Discussions
Do you belive that Health Care is a right as a human being or a privledge?
Posted by JamieLay • 10/12/08 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: health, insurance, life, money, politics
Since this topic keeps poping up in the presidential debate, I was wondering what people really thought? Is Health Care a right such as the right to bare arms, freedom of speech..etc? Or is it a privledge to those that can afford to pay for insurance?
I personally get upset when I see innocent people with/without health insurance loose their quality of life because of politics and greedy health insurance companies.....
User Comments
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Health care is not contingent upon insurance, though it does help (obviously). Just look at the third world nations, for example.
I have met philanthropic doctors (Doctors Without Borders, Helping Hands, and so many big and small NGO's) giving to those without insurance or means to pay. That being said, doctors should be paid for what they do, yet it has become increasingly more about money and profit than the welfare of people.
Health care is not a *right* but a gift.-
You are right. Insurance does help to get your foot in the door. I guess the cost is the bottom line. SHould people go bankrupt becausethey got cancer....I think the US needs to look outside the box and see how other countries are solving this problem.
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If our gov't (US) was not waging unnecessary wars, bailing out Wall Street, and giving out billions in foreign aid then it could easily afford health care for all taxpayers.
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Hi Jamie,
There's been some discussion of this tin the political forum. www.blogcatalog.com/politics/discuss/entry/health-care-the-2008-election-
Oh, thanks. I thought someone probably had talked about this before. I will read the links...however who really knows if McCain or Obama will be able to afford/follow through with their helth plans!
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It's a positive right, not a right.
everything2.com/index.pl?node=positive rights
"Positive rights are privilidges that are claimed to be rights. A positive right is one that requires another entity to do something in order to fulfill the right. A good example is the right to eat. You have the right to eat. You don't have the right to food. The second requires someone else to provide you with food. The maxim that "positive rights don't exist" means that a right isn't really a 'right' if it requires someone else to do something."
*credit to FP as well.
It wouldn't bother me if people had equal access to Healthcare though. Whether or not they deserve it is another topic. But I don't mind.-
You are right, a positive right. I like that.
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No.
Health care is not a right, it is a service, just like hair dressing. You have to pay for any service, because someone had to invest their time, money and effort into acquiring the necessary skills to perform that service.
If you can't pay for a hair cut, then you should grow your hair long. If you can't pay for medical services, then you should ensure that you don't get sick.
To say that health care is a right implies that the state has the right to enslave certain health care workers in order to provide this service.-
agreed
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I agree. I just wonder if their should be a "policing" of sorts of insurance companies who profit of of people and end up denying claims. But can you take Insurance companies out of the health care equation?
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Buying insurance is like taking a bet against yourself.
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Yes, and betting with your health is not a good bet to have to place. I think health insurance should reward individuals that take good care of themselves..weight, diet, excercise, health history. That may force some to rethink their lifestyle if it costs them more!
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The problem is that some people who may suffer from AIDS, are allowed to take out health insurance in my country. Since your HIV status is private information, the health insurance company is not really allowed to enquire for that information. You can't be rejected for health insurance based on your HIV status, since that would amount to discrimination.
The result is that healthy, able bodied people have to pay the rates for those who aren't able bodied. This means that the insurance companies often refuse to pay our your claims because they have insufficient funds. My compassion starts running thin when I'm pulling on the short end of the stick. -
What country to you live in? I am not sure what the US policy is on that "don't ask" HIV. The short end of the stick is not the fun side to be one. I hear ya!
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"Therefore, to the one who is unemployed or employed without health insurance, should they not receive the same health care benefits given to illegals? I think so."
If they are in other comparable circumstances, they do. I'm not sure that I understand what you're saying/asking. -
Hello!
I didn't want to post a long response on the board, so here it is:
cosmopolite-kaffeeklatsch.blogspot.com/2008/10/health-care-is-same-as-haird... -
deun- great post..you can't compare hair to health care!!
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The debate goes on!
deunadiana vs. flamingpoodle part 2:
cosmopolite-kaffeeklatsch.blogspot.com/2008/10/mariecel-vs-flamingpoodle-ro...
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YES...at least, "emergency healthcare". Every person should be eligible for this.
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In our local hospital, illegal immigrants get FREE emergency medical care, whereas tax abiding, legal citizens have to pay up the wazoo, insurance or not. What is wrong with this picture??
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Yes..emergencies do happen. Life happens..everyone gets sick o matter how healthy you are.
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Global- I agree, sometimes our country is nicer to those out side of our boarders. There is something seriouly wrong there!!
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@ globalgirl...
That system is backwards isn't it? -
Yes - that's a little odd.
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@globalgirl
Indeed what's wrong with compassion? Should everything be measured in dollars and cents? Jesus who you allege to be a follower of, is alleged to have associated with the poor and with people of all classes and is depicted as urging his followers to feed the hungry and heal the sick.
The New Testament teachings instruct believers not to worship mammon. Mammon is a term that was used to describe riches, avarice, and worldly gain in Biblical literature. It was personified as a false god in the New Testament.
How then does an American Christian take the position of installing a cash register where their hearts should be on the issue of access to basic health care for all? I just don't get it.
This one example of what you perceive to be a problem in the system points out that if a citizen from another country, who lacked money and insurance, was sick or injured that they would receive hospital treatment in America due to compassion (The Hippocratic Oath). Perhaps when viewed through that lens the situation is not as problematic as you may think. After all the immigrants in America both legal and illegal are all working their butts off working to serve native born Americans, in jobs that most Americans turn their noses up at. -
Yes you are right. Compassion seems to lack. What if you took out health insurance companies completly and instead..people would may a "membership fee" every month to belong to a hospital of their choice..where you could get all your services under one roof? Just a under developed thought..
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I really don't get how American Christians got into this discussion about health care... There are more then just Christians running the medical needs game.
I think that Health care should be available to everyone, not just the ones who have the money or insurance to pay for it... I do think the insurance companies need to be better regulated.. Too many hard working people go without the simplest health care needs because of the cost or being denied by the Medical Insurance "gods"! -
Articulates- Exactly. Now is that so hard for people to figure out? I guess it is.
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Oh TimeThief, here you go again.
The issue is that a legal citizen in the US, without insurance, are forced to have to pay out of pocket for emergency health care, while illegal immigrants get a free ticket. This has absolutely nothing to do with Jesus, but everything to do with injustice. Illegals should not have a free ticket with health care, subsidized by US tax paying citizens.
Free health care should not be given to some and not others. What is so difficult to understand about that? Let the government (our tax dollars) pay for all or none. Not some. All or none. -
"In our local hospital, illegal immigrants get FREE emergency medical care, whereas tax abiding, legal citizens have to pay up the wazoo, insurance or not. What is wrong with this picture??"
I'd guess accuracy. Can you provide any documentation of this policy? -
@MadameX:
I saw a sign in the local emergency room earlier this year and I was floored. I don't have a copy of what I read, but the link below gives useful info about tax dollar supporting the health care of illegal immigrants:
Some states, including New York, Illinois and Washington, as well as several California counties, cover illegal immigrant children with state tax dollars. "Kids are the more sympathetic group, and they're less costly," says Sonal Ambegaokar of the National Immigration Law Center, an advocacy group for low-income immigrants.
Since 2003, California's San Mateo County has used local tax dollars as well as money from hospitals and non-profit groups to provide health insurance to all low-income children, regardless of immigration status. "These children are in our schools. They're part of our community," says Beverly Thames, spokeswoman for the county health department. "It's just important that they have access to health care."
San Francisco goes further, adding adults at local expense. Some cities, including New York, encourage illegal immigrants to use public services such as health clinics without risking deportation.
Direct federal aid has been minimal, but in 2003, Congress appropriated $1 billion over four years for hospitals and other health care providers that serve illegal immigrants. More than 15,000 providers have registered for payments, according to the Centers for Medicare and Medicaid Services.
Source: www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2008-01-21-immigrant-healthcare_N.htm -
Okay, what you say here makes much more sense. I am proud to be a citizen of the first state which extended medical coverage to the children of illegal immigrants, so what you've posted here isn't unfamiliar to me at all--but it also doesn't indicate what your original post suggested. Illegal immigrants are not receiving a benefit that is not available to U.S. citizens in similar circumstances, but simply being afforded the same access to healthcare as a citizen would receive in the same circumstances.
