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Communism? Call me wrong but... US Gov is Starting To Scare Me
Posted by beowulf1331 • 11/10/08 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: bailout, communism, Government, usa
Doesn't it seem like Bush and all of those in favor of the bailout are actually promoting communism...or socialistic society through the practice of having the government buying into all these large corporations? I don't know all of the facts but doesn't that seem just a little wrong that the government now has a stake in these financial institutions? ironic isn't it?
User Comments
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Is socialism bad?-
Kids, they think America really sat around for 70 years hating Socialism and Communism for no reason. Let me explain the basics of America versus the rest of the world. When they go to war, they keep the land they conquer. We don't. Socialist promise the uneducated and lower class in societies "free money" for just a few moments of vote. In some extremes the leaders shoot those who don't vote their way. In the 20th century 174 million people were killed by their own government and most kids can only tell you about the 6 million Jew's leading UP TO and during WWII. Did you know that the law to exterminate Jews was an Adapted law to kill the handicap? Hitler was big on thinning the herd big believer in Man's brain working against natural selection.
Some kids can even tell you about the 20 million killed by Russian government and 50 million by the Chinese governments. Its a large reason why fought a cold war against centralizing control and why our founding fathers fought against this same principle and created a Republic so that you would have close and local control of those who represent you.
Then there is the basic failing of kids to understand the that wealth is created not generated. Its created by producing something. A "service based" economy needs to remember you are servicing someone who has created wealth. That means you never on top of the food chain. You need foundations to start wealth like steel, coal, oil agricultural. You must produce something from where there was nothing to have created wealth.
Why is socialism bad? It allows you to be ignorant. Ignorant of your current situation and of what the decisions you help make via elections will wind up creating.
Also you should note that before there was America we actually had several forms of goverment including a communist version. Lack of ownership has PROVEN throughout history to make man "not give a damn" about his surroundings. Ownership makes you want to improve your surroundings or create wealth in it.
Really you may want to think of it this way. there are 120 other countries that practice socialism and communism and you wouldn't want to live in any of them.
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It's starting to scare you now? I guess you weren't too afraid when banks were forced by Barney Frank and company to make loans to people who couldn't pay them back. You were not afraid when several members of Congress stated that Fannie and Freddie were in trouble, and the Congress just ignored that to keep getting the votes.
I guess you just woke up.
Be very afraid.-
hey crotchety its ok calm down...I was aware of it I currently work in property management...this post is less for me and more to get other people who didn't realize it to open their eyes.
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I don't think it is. But doesnt it seem ironic that the bush regime was pushing ti even though republicans in the past have seemed so outspoken and against any kind of communistic tendency?
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Please read some literature that pertains to communism or socialism and return to your question. Don't take this personally, but all of your potential assertions are mere speculations and show a great tendency for anti-intellectualism.
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I can't put into words that won't be deleted how much contempt I have for people who toss the terms communism, socialism and even facism around. IMO most folks who do such hot potato "word bombing" are simply aiming to stir up controversy and to what end?
America took a turn in the roadway way back under The New Deal that precluded free-booter capitalism remaining as the status quo. It's too bad that the education system or the students in America or both have not been able to clarify what these terms mean, and that many Americans today remain in a state of agitated ignorance but that does appear to be the reality.
Why hasn't this been posted to the political forum? That's exactly what it's there for www.blogcatalog.com/politics/discuss-
Well, I'm not sure if he is truly arguing from ignorance or just another scare-monger who really doesn't know what he is talking about.
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Why would that be wrong? Other countries do it...South Africa is a parliamentary democracy and the government owns 100% of the stock in the country's only power company. It also owns the country's flagship airline, and has a fiscal interest in other business enterprises. Other countries...that are not communist or truly socialist...have the same.
Maybe you could research communism and socialism so you know exactly what they are, then look up the difference between "nationalizing" a business or industry (like Castro did to the sugar industry in Cuba) and a "parastatal." After all that, sit down for a while and engage in some serious critical thinking. It may not turn out to be as scary as you seem to think it is right now. -
hey time thief
Communism
1. A system of government in which the state plans and controls the economy and a single, often authoritarian party holds power, claiming to make progress toward a higher social order in which all goods are equally shared by the people.
not throwing ti around stating the facts education.yahoo.com/reference/dictionary/entry/communism-
That doesn't bear even a passing resemblance to the bail out situation. Not even marginally close.
