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Clone your body & download your soul?
Posted by time2getdown • 9/23/09 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: death, discussion, esoteric, metaphysic, Opinion, philosophy, soul, spirit, theology
Do you believe that we have a soul?
What if in the far future we are able to clone our bodies, grow it in a lab to the same age of an 18 year old with a blank mind, then when our physical bodies die, we are able to download all of our brains entire memories & transfer it to our new 18 year old body.
What would be the difference between you & the new cloned you?
Is the soul just the sum of our memories?
I'm interested in your thoughts.
User Comments
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like lucy liu in futurama-
Never watched the show, sorry.
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The study of individuation shows the union between body and soul is susbtantial, and as such cannot be repeated.-
I know what your saying harveyavatar and its a good point. Carl Jung wrote a lot about individuation but he was around in the 1800's, he could have never predicted technology to the extend that it is now. I agree that there can never be another one of you but are we really just a sum of our memories & experiences & what if these could be copied or downloaded into virtual database or rather a "virtual heaven"
I really don't know the answer but I'm interested in opinions.
Thanks Harveyavator
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You seem to be treating "mind" and "soul" interchangeably, and I don't think that's accurate.-
I understand that we as a human race have developed through religion & philosophy a difference between mind & soul but until today we still cannot prove that soul exists. Truly, how can it be measured? There is no scientific experiment to conclude proof.
I am not skeptic to the idea of soul but people when they refer to soul in a religious sense it implies that we separate from our bodies when we die & then continue to have self awareness & a recollection of our past, so therefore is that not, memory separating from the body or rather consciousness? -
You're the one who used the word "soul".
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You should watch it.. it's gooood!
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Just for you I will watch it. How's that?
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Are twins the same person? No. So neither would the the clone and I be the same. The instant the clone opened his eyes and looked around he'd be his own person.-
Although identical twins have the same genotype, they can have different phenotypes, as in fingerprints and physical appearance. In addition to that, from the second they are born, they have different experiences, also contributing to different personalities.
From the second a clone will open his eyes, he will be a different person from the original, but which one of them is you? -
That was my point. The instant the clone started living and interacting with the world, it would have different experiences, and therefore become his/her own person. The clone would not be me, just as my identical twin would not be me. The process of differentiation would just have started later, and not at birth.
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But which one is you? Your clone will have all your memories up to that point, and he would surely answer "Yes" to the question "Are you nothingprofound?"
p.s. What about StarTrek style teleportation, where the original copy isn't kept, and only a copy of your body is built on a remote location? -
See above.
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See my question above...
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The name is irrelevant. We could both have the same name, and still be different persons. What matters is that starting at that point each us will be having different experiences and developing different relationships.
Same thing with the teleportation. The copy will still be different from the original, although he might still choose to call himself nothingprofound. -
If someone chloroforms you and dumps you in a Chinese tribal village from where you can never get out, will you become someone else owing to new experiences?
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You'll not regret it, i can assure you that!
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Your actually making me laugh now
Marcusmarcus -
Futurama is nice but I prefer the Simpsons. Matt Groening made a better job there in Simpsons even that Simpsons have a long time woRK the same story.
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This sounds like BSG. -
Soul and brain are two different things. A soul doesn't have DNA therefore it can't be cloned. That's my story and I'm sticking to it. -
Without soul we look like robots, we need some soul I think so, though in some thoughts soul is like brain, God give us soul and we start to think.
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If I could upload my soul into an exact Megan Fox replica, then I'd think about it... -
Kind of pointless because the best thing about having an 18 year old body is having an 18 year old mind. -
It's very interesting.. and I suppose the clone will be humanized the moment it will start asserting his identity (assuming the technology will be advanced enough for him to be in good health to do that)
And old mind, new body? no problem! the lad will learn so much more-
Unlikely.
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Like I said earlier you can't clone or replicate a soul. It has no dna
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Ok then, what If you could download every memory & thought into a new exact replica of yourself. Wouldn't he/she just think its the same as you and then how could you argue with another you when it is claiming that it is you? What then gives you the right to stake your claim over him/her if it too loves who you love and hates who you hate & remembers everything you remember?
After all it knows everything you know, you can't deceive him/her, so then is it not, that we are just really a sum of our memories, and soul is just wishful thinking because we can't except our immortality?
I'm not arguing the point, I'm just curious.
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As for the DNA theory as mentioned by Hollythehousewife. I get your point, but nobody really knows what soul is, it can't be measured or quantified, it can't be seen or recognized.
We are the way that we are because of our upbringing, memories and experiences but we are only who we are because of our memories. Yes or no?