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The difference is that illegal immigrants have never paid into the system to receive such benefits. Therefore, to the one who is unemployed or employed without health insurance, should they not receive the same health care benefits given to illegals? I think so.
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What makes the system worse..is if you are a illegal worker..yes you are not paying taxes to help pay for your expenses, or state taxes, social security....
Children are however innocent victims and should be provided health care. -
I got what you were saying global girl the first time, I know this happens as I saw it myself the last time I went to the ER with my Mom, the check in process is like an assembly line, and well no privacy, you can basically hear everyone's biz. I heard the intake receptionist tell a family to as they sat down, Insurance? they shook thier head no, No problem as long as you are not a citizen we can't charge you.
So it does happen, at least here it does. And honestly who knows if they were really illegal aliens or not. -
Kat, to the obvious chagrin of some here, thanks for sharing your experience. I love the truth as there is so much power in it. Some, as you see, are quite testy about it. It is an outrage. Not my problem, directly, but one our culture needs to address: fair health coverage for illegals and the uninsured or none at all, for all.
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Kat- I feel bad that you ever had to even experience the ER. You need to read my post on mine: jamieandtnt.blogspot.com/2008/03/jamies-episode-4-sitting-in-er-waitng.html There never is any urgency in the emergency room!
GG- You are right..It has to all or none. -
It really should be pointed out that illegal immigrants do pay taxes. Companies cook their books by creating false SSN's that they report to the IRS and pay taxes on. Because the illegals are unable to file tax returns, this tax money is pure profit for the US government. Numerous studies have been done that show illegal immigrants are by far a net profit for both the US government and the companies that hire the workers.
Simple fact is illegals are paying for these services, yet people are trying to deny them access to it because they either don't know, or choose to ignore that these people are paying taxes.
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I think that the key is preventative care. Like a car we need to maintain our health. Preventive care will help bring down doctor's visits and the need for extended care. We also need to stop pumping our bodies full of things we don't need. It is not necessary to get a flu shot every year. I have never had one and rarely get sick. We also don't need our children to have 16 different vaccines. We don't need to take antibiotics every time we have a sniffle. Our bodies are wonderful things that are able to fight off disease.
I do think that the elderly and very young should have the *right* to health care. The elderly live on a fixed income. It is a disgrace to have our older people eating cat food because their prescriptions take away all their income.
Little children should have health care. Not every parent can afford to pay for insurance. Their children shouldn't suffer. A lot of people do their best to make ends meet but can't afford to take their child to the dentist. It's horrible.-
Yes,yes, yes! I have never been given a flu shot...why would I want last years strand that has already mutated anyway? NO thanks. Preventive care is key. I think we should be teaching our youth in school Human Biology and health care. So they know how to take care of their body, what major signs of illness are..as far as the fact that we have gone from 8 vaccines in the 80's to 36 now..just shows how money infulence healthcare!
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I agree on the elderly and the children. You should also be able to shop in any country you want for prescriptions..if it is cheaper in Canada..why should people not be able to buy there? I guess we can keep lining the pockets of the Pharmacuitcal companies!
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Buying insurance may be like taking a bet against yourself, but, the odds are stacked against you with the insurance companies. They hold the cards and change the decks when it pleases them.-
Yes. Why should they be allowed to practice bad business practices?
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Why were the banks allowed to? I could be wrong, but I think it's called unregulated capitalism and it seems to be worshiped like a god in America.
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Buying insurance is not always voluntary, so it's not always capitalist.
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I think is is a slippery slope..I do believe banks..health insurance companies need to be regulated..but then it seems that everytime the governemtn gets involved..they screw it up. So which is the worse of the two evils?
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is it a "right" no.
Should people be allowed to go "bankrupt" I guess that depends on how much their health is worth to them.
Should able bodied people be allowed to choose not to work and get services paid for by others.
Absolutely not.-
I agree that you can't sit on your butt, and get free health care..but it happens all the time. IT is the only thing our government is good at...help those that don't earn it and dumping on the ones who really need it! As so the story goes....
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"IT is the only thing our government is good at...help those that don't earn it"
Can you provide an example of our government being "good at" helping those who don't earn it? -
Yes, in all the cases where Hospitals are going bankrupt from giving free health care on the boarder states to illegals.
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I'm afraid I can't make any sense out of that. If the government is providing the benefits, then why are the hospitals going bankrupt? And if it's the hospitals providing the services, then how is this an example of the government providing benefits to those who haven't earned them?
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The law mandates that they provide health services for many services.
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Assuming that's true, it's still not really an example of the government providing help, is it?
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Measuring Poverty in the United States
The United States defines poverty in absolute terms. This is the threshold below which families or individuals are considered to be lacking the resources to meet the basic needs for healthy living: insufficient income to provide the food, shelter and clothing needed to preserve health. The European Union, on the other hand, measures poverty in relative terms. This is defined as having significantly compromised access to income and wealth than other members of society: an income below 60% of the national median equalized disposable income after social transfers for a comparable household ec.europa.eu/employment_social/news/2001/oct/i01_1395_en.html
If poverty in the United States were to be defined in relative terms as determined by the European Union, the level would be much higher.
Poverty in the United States is measured in two ways. The first, defined by the U.S. Census Bureau, measures the poverty thresholds. Poverty thresholds classify households by type of residence, race, and other social, economic, and demographic characteristics. This data generally used for statistical purposes in order to to estimate the number of people in poverty nationwide. The second measure is the poverty guideline. Used by the U.S. Department of Health and Human Services, it determines whether a person or family is eligible for assistance through various federal programs.
According to the U.S. Census Bureau, in 2005, nearly 12.6% of the United States' population, or thirty-seven million people live in poverty. Minorities face higher levels of poverty, with 24.9% of African-Americans living in poverty and 21.8% of Hispanics. Furthermore, poverty rates for children under the age of eighteen remained higher than those between the age of eighteen and sixty four, at 17.6%.
Read the full report by the U.S. Census Bureau www.census.gov/hhes/www/poverty/poverty.html
Top Ten Lists:
* States with the Highest Poverty Rates
www.nccbuscc.org/cchd/povertyusa/povfact4.shtml
* Counties with the Highest Poverty Rates
www.nccbuscc.org/cchd/povertyusa/povfact5.shtml
* Cities with the Highest Poverty Rates
www.nccbuscc.org/cchd/povertyusa/povfact6.shtml
* Cities with the highest child poverty rates
www.nccbuscc.org/cchd/povertyusa/povfact7.shtml
* Top Ten States with the Highest Percentage of Low Income, Uninsured Children
www.nccbuscc.org/cchd/povertyusa/povfact8.shtml
* Top Ten States with the Greatest Increase in Poverty
www.nccbuscc.org/cchd/povertyusa/povfact9.shtml
* States Experiencing a Decrease in Poverty
www.nccbuscc.org/cchd/povertyusa/povfact10.shtml
* Top Ten States with Highest Percentage of Children Living in Poverty
www.nccbuscc.org/cchd/povertyusa/povfact11.shtml-
Our poverty % also goes up because we let almost anyone in this country for a fresh start..and they tend to make our stats go up as well as our taxes. When you have people in poverty flocking here for help..it tends to bog down our already "sad" system. We take care of those that don't pay into the system, and turn our backs on those who have been paying taxes.
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USA - Poverty - Healthcare - Women & their Children
In 2005, over 14 percent of American women lived in poverty. Among single mothers, this number rose to over 31 percent. This is clearly unacceptable, both for the women and families immediately affected and for society as a whole.
- Nearly 1 in 4 girls does not graduate from high school
- Female dropouts earn on average 7 percent below the Federal Poverty Line for a family of three ($15,520 vs. $16,600) while women with high school diplomas earn on average 32 percent above that level ($21, 936 vs. $16,600)
- Girls make up 87 percent of students in traditionally female fields such as cosmetology and childcare and only 15 percent of those in traditionally male fields. Those who enter traditionally female occupations can generally expect to earn half—or less—of what they would earn in a traditionally male field
- Women still earn on average 78 cents for every dollar paid to men.
