.
thundercatt99.wordpress.com/
thundercatt99.blogspot.com/ -
God does not make a mistakes. Evil is here to test our faith. Disasters happens for a reason and whatever it is, who are we to question God? the existence of humans in this world is proof enough that there is a God. -
We do our own mistakes if we let evil be part of us and God is the one who will guide us if we believe in God. If we suffer because you think God made it happen to us, it is not a mistake by God but it a challenge for us. -
as a non-believer, i have no opinion about this. i just figure when i make mistakes, i'm big enough to admit to them and learn from them (ya know, the opposite of god fearing dubya).
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Yeah. He can. Well....
He created me. -
How can anyone say that because there is evil in the world there is no God? I would think that seeing evil in the world would confirm that there is a God. Without good there can be no bad and vice versa.
I'm not super religious but I do consider myself a Christian and yes I do believe that God exists and yes he controls all that happens, but ultimately he gave us free will to do what we want and make the choices we want to make. God allows us to reap what we sow, both the good and the bad. I also believe that God tests us and allows us to learn from our hardships and mistakes, essentially making us stronger people. But I know that God is still there if things ever get overwhelming, he is a soft place to fall.-
The evolutionary mechanism of natural selection depends upon death, destruction and violence of the strong verses the weak - these things are all perfectly natural. One what basis then, does somebody judge the natural world to be horribly wrong, unfair and unjust? If you are sure this is the case, you must be assuming the reality of some extra-natural standard to make that judgement! A non theist way at looking at the world has no place for genuine moral obligation of any sort, and no way to say there is such a thing as genuine and appalling wickedness. Therefore, if you think there is such a thing as horrifying wickedness, then you have a powerful argument for the reality of God!
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God cannot make a mistake... about anything.-
Than god is not omnipotent.
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God does not make mistakes. His creation does. -
IsThe name "Allah" is a word that is heard quite often these days whether it is on the television or passed along in conversation. But most non-Muslims have no idea who Allah is.
Some mistakenly believe that Allah is a deity that Muslims worship similar to the way in which Buddhists worship Buddha. Others think that Allah is a man or a prophet. Just the name "Allah" is so shrouded in mystery because most people never take the time to unravel the meaning.
Rather they believe what they see portrayed in the heavily biased media and allow their fears to take hold of their chests instead of seeking out the truth for themselves.
The meaning of Allah is so simple. Allah is the Arabic form of the word "The One True God". Muslims worship the exact same God that Jews and Christians do.
However, Muslims prefer to call God by His proper name Allah and refrain from using the word "god" itself since it can be attributed to so many other things. For example, in proper English the feminine form of "god" is "goddess" and let’s look at Greek Mythology where the Greeks worshipped many "gods".
Muslims believe that Allah is the One and Only God without partners and that the name "Allah" is unique to the sole Creator of this World and everything in it. To liken Allah to another supposed god in any way shape or form is to commit the one unforgivable sin of shirk, or ascribing partners to Allah.
Islam is the only religion on Earth that remained purely monotheistic. Each time a Muslim prays to Allah, he has a meeting with the Lord of this World without an intercessor or mediator.Muslims believe in submitting their entire will to Allah through acts of worship, obedience and good deeds. Muslims believe that Allah is ever-present watching over His Creation and is always close to them.
Allah says in the Quran what means,
[And indeed We have created man, and We know what his own self whispers to him. And We are nearer to him than his jugular vein (by Our Knowledge).] (Qaf 50:16)
The Quran reveals that there are Beautiful Names of Allah, which is how Muslims get to know the Creator. Muslims are forbidden to ponder upon Allah’s appearance or to attribute Him to anything in this World as some faiths liken Allah to man. Islam rejects this entirely. We can know about Allah from His beautiful names of which Prophet Muhammad said:
"Verily, there are ninety-nine names of God, one hundred minus one. He who enumerates (and believes in them) them would get into Paradise." (Al-Bukhari)
Some of the names are:
Al-Wadud — The Loving
Al-Khaliq — The Creator
Al-Ahad — The One
Al-Aziz — The Mighty and Strong -
i am sosososoory it`s long but you ask
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well yea! just go to wal-mart and look whose comeing through the door sometimes!!!
THAT WAS A JOKE!!!! for anyone who doesn't know me!
I don't think GOD makes mistakes I think people do though
hence SIN! LOL -
oh voodoo, I see u up there hunny,sure wish u wouldn't hold a grudge,but whatever tickles ur pickle
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If there was a God, i.e. a far higher intelligence, he would not care about us. Do you care about ants?
So even if there is one, you'd better not count on him...-
y wouldn't you care about something you created??
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NO! GOD never makes mistake. By the way, the God that I mean here is our lord Jesus Christ and His father Jehovah. Not any other so called fake "god". Even before you were born, He already knows what you will be. He already knows how good and how bad you will be. If you are chosen, then before you are born, you have been chosen by Him to believe in Him at the time he destined. If you don't believe in Him, that's mean there are two reasons. 1st, you are not chosen. Or 2nd, your time have not yet come.
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