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We arent other countries...we aren't built on those tendencies. Our country has been a power house do to our ability to maintain a strong capitalistic nature...I am not saying it is a bad thing to follow communistic practices..read the post. All I sad was that it was ironic.
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@beowulf1331
Why hasn't this been posted to the political forum? That's exactly what it's there for www.blogcatalog.com/politics/discuss
It's not as if you are a first time forum poster. When you created this discussion thread you saw this:
Category ______ Starting a Political Discussion? And the last phrase was linked to the political forum but you chose to ignore it. -
Oh, horse exhaust! I am an American and I lived in America for 56 years before moving away. The fact that it has been tried and proven in other countries demonstrates that it works...and very obviously the way the US has been doing it has NOT been working.
But aside from that, your initial post demonstrates an ABYSMAL ignorance of what communism and socialism are about. TT is right...this belongs on the political forum. And I support her contention that you are just trying to stir up a hornet's nest here.
Why don't you take my first suggestion...educate yourself about your terms and the conditions you are whining about and then get back to us when you have something more substantive than ignorance and misinformation to offer? -
Actually, our country is a "powerhouse"(depending on how you define that) only because we are imperialistic. We push other countires around and kill their citizens to make some moula. :]
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sweet violet everything starts somewhere...and in all honesty we dont know what they heck is going on with the bailout. If you know so much why dont you tell us. My understanding is that the gov is putting money into these companies and in return is given stakes in the company. You dont think that has any kind of influence on the practices of that company? Yo really think the gov is doing that because they just want to be nice? They are doing it because they see an opportunity to maintain some kind of control over these institutions. These companies could fail and new ones could spring up and the world would not end.
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Repeat: look up "parastatal."
It actually works very well to keep companies honest and regulate expenditures...like obscene executive salaries.
There are, in fact, numerous good reasons to have the government a partner is certain types of major corporations...for one thing, it helps keep their dealings transparent and gives the average Joe a voice in the running of organizations that affect him, like banks, utility companies, etc.
A stakehold by the government is NOT the same as government run. -
beowulf are you suggesting that that exploitation is expected? even accepted?
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Parastatals do work well when they have competition. Eskom doesn't have competition and their energy crisis at the beginning of this year cost the South African economy billions. Consumer confidence is falling by the day, mines are closing and thousands of people are losing their jobs because Eskom can't guarantee that industries would have power.
Eskom is a monopoly. It supplies electricity to the entire Southern African region and it blows chunks. Don't forget that Telkom, Eskom, Transnet, Spoornet etc, are all beasts of the Apartheid years still haunting us. They were designed to be socialist ventures from the get go - socialist in the sense that the government practices Keynesian ideals of large scale public works and warfare to facilitate big spending. The fact that America has been at war for at least a century is no coincidence, as such an economic model requires a big gaping hole you can throw money into.
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time thief it has been
posted to political forum-
@beowulf1331
So are you saying that you have created duplicate threads on the same topic in two forums?
If so wtf for? -
I think Timethief has wayyy too much time on her hands. -
@lilOregonBug
Your contributions to the forum have been "No Discussions Found". Apparently you excel at voyeurism and taking cheap shots from the sidelines - how quaint.
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because not everyone is on both forums...dont be so angry ...if people dont want to read it they wont and it will slowly disappear
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Well, as TT mentioned about, I simply have no way of making a comment on this last little stunt that would not get yanked and maybe even sanctioned.
You are not supposed to post to BOTH forums, just to the political one. -
because not everyone is on both forums...dont be so angry ...if people dont want to read it they wont and it will slowly disappear
Balderdash! Any member who can connect to BC General Discussions can click one link and be in the political forum and we both know that.
But it's really not a problem. Two or even ten can play your game so here we go. I'll just go create another dozen threads and post them to both forums so they take up the front pages on both forums and then I'll post the same ridiculous reply to anyone who objects by quoting you.
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This red scare is really getting old. Isn't McCarthy dead?-
Apparently his ghost walks...there's another thread where one member is apparently unaware that modern Russia and Communist USSR are two separate entities, and is stirring a paddle of fear against the rising Russian economy and a new Cold War.
