Discussions
Confederate Flag
Posted by urikalish • 8/09/09 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: confederate, flag, south, usa
First let me start by pointing out that I’m not an American. I see several people on this site using the Confederate Flag as their avatar. I guess these people are just trying to say “I live in the southern part of the USA and I’m proud of it”, but to me this flag mainly represents slavery and segregation. Am I the only one having this bad connotation?
User Comments
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Nope, and I live in the US. -
For us outsiders, it definitely seems like they're proponents of what the south represented during the American Civil War. -
It irks me to no end. To me the Confederate flag not only represents oppression and slavery, but is also a symbol that is openly used by white supremacists to represent their cause right alongside the swastika. People who use it as their avatar claim that it has no meaning outside of Southern redneck pride, but I disagree.
JJ is not a bad kid though. He bugs the crap out of me with his views, but then again, so do a lot of people. I probably irritate him as well with my Chicago liberal democrat ways. -
I echo the above. I am a "southerner". Not delta South but I grew up in the Arkansas Ozarks hill country. And I do not agree with those who glorify our state's joining the Confederacy. I have friends who attend Civil War reenactments. I have no quarrel with them. We discuss our differences openly. And enjoyable argue often. But I do think the flag represents a dark page of our history. The war should not be glorified. It should be accurately remembered.-
My husband's from the same area...Specifically Charleston, AR. Does "Charles Gramlich" ring any bells for you? -
LGramlich, no, no association comes to mind. Growing up in the rural Ozarks many little towns were isolated. I grew up in Stone County. But, by the way, my father was named "Charles."
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no you're not. I'm from the UK. I give that flag those meanings too. Whenever I see it as an avatar I immediately form an image of a fat, coy-boy hat wearing, overtly Christian racist man.-
Christian? Wow!
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I see the confederate flag as a symbol of slavery and segregation too, and I find it extremely offensive and I hate it in every way, shape and form.
And I am an American, so I use my American flag. -
This comment was removed by the Southern Government-
lol
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Truthfully I don't know. Where I'm from in California (far far away from the "Southern US") guys post their Confederate Flags on their lifted trucks all the time. Of course they are usually the farm boy, wrangler wearing type, and yeah they are pretty racist. But I will never forget seeing a whole bunch of them at my HS (back in the day) in blasting 2Pac out of their lifted Confederate Flag emblazoned truck. The scene didn't make sense then and now to me.
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I'm from NY, if I remember the North had slavery as well. So, the red white and blue should also be offensive. Under that flag we nearly genocide the American Indian, we Nuked Japan, we have lots of blood on our hands. I don't see that old glory only means slavery, they had more beliefs behind their way of life. It's not fair to single out one and not the other.
www.press.uchicago.edu/Misc/Chicago/317749.html-
Maybe so, but the Confederate flag is the one that is paraded around by racial segregationists and white supremacists.
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Yeah, but the North under Old Glory fought the South to force an end to slavery (among other things).
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Japan attacked us first, remember? An unprovoked attack against a neutral country.
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Also keep in mind that while Americans continue to ask themselves whether the bombing of Hiroshima was the right thing to do, that Imperial Japan was one of the most murderous regimes in history, murdering millions of civilians and operating rape-camps for military recreation throughout their empire-- and that also has to be considered when one discusses US conduct in the Pacific theatre of WWII.
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It represents the breach of the Constitution by several of the member states, and is inherently unAmerican-
That's if you take the flag to represent it's original meaning. Not saying you're wrong, but there are other possibilities too, including not only the one that Yuri has (and I share).
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And Red White and Blue is paraded around by war mongers - they don't care who they hate.
Not only segregationists and white supremacists wave the southern flag.
Just like all Americans want to invade everyone.-
Nice to know we're not generalizing here.
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@ A8
The Bushes breached of the constitution since the 40's, and 2 out of 3 became President.
Some people have the right to have their beliefs, even if we do not agree with them.
They wave their flag like some people wear a cross.
For some reason people are under the impression that the states invented slavery.
www.historyworld.net/wrldhis/PlainTextHistories.asp?historyid=ac41 -
The Confederate flag has the same connotation for me, Yuri, but I saw people using it who supported Obama. It is a contradictory symbol that has other meanings as well, including just a general sense of rebellion. I react negatively to it, but I also am careful to pay attention to what it might mean to the person using it.
