Discussions
Do Schools Kill Creativity?
Posted by celticmusicfan • 7/26/09 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: creativity, education
All children are born artists, the problem is to remain artists when they grow up
-Pablo Picasso
Loic sent me this video link. I didn't know he's into TED
I remember a correspondence I keep with this writer. She already published a book, hosted a tv show about women's issues.She also told me this one incident in her childhood. The teacher asked them to draw trees. She drew her with orange leaves and blue trunks. the teacher said, that is wrong. why are you drawing a tree with orange leaves? That's it.
"If you are not prepared to be wrong, you'll never come up with anything original"
www.youtube.com/watch?v=iG9CE55wbtY
my question is: do you think schools have been and are still responsible in destroying creativity?
what do you think we should do if you are a teacher, to make it better for kids ?
User Comments
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My creativity sure isn't what it used to be.-
@Friday13 When I was in third grade I was discouraged to play the guitar because I might damage the strings. Now I could not play like a pro
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After fourth grade, they switched me from a small, colorful, art-oriented school to a big, Catholic, monochromatic, uncreative one (one that had only recently become co-ed) full of reggaeton-listening sheeple. That's where I graduated from. Yay.
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To a certain degree - I think students should be able to express themselves with their appearance, therefore I dont think its fair to make students wear a school uniform.
As for learning, I think it would be much better to spend perhaps the first 5 years of schooling life learning the basics (reading, writing, maths, basic sciences) and then the next 2 or 3 years developing those skills, and then finding the skill that they're best at and for the rest of their school life developing that one subject and have the student master that one skill rather that pointing out the ones that they're not so good at and making them practice something that they're either no good at or simply not interested in.-
@Sam1982. I totally agree. Why waste time on something that would only frustrate them as well as the parents? That story about the choreographer touched my heart. How many kids in the past as well as today who experience the same fate and end up being forced to give up their talents to make them 'acceptable"? This is really something to ponder about.
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I would have to respectfully disagree, though the reason I would is purely subjective. From my high school experience, students rarely expressed their artistic proclivities or individuality and more often expressed their social status and wealth.
I personally think uniforms do more to put the student on even ground than stifle anything.
Perhaps even in a uniform school system, fine arts or after school classes could be casual. Day-to-day, though, just helps bullies identify targets.
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I find school kills everything but the student them selves. They kill creativity, individualism, thought, religion, and anything else that makes us who we are. I homeschool my kids because of this-
@amybyrd21 That sounds really convenient and safe too.
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Not convenient . Just alot safer than sending them to school. I let them be who they want and teach what I want.
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I was with you until you got to religion. -
HEY STRANGA!!!
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When you look back at school and apply it to what you learnt and what you know now - you only remember the things that were of interest to you, and through that interest your thirst for that knowledge has (possibly subconsciously) been developed since. So as above I don't see the point in wasting a whole school career learning every topic, especially those that arent of interest. Im not saying that the basics arent essential to learn, but really, when am I ever going to need to use pythagoras therum??? learning that was a waste of time for me.
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@Sam1982. Truth to tell I didn't learn English well until I self studied in my junior year taking up Psychology. Most of the stuff I learned I picked up from reading. In high school I had below average grades in English because my subject- verb- agreement were fighting with one another . So yeah one could still graduate feeling useless until one tries through his set on interests.
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My husband felt the same way until he needed to find out the specific length of the forks he needed based on the new rake he wanted for a bike design. He couldn't for the life of him figure it out on paper and asked for my help.
I reminded him of the pythagorium theorum, and showed him how it worked, to find out the information he needed for a seemingly unrelated industry and interest. He now wishes he had paid attention in math class, because his business actually does need it.
You just never know when you're going to need the tools you thought were useless
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I studied in those times that when we were late to the school, all we had to do was stretch hands to have some eternal cane hitting and do some up and downs say like 50-100 and then cool off, that just left a very bad impression on your mind. But that never changed the way I think and do things. I respect my teachers always who ever they are and still remember them and credit them for making me today what I am. An independent person with a healthy attitude.