Sigh...how did you and I get such good public educations in the US and so many of the rest of these people remain so painfully, pathetically clueless? -
@voodookobra
that's about as much energy as one should waste on this stuff.
it's really tired.
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Clueless like that Vice-Presidential candidate who thought Africa was a country? What was her name, anyway?-
Clueless indeed. I think she was the one who was masquerading as a soccer mom after her son had already been deployed to Iraq.
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hey sweet violet I haven't heard one statement from you other then the fact you dont agree...Tell me what socialism and communism are if I am really so wrong. What countries at the economic level of the US or the geographic size have successfully made Communism or socialism work. Pretty sure it failed in all the large countries who tried to employ what they considered communism. The reason behind it is because of the amount of control it gives the governing body and the lack of accountability and and protection for the general public. I am not against all aspects of socialism ie healthcare for all citizens. I am against the gov controlling the economy through large multinational financial institutions. oh and by the way.. South Africa owning its only power company is very different from the US slowly gaining control of all large Financial Institutions through buy outs.
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It is YOUR responsibility to educate yourself before you start spouting off, not mine.
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@beowulf1331
Under your cloud of ignorance, you will and necessarily have to call Keynesian economics as socialist/communist theory of thought - try saying this in any academic/financial/accounting institution and surely they will kick you out. This is not worth discussing if you have no clue what you are talking about. Sorry, don't take this personally, but I can't fix your anti-intellectualism.
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This is a duplicate thread to a discussion that has been posted in the political forum. Please post your responses to it there by using this link
www.blogcatalog.com/politics/discuss/entry/bush-and-current-gov-promoting-c... -
You guys are funny...The whole point of the discussion was just to point out how ironic it was that the US stood for a long time trying so hard not to allow gov control over financial institutions or large privately owned corporations but that as soon as sht hit the fan they really had no problem slowly sneaking in and slowly taking a part in these companies when it was previously seen as taboo. No red Scare..Maybe the word Communism was A bad Choice....For that I apologize. It isn't quite Communism but it does seem a little wrong to me that there has not been more public discussion on the fact that The gov is gaining more of a stake in the places we get our money from.
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It isn't quite Communism ...
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah
www.blogcatalog.com/politics/discuss/entry/bush-and-current-gov-promoting-c... -
um ... to respond directly to the discussion question in the title ... okay, you're wrong so stop with the being scared already because based on the definition nicely provided by beowulf, we are about as communist as blogcatalog is googlist (i mean no disrespect by that). besides none of us really know what the heck we're talking about and i put myself at the top of the list. just a bunch of rhetorical, incompletely processed opinions presented as knowledge, fact, or "the sky is falling" propositions.
geez, anyone have a chilled chardonnay on hand?-
@cranelegs
a chilled chardonnay on hand?
During working hours at 1:00 PM in the afternoon? No. -
two things wrong their kiddo: 1) the world doesn't live by west coast time and 2) i would never be doing this while working.
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Oh and by the way I have been to Russia and they still haven't recovered from the years of corruption and pain they were put through. They are seperate now in that the second no longer exists but it hasnt quite been long enough for them to recover to the point that they realize what they have now. The only happy people over there are the youth who never witnessed what their parents went through...and saying they are happy is really pushing it.
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Oh and by the way I have been to Russia ...
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah
www.blogcatalog.com/politics/discuss/entry/bush-and-current-gov-promoting-c...
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Going by your heading, if the US government is only now starting to scare you, have you been asleep for the past eight years?
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the first response that makes sense, thanks!
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whoa! It's getting hot in here... Anyway beowulf, I wouldn't get scared. I appreciate that you posted a yahoo link for the definition of communism, but that definition doesn't really pass critical muster. It's as if I asked a Toyota manufacturer what "horsepower" was and he gave me the rated horsepower of a specific model. That rated horsepower is a true statement, but it doesn't begin to answer my question.
One essential requirement for a Marxist form of government (communist government/socialist economy) to take shape is the fundamental re-valuation of goods so that their value is pegged not to the market but to the value of the labor it took to produce them. Another essential element is placing the concept of a "division of labor" in a coffin. Communism/Socialism also requires government control of the means of production and distribution of goods.
