Discussions

China & the Olympics

Posted by roastfrog • 4/07/08 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Tags: 2008, beijing, china, olympics, torch

I don't always get out and about for the benefit of my blog, but since the Olympic torch was coming through Paris today I decided to go check things out. You can read about my experience and check out the photos here:

www.roastfrog.net/?p=219

It occurred to me that given the amount of terrain the torch will be covering there's a good chance BC users have plenty to say about it (or China and the Olympics in general).

Have you already blogged about these subjects? Do you plan to?

User Comments

4/07/08

markstoneman

Interesting post. Now I'm wondering about the disconnect between what you saw and what I've heard on the news. Why, for example, did the torch get extinguished and carried on a bus a couple times. Maybe the route was long and some sections were rowdier?

Related thread: www.blogcatalog.com/discuss/entry/olympic-flame-extinguished

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4/07/08

roastfrog

My view is that the police presence was much stronger where I saw it in order to ensure the Chinese journalists had at least one "approved" image to show on their news broadcasts.

On one of the French news channels at the moment they are discussing a translated version of a Chinese report which shows the Eiffel Tower and nothing else.

[reply]
1. 4/07/08
  
  markstoneman
  
  Now I get it. I though you were trying to paint this image for all of Paris. Interesting.
2. 4/07/08
  
  roastfrog
  
  Indeed it seems things got quite out of hand after departing the Eiffel Tower! I'm pleased the demonstrators managed to get their point across and I hope the pressure will continue as the torch continues around the world (next stop: San Fransisco). It will be practically impossible to demonstrate once it gets into China, so now's the time to do it.
4/07/08

mikeny07

I have not been following all of this. Why are people climbing bridges in California and protesting all over the world?

Can someone sum this up?

We have other problems all over the world and I don't see any protest for them though.

[reply]
1. 4/07/08
  
  kevingoodman
  
  Yep - Those communist bastards don't deserve to host the Olympics.
  Free Tibet and leave Taiwan alone!
2. 4/07/08
  
  Anok
  
  Well, maybe you don't see protests for problems all over the world...but they are occurring.
  
  This however is a big deal because people from all over the world will be attending or participating in the Olympics - in China where human rights violations are pretty high. Not to mention the blatant and violent silencing of Tibetans, and citizens of China who want some rights.
  
  If it isn't right to support China's policies right now, is it right to support the Olympic games being held there?
3. 4/07/08
  
  offendedblogger
  
  I agree with Kevin, they don't deserve it one bit.
4. 4/07/08
  
  angelawd
  
  I'm with Kevin, too. I don't think the Olympics should be allowed to be held there.
5. 4/08/08
  
  Norski
  
  About as dispassionately as I can put it:
  
  Back in 1951, China invaded Tibet. They call it "Xizang" now, and say it's a Chinese province. Quite a few Tibetans don't agree.
  
  And, according to the Chinese government, it seems that the Dali Lama is plotting against China. I'm being a bit unfair in saying that. Maybe.
6. 4/09/08
  
  techfun
  
  Just playing Devils Advocate here. Cities prepare for years and years to host the games. There is literally no other event on the planet of its scale and complexity.
  
  Are people who are suggesting that China not be allowed to host the games suggesting that they should, instead, be canceled? The shelf life of Olympic level athletes are not all that long. Is there a serious desire on your parts to make the more arduous and difficult than usual training these people have undertaken to handle the pollution and air quality issues in Beijing be thrown away?
  
  Its not like we can just move it elsewhere at this stage of the game so what exactly is being suggested when someone says "Those communist bastards don't deserve to host the Olympics"? And what do the athletes around the world who have worked so hard "deserve" out of this situation?
4/07/08

iamthevoodoochild

I think the Olympics will still push through whether or not the protests continue to swell. I think China is stiffly focused on hosting the Olympics, and that they do not see these human rights protests as hindrances to their aim. And I think the Chinese interest to bolster its economy is one of the many reasons why they want to pursue the event all the more. Lest we forget, China is becoming a major force in the global market. Or perhaps it already is one.

[reply]
1. 4/07/08
  
  roastfrog
  
  The main reason most politicians refuse to consider a boycott is precisely for this reason. There's also the risk that the Chinese media will portray the free tibet/human rights protests as anti-China protests. The last thing anyone wants is a nation of 1.3 billion people growing to hate the West.
  
  In many ways a boycott would be a terrible idea, which is what in my view makes getting the message across before the Olympics start all the more important.
4/07/08

mikeny07

Why did they let them host it to begin with then?

[reply]
1. 4/07/08
  
  Anok
  
  I really don't know, Mike. I believe that politics played it's part. As the Voodochild above mentioned, China has become a major economic and even a political force globally speaking....we, the US, owe China a heck of a lot of cash too....
2. 4/07/08
  
  offendedblogger
  
  Cha-ching goes a long way.
3. 4/07/08
  
  Anok
  
  Even if they have been poisoning our toys and toothpaste
4. 4/07/08
  
  offendedblogger
  
  Heh. Good point.
4/07/08

daniel23

I fully support moral posturing and ineffective symbolic protest.