What about those people that are injured in an accident and they loose there memory, only to find that they're left wondering what the hell he/she every saw in that person who is claiming to be their husband or wife and is wondering who are those strange children that claim I am their father/mother.
Where is their soul, where is there Identity? -
Excuse my incorrect spelling of the words "there, their & they're"
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You got a point there. -
I don't see any proof to the existence of a soul. Your "soul" is just the sum of your memories and experiences wired into your brain structure. Your clone will also feel he is you. Which one of the copies is you? All of them.
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Suppose the clone and I were standing face to face. Would either one of us think it was the other? Or would we consider ourselves separate entities?
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You are now two different people, but which one is you?
p.s. Does the clone know he's not the original? -
The distinction between copy and original is irrelevant.
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It can be important, for example, if like in one of Ray Kurzweil's books, the original person can have the legal right to destroy all his clones.
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I would oppose such a law. Since the clone is no longer a mere clone, but its own seperate person.
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I would too.
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It's a dumb idea and would lead to overpopulation. -
Exactly, Does the clone know he's not the original?
Considering that from the exact moment the clone was brought into existence the other will not be able to claim his own identity.
Each one would not be able to dispute with each other because the clones perception is identical to the other.
It would be from that moment forth that they would take on their own identity as they go about their own separate ways. So therefore is it not that we are a sum of our memories? Where does soul come into it.-
No, we are not the sum of our memories. For example, I am sitting at my computer right now typing this comment. That is not a memory, but an action. That is what I am doing at this moment. That is what I am.
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Your external actions define you to the outside world, but it is your memories that make up your internal feeling of a "soul".
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But if you lost your memory, who would you be?
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I've already lost plenty of memory. But I'm still the man sitting at this computer. You're confusing what a person was with who he is.
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I think if it were possible to download a soul into an 18 yr old body then it would be a very disturbed 18 yr old. the body wouldn't be able to accomadate it.-
Why?
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because of all the accumulated experience. A new body wouldn't be able to hold all that. My theory is not based on anything at all just an idea
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I understand what your saying, but really as you gradually loose your memory
, you slowly evolve into a different character. Why?, because loss of memory.-
A person's character is not the person. You can change your character and still be the same person. In fact that's what one is doing all the time.
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One fundamental conclusion I have realized is that it is not memory but consciousness that gives us what perhaps is soul, the part of us that makes us aware of our own self, it is I believe separate from memory because we are more less born with a clean slate that expands with memory as we experience life. Memory is the sum of our experiences but consciousness is the clean slate of our being, like a baby that is born without comprehension of its surrounding but still to some degree has a personality, this perhaps is soul, this perhaps is not what can be downloaded nor copied, it is perhaps unique to us all. If there is a God then the "clean slate" that is pure consciousness is what makes us unique and can never be duplicated.
BUT!.. When I think of all that I just mentioned, I wonder again...
What about when computers become self aware of themselves. Does that mean that to some degree that they too will have "soul"?
No, they are not organic, nor do they have human genetics, but if they are self aware, and they have consciousness too, then what is the difference between them(self aware computers) and us.
So then if we could copy every memory and download it into a new body, what would that body be, a new exact thinking person with a new soul or a stranger that just thinks the same and remembers what you remember.
Would that not be playing GOD by creating new beings of exact thinking clones of ourselves and who would that clone be?-
Consciousness is just an outcome of a complex machine able to reference itself, so computers can become self aware. Organic or silicon based is not important. If several of your brain cells (or all of them) will be replaced with artificial cells, your personality won't change. It's the structure and behavior of the net that is important, not the building material. There is no soul. Singularity will come eventually.
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Thank you Urikalish, you have a really interesting theory, as much as I like your idea, I am sure that the religious folks would not be impressed. I tend to agree with what you are saying, It does not matter what you are made of as long as everything is made the same then it should work the same. More or less. Organic or electronic it should work the same as long as it is able to correct its own patterns of complex thought processes therefore eventual evolution of being will become.
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The only way the plan could work long term is some kind of policy of zero population. How would you decide who could have a new body, how would you choose who would have to die or who could reproduce. Would the clones be infertile?-
These are very good questions Lifeshighway, who would be the decider with enough divine wisdom to choose and therefore I know of no one capable of such a decision. Of course religious folk would say God should decide, but if there is a God that has given us free will then it is inevitable that we will eventually head down a similar path. So far though cloning has not worked effectively to be a credible means to an end but who can tell what the future holds.
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Sounds like the plotline from the anime movie 'Ghost in the Shell'.
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