Women and the Individual Health Insurance Market: It's No Shopper's Paradise nwlc.blogs.com/womenstake/2008/09/women-and-the-i.html
Many Americans are unfamiliar with the harsh realities of the individual health insurance market because they receive health insurance through an employer. action.nwlc.org/insurance
However, as a number of prominent health care reform proposals consider expanding the role of the individual market, it is important to understand how this system fails women.
Download NWLC's new report, Nowhere to Turn: How the Individual Health Insurance Market Fails Women. action.nwlc.org/insurance -
- Nearly 1 in 4 girls does not graduate from high school?
WOW!!!!
Honest question here... How come we don't here about this more on the news?
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what about the countless people who can cross our borders, have babies, emergency care, and the like, and just leave? how fair is that?
do i blame them? absolutely not. if i had a sick child and needed to go to mexico i would do the same thing. it is the US's responsibility to make sure they are regulated. i have been a citizen all my life, and my credit was ruined for years behind not being able to pay off an emergency medical bill that my insurance decided not to cover. is it fair that i couldnt get anything, but people can come here and basically get it for free? its time we stopped blaming the people for their actions and blame those who allow it.-
Universal access to basic health care may not be a "right" in America but isn't it a reasonable expectation of citizens in a country that's among the richest on the planet?
Obviously American citizens who lack adequate food, shelter, clothing medical care, and education (job training) are unable to contribute as much to the tax base as those who do have means contribute. So why waste your time worrying about illegal immigrants who receive compassionate care when the poverty stats for American citizens are before you?
Why not focus on addressing the needs of the American citizens who are living in poverty so they get a hand up the ladder and can contribute more taxes? -
It is true, a mom will do anything to help her child..legal or not. Maybe to help this problem we could help other countries beef up their services..so they stay on their homeland and improve their own country? Preventing our tires system from getting bogged down more? OR are we already to deep in the hole to get out?
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I think every human being has the right to emergency health care ... and basic healthcare if it helps prevent emergency health care.
Living in Canada, I could probably be capitalizing on this a little more and same with the group insurance plan for the extras ... It's all factored into either our wages or our taxes.-
So does the government promote healthly life styles to cut costs? Is it true you have to wait in line for weeks to get in to the doctor? Just wondering if you end up having great government controlled health care.
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No, it's not a right. It's hard to conceive of some kind of inherent right that requires active participation on the part of others. "Life", for instance, is a fundamental right--but that means only that we must refrain from killing one another, not that we have an affirmative obligation to go around doing everything we can to save one another.
That said, it's hard for me to understand why we even need to decide whether or not it's a "right". In what kind of civilized society do we say, "Oh, look...this child is going to die of a perfectly curable disease, but health care isn't a 'right', so that's not my problem."? -
Well, 80% of health issues are a direct result of lifestyle choices, at least for the first 50 years of life - smoking, drinking, obesity, bad driving habits, working environments where people CHOSE to work.
So, should everyone else supplement their bad choices in life?
All those "sin" taxes they put on us - alcohol, tobacco and public safety fines - just go into the government's coffers and not towards health care, so it's just another money scam to rape the public!
Health care is not a right, and once the government has control over your health, they have total control over you!
What about "alternative" or "herbal" treatments? Where is the line drawn on what's a right?
Socialized health care is nothing more than communism!
If you're a communist, then go for it!-
Yup!
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"Well, 80% of health issues are a direct result of lifestyle choices, at least for the first 50 years of life - smoking, drinking, obesity, bad driving habits, working environments where people CHOSE to work."
I hear numbers like this thrown around quite a bit, but no one ever seems to be able to provide any kind of documentation--and no wonder, since there are so many variables in play that it would be virtually impossible to ever accurately assess such a thing. -
wrong placement
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Absolutely.
Gotta say, looking at this thread, it's amazing how supposed followers of Jesus always seem to lead the charge against compassion.-
The issue has nothing to do with compassion as much as offering equal services to all. Period.
FYI, I've been a part of many medical missions trips and volunteer opps in Guatemala.
I am all for free medical services, but it must be for all or none. Imagine a small business owner with no insurance. She has paid her taxes faithfully and gets injured mountain biking. She makes a run to the emergency room and has to pay out of pocket an enormous fee for her care. On the other side, you have an illegal immigrant who suffers the same fate on her mountain bike, yet, when she goes to the emergency room, her fees are free.
Free health care for all, not just illegal immigrants. Or else we all pay.
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Yes.
Has to do with the golden rule. -
Yes. -
Heaven help us all!!!LOL
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@globalgirl
Hmmm ... who was it that the bible characterizes as being the Father of Lies? And what are depicted as his modes of operation in the world? Oh right, they were delusion - distraction - deception - denial
And what was the greatest commandment of them all?
Who do you love?
Who do you have compassion for?
Where does your compassion commence and where does it end?
Where does "the worship of the almighty American buck" fit into walking the talk?-
The Almighty American Buck is a evil weapon..that loves no one.
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TimeThief: What are you saying? That there should be unequal treatment of health services in the US? All people deserve health care. Each and everyone.
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@globalgirl
What I said stands on record in this thread and your attempt to place words in my mouth is an affront to everyone's intelligence.
You did not say that you believed all people deserve healthcare. You went off on an anti-immigrants receiving health care tangent. www.blogcatalog.com/discuss/entry/do-you-belive-that-health-care-is-a-right...
Your attempts to change the course of the tack you that you were originally on by returning to threads and injecting additional comments now are being observed by many members. Doing this does not enhance your credibility here in this thread any more than it does when you do the same in your posts to the political forum.
Free health care for all, not just illegal immigrants.
You came up with that long after Madame X and I called you on your stance against illegal immigrants receiving health care, and after petlvr posted saying: "I think every human being has the right to emergency health care ... and basic healthcare if it helps prevent emergency health care.-
TimeThief: Stop it. You are the one who drives many, many people bananas and off these boards! It is so funny to me that you are so blind to not see this. Oh well.
Getting back to my position, it remains unchanged. Read my posts again - or maybe your eyes are hurting again and you are having a bad day?
If so, let me repeat myself again:
I do not believe in giving FREE health care to illegal immigrants without also giving free medical care to the unemployed and uninsured.
Your mean spiritedness comes through all the time towards Christians; always trying to discredit, accuse and belittle. Today is no different.
Why do I even bother responding to you when you are so, um, hostile?
**Yawn** -
@gg Timethief's comment made perfect sense, and was, I think, far too kind in response to the blind hatred you've expressed in this thread.
[edited: okay, I see you've changed your tack midway through this discussion to say that you're for healthcare for all--that's very nice of you, but don't pretend it's what you've been saying all along. We're not stupid] -
"TimeThief: Stop it. You are the one who drives many, many people bananas and off these boards! It is so funny to me that you are so blind to not see this. Oh well."
It's entirely possible for multiple people to be simultaneously annoying.
"I do not believe in giving FREE health care to illegal immigrants without also giving free medical care to the unemployed and uninsured."
Yet, you've provided no evidence whatsoever that this happens. -
globalgirl:"I do not believe in giving FREE health care to illegal immigrants without also giving free medical care to the unemployed and uninsured."
MadameX: "Yet, you've provided no evidence whatsoever that this happens."
Good reason for that: it's not true. She's simply been called on her hateful stance and is trying to pretend to have said something different.
In fact, the hospital sign that gg said "floored" her, said the following (quoting from her own post above:
"Since 2003, California's San Mateo County has used local tax dollars as well as money from hospitals and non-profit groups to provide health insurance to all low-income children, regardless of immigration status."
Did you see that last clause: ALL...REGARDLESS OF IMMIGRATION STATUS.
In other words, what you started out saying you're against is in fact what you're now claiming to be for. What does the Bible say about "bearing false witness" again? -
You guys are hysterical.
Please read people. If an uninsured person goes to the emergency room, they pay for it out of their pocket. If an illegal immigrant goes to an emergency room in California it is free. Disturbing.
How tiring it is to keep saying it, yet some are not listening.
www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2008-01-21-immigrant-healthcare_N.htm
Oh DrJay, you made me laugh with your drama. Thanks.