What's going on with the bailout is nothing resembling socialism, as most serious students of international theory know. The bailout is a continuation of Keynesian capitalist thought that has governed our financial system for at least the last 60 years. Both Smith (the father of communism) and Keynes (one of his most revered pupils) saw the necessity of government involvement in free markets. Keynes advanced a theory of government involvement that eventually led to many New Deal programs.
True Smithian free-market capitalism (something even Smith conceded had its limits) has not existed in this country since the industrial revolution of the 19th century. So believe me, we have not been a "power house due to our ability to maintain a strong capitalistic nature". "Strong" capitalism, in the sense that it is free-market capitalism, would have caused us to fall from the Earth around 1940. So, trust me, the bailout is not socialist/communist. It is all still capitalism, no matter what Rush Limbaugh and the BC troll patrol say.
If you’re so inclined, perhaps you can do a study of the Communist Manifesto (and perhaps read up on some of Lenin’s writings). Then check out one of the better synopses of the Smith’s Wealth Among Nations. Finally, check out John Maynard Keynes’s work. I’m sure the internet has some reputable pages giving encyclopedia-worthy discussions on each. Maybe even (*gulp*) Wikipedia (please don’t start and finish with Wikipedia, though).-
Correction: Smith is the "father of capitalism", not "communism". Freudian slip
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You can still edit that, you know. -
Nah, for some reason my stupid browser won't let me activate the "edit" button. Actually, this intermittently goes on with BC no matter what browser/computer I'm using. Perhaps there's a glitch in the matrix?
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There might be agents around!
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*Golf Clap & Standing Ovation*
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Keynes however did design his macro-economic policies in order for them to be effective in a centrally controlled economy. A centrally controlled economy is exactly what socialism, fascism and communism require. However, just because you have a centrally controlled or regulated economy does not mean that the state owns all the means of production. In other words, world economies are run much like the Mafia but this does not mean that they are socialist.
Like the saying goes, the only difference between organised crime and the government is that the Mafia is organised.
I do think it is a valid concern that the state has so much influence over the economy, and it does resemble socialism/communism/fascism (yes, they are all synonyms. Look it up).
It is however too late, as the American government has been controlling America's economy ever since the establishment of the Federal Reserve.
People have been brainwashed to such an extent that they believe health care is a fundamental human right and that guns kill people. I for one can't reason with someone who fails to grasp the basics and I believe people with such blatant ignorance should have their cake and eat it too. Like Benjamin Franklin said:
"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety."
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Naw, much more fun to spread nonsense on internet dicussion forums, sit back and watch the fun.
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nope
very much not for the bush admin...if i was for them I would not be making this post. secondly i am not just now getting scared...i just happen to decide to write a post saying doesnt it seem odd that the bailout gives the gov more control...but apparently people on here get really excited and angry at the "C" word. Which they have every right to be. Oh well I hope they seek help for that. In all honesty that word was only used to get peoples attention so I could get some discussion on here...from both sides...but i guess just because I posted this I am a bad person. lol So be it. All I can Say is Learn to read -
I tell ya, you try to post one helpful answer in this place and it gets totally ignored by the OP...
www.blogcatalog.com/discuss/entry/communism-call-me-wrong-but-us-gov-is-sta...
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i just happen to decide to write a post
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah,
What part of "we have heard nothing but American politics for 9 months now, and you have your own political sandbox to go play in, so go" do you just not get?
www.blogcatalog.com/politics/discuss/entry/bush-and-current-gov-promoting-c... -
Sometimes some of you (americans) are just as brainwashed as the russians used to be, but I guess they learned from their misstakes and their system went down the drains.
perhaps you're heading that direction too, which doesn't have to be bad.
it's all part of nature to change and develope, so don't be afraid. -
for those who want to discuss this more...there is a much more intelligent convo going on in the political discussion section...I was hoping this one would be gone by today. please check out the other discussion post if you are interested and for those who are still having fun trying to call me an idiot get a life...and read that i have already stated the use of the word communism was incorrect. oh and by the way grow up :).
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NOTE: We will ALL still be here tomorrow... -
You mean the sky isn't falling? Oh no! Guess I better get ready for work tomorrow then.