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The Confederate flag is a symbol, a piece of cloth with certain markings on it. This is true of all flags and symbols. They have the connotation you give them. I'm not upset when I see one, because to me it's just a piece of cloth. I don't read anything into it. -
@ MSM
that's my point (thanks) the British empire had slaves and their flag does not get that kind response.
Ditto NP -
I guess these people are just trying to say “I live in the southern part of the USA and I’m proud of it”, but to me this flag mainly represents slavery and segregation. Am I the only one having this bad connotation?
No. I'm with you on this. Maybe southerners enamored of the use of this contradictory symbol should first look at how they honor their ancestors and how they depict themselves when displaying their beloved flag as an avatar, car hood decoration, clothing and as tattoos, etc.
Just take a look at how it's used and who uses it. It's the flag preferred by the KKK types, racial segregationists, white supremacists and biker drug peddlers. We can see it used as underwear on both men and women. We can see otherwise naked bikers wrapped in it.
Today we find young men (white, right wing Christians and political conservatives) who want to proudly declare they are rebellious Southerners by choosing this flag as their symbol. Symbol of what" Hatred? Racism? How ironic. -
Here's a priceless image from the campaign season. Don't stop at the flags. Look at the campaign sign on the lawn.
This image shows just how mutable the Confederate flag can be as a symbol.-
lol
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Classic -
Thanks for posting this!
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What a fool. How can you stand for what the confederate flag represents and vote for Obama? -
Funny how you say that as a conservative. Presumably many liberals would say the same thing with the parts of your question reversed.
Your own take on the flag is rather idiosyncratic in my view, an unusual blending of your Seattle and Georgia experiences, I guess. In any case, it is by no means universal.
Edited to add: I could also read your question through a racial lens, though I know you didn't mean it that way.
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See there is an Southern American family who isn't into lynching.
(unless that scarecrow in the corner is something other than a scarecrow?)
I've had friends with swastika tattoos that were not Nazi, nor Skinheads, American Italians form Brooklyn.-
Actually, I think that picture is from Ohio. I couldn't find the original place I saw it during the campaign, though it was probably on Politico.
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Oops! Here's the where I first saw it:
www.politico.com/blogs/bensmith/1008/Confederate_battle_flag_Obama_yard_sig...
The house was in Indiana. -
Not every swastika has a connection with Naziism; it's an old symbol, and in certain contexts, it's actually quite beautiful. When in a Hindu or Buddhist context, say, in a mediational mandala, or as a South Asian decorative motif there is no mistaking it for the Nazi swastika. They are as different as can be.
I have no idea what these tattoos look like, but I would hope that these folk in Brooklyn had enough sense not to have their swastika done in a Germanic style-- otherwise they are going to be having problems for the rest of their lives.
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Somewhat surprising this many years removed from that time but nonetheless all to typical in some regions. I see a lot more of them since moving a little farther North from Florida. Hatred and bigotry still runs deep in some parts.
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Hey where I lived up to a few years ago there were signs on back roads that warned certain people to go away. People like us have removed them and they have not been put back up as much. It is scary around here in Southern Tennessee sometimes but I do not read what yall are into the flag. I have read alot on the Civil war and that it was not all due to slavery and such. It had a lot of reasons behind it.
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I agree that the flag doesn't necessarily stand for these issues but in my experience, many people who I have encountered that sport this flag, have commented or behaved in a manner as such. Not everyone but some I have interacted with.
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My husband and I went and saw a house with our realtor. We were going to buy it until we came back to place an offer and saw the confedreate flag that the neighbors put up. It wasn't there when we first looked at the house. We took the hint and moved on.
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WIthout knowing all the facts, that does sound like the flag was being raised with a specific message in mind. Not cool, though good to know about before you moved in.
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No. It's about the spirit of people who fought for their families, their rights as a citizens, and what they saw as important against powerful northern industrialists and a media and intellectual crowd who hated them. Me being a populist, it is a perfect symbol for me of keeping the elites in check.
Keep in mind, the vast majority of southerners never owned slaves, and even the ones who did were raised with it. This doesn't make them ghoulish evil meniacal supervillains, it just means that they were brought up to believe in something that, in the final analysis, was not right. You can raise a child to believe in anything. It still doesn't mean that taking away his rights and trampling on him like an old mat is proper behavior. Also, some of the southern states (like North Carolina, Alabama, Lousiana and Texas) weren't even primarilly slave states.