**Yawn**
(Note to self: Don't engage with some folks on BC. Life is simpler, peaceful, and more beautiful) -
Look at what I quoted from your own post.
We are listening, otherwise we wouldn't be able to tell that you're lying.
(note to you: life would be simpler, more peaceful and more beautiful if you stopped being so hateful) -
Lying? This is way too funny. Lying about what?!
Too funny.
Hateful towards whom? You sound like a, oh, nevermind.
Peace. -
GlobalGirl, you've provided no indication that that's accurate. You said that you saw a sign and didn't know exactly what it said. Then you quoted at length from something that DIDN'T make the distinction you keep repeating. The article you linked to here ALSO doesn't say what you keep repeating.
I'll agree with your "Yawn", though..it IS very tedious when someone keeps repeating the same lie over and over again.
Edited to Add: Lying about the claim that illegal immigrants have access to free medical care that is not available to similarly situated Americans. It is simply not true. The article YOU provided clearly indicates that it's not true. The text YOU quoted clearly indicates that it's not true. I'm surprised and confused by the fact that you'd make up something so easily disputed, but I can't think of any other explanation, since you're posting evidence to the contrary even as you keep insisting on this point. -
I've laid it right out, as did timethief.
Go ahead and laugh. I certainly wouldn't expect you to learn anything.
Goodnight. -
MadameX: What lie? That I saw the sign in the emergency room of California Hospital? That the illegal immigrants were getting free health care while uninsured have to pay for it? What *lie* are you accusing me of? I know I am not lying and such is quite freeing indeed.
Why am I wasting my time explaining something to those who clearly have no ears?
This is so clearly absurd and comical, I must leave and laugh out loud.
Toodles. -
There was a sign in the emergency room that said, "If you are an illegal immigrant, your medical care is free no matter how much money you have, and if you are an American citizen you have to pay no matter how poor you are"? Yep, if that's what you're claiming, then I think you're lying. Or that your reading comprehension is far lower than I've always believed. And I'm further confused by the fact that you keep posting text and links that contradict your own statement.
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Who isn't listening?
Here's what I wrote above, clearly showing your lie:
In fact, the hospital sign that gg said "floored" her, said the following (quoting from her own post above:
"Since 2003, California's San Mateo County has used local tax dollars as well as money from hospitals and non-profit groups to provide health insurance to all low-income children, regardless of immigration status."
Did you see that last clause: ALL...REGARDLESS OF IMMIGRATION STATUS. -
Time out, people. Deep breaths all around.
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Oh dear me.
Again, I will repeat: The sign in the emergency room stated something along the lines of: Illegal immigrants get free health care. Period. End of story.
My opinion about health care is that legal immigrants or citizens should have access to free health care as well. No lying here.
But interpret as you will.
Yawn. -
Period?
So you wholly manufactured the part about American citizens having to pay regardless of financial circumstances? -
GG: Your claim is that Illegal Immigrants are being treated better than US Citizens. Without any evidence to support this ridiculous claim. -
MadameX: Most Americans know that the uninsured pay for health care out of their own pocket and such is the outrage these days. Or, perhaps you have not noticed? If you are privy to the uninsured getting free health care, please tell us who provides it so those that lack such benefits can go and get this service.
Thanks. The uninsured will also thank you. -
GlobalGirl, I have noticed that many uninsured Americans qualify for Medicaid. I have also noticed that most hospitals offer programs which radically reduce or even entirely forgive hospital bills for the uninsured in circumstances of financial hardship. I am not sure how you could possibly have FAILED to notice this, except perhaps that your hatred of illegal immigrants is so extreme that it blinds you to the facts.
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I am one of the uninsured.
Regardless of that I do thank Madame X for wasting time with me here when we both could be doing something more constructive than trying to argue with you when you've already been proven wrong over and over and over. -
I'm not arguing with her, Jay. I'm just providing facts for anyone who might come along later and read this thread and actually be interested in the truth. You can't really combat evil, but you can sometimes limit its spread.
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Oh Mercy MadameX:
I don't "hate" illegal immigrants. You are quite funny. My personal life and work indicates that I have great compassion for the poor and destitute.
As stated before, illegal immigrants, HOWEVER, should not get a free ride when tax abiding citizens have to pay for health care out of their own pocket. What is so difficult to comprehend about this? Many uninsured don't have medicaid, or have you not noticed?
My. How many times must I clarify and repeat my stance? -
You can clarify all night and all day and as long as your objection is based on a total fabrication, it isn't going to make you look any better. I'm glad that you're finding this so amusing--personally, I find it very sad.
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What exactly is the fabrication you speak of? This is so, um, weird.
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A us citizen who is uninsured. Will eventually get a bill. In some cases, that bill will be reduced, or even forgiven this is true.
Illegal aliens are rarely traceable, and exists outside the system. As soon as they walk out the doors, they will never see that bill again. Simply because there is nothing to tie them to it.
A US citizen may be forgiven, or have their bill reduced. They may also not have that benefit. Which means that they will see their credit score affected and might be caused to declare bankruptcy.
An illegal alien never has to worry about that. Their money is safe.
Maybe not treated better by policy, but certainly fairing better by circumstance. -
putting words in peoples mouths? hummmm ironic
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I know, Kat, that is why I like this thread. It shows how some people twist things, while revealing glaring insecurities and bitterness.
Same people again, again and again. Purposefully misinterpreting and mischaracterizing words, opinions and other.
@CSI, thanks for your input.
L.A. Emergency Rooms Full of Illegal Immigrants
Overburdened by the uninsured and overwhelmed by illegal immigration, public health care in Los Angeles is on life support. Sixty percent of the county's uninsured patients are not U.S. citizens. More than half are here illegally. About 2 million undocumented aliens in Los Angeles County alone are crowding emergency rooms because they can't afford to see a doctor.
"The hospitals are closing because of the totality of the uninsured," said Dr. Thomas Garthwaite, director of the Los Angeles County Health Department (search). "If you're legally a resident in California and you're poor, you have a right to basic services."
But some critics say the taxpayers can't be the HMO to the world. Last year, Los Angeles County spent $340 million to treat the uninsured; that's roughly $1,000 for every taxpayer.
"We're citizens here. Why should somebody from another country that's here illegally get anything that we can't get? I mean that's dumb, that's not right," said Don Schenck, whose son, Bill, is mentally disabled.
Source: www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,150750,00.html -
What GG is saying is due to the fact that a hospital collection offices know that they will have a easier time tracking down a legal american citizen than trying to chase after a illegal for many reasons:
1. Many illegals do/do not speak or read english..so they can't fully fill our the proper forms.
2. Illegals commonly don't have steading phone numbers, home addresss, social secuirty number..etc. Making it hard to bill them or collect $.
3. By law the hospital cannot turn anyone away that is illegal or has no insurance...it is just easier to chase down americans and bill them. -
Yes, Jamie, you got it, along with a few others, not blinded by *something*.
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Aww thanks..
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"Don't Feed the Trolls."
www.coyotethunder.com/RedMonkey/archives/2008/03/dont_feed_the_t.html
But do scroll down to the cartoon.
And remember that having the last word is highly overrated.-
Yeah, you're right...but you wouldn't believe how tedious the editing work I'm supposed to be doing is....
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There's gotta be something more entertaining than this. Wanna grade 100 papers?
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Done it. At least students, when you point out their blatant logical contradictions (TWICE) don't insist they didn't make them....
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It really is a tough question. After working my way through med school as a medical assistant for 8 years in family practice, I can attest that doctors and nurses are completely overworked and under-paid for all the stress they have to deal with. By the time my generation is in their fifties there is supposed to be a nation wide shortage of family physicians because everyone is currently going in to a specialty rather than having to deal with the slaving away in the muddy trenches that is managed care.
I think that certain aspects of health care should be provide by our country. However, to some degree how much can you REALLY expect other people to take care of you? You know? Yes it is the American dream to be able to get whatever you want, but if you lack the motivation to go after it then why should everyone else that is working their ass off have to take care of you?
These decisions are tough. But considering the facts that America spends the MOST money on health care out of any other country in the world and we are only second to Finland as the most unhealthy country says a lot.