[reply]
1. 4/07/08
  
  Anok
4/07/08

jackpayne

Oh, man, you think China is paranoid now, just wait till they get their treasured Olympics boycotted. Then you'll see paranoia like you wouldn't believe. An empirical, naturalistic worldview this is not.

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4/07/08

markstoneman

I agree with Jack that boycotting the Olympics could well be counter-productive. And let's not forget who is holding a bunch of our debt instruments.

[reply]
1. 4/07/08
  
  roastfrog
  
  Would an opening ceremony boycott be just as bad in your opinion?
2. 4/08/08
  
  daniel23
  
  So cowardice should stop America from boycotting a regime who, apart from crushing Tibetans and unruly peasants, also sells the internal organs of political dissidents?
3. 4/08/08
  
  markstoneman
  
  There's a difference between cowardice and a pragmatic sense of what the consequences of an action are likely to be. As is often the case in diplomacy, the question is not always what is the right thing to do, but what is the most efficacious thing to do. Machiavelli has some grizzly tales to tell in The Prince, but he also knew a thing or two about human nature, politics, and statecraft.
4. 4/08/08
  
  daniel23
  
  Well if Machiavelli said it...
5. 4/08/08
  
  Norski
  
  I'm no sports or athletics fan - but the Olympics athletes seem, in many cases, to transcend the irresponsible norm that I've gotten used to over the last few decades in professional sports.
  
  A major reason I have for not wanting a boycott of the Olympics in China is that it would adversely affect many athletes who are interested in the Olympics - not the policies of whatever country was (unwisely, in my opinion) chosen as host for this cycle.
  
  This is a particularly important point, because human beings age: and this might be the last, or only, Olympics some of the athletes can participate in.
  
  Happily, I have no power to influence the boycott/no boycott decision. That sort of responsibility I can do without.
6. 4/08/08
  
  daniel23
  
  Theoretically I agree, Norski, but apart from staining China's image, what weapons does anybody have against Chinese govt tyranny?
7. 4/08/08
  
  Norski
  
  What weapons?
  
  The Web, which bypasses traditional information gatekeepers.
  
  Protests - preferably ones which do not hurt people who are at most peripherally involved with China and its government's policies.
  
  Time. The current regime in China will pass. Poland has disappeared once or twice, and came back. Perhaps Tibet can do the same.
8. 4/08/08
  
  markstoneman
  
  What weapons? Engagement. Helped bring down the soviet system.
9. 4/08/08
  
  daniel23
  
  Poland? Did you forget the massive working-class movement and Solidarity?
10. 4/08/08
  
  brigid
  
  I still don't get what cowardice has to do with thinking a boycott isn't the best idea.
  
  As much as I'd like to see Tibet out of China's control I think the current trend of protests and just plan nastiness toward the traditional Olympic events is more likely to make the protesters look bad than China.
11. 4/08/08
  
  markstoneman
  
  Daniel, the operative verb in my last contribution in this part of the thread was "helped". I did not assert any monocausal explanation for the end of the Cold War.
4/07/08

jackpayne

Yeah, Mark is on the right wave-length here. Boycotting the opening ceremonies would be every bit as bad. If you've watched all the news releases coming out of China over the past year you'd know the degree of intense pride they have in their hosting the Olympics. Any kind of boycott would be perceived by them as a direct slap in the face. The consequences might be more than we'd want to risk right now, at this moment in history.

[reply]
1. 4/08/08
  
  kevingoodman
  
  Jack – that’s a wise analysis. Notwithstanding, I believe we too often forego principal for what is perceived as the greater good.
4/08/08

asithi

China has invested billions into their infrastructure and new buildings in Beijing. When I was there in 2003, you can feel the pride in people's voices when they talk about hosting the Olympics. I agree with jackpayne. Any boycott would cause them to loose face.

[reply]
1. 4/08/08
  
  Norski
  
  That, or rain at the wrong time. I understand that a major stadium was built without a roof.
  
  Not to worry, the government says that they'll keep rain away from the city for the Olympics. (I know, but I'm not making this up. www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-rain31jan31,0,39372.story )
  
  This could get interesting.
4/08/08

scoreboardgourmet

I've put up a few China/Olympics posts from the food angle.
www.scoreboardgourmet.com/olympics/index.html

I'm sure you know that US athletes are bringing their own food - and I'm guessing you're not surprised by that, but it's still interesting in the larger context of Majorly Controversial Country Hosting Major World Event. Why did they let them host it in the first place IS a good question, mikeny07, but it's too late to ask. Now the focus has to be - how do we deal with and accept the decision we made, and not totally hurt the athletes

[reply]
1. 4/08/08
  
  Norski
  
  Thanks! I'll get back on this. Maybe.
2. 4/08/08
  
  Norski
  
  Thanks again for the comment. Your post put me one step closer to my quota for "Apathetic Lemming of the North."
  