I feel a student should have off school time as good as spending their time studying at schools. Because creativity just doesn't switches 'on' as soon as you step inside the school. Some where down the sub conscious the mind always tends to work and that cycle should not be interrupted to nurture creativity. I don't think that schools or teachers have anything to do with this but as important is the off school time a student spends.
And I feel it's more of a psychological thing and a feeling telling students that they belong here. And let them express at any moment of time and making them feel important as anything in this world. And making them feel, are having the best time of their lives. -
Schools turn beings that nature destined for thriving self-sufficiency, into fuel for the elites to consume. Though stifling creativity is one necessary element of this
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@Agit8r Yes yes yes . A big machine is working here. Good point.
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chugga-chugga-chugga
sad but true
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@crawler quote:
Some where down the sub conscious the mind always tends to work and that cycle should not be interrupted to nurture creativity.
You got a good thing going there. I agree with you on this. -
Yes, a million times yes. I grew a dislike of art class because an art teacher told me my clouds don't look right. I wouldn't even take it in High School because I thought I sucked.
Several years down the road I realized it wasn't me. It was him. He was a bad teacher and shouldn't have a degree. For God's sake Jasper John's just throws paint on canvas and this teacher had a problem with my cloud? It took me working in an art museum to realize the teacher who taught art truly isn't an artist. More like a wannabe.-
@Shiley Yes this is what happened to my friend Karen. So instead of painting, she turned out to be a poet/writer .I think creativity needs an outlet. if you close a door another will open up....only up to a certain point. Soon no doors would open up. I am glad you worked in a museum to realize that. It's one way of getting back at him to cause you such pain. I think you should write a book about that someday :)Thanks .
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Thanks for starting this discussion. I didn't want to invest the time in watching the 20 min video in the link, but I did her Sir Ken Robinson speak at the CA Charter Conference this past year, so I have a basic idea of his views on education. I am a professional educator and have taught all ages from 5-18 and specialize in math and science. I understand why many believe that the classroom kills creativity. I have seen it over and over again in my 8 years as an educator. I love when students infuse creativity into their work and I often design lesson that require students to add their personal perspective of creative view (and this is in my math and science classes). It's a matter of educating teachers and providing them with superb professional development opportunities, so that they learn how to differentiate lessons and allow students to express themselves creatively. Also, they can learn how teach students real world applications of the things they learn, like how they can use the Pythagorean theorem in a practical way!-
@conditionalcog Your input is very valuable in this, coming from the Education field. Yes I think the way we look at education in the past hundred years is changing to meet the demands of the times.I wish there are more educators like you who will come up with brilliant ideas to make our system better.
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schools develop/creates expressiveness which is the prefix of creativity and resistancy, the suffix of creativity.-
@dosox Thanks for your point of view.Schools are indeed important in determining the person's future because after all a child spends more time in this place than at home.
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- If parentsconsign their children to spend most of their time under the influences of harried and harassed childminders, in a over-densified and unhealthy environment lacking "creativity mentors", ie. public schools, then they are in no position to point the finger at anyone other than themselves. They chose to have children and they chose to send them to public schools. The buck passing stops there.
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I will agree that parents are responsible for their own children, but that doesn't mean that all are. There is an advantage for all of society the more children are instructed in a manner that leads to thier own self-sufficiency. There is a role to be played there by creativity, and whatever degree it may be practicable, schools should let creativity nurture itself
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I think if the public schools stifle a person's creativity it's because they didn't really want it badly enough. Obstacles and discouragement will never stop someone whose hellbent on being an artist or scientist or whatever. If something's that important to you you don't give up.-
@nothingprofound quote:I think if the public schools stifle a person's creativity it's because they didn't really want it
interesting thought there.a true artist will really pursue what he/she wants no matter the cost. -
I agree - however as a child its very discouraging when you're told (by an adult) that what you're doing is "wrong" especially when you think you are right.