Also, when the West Coast stopped opressing their asian community, they became like normal citizens overnight. So also happened with Greek slaves in the Roman Empire. But this didn't happen in the South. You know why? Because somebody resorted to violence.-
Well placed Jeremy. In that spirit it is one that people can respect.
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"Because somebody resorted to violence"
Ft. Sumpter? -
After already provoked.
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care to elaborate there?
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I'll reply to this in a little bit. I need to get ready for a picnic today.
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enjoy
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As an Arkie (Arkansas) I often hear the argument the Civil War was fought for State's Rights, the right to secede from the federal government. True, this may have been the legal contention. But why did the issue arise in the first place? Because of slavery. Free State of Slave State. The right to own slaves. It was an economic issue pushed by Southern Plantation owners and brokers of power to maintain their economic status. Politicians then as now followed the money. True, most Southerns were poor and without slaves. Certainly so in the non-delta counties of the South. And young men, as always, were eager to prove their manhood and merit. Follow the drums. Follow the flag. Wrapped around whatever noble cause put forth to trigger their participation.
(Those same young men would just as eagerly have followed the Stars and Stripes if born and raised north of the Mason-Dixon line.)
Heroic acts were performed by young men on both sides of the battle lines. Brilliant tactical military moves were carried out. Like all wars it is a period of fascination for historians and military buffs (including myself who still plays "wargames.")
But the Civil War itself was a tragic event. Of epic proportions. A dark stain on our country's talk of "Freedom" and "Equal Rights for All."
And the tragedy of slavery did not end. The "right to own slaves" legally did not remove the suffering. Jim Crow laws and the rigid (and brutal) enforcement of segregation begin. Fear, intimidation, degradation, and forced poverty became the new norm.
I believe in the freedom of speech and expression. I would not want to see laws banning such. But hope those that continue to wave and defend such banners should realize the historical and social reality behind the "Lost Cause." And the emotions such symbols triggers in others.
Just as it has sparked my lengthy commentary here. Thank you.-
Indeed, such symbols are not only about the meaning one attaches to them oneself, but the meanings that other people associate with them. That part has always made me wonder about those who insist on "wearing" or waving this flag, because it is off-putting to so many, including me.
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Mark, you said "such symbols are not only about the meaning one attaches to them oneself, but the meanings that other people associate with them" - My thoughts exactly!
Off-topic: Mark, my name is Uri (pronounced like OO-REE), not like the famous Russian name Yuri (YOO-REE). -
Sorry, Uri.
And thank you for explaining the pronunciation.
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They should place it in a museum and get over the past. I mean it was only 150 years ago. They need a new outlook on life.-
I agree with you. Like the Eagles sing - "Get over it!"
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I'm all for the confederate flag because to me it represents Lynyrd Skynyrd.-
lol ...
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Course, that just confuses everything more, because you're from South Africa (if memory serves), but you're talking Southern rock.
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Yes, and your Southern Rock is actually my Northern Rock.
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It's hard for me as an American who grew up on the border between the Union and Confederacy, not to see the Confederate flag as a symbol of oppression, due to its' use by government whose whole raison d'etre was to maintain the institutions of slavery that sanctioned the deliberate break-up of families, torture, and rape, and was later adopted both as a symbol of domestic terrorists and para-militaries like the Ku Klux Klan as well as by defenders of segregation.
It is, to my eyes, completely tarnished by its associations with racism, violence, tyranny, terrorism and rape.
I realize that not everybody sees it that way, but I am constantly surprised that there are those who do not grasp why it has such negative connotations. There aspects of the culture of the southern United States that do not have such horrible associations, that one could take pride in (think of the rich folk and popular music traditions, or folklore) so it disturbs me that the "Stars and Bars" is so often the symbol seized upon when some want to show "southern pride."-
Ian-bot,
So good to see you back here.
As usual, great comment. -
Well, I come back from time to time, I just don't stay long unless a discussion grabs my attention and I feel like I have something to contribute!
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The official flag of the Klu Klux Klan is the American flag. Other clan symbols include crosses. Er..