Our health care system is set up to only pay doctors for extreme measures. Counseling, diet advice, stress management etc are not paid for by insurance...but a 40k surgery for the resultant heart attack IS paid for...and THAT is exactly what is wrong with health are in America.
Barack Obama's plan for universalized health care honestly scares the hell out of me...but it may be the only way out of this mess. Really it can't be worse. I am not counting on medicare to still be around for my generation. Things are going to get really ugly if something is not done soon.-
You are right on many levels. It is a very tricky subject and problem to solve. I do believe that we need to make Health care more afforable in this country so more have access to it. Teach prevenative care in grade/high school. Also make insurance companies who deny claims, doctor's who over charge for care, and drug companies that charge way to much for drugs need to be regulated...STOP the greed at people's quality of LIFE!
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Doc Nicole things are really ugly already, I think about my mom's health, her first bout with breast cancer, stage 3 that moved quickly to stage 4, her six months of chemo every two weeks, the shots she got in her stomach every week for 3 months that cost a $1,000 a pop, and now the chemo pills she takes once every two weeks that cost $5,000 a round for her liver cancer
I can't imagine if she didn't have insurance, healthcare needs to be accessable to everyone, however I am not happy with the solutions that are being offered at this point either, it's a vicious circle that doesn't seem to get any closer to being solved-
She would end up fight for her life,and loosing all her possesions to pay for it! It is very sad. Putting money over someone's life. Health care should be a service provided at a resonable cost..and to lower the cost..make it illegal to profit from it. Health care should not me a profitable commodity. Insurance companies, hospitals, and drug companies should only be allowed to charge enough to pay back their costs for saaries..etc. And I don't mean paying your greedy CEO's millions of dollars a year!
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Kat, like your Mom, my Mom had a bout with cancer (now cancer free!). Her bills were unbelievable! Fortunately, she has awesome insurance (Tri-Care).
How is your Mom now? -
she has liver cancer, doing chemo and has many side effects, but hanging in there
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I am sorry to hear this. My Mom went through chemo, surgeries, and radiation... it is grueling, is it not? I hope you are maximizing time with her. Time is precious.
It floors me how unaffordable cancer treatment is and how much money is being made by it.
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My short answer is that it SHOULD be a right, but there are some reasons why I believe that it can't and won't be...
I'll put in my 2 cents when I'm more awake... -
health care and life quality should be 4 every one.-
yes it should..we need to find a way to make it afforable and available.
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I think public health should be extended to every person on the globe, clean drinking water, sanitation, basic nutrition, getting rid of pests and vermin, vaccination would prevent a lot of epidemics the world over. It would more than pay for itself in alleviating suffering. The question of individual healthcare is a tough one.-
who's going to pay for it?
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I agree..their is just no need to have it exist in this world today...
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CSI, have you not heard? From the Global Poverty Tax, of course!
www.youtube.com/watch?v=PePbtEABzGk
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Health Care is just a good service...not rights.
cherrypierecipes.blogspot.com/-
Yes, as it is not a right..I think we do have the right for it to be made afforable..to many people are profiting off the suffering of others..hospitals..doctors..drug companies..
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oh, right, jamie, affordable health care is key.
Equal coverage at an equal fee. -
Ohh..I like being right
Tell me more..
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I think it should be a "right". I have enough compassion and love in my heart for my fellow human beings to have no problem with my taxes going to help in this way. I know this is not a popular stance, but that is how I feel. Maybe it's because I've never been one to boil poverty down to laziness and I have a lot of empathy for my fellow humans. I think many in this country are very poor due to circumstances beyond their control and I just believe we have a "moral" obligation to help the "less fortunate". That's my two cents for what it's worth. (guess not much in this economy)
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Ohhh, what a kind women you are...now rub my feet!!
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Good health, and reasonable access to the services that encourage good health is a human right. There is nothing civil or privileged about it, in my opinion.
The issue with health care today is that not all health care address, services, or encourages 'good health" nor is the industry the final word good health.
However, preventative medicine, such as checkups and vaccinations to preventable illnesses and communicable diseases doesn't just help the individual, it benefits the entire community at large.
Nothing is scarier than a lack of access to vaccines that prevent the spread of communicable - and sometimes deadly - diseases that can spread throughout an entire community and harm everyone.-
You are right..how would drug companies make any money if we were all healthy? They wouldn't want to encourage that!
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we need food too.
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This thread goes to prove how much bigotry exists in this country. No wonder more and more people are ashamed to say they are Americans. You bitch and moan about illegal immigrants, but the fact is without them you couldn't afford to live here. Yes let's get rid of illegal aliens, without whom the labor cost of food goes up 500% Let's get rid of them even though 99% of their earnings are spent immediately and put back into the economy. Let's get rid of them even though the IRS tells us they provide net positive in taxes payroll taxes, not to mention how much they pay in local and state sales taxes and the federal gas tax. More than a third of illegal immigrants smoke and are paying high tobacco taxes. Nearly half of Hispanic immigrants contribute to catholic charities.
Basic health care is a right, one this country is sorely lacking in protecting. Those with the belief that this makes health care workers slaves to the government are wrong, and most of you know you are. You simply like to expound on it because it prevents you from saying you are really a bunch of ignorant selfish bigots. Take your libertarian lines of crap and go hide from the black helicopters I am sure you believe are coming for us all. In places where health care is acknowledged and provided for as a basic right health care workers are no more slaves to the system forced to provide a service than any other civil servant. You come to work, do your job and go home when it is time and let the next shift handle the the people in the order triage demands. They are no more slaves tha are cops or firefighters.
If you want to complain about immigrants complain that there aren't enough of them.-
Ok..can't we all be friends? I agree with your stats, but just because they help our econmony doesn't mean it is right to do anything illegal. They can do it the legal way..and what is offered to them should be offered to every american.
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Immigrants and illegal immigrants are two completely different groups of people.
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Jamielay I guess that fact can't be understood, I don't believe anyone said they hated illegal aliens, I never did, and the fact that I think that citizens who are here legally should get the same benefit has nothing to do with it, For the record I wasn't bitching and moaning about illegals, I was bitching and moaning that the health care system was not fair for everyone illegal or legal
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Flaming poodle- Yes they are two very different types of people.
Kat- I know what you were saying, and i agree with you! -
Yes, Kat and Jamie, we are on the same page.
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big·ot·ry /ˈbɪgətri/
–noun, plural -ries.
1. stubborn and complete intolerance of any creed, belief, or opinion that differs from one's own.
2. the actions, beliefs, prejudices, etc., of a bigot.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Isn't it interesting that some call "bigotry" equal treatment?
Health care should be free for all, or paid for by all. Equal treatment. -
Yes flaming poodle I agree they are totally different , Jamie I think this is a trend for you, people not getting the point of your threads, hummmm are you speaking jamielaylish?
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You know the drill kat..what can i say?
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Yes we do need food to..so imagine if the farmers..who have the market on our nations food supply increase the prices so high to where you couldn't afford it? Then the supermarket's followed suit? Then the ranchers? Then we would have the same problem as health care..
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lol you so crazzzzzzzy
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In short, there are your rights:
Right to life.
Right to liberty.
Right to property.
Right to the pursuit of happiness.
Right to free speech.
Right to self defence.
www.importanceofphilosophy.com/Politics_Rights.html
That's it. Health care doesn't count, as it is a positive right. In other words, it is not a right at all, but a privilege.
Certainly, any immigrant that comes to any country through the right channels is a commodity to that country. The converse is also true - any illegal immigrant is a risk to a country. Give them information on how the system works and send them back! -
Health coverage lies somewhere between a right and a privilege, in my opinion, it is not a universal right nor an exclusive privilege. To universalize health care is a grave mistake, I do not want the government dictating to me how many procedures I am allowed to perform per year, my fees, and so forth. To allow the government to interfere with the health system in such a way would be a travesty to American medicine. The privatized healthcare sector is what makes American doctors some of the best and brightest in the world. Every doctor should be allowed to run their own practice in a manner of their own choosing. This ensures bad doctors are essentially squeezed out merely because people will not go see them. On the other hand, the government does need to provide some type of coverage to those who cannot afford it. There does need to be a program better than Medicaid that allows people access to proper medical treatment. If someone can afford private health care and insurance, then they should have the ability to buy it, but if they do not, the government should provide a reasonable plan. The governmental plan however should not be literally free. The individual receiving the plan should pay something into the system, even if it is only a symbolic $1/month.-
I am with you. I don't want "universal healthcare" or "nationalized healthcare" or whatever you call government run medical care. I want affordable healthcare only and EQUAL treatment for legals and illegals. All people should pay for healthcare.