It can stem from the belief that those that are older than us know better - I still struggle today in a working environment, I had so many dreams of what career path I wanted to take, only for so many people to say "oh you don't want to do that". It's very discouraging. Only now at 26 am I starting to raise my middle finger to the world and find a career that will make me happy. -
Obstacles and discouragement will never stop someone whose hellbent on being an artist or scientist or whatever. If something's that important to you you don't give up.
Agreed. Tenacity is everything. -
Sam: I think it's great that you're so young-26. You've got plenty of time to recoup and kick butt.
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Thanks for the encouragement NP - I get the feeling at times that I'm past my useby date already especially with where I am with my life at the moment. But you're right I am still young and still have time to make good out of the skills I have.
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Sam, I have friends who embarked on new careers in their 40s, even their 50s, and found the fulfillment and life expression they'd always been searching for. You can do it. You will.
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- [rant] Originally, public schools were purposed to provide children with a basic education in reading writing and arithmetic. Once children were conditioned to bell ringing, authority figure obedience and the mindless repetition involved in reading, writing and ciphering, they were prepared to take their places on the assembly lines in factories.
Times certainly have changed haven't they? Parents now expect teachers to be educators, counselors, nurses, literary, musical and artistic mentors, sports coaches and ... the list seems endless.
I don't think it's fair minded for parents to level a pointing finger at public schools when it comes to stifling creativity. I'm an artist and I have witnessed that most parents stifle creativity in their own children long before they even get to kindergarten.
They begin to do so when they give their children gift wrapped toys and impatiently witness the child having fun with the wrapping paper, packing materials, and the box the toy came in. The parents eagerly wait for the child to seize the toy and when junior does seize it and experiments with it for seconds only ... when whoosh! one parents or even both swoop in and demonstrate the correct way to play with the toy. If what you think I'm saying is that parents are the primary stiflers of creativity in their own children, then you are reading me loud and clear.
Public school teachers are not literary, music and artistic mentors, sports coaches, etc. Public schools are NOT art schools, music schools, sports schools, etc. IMO it's long past time in North America for all the parents pointing fingers at public schools for stifling creativity to take a deep breath and see the crayon drawings on the wall. If they wish to see their child's creativity blossom in public schools they need a reality check. Expecting teachers to become creativity mentors while still teaching the basics, in the concrete jungles we call "public schools" means that only a few children will ever flower in the cracks and crannies there. [/rant]-
@timethief Thank you for your input in this especially that you are an artist yourself.so what you are saying is that the home is the first school and what children observe from this environment will impact how they do out there in the 'concrete jungle'.i see this happening to a relative of mine which took her years and years to recover from. and as you said in your previous post on a thread, healing is a lifelong process.
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@TT
I think you're right on the mark here. Public school teachers are just that, public school teachers. Not art professors, musicians, writers, etc. and it's unfair to expect them to be and to have all those skill sets. But it's very easy and convenient to blame the teacher when the kid doesn't turn out perfect.
I also agree with you that it is often the parents who do the stifling. In a way, I've experienced this first hand. When it was time to start focusing on some kind of career choices around the age of 14 or so, I wanted to be a musican. My family spent the next decade or so trying to convince me to get into a "real" career instead. To them, music was something you do for fun, and not to be taken seriously. It's funny how parents often have these ideas about "real" jobs being things like doctors and lawyers. I don't think I've ever heard about someone being encouraged to go into arts, unless the parents were artists themselves.
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They certainly do their best to kill it, along with ability to think independently. Then, most parents do a pretty good job of that, as well.-
I think parents more often wish for their kid to be ideal rather than unique, and do their best to squish the kid into the mold of the stereotypical "good boy/girl" because they believe that is what good parents do.