Seems a bit too quick and easy to me to judge people based on associations of their symbols. -
May I take this opportunity to mention the KKK was set up by a 33rd degree free mason (aka Illuminati), general Albert Pike?
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@Poodle,
I don't see any problem with pre-judging people based on their avatars. I think we all do it. You are warned. Don't choose something like a swastika as your avatar, even if you think it's visually nice. -
Speaking of swastikas: In Hitler's time, the swastika was already a symbol that symbolised good luck. Note that this is not the symbolism that Hitler associated with it, but if you were to prejudge Nazis on their associated symbolism, the only logical conclusion would be that Nazis are bringers of good fortune.
The swastika is to this day a symbol of prosperity and good luck in many Eastern cultures. This thanks to associations that are not related to Nazism or Hitler.
The lesson we can take from this is that there is no innate relationship between signifiers (ie symbols) and the signified (ie that which they are meant to represent). A symbol means anything you want it to mean.
Speaking of avatars: how many guys are there that who luscious women as their avatars? What does this tell us about luscious women on BC? Not much, I'd think. What does this tell us about guys on BC? Well, not all guys use luscious women, so the avatar can likewise not tell us much about guys on BC.
It does however tell us much about prejudice and that it is often closer to home than we'd like to admit. -
@Poodle,
Avatars are not like your skin color. You are not born with your avatar - you CHOOSE it from a sea of endless possibilities representing something meaningful to you. This is how you choose to portray yourself in this world.
Choose wisely since me and others do prejudge people by their chosen avatars. -
That's a logical fallacy called appeal to the majority.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_the_majority -
@Poodle,
Yes, I admit I prejudge people (a little bit) by their CHOSEN avatars. What's wrong with that? If you choose an avatar of a hot woman's breast in a bikini, don't be surprised if I assume you're NOT a 65 year old female quantum physics professor. -
Uri-are you saying we shouldn't make certain choices in life because other people might be shocked? If that was the case, half the great novels and paintings in the world wouldn't exist. And Galileo and Darwin would've had to sit on their discoveries and remained silent.
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@nothingprofound,
No, that's not what I said.
I said your chosen avatar represents you, so choose wisely. It's like choosing what to wear. You can't arrive to an interview for a bank management position in a Goth look, and expect to be judged only by your character, right? -
In a way, that is what you are saying. That I should base my choices and actions on other people's possible reactions. I'd rather do as I please and accept the consequences. If others insist on pre-judging or stereotyping me, that's their problem, not mine.
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You can base your choices and actions on other people's possible reactions, or not, that is your choice. But people can't MRI your brain the second they first meet you to see what you're really like inside, so they all use a little bit of prejudgment. If it's based on something like your race, skin color, or gender - that's bad. If it's based on what you CHOOSE to wear, or your CHOSEN avatar - that's OK in my book.
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I have no objection to their pre-judging me, I just refuse to take into account or worry about it.
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Harvey-
A lot of Freemasons see the Illuminati as rivals, not as branches of the same organization. Nonetheless, it's pretty irrelevent to the discussion at hand-- which is how the display of the Confederate flag is to be interpreted.
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The confederate flag will only fly in my home if we can get it as toilet paper.
i'd use it to wipe my ass and piss misses! -
moved
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I guess it depends on the person, some people use it as a reminder of the oppression that it once symbolized and which if they had their way would continue...aka racists, others view it no different than I would view my state flag -
I'm a Southerner, "by grace of god" ;-)
I don't own any kind of Confederate battle flag, but I also don't have a problem with them as an historical emblem.
I find it oddly interesting that people don't have a problem with someone presenting a skull and crossbones (the commonly identified symbol for pirates). People can dress as a pirate for Halloween. A popular children's show/group has a pirate as a regular character.
Pirates were/are thieves, murderers, rapists, and many other very nasty people. They had/have no positive aspect. But they've become lovable.
Confederates were generally common people fighting for what they saw as their rights to seperate, and even fighting off what they saw as invasion of their land. Some (not nearly all) had one general negative aspect -- slavery. But they've become this great evil of our history.
The Confederates need to hire pirates' public relations firm. Get their image turned around.-
The Confederacy's entire reason for existence was to defend and expand the institutions of slavery. There was no other reason. The confederate flag was not a time-honored benign symbol that was later corrupted by it's association with slavery and racism-- it was always connected with racism and slavery.