This thread is great. -
Yes...take the high amounts of profit out of health care, make it afforable, many more could afford it..and make it all or none on the rules of who gets free and who doesn't.
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Both of you globalgirl and JamieLay completely missed what I was saying. First globalgirl, illegal immigrants do not deserve any governmental health care policy. They are not registered, they do not pay taxes, and therefore would not and should not be eligible for any government medical care program. It is not right for illegal immigrants to have the same access to healthcare that legal tax paying citizens have. For the affordable health care part (this goes for you too JamieLay), ask a doctor what their overhead is. You would not believe it, between what medical supplies cost, absurd malpractice insurance rates, and staff salaries, its expensive to run a practice and so they have to charge a lot. Also insurance companies pay shit, so doctors need to negotiate as high rates with these insurance companies as they can to cover their overhead and take a paycheck home themselves. Both of you want cheap health care, but remember, you get what you pay for.
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"between what medical supplies cost, absurd malpractice insurance rates, and staff salaries, its expensive to run a practice and so they have to charge a lot. Also insurance companies pay shit, so doctors need to negotiate as high rates with these insurance companies as they can to cover their overhead and take a paycheck home themselves."
I know the cost..my aunt is a doctor here inmy town..so I know what she has to pay..but that is what I am saying..companies charge to much for medical supplies, malpractice needs to be re-vamped...I am not saying it is just doctors falut
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First I believe there is a difference btw health care and health insurance. Health care is absolutely a right. I believe access to health care is an extension to the right to life. One cannot have a fruitful life and pursue other rights say for instance the pursuit of happiness if one is sick due to a preventable disease.
Health insurance is a business that no one is entitled. Unfortunately health care and health insurance are very intertwined. Those who profit from the business are edging out those who need the benefits.
Bottom line everyone regardless of immigration status or money should be able to get well and stay well.-
So what you are saying is that an immigrant's right to life is more important than a state doctor's right to liberty, right to property, right to self-defence, right to freedom of speech and right to the pursuit of happiness?
Liberty because state doctors are forced to work for the state at the rates endorsed by the state.
Property because at such rates, a state doctor would not be able to compete with private doctors when it comes to buying a given property. Also, state doctor would not be able to own their own practices, which more often than not consists of property either bought or leased by a doctor with a private practice.
Self-defence because a state doctor can not choose who to provide services to, and who to deny their services in the event that they are placed in a state hospital and forced to run a state practice. Let's take a gang war in the middle of a rough neighbourhood. A state doctor in a state hospital would have no reasonable right to show injured gang members to the door or to deny them access to a public building.
Freedom of speech because a state doctor would necessarily have to prescribe medicines provided and paid for by the state and would not be able to prescribe the medicine personally regarded as the most effective, or chosen in consultation with the client.
Pursuit of happiness because state doctors tend to be placed at an outpost as dictated by the state. While a state doctor may choose between these posts, the pursuit of happiness would have to play second fiddle to the available options.
I don't know, but to me one right can not trump five. -
Hi Flaming....I don't think I proposed a battling of rights based on what I said. My point being that everyone regardless of money or immigration status should have the right to getting and staying well.
How you took this left turn I don't know but let me say it again, I believe that everyone has a right to health care because I see it as an extension of the right to life. That of course has nothing to do with writing the appropriate prescription, denying treatment to a gun weilding gang member, choosing what hospital you work or owning one's practice.
Please point out based on what I've said that in any way pits one right against the other. -
So what you are saying is that an immigrant's right to life is more important than a state doctor's right to liberty, right to property, right to self-defence, right to freedom of speech and right to the pursuit of happiness?
Uhm, yeah. The right to life is more important that the right to make money, or own property or even the right to speak your mind (not that the right to health care affects any of those things, by the way).
Are you saying that an immigrant has no right to life - or that their life is worth less than because they are an immigrant?! -
Thank you Anok, a voice of reason is refreshing
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I just wanted to make sure I read that right...seems like I did.
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Are you saying that an immigrant has no right to life - or that their life is worth less than because they are an immigrant?!
Again, legal or illegal immigrant? It does make a difference.
Your right of life is only valid as long as it does not infringe on the next person's right of life. One person's rights - any one of the fundamental ones - can not be compromised for any one of another person's fundamental rights. Even the right to life. -
No, there is no difference to the right to life because someone is legally or illegally in a country.
It's a HUMAN LIFE.
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Here is a great article...
The Cabinet of Dr. Obama :: Dissecting the health care proposals of Obama and McCain.
www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/015/680cwvaz.asp
A bit about Obama's position about his support for a government run healthcare program:
Obama, meanwhile, would create a new government-run insurance program (funded by the new tax on employers who don't offer coverage) that would compete with private companies to cover people who are not insured by employers.
In effect, the Obama plan creates an incentive to drop employees from existing plans, and then takes private insurers out of the race to cover them by using price controls to make the public option cheaper. The plan's goal is to drive Americans into a public Medicare-like insurance system by default.
No thanks.-
Most of you idiots who think they know something about this actually knew what you got out of medicare and the price you pay for services you would quit your bitching about it.
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I am a Medicare recipient, as I am ineligible for private insurance due ot pre-existing health conditions.
I gotta say, that aside from a case worker that isn't good at prioritizing - we've had no problems with it at all. We can go to the doctor we want to - provided they accept our insurance (same as any private doctor) and we know that when a claim goes in, it will be paid in an appropriate amo9utn of time, and no false denials will come back to bite us in the ass - like our private insurance used to do.
Oh, and our premiums don't go up, and we are covered for everything (eye, dental, physical, meds) and we have NO co-pay.
Yeah, I'm really upset by it
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***Ding ding ding***
Found another one (BradHart) who can't discuss issues without spewing epithets.
Yawn. -
No the issue is you are a clueless idiot who thrives on trying to scare people into doing what you want. That by the way is the very definition of terrorist.
If I were you might want to claim idiot rather than terrorist as your excuse... -
And yet, no mention of how happy and HEALTHY I am because of Medicaid today.
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Oh now I get it, you also think govt run healthcare, like Obama wants, is scary.
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The bottom line is that you should not be able to profit from health care...only re-coup your overhead cost, and pay yourself and others "resonable" salaries. The greed at the top in health care is spirling out of control..and people can't afford health care..resulitng in the hospitals having to write it off..or pass it on to those who do pay.
Is this unreasonable?-
JamieLay, remember doctors are providing a service. A service that is very difficult and costly to attain. Therefore is it unreasonable for the doctors to be properly compensated for their specialized service? To say that you should not be able to profit from providing health care is just an analogy for universal health care which is a stupid idea as is. It is a free market, let doctors charge what they wish, but if they over charge then no one will go to them (I have seen this myself) and they are forced to lower their prices to attract patients. If you want to go after anyone, go after the insurance companies who pay shit to doctors (read my reply to one of your other comments). It should be up to the doctor to decide whether they wish to provide charity medicine or a standard private practice, not the government.
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I agree with you..but when you live in a small town and don't have the option of going to a different doctor..then what..you HAVE to pay there high prices. Sometimes they only spend 5 minutes with you and charge you over $100 dollars. I believe the WHOLE health care system needs re-vamped including:
1. Insurance companies lack of paying squat and denying claims
2. Malpractice insurance
Companies who sell medical supplies at a outragous cost. If you add the word medical to a pair of scissors they then jack up the price $200.
3. Doctors who over bill
4. Hospitals who over bill
5. Drug companies who charge over $100 a pill...
the list goes on and on..there is abuse all the way around it.
See my relpy to your last comment.