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I have seen Sir Robinson 20 minute talk on creativity several times before tonight. (The Youtube link is in the OP.) It's been something that has been passed around my homeschooling circle for a while now.
I think his point that our current schooling system is and was a product of the industrial revolution is a very interesting one. I sometimes wonder if our current economic struggles is a result of everyone going through the same schooling system that funnels everyone to go down the same road....
The subjects that are consider to be the most important are those subjects that were needed for those industrial jobs. Art isn't going to give you a "job".
Have we and are we doing our children a disservice by focusing on certain subjects and not what our/their true interest and abilities are? Have we lost the next Picasso because they have been steered away from art because it won't get him a job?
There was a time that an associates degree would guarantee you a job, and if you didn't have one it was because you didn't want one. Now students, fresh out of college, with bachelors degree are sitting at home jobless. Yes, I know the economy is tanked right now, but this is something that has been happening for a while now. Isn't that an indication that something is wrong with how our education system is set up? -
@SAHMinIL
quote:The subjects that are consider to be the most important are those subjects that were needed for those industrial jobs. Art isn't going to give you a "job".
I Also think that's one of Sir Robinson's main argument.I see that being discouraged here because it is not 'lucrative' enough. either way it is the individual who decides his destiny no matter where he came from. Thanks everybody for the input. The help shed light to this discussion. -
Yes, I do think they stunt it if not outright kill it. -
Spoonfeeding is exactly the purpose of elementary and highschool. We are not allowed to think, but only to agree with and accept what is being taught. There's no way we can abolish the educational system so the only option is to allow the kids to nourish their creative skills outside the system (at home with the family). In college, it's a different story. Students at this point are given the freedom to think independently. The only problem is that nobody teaches us how to break away from the fundamentalist ideologies we have acquired early in life.-
Thanks Ryhen. Yes, as they say:habits can make you good and bad.
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I've always felt like school hindered creativity and personal growth but not necessarily killed it, though. I rarely went. When I was there, I usually did even better than the people who were always there.
I just always thought that it's good to give your brain a rest from constricted routine and allow yourself to really think/breathe.
There's so much to learn and so many ways to learn...why limit yourself to a school building? -
The problem is their attitude. Their attitude is too heavilly focused on control, ridiculous rituals (like sitting in classrooms for long periods of time) and test-scores as supposed to what test scores symbolize. Unfortunately, the last one is engrained in the very way our system works and the need for accountability, while the two before it are connected to it.
What feeds in to our system is the self-fulfilling prophecy that you need a college-education to do something with your life. See, we all strive for that college-education, some win, some lose, and those same attitudes that got you in to college or killed you before you reach the door then either land you a good job (majority of the time unrelated to what you studied, but still very well paid) or a bad/no job (again, the poor education was the fruit, not the tree.) In the end, college is, for the majority of students, more an extremely expensive predictor of future performance then an actual step on their path to glory or the dumps. But we circulate this half-truth so much that it gets ingrained in people's psyche and, combined with social status, serves to push people on that path and by and large does.
This affects our primary and secondary systems badly by making schools believe they have to get every kid, no matter how unmotivated, unscholarly, or incompetent, in to college. How do they do this? By standardization! Remove brains, soul and freedom from education, and remove a few brain cells from everyone in the room (including the teacher) while you're at it, then stomp on their creativity, but that's okay, because the majority of these kids are going to an extremely expensive 4-year waste of cash*.