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Want to read real communists, as opposed to the paranoid fantasies of the far right? Here: www.marxists.org/
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It is ironic because it borrows from socialist ideas, but it isn't socialist or communist in and of itself.-
It's a mixed economy. It's catch 22. On one hand you had a big credit-driven boom - a big mistake of the government. Then, the bubble had to burst. This is why the Republicans deregulated. They were trying to minimise the inevitable impact, because the markets were going to collapse sooner or later. The biggest mistake you can make is to regulate the industries again, as there is no market in place to support your industry. But try to explain that to someone who is losing a home they couldn't afford in the first place when someone offers them a lifeline.
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"This is why the Republicans deregulated."
Here is a classic Kool-aid drinker.
1977 1994 and 1999 were "deregulation years" Carter and Clinton would be president during that time. Now your right republicans should of said no in the house since they had control there in 1999. but the "gay bash" was an election year favorite. You see Barney Franks is gay and he was bonking someone at Fanny Mae. Now if your a Republican and you point this out in 1999 that Barney Franks is skimming money off the top well the liberal press calls you a gay basher. Political correctness strikes again.
As for Deregulation versus regulation. Truly put the Kool-aid down.
A group called ACORN used to storm into banks and threaten customers if they didn't give out loans to "low-income" and "no-income" people. The thinking by liberals "why should the inability to pay back the the $200,000 loan disqualify them from getting that loan?"
Thats called "REGULATION" when you use a government agency to force someone to do what they know to be finicial suicide. So when the Republicans wanted to do the evil thing called DEREGULATION they wanted to stop the practice of forcing the banks to throw millions of dollars out the door.
The guys who were in charge of making sure that the banks ran properly Barney Franks , Chris Dodd and even Barack Obama in the past 2 years. So no problem with forcing banks to put themselves out of business at the time but suddenly since millions of people are losing their jobs there might be a problem.
Blame Bush became the nightly news montra.
Now before this becomes a Bush bash bonaza. Lets point out a few basic facts. Bush was not president in 1977 when Carter thought up this crazy ass scheme. bush was not president in 1994 nor 1999 when the 1931 laws were repelled to prevent future depressions. Bush's administration tried 12 times to get new laws to regulate banking on the books in 8 years and 1 of the 12 bills was even sponsored by McCain. All 12 bills were filabustered by Democrats.
In fact the Youtube video that is rather popular on this will show you a "bush regulator" being pummelled by every Democrat they can find for actually trying to stop the thievery without congressional permission.
As for the links to marxist lit. Its very simple. Real world use of Marx versus his Utopia in a book. Marx plays on a persons fear of tomorrow by letting you fool yourself that a "government" will be thinking of you personally better than you can think for yourself. Socialism, Communism or central planning (the new soft touch word by liberals for this same BS)has only one fatal flaw in that it fails where its tried. Try paying attention to Europe their past 2 election cycles are putting in leaders that reject these ideas. Seems like they don't want 18% unemployment anymore.
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Socialism, Communism or central planning (the new soft touch word by liberals for this same BS)has only one fatal flaw in that it fails where its tried.
As a general rule, yes that applies. Some economies like Spain and Japan seem to be doing well with central planning to some extent, but it does fail ultimately because it is not sustainable.
Ireland managed to overtake all the social-democracies in Europe in little under a decade because they stopped interfering with their economy. The government provided training and support to nurture their own people from modest entrepreneurial ventures into big name partnerships. Wherever central planning is implemented, it ends up being a mess. Wherever free market policies are implemented, it ends up going rough for a while but ultimately it results in steady, sustainable development. -
it is a socialist principle but its nothing new check out the new deal-
Yes, it's nothing new. That doesn't mean it works and it doesn't make it right. It doesn't work. Central control means sooner or later there's going to be stormy weather that those in control didn't anticipate and could not foresee. This means you have to look abroad, which is why there's always a war on foreign soil in the case of America and why the Russians and the Chinese are expanding into Africa.
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I didn't say it worked or that I agree with it I was simply saying its not new. So in the title "US gov. starting to scare me" isn't relevant they have done this before. Here is my thoughts on the bailout from my blog randompoliticalthoughtsandnews.blogspot.com/2008/10/government-ponders-more...
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Just wait...come afternoon of Jan 20th...our flag colors might be changing to resemble all the RED states. It used to be red white and blue. It could be just all red now.
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