Slavery as practiced in the old South, involved a great amount of rape, murder, torture of the slaves in question.
You are correct that piracy also involved violence, but:
a.) Halloween was always about dressing as something scary;
b.) pirate crews were surprisingly democratic compared to government approved fighting ships and frequently accepted sailors of all races and nationalities;
c.) They were often perceived as fighting against oppressive forces like slavers and mercantile exploitation of colonized countries.
How much of that is myth and how much is real history, is another matter-- but there is a reason why pirate imagery has an attraction to otherwise decent people.
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I'm not going to judge anyone because they use the Confederate Flag until I get to know them.
I've been down South a lot and there are usually two types of people who wave that flag or wear it: They are proud of their Southern background (and there's nothing wrong with that) or they're KKK members (and there's really something wrong with that).
But the fact is, many evil people will pervert something for their own means. As flamingpoodle pointed out, the swastika had a different meaning until Hitler got his hands on it.-
For the record: I grew up in a small Southern town. It had/has oodles and oodles of good ol' boys and rednecks, but never heard of any KKK activity -- I never knew anyone who was a part of it or any other racist organization.
I went to a Southern university, and still I didn't ever meet anyone part of the KKK.
I now live and work in a different city (the capital), and I still don't know anyone part of the KKK.
I've seen Confederate flags here and there, in all the areas I've lived. But I haven't heard, seen, or read about KKK activity anywhere in my state in years -- and even in years back, the activity was a rare news item.
I'm 42 years old, and having lived my entire life in the South, I can say that organizations like the KKK have become more bugaboo and legend than real active clans down here. I don't argue that they don't exist at all, but really, they ain't much active in my neck of the woods.
Nowadays, when I hear about supremist organizations, they seem to all be located in the mid-west or west, rather than in the South.
I guess I need to add a section on this topic to my article on The Real, Modern South
www.totalbullgrit.com/the-real-modern-south/ -
The KKK is not a legend or bugaboo. In fact, the numbers of white supremacists have only been growing thanks to the internet. They are far more insidious now since they now choose to operate under the guise of being a legitimate, right wing grass roots operation.
Google it. They may not wear the white clocks anymore, but they're stronger than ever.
Just ask any non-white person, does racism still exist and you will get the real answer. -
The grand dragon of the Indiana KKK was on the cover of Indianapolis magazine less than 10 years ago, with the headline "The Kinder, Gentler face of the KKK". If that's not a disturbing sign of mainstreaming, I've never seen one.
But, back to the OP. I don't associate the Confederate flag with all southerners or with the Klan. When I see it displayed at a home or on a truck, I associate it with ignorant rednecks who think it's cool to parade a symbol they may know little about.
As for JJ and anyone else who uses the flag as an avatar, I judge them more by the content of their comments than by the symbol they've chosen to put forward. -
"They are far more insidious now since they now choose to operate under the guise of being a legitimate, right wing grass roots operation."
This sounds a lot like those mysterious satanic cult tales of the 80s -- They're everywhere, but they're well hidden, and that makes them even more dangerous! Your neighbor, your coworker, your pastor could be a member and you'd never know it! There are a lot of unsolved murders, aren't there -- those victims were satanic sacrifices!
"They may not wear the white clocks anymore, but they're stronger than ever."
Really? Any evidence of this?
"Google it."
Oh, of course. My googling found:
1920s: KKK membership = 4-5 million
2000s: KKK membership = 5-8 thousand
Compare to the US membership in Mensa = 50 thousand
"Just ask any non-white person, does racism still exist and you will get the real answer."
The existence of racism does not equal the wide spread and powerful existence of the KKK. And I don't have to ask "any non-white person" if racism still exists. I've seen it for myself. But I still haven't seen any real active KKK. -
@Bullgrit
In my experience, the only places I've ever actually seen KKK rallies and recruiting have been in mason-dixon line border areas. They operate in the open in Indiana and some parts of Illinois. They even have held open recruiting (linked with the militia movements of the late 90's) as far north as Brighton, MI.
I'm no expert; I'm just speaking from what I've observed. But I can say that in all my travels, I've never seen in the deeper South what I've seen in Indiana.
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I'm curious. Can someone go to the main KKK web site and see if they have the Confederate battle flag displayed? I'd have to wait till I get home, 'cause I'm not about to visit that site from my work computer.