*That's not to say there aren't good reasons to get an education, such as wishing to become an Engineer like me, but the majority of students don't have them, and when you're trying to make students in to something they're not, the results aren't pretty.-
I think this highlights a general difference between what our public school system have become, compared to what pubicly funded education was intended to be by it's founders: A path to being a fully functional citizen! Consider James Madison's thoughts on publicly funded higher education in Kentucky as written to W. T. Barry:
"...it is better for the poorer classes to have the aid of the richer by a general tax on property, than that every parent should provide at his own expence for the education of his children, it is certain that every Class is interested in establishments which give to the human mind its highest improvements, and to every Country its truest and most durable celebrity. Learned Institutions ought to be favorite objects with every free people. They throw that light over the public mind which is the best security against crafty & dangerous encroachments on the public liberty... Whilst those who are without property, or with but little, must be peculiarly interested in a System which unites with the more Learned Institutions, a provision for diffusing through the entire Society the education needed for the common purposes of life."
press-pubs.uchicago.edu/founders/documents/v1ch18s35.html
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yes -
Thanks for the video. I had seen it before, but had to watch the whole of it again now. Ken Robinson is a very entertaining speaker and I had to really laugh a lot again.
But I think he is also very right. And we do have to start thinking different on the fundamental education of children. Especially to give them the opportunity to be wrong and learn from their own mistakes. Which I also think is the only way to ever come up with something original.-
I am glad you love the video. Yes he really does makes sense and he is kind of funny.I like that idea about dancing.And that creativity should not only be about mental development. it is also a physical thing.
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Yes, school greatly stunted my creativity. I remember the girls always used to draw perfect ponies, and when I tried to draw a horse, it looked like a cross between a dog and a giraffe. How I longed to draw ponies like them. Now, I still can't draw a ponies like they used to. Their pony skills have probably advanced, while mine are still stuck in the 1st grade! Damn you school! First you take away my ponies, then you take away my pride!-
LOL trailofpen, that's a funny input but it does makes sense.
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I agree with Rainhat on the stifling influence of parents. I've seen it over and over again throughout my career. I think the points regarding our overall system of education are valid. How do we define success? I ask this question to any principal, when interviewing for a job at a school, I ask this question to teachers when I'm part of a hiring committee for new teachers, and importantly I ask students to answer this question during the first and last weeks of school. I think this question is deeply tied to the heart of this conversation.
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@conditionalcog The problem here is that we are conditioned at an early age what success is all about. Children are after all the light of the future. What the world will become someday is the result of how adults condition these kids to be, and how they are made to think.But I think ore and more parents learned from this especially those in the Gen X. I guess there is hope!
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The answer is yes, and no. I was lucky to have some incredible teachers and have some of the best do wonders for creativity school-wide. But sadly fitting the mold is more important to many teachers and administrators (And governments!)than the gifted children we are blessed to have.-
Christi! You are back. Thanks for sharing
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Thanks Celticmusicfan! I am in and out these days...too busy with grandkids!
:-) (A good thing!)
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I think we could place blame at quite a few doorsteps if discussing a "lack of creativity."
Certainly one could argue about whether their creative streak was enhanced or blocked by their school experience (as well as what in particular worked or did not work, as "school" by itself can consist of numerous different levels of education throughout our development).
Like most things in life though, I think real education has to start at the home. Don't send your kid to "school" and think "but, I thought YOU were supposed to teach me creativity?"
If you want your kids to be creative, give them tasks that encourage independant thought and creativity....you know, as opposed to just plopping 'em down in front of SpongeBob or the video games for 12 hours a day. :-)-
Horseboy, is that YOU??? Welcome back!! -
Your pony avatar mocks me.
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You know what? that drawing looks good in this thread. and I am not making some B.S. I mean it.
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he is I and I is him. :-)
Just galloping through a bit here. Been so busy with things lately.
Oh yes, and as for the avatar - Curlin mocks all who would face him (were he not retired now), or who would dare face his soon-to-be girlfriend Rachel Alexandra. :-) -
Celtic don't lie. I'm thinking about opening up a deviantART account dedicated to pony drawings now.
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@kdawg
Welcome back -
You should! Spread the smile to everyone you meet
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@ trailofpen - this is the only creative thing i've seen here so far. I wish to be your student. Can I call you master?
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Yes grasshopper. Let the pony run within you!
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@Celtic M F
In regards to your responses about the drawing. Which end were you looking at when you said it looks good?
@Kdawg68
< Smiling to see you here again.