  And, about American athletes bringing their own food? What finely-tuned athlete wouldn't want to avoid finding out what downing the local equivalent of bratwurst, or pain au chocolat, or whatever, would do?
4/08/08

Norski

Do I plan to post about the Chinese Olympics, and specifically the torch?

It's on the list of 'possibles' for my "Another War-on-Terror Blog" blog, but to date I haven't had a situation yet, where there's both a good angle, and nothing more pressing to post.

[reply]
1. 4/08/08
  
  markstoneman
  
  Watch San Francisco.
2. 4/08/08
  
  Norski
  
  I am, Stoneman, I am. It could be quite a brouhaha.
  
  Thanks for the heads-up.
3. 4/08/08
  
  daniel23
  
  You going to turn out to tackle tyrants, Norski? Or just criticize and direct action against said tyrants?
4. 4/08/08
  
  Norski
  
  I live about 2,000 miles from San Francisco, have a limited budget, and health issues.
  
  I am not, therefore, going to go to San Francisco. I wouldn't travel, unless the Olympic torch were to come to St. Cloud, Minnesota - a very unlikely event.
  
  As to 'tackling tyrants,' I am not entirely convinced that waving a sign and screaming, or trying to put out a torch being carried by someone engaged in carrying out a century-old tradition, is an effective means of freeing Tibet from China.
5. 4/08/08
  
  daniel23
  
  Of course you're not going to San Fransisco. Neither am I. But I'm not going to knock hippies, lefties and students waving signs with silly and cliched phrases, because it's not as if I'm doing anything personally.
  
  And actually protesting does do quite a bit, it makes the Chinese govt aware that the world spotlight is on them, and strongly encourages them to scale-down the violence. So a protester's fond hope is that across the planet some peasant lad ISN'T getting his head bashed in because of their action -- they know it won't bring down the Chinese govt.
6. 4/08/08
  
  brigid
  
  Do you really think the Chinese government gives a darn?
  
  Somehow I think that all this fuss is only going to really hurt those trying to participate in the Olympics rather than the intended target.
4/08/08

aningeniousname

How ironic The Chinese are acting like animals and Americans queue up to condemn it. The phrase pot calling the kettle black springs to mind.

[reply]
1. 4/08/08
  
  Norski
  
  I didn't know the Dali Lama was an American.
2. 4/08/08
  
  aningeniousname
  
  Isn't he? He dresses badly! Are you sure?
3. 4/08/08
  
  Norski
  
  Actually, compared to bell-bottoms and polyester leisure suits, I'd say that the Dali Lama is a regular Beau Brummel.
4. 4/08/08
  
  aningeniousname
  
  He hasn't hit his "Vegas years" yet give him time.
4/08/08

markstoneman

Maybe I should add that while I find the notion of a boycott potentially counterproductive, I do think there are probably circumstances where bringing politics into this international sporting event is probably justified. I'm not sure it was in 1980 when Carter kept the US out of Moscow because of the Soviet invasion of Afghanistan, but there were those 1936 games, when Hitler temporarily suspended the worst actions against German Jews, until the media and other foreign visitors had left. That would have been a good time to boycott the Olympics, which we did not do.

[reply]
4/08/08

gerryPlanetEarth

Here are some of my medal predictions for the upcoming summer olympics...

Gold Medal Genocide...Dharfur
Gold Medal Human Right Violations...China
Gold Medal Pollution...China
Silver Medal Pollution...India
Bronze Medal Pollution...U.S.A.
Gold Medal Steroids and Performance Enhancing Drugs Masking...U.S.A.
Gold Medal Animal Rights Violation...China
Gold Medal Tank Squashing Dissidents...China
etc.

[reply]
1. 4/09/08
  
  aningeniousname
  
  Typical!! Great Britain are out of the medals again!
4/09/08

bloggingmix

It's sad how ignorance misleads people. I'm not sure most of you know what you're talking about China. It seems to me that you still see China as the 'Old-commy-China'.

Concerning the Olympics, I agree with Jackpayne and Mark. Boycotting the Olympics is not really a good decision. I'm pretty sure that China will do everything in its power to return back the favor. Bush already confirmed that he won't boycott the opening ceremony. He knows the consequences of disappointing the Chinese Government, I guess. And for everyone's knowledge, the Chinese Government has broken several records of past Olympics hosts so you can expect the best this coming August.

Against politicizing the olympics here.

[reply]
1. 4/09/08
  
  markstoneman
  
  Of course, in some ways, China agreed to politicize from the beginning, when it promised to undertake some human rights reforms in order to get the Olympics, but has not done anything in that direction. Just saying.
4/09/08

techfun

I think Blanca Debrees post on it is definitive:

blancadebree.blogspot.com/2008/04/dont-blame-china.html

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