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Jamie, I agree with you. Everyone in America should have access to decent health care and not have to worry. I used to be against socialized medicine, but then I lost my father to cancer, and now I see a need for it that cannot be denied. So much of medicine is about $$ and not real care, and it's disgusting.-
Yes, it is very sad...and unless you have had a personal experience with this messed up system..you don't understand. I am soory to hear about your father. You should never have to spend you last days on earth fighting with insurance companies! There just has to be a better way for all involved.
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Hi Faithsju243
How you took this left turn I don't know but let me say it again, I believe that everyone has a right to health care because I see it as an extension of the right to life. That of course has nothing to do with writing the appropriate prescription, denying treatment to a gun weilding gang member, choosing what hospital you work or owning one's practice.
Of course it does. You are saying you're willing to condone a high level of state slavery in the shape of state medical workers in order to support those who can not support themselves.
Think about it carefully. You simply cannot provide state-sponsored health care without essentially enslaving an industry.
Let's see what else the government runs. Let's see how efficient that is when compared with how it is run in the free market. Hmm... home schooling versus public schools? Private schools versus public schools? Enough said.-
Flaming sweetie I'm still not following your line of thought and it could be my lack of caffeine today. I believe it is essential that everyone have access to health care to stay and get well if needed. This in no way defends gov't agencies that don't run properly. Yes gov't agencies do need to run and pay better for their workers. I am not opposed to this. I also don't think we should deny those who need medical attention that right because programs run poorly.
If we use your example, that would be the same as denying children the right to go to school because we know teachers aren't paid properly, they encounter violence and a host of other things. Now while I agree the education system is in the tubes that doesn't mean I would prefer that the kids just run around without the little bit of education they get. We have to agree that something is better than nothing. Also no one forces anyone to be a public servant, this is like most things in life a choice.
In my humble opinon we should work on making the programs run efficiently not dismantling them. Not only that we are talking about gov't as if it's an entity and not a collection of people. Maybe we should really think about who we elect if we have a problem with the program operations. -
In my humble opinon we should work on making the programs run efficiently not dismantling them. Not only that we are talking about gov't as if it's an entity and not a collection of people. Maybe we should really think about who we elect if we have a problem with the program operations.
I agree with your humble opinion. It's your tax money that is paying for them. The least you could expect is efficiency, but a big bureaucratic monopoly rarely leads to efficiency.
And of course who you elect is a very important decision. Unfortunately, it usually boils down to the lesser of two evils in my humble opinion.
If you can't provide the best for kids, you shouldn't be having them!
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The right to life is more important that the right to make money, or own property or even the right to speak your mind (not that the right to health care affects any of those things, by the way).
Your right to life is directly tied to your right to own property, your right to the pursuit of happiness, your right to liberty, your right to self defence, your right to speak your mind.-
No, your right to life is a human right, which is directly tied to the fact that you are a HUMAN. A living being.
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So being human does not mean that you need to own your own property?
You don't need to own the freedom to choose where you'd like to live, and what work you'd like to do, on which terms?
You don't think that part of being human is speaking your mind?
You don't feel that part of being human is to defend yourself?
You don't need to own your pies that you bake and barter with? Because that, my dear, is capitalism. -
Flaming - Not an expert here, just seeking clarification- I've taken some Anthropology courses that made it clear that land ownership is really a byproduct of the shift from hunting and gathering (nomadic means of getting food) to horticulture, then agriculture--a sedentary method of food production that also served to supply larger populations-- that led to the need for immobility. Later this immobility was exacerbated by the industrial revolution, which brought people from urban areas to dwell more permanently near the factories. Seems property ownership is an afterthought (an adaptation, if you will) to cater to our means of sustaining ourselves in this age. But, I probably shouldn't have clicked on this discussion. Eh, whatever. I'm getting a beer.
I sometimes wonder if there are cultural miscues in our conversations with our friends abroad.
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gotta agree with anok, chances are if you don't live in a dmocratic society you don't have all the rights flaming poodle spoke of
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It also bears mentioning that if you have no right to live, you probably won't have a life to exercise all of the other rights, and wants, that you have.
I mean, really - life comes first. Without it, there's no point. -
Actually the People's Republic of China has a public health care system.
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SO a communist country rife with human rights abuses will provide health care for it's people, but a first world country that is supposedly built on democracy and individual rights and human rights leaders can't?
That's a great argument.
The US is the only developed first world country left that does not provide it's citizens with some form of health care hello... -
Why not go live in China?
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That's a great argument. A great argument that misses the point entirely.
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Like the unsubstantiated claim that accused me of wanting to kill immigrants?
Oh, wait. That wasn't an argument.
Bottom line: Health care is a service. It's not a right, it's a privilege.
Can't you realise the contradiction between universal health care and individual rights?
Flame on!
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yes so right anok, gotta start somewhere, often countries that don't have many of the additional rights being discussed here often don't value life to begin with
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My country has a public health system. I know someone who had to get a leg amputated. Guess what? They amputated the wrong leg. Guess what else? He can't sue the public health system.
Yes, we are a democracy. -
Hey guess what, medical malpractice here is sky high too. From amputating the wrong limbs, to leaving medical instruments behind inside patients, to deadly misdiagnoses, to allowing people to die in the waiting room while waiting for treatment...
And you can sue, if you can afford the lawyer. If you can't, too bad, so sad. -
Malpractice insurance is high and going to skyrocket because they invest all the money they take in the stock market. The insurance industry as whole thought the subprime market was going to be a good investment too. It went under insurance rates across the board skyrocketed to cover their losses. If you want to control malpractice rates quit letting them in invest it in risky industry by either legislating where they can invest their money or how much they can raise your rates over a year.
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I was just peaking to the cost of hiring legal representation to get you into court - but of course, soaring insurance costs are another point too.
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Well, here you get free legal representation.
Provided that you don't try and sue a public system.
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I bet you if I started a thread called: "let's discuss a solution to the health care crisis," like- three people would respond.-
I'd be more than glad to participate.
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Nah. I'm sorta busy. Two tops. ;0)
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got some ideas brazen? share them , cuz i have no idea what would begin to work , I live a stone's throw from Canada, and that health care system scares me when I hear oncologists on Canadian radio say they tell their patients to go accoss the river to detroit to get care because they will most likely die before they get treatment in their city.
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Yes and someone would miss the point too.
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Everyone need health care and get it depend on their afford and we need fun to help who being unable. -
@jaded: lol :-)
@kat: Nope nothing to contribute here. I just like pointing out the problems :-) -
kat: (PS- thanks for being inclusive to the odd apple out. I was starting to wonder if my fruit had worms. No one talks to me during discussion time...)
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hey my sista in education no problem
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I guess no one can agree on this issue....
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Jamie, I agree. -
Do you agree that I agree with you?
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No, I disagree. You are way too agreeable.
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I agree that I am agreeable, but disagree that I am disagreeable.
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No, unless you're a communist.
You have to take care of yourself, not the government!-
Survival of the fittest.
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@OB-lol.
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Oh..I thought it was survival of the fattest...
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"unless you're a communist"?!? Before swinging around big words, familiarise yourself with the theory behind it. Communism has NOTHING to do with the right to health care. You single-handedly equate many nations on continental Europe, who fought the Soviet threat tooth and nail, with Communism.
cosmopolite-kaffeeklatsch.blogspot.com/2008/10/my-abbreviated-take-on-socia...
And as for my stance on health care:
cosmopolite-kaffeeklatsch.blogspot.com/2008/10/health-care-is-same-as-haird...
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what happened to global girl? did someone steal her idenity
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yes I do believe it is a right, same with education.-
Good luck trying to convince some of these people that around here! Grab a cold one..may be a long night..
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Well.. deep in my heart i agree with what you stated here, but i was wondering .. will it be real?, In my country health care is expensive, gaining money for food is primary than gaining it for health.. only a few people here have a deep understanding on health insurance, another problem is.. people here don't really trust on some kind of insurance company.. many things have to be taken care, then health care will be an issue... perhaps later... another next years... -
access to healthcare is not a personal right in the same sense as equality, but it is a basic provision of a society (along with education, shelter, food, and security) that has it's priorities right.
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Agreed!
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Human life should always be protected, whatever the status.
Poor or rich.
And indeed this has to be a basic right along education, food and shelter.