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Parents should help their kids to be creative by monitoring what they have at the school. School and Parents should cooperate for the success of the kid.-
Too bad some parents prefer to have them TVset. That's what usually happens here. parents quit, teachers get to be blamed or the other way around.Thanks for your input cil.
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Schools are part of the problem, but our entire culture is destructive of creativity. It starts with small children who are forced into sensory overload with gadgets and gizmos. Their play is structured. Children are not allowed to just go out in the yard and play. They absorb a dumbed down media. Even sitcoms were smarter with more historical and cultural references in the 1960s and 1970s. Creativity is on the endangered species list across the entire spectrum.
edgycater.blogspot.com-
Catholic school girls unite!
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hmm... my schools encouraged my creativity for the most part, the only exception being catholic school -
Hummm I went and grew up in catholic schools (though not catholic anymore) and I would have to say that they did NOT allow or encourage creativity. Too many rules so that you couldn’t think outside the box back then, which is why I never liked school and couldn’t wait to get out.
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teachers kill creativity! -
School pretty much killed my will to live. -
I believe that schools play a part in stunting creativity... as a former employee of quite a few different schools, I have seen how, even if employees want to encourage the children, administrations tend to loose touch with the student body and treat them like collateral... -
Ok, here's my serious opinion...
Humans have a higher learning ability than animals. That is common sense, indeed. However, scientists are convinced that it can be the primary reason why we ended up the way we are today. Apes learn by copying behavior, but as soon as they find an easier way to do things, they'll go immediately for that option even if you give them rules. On the other hand, young kids strictly follow every single bit of movement or behavior they see from adults and other kids even if they find an easier alternative.
Is that bad? Not at all. This appears to be what's enabling us to acquire limitless amount of skills. We are able to copy more than what animals can copy. If schools are really that bad because we're not allowed to use our right brain, the internet wouldn't exist and we wouldn't be here on this website to talk about how schools destroy our creative instincts. Just take in consideration the fact that Larry and Sergey "studied" mathematics and computer science before they were able to come up with the creative idea they called Google. Other than that, isn't it that every single gadget or gizmo you're using at home is the product of creativity? If I invent a microwave oven or a television, isn't that creative? Are these things not made by people who went to schools? I can mention dozens of other examples, but I guess this is enough to get the point across.
Some may argue that there are many people who contributed to society without even going to schools. That's true to some extent. But the contributions of people who went to schools are apparently greater. The only reason why you think schools are bad or good is that you're trying to take sides. How the hell do you categorize if something is good or bad? Are you talking from your own experience? Are you relying on opinions you've heard from people? Do you even know where your opinion is coming from?
Anyway, I guess this is enough. I'm just going to grab myself a beer, live cheerfully, and reminisce my hot high school teacher. -
"Nature and the mind of the Universe have seen to it that every new Man is born a sovereign, a king! He is like an angel – pure and undefiled. Through the still soft part of his head he takes in a huge flood of information from the Universe. The abilities inherent in each newborn child are such as to allow him to become the wisest creature in the Universe, God-like. It takes him very little time to bestow grace and happiness upon his parents. During this period – accounting to no more than nine earth-years – he becomes aware of what constitutes creation and the meaning of human existence. And everything that he needs to accomplish this already exists. Only the parents should not distort the genuine, natural structure of creation by cutting the child off from the most perfect works in the Universe." -
An interesting bit of psychology I learned in art school was the ritualistic unlearning of creativity (with regards to art and perception) that happens when young children begin institutionalized learning.
Everything is reverted from how it actually appears, to symbols of the object. Ask a young child to draw a house or other simple object and they will try to draw what they see. Ask an older child to draw the same thing and they will give you a symbol of the object, which looks nothing like the real thing. Then the kids take years trying to relearn how to draw what they see instead of the symbols they learned.
Just sayin' -
No, I think society has killed creativity
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let's call the cops then?
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