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OK, I visited the KKK web site (from home). Oh boy, it sucks. It's like a geocities site from the 90s. I mean, really, most of our blog sites look better and more up to date than that thing. It's pitiful.
As for the Confederate flag: there is one as part of a collage which includes the American flag, the US Capital building, and Mount Rushmore.
Seeing that site confirmed to me that the KKK is not currently a viable entity to be taken too seriously. -
The KKK may not be a viable entity, but that's because other organizations have taken the leadership of the white-supremacy movement-- generally those with a more neo-Nazi ideology.
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Couldn't you interpret that also as the organization just doesn't view its web presence as its predominant recruitment tool?
I'm a part of a web design firm. Manufacturing web sites and some other industry sites also tend to not be very modern-looking.
It doesn't mean that that those companies are bust.
It means they feel it's not a priority for their target audience currently. -
Ah, yes. When evidence shoots a hole in the theory target, move the target. Or say that the target hit was only one small part of the greater theory.
I'm sure that if I gave the evidence that the neo-Nazi movement is extremely small, someone would identify another theory of what is really behind them all. -
My response directly above was to Ian Thal.
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The issue isn't whether the KKK itself is a viable organization, it's whether or not one can disentangle the Confederate flag from the history of white supremacist ideology, manifested either in terms of slavery, or racist terrorist groups like the KKK. The Confederate flag was conceived as a symbol of those forces that sought to maintain a racist order, and was seized upon in later years by those seeking to reestablish some form of racist order.
This is not the exclusive usage, but those who use the "Stars and Bars" as their icon need to be very aware that it cannot be seen without those racist connotations to a great number of people-- including Americans like myself who grew up south of the Mason-Dixon line. -
I'm scratching my head about Bullgrit's assumption that a thing has to have a robust web presence to exist in a meaningful way. Not everyone lives on the web. And why would a criminal organization operate completely in the open?
Of course, the issue in this thread is different. I defer to what Ian just said. -
“whether or not one can disentangle the Confederate flag from the history of white supremacist ideology”
-- Sadly, I don’t think it can ever be disentangled. The assholes have coopted it.
“The Confederate flag was conceived as a symbol of those forces that sought to maintain a racist order”
-- This is revisionist history.
“those who use the ‘Stars and Bars’ as their icon need to be very aware that it cannot be seen without those racist connotations to a great number of people“
-- This is true. Again, sadly.
“assumption that a thing has to have a robust web presence to exist in a meaningful way”
-- What other supposedly wide-spread and powerful organization has such a rinky-dink main web site? My local game store has a more robust and professional-looking web presence, and it’s *one* store – hardly a nationwide force of gaminess.
I see the Confederate flag as an American historical emblem, much like the “Don’t tread on me” flag, the cavalry charge bugle call, and girly nose art on WWII bombers. It’s disgusting that a racist organization coopted this for their own symbol. But, since the racist org has all but died out over the past 20 years as a real force in American culture/politics, it is sad that the Confederate flag can’t go back to its original place in American history. Maybe one day the taint will air out of it. -
> “The Confederate flag was conceived as a symbol of those forces that sought to maintain a racist order”
> -- This is revisionist history.
How is this revisionist history? The Confederacy was founded specifically because the 1860 election resulted in a president who had clear abolitionist tendencies-- and only after a conspiracy of officials in the Maryland state government failed to assassinate him on the the way to inauguration and stage a coup d'etat. The Stars and Bars was the CSA symbol.
This wasn't about "States' Rights" it was about slavery. That's why West Virginia seceded from Virginia and rejoined the Union. Slavery was an institution that the West Virginians didn't support.
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The Confederate flag means nothing to me, and I'm American!-
Could that have anything to do with having too little history in school?
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When I was a kid the confederate flag was all over the place. One of my favorite shows "The Dukes of Hazard" had it on their car "The General Lee." At that point I didn't understand the implications of it. To me the car looked cool. As I got older it became a symbol of hate. I think it's adults that turn things that have no meaning into something that has meaning. Just like nothingprofound it doesn't mean much to me.-
I think you have it reversed. The symbol had long had those racist connotations going back to the 19th century, and it was children of the 1970s and '80s who didn't or couldn't have known that.
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Were there any black folks in Dukes of Hazard? I think not.
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