Did I say I was European... -
Is it true that people are dieing in Europe while on waiting lists because they are in severe need of medical care?
Is it true that rich Europeans go to private doctors because the communist state-run medical care is so bad? -
No
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There aren't any communist states left in Europe! Because Europeans hold dear the concept of social responsibility does not make them communist. Have you read my response to your post above?
On Continental Europe, I'm not aware of waiting lists for anything (except for donor organs, for obvious reasons). If medically urgently necessary, then you get the help at an instance. In fact, OB/GYNs and pediatricians here in Germany all have their own, modern ultrasound machines and small labs IN THEIR OFFICE for that very reason.
Rich Europeans don't really go to private doctors. They generally go to the same doctors, only pay for comfort add-ons. For giving birth to her twins, Angelina Jolie did not go to a private hospital in France but to a public one. They merely paid extra for the luxury of a private room, etc.-
Weird, I clicked on reply to farangkthai...
My last comment is directed @psycho's ridiculous claim that people are dying in Europe whilst on waiting lists...
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wrong placement - moved
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I believe every human should have to enough food, education, and protection of their health (whether that be the police, fire dept, or doctor). Those are the basic human needs that our taxes should go to.-
That just about sums it up!
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As a Canadian I grew up with the standard of health care we have so I've never really thought about it being "a privilege" I guess. I have considered moving to the States in the past to pursue my music career but that's the thing that always stops me...I'm terrified even when I go shop there that something could happen to me, and I'll end up bankrupt and homeless. I'm sure that's a bit outlandish but the commercials on American tv about people losing their entire life over ridiculously high medical charges scares the shit out of me.-
you used a weekend word lol
is this thread still going? I thought we'd have found a solution by now
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I think it should be a right, and that we should nationalize our healthcare system. -
So have we solved this problem yet?
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holy crap it takes a year to scroll down to the bottom, umm nah I don't think you are any closer to the answer
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Well, you've received a ton of replies already but for what it's worth I'll just say that I had an interesting experience a few months ago when I was Italy and ended up needing emergency surgery. It was very serious. The surgeon said I was about to go into a coma. I had to be in the hospital in Italy for 3 weeks. I was charged nothing. Nada. Zip. The surgery, the cat scans, the x-rays, the 3 weeks in hospital. All no charge. And I am not a tax paying citizen over there. I was damn lucky to be there when this happened and not in the US because I never could have covered the bill in the US. It easily could have been $100,000.00 ....what would have happened? I don't know... Could they have gone after my one asset which is my very small house in the plains of Colorado? I don't know. I sure know it would have added a ton of stress to an already very challenging medical situation... to have had to constantly worry about the bill racking up.
You can read a discussion on my blog at the link below where people weighed in about health care in the US versus in Europe:
italiandreams.wordpress.com/2008/09/23/differences-between-us-health-care-a...-
Wow, what a intresting experience. You are blessed in a way, because a three week saty in the us would have cost in the 100,000 of dollars.
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Yes, interesting with regard to medical costs. But interesting doesn't begin to describe the challenges of recovering from what I had! And yeah, just the thought of what it would have cost in the US is really intense and really stressful. If I am going to be without health care, then I am going to be better off in Italy than in the US. Once I get healed (I am still healing 3 months later) I am going to try to find a job with health care. I had been an "adjunct" professor at a handful of community colleges and I cannot get health care doing that, so I need to find something else.
If anyone wants to weigh in on this topic (health care in US versus in Europe) I'd love to see you on my blog:
italiandreams.wordpess.com-
If you didn't pay for it, then who did? Does Italy have and all-volunteer medical staff who work for free?
I'm glad you're doing well! I would be glad to be in Italy, too, under those circumstances, but someone had to pay. -
Hi psychosolodiver,
I am not entirely sure on exactly how socialized medicine works. I know in general terms that the tax payer pays for it. I am sure there's a more detailed explanation though...and I'm sorry I cannot provide it. Doctors and nurses in Italy do get paid. I doubt they're paid as much as in the US. I am guessing but this is only a guess, that the state may subsidize the health care costs...(it may not just be the tax payer paying for those costs.) I say this because I have always heard that Italians are notorious for trying to avoid paying taxes and so I am not sure that JUST their taxes could adequately cover the running of the medical system.
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I think health care is a human right
I think having money in the bank is a human right
I think having a really great paying job is a human right
I think having car insurance is a human right
I think having a pet horse is a human right
I think_________is a human right (fill in the blank) -
good sex
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good point
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Well I guess we will see how the new President would answer this question.
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I think it has always been a "perk" of certain employers that offer it. Since Obama says now it won't be a need for any American I winder what the next perks will become. Personally I doubt me will be able to give every American free health care but I don't wanna be the party pooper in this Obama drunkenness. -
"Socialized Medicine" is primarily an ideology championed by the Democrats. However, contrary to popular belief, a nationalized health care system has never actually been on the agenda for President Elect Obama. His agenda has always been to assist those who are rendered uninsurable and or are in need of assistance in obtaining health care coverage due to low income.
Part of his plan is to expand the role of SCHIP and State Insurance Risk Pools so that those who are rendered "uninsurable" on the individual major medical market have guaranteed insurability through their respective State Risk Pools. Many states already have this option. However states such as Arizona and Florida do not. These states desperately need such Risk Pools. Unfortunately, until now they have not been able to receive enough Federal funding to expand this much needed role. States that do have risk pools are listed here: www.naschip.org/states_pools.htm
President Elect Obama wishes to provide more Federal funding to these existing risk pools to drive the premiums down, thereby making this option more affordable for those rendered uninsurable.
One of the reasons that a "nationalized" health care system has never been on Obama's agenda is most likely due to the terrible failure of such programs in countries such as Canada. A common example used to further the cause of "socialized medicine" in the United States is to point out how well it is working in Canada. However, those living in Canada know full well that their government run health care program is most certainly not working.
As a matter of fact, many Canadian citizens choose to hire high priced brokers to find them quality health care right here in the United States because of the terrible bureaucracy that controls all forms of health care in Canada. For more about what is really going on with the Canadian health care system please watch these short but very informative documentary videos:
www.freemarketcure.com/brainsurgery.php
www.freemarketcure.com/twowomen.php
www.freemarketcure.com/thelemon.php
The number of actual uninsured's in the US has been grossly inflated as well. For the real numbers watch: www.freemarketcure.com/uninsuredinamerica.php
The truth of the matter is we already have an enormous amount of entitlement programs available to those who find themselves unable to pay for their health care. Often times these entitlement programs are offered to those who are here legally and illegally as was the case in the State of Illinois: www.sbisvcs.com/healthinsuranceblog.htm
Most recently, the State of Hawaii tried to emulate the Medicaid Expansion programs that were enacted in Illinois. It took less than 7 months to render their program bankrupt: www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D93SBEUG0&show_article=1
All things considered, the best way to offset the high cost of health care in the US is to adopt the initiatives set forth over a decade ago by Senator Bill Archer (R) of Texas. The Health Savings Account (commonly referred to as a "Medical IRA") is a unique option that maintains high quality health insurance coverage for the policy holder whilst also building a tax deductible, tax deferred interest bearing account for the insured to use for future medical expenses. Even if these expenses would not normally be covered by the policy holder's health insurance plan. For more about the "intelligent health insurance choice" (HSA qualified HDHP's) please click here: www.sbisvcs.com/HSA%20&%20HDHP.html -
Intresting stuff...
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Hi there....You can lower your daily hazard consumption by wear less make up or nothing at all ! If you are interested with this campaign, you can join me by sent me your photos with and without make up here : beautyonwatch.wordpress.com/less-is-more/ and I’ll post it here.
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We fight harmful chemical ingredients in cosmetics and replace them with safer alternatives. We also share news about lethal injection, deadly surgery, skin whitening horror and rate hazard score in your cosmetics product.
The less you use cosmetics, the more you save your life. -
it's required for long life ...
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As a believer in the doctrine of Natural Right, I'm sort of on the fence. On the one hand there is presumably no medical care in the Natural state to coincide with a civil right. On the other hand; in the Natural state, ones body is not filled with chemicle pollutants outsiude of ones realm of control. I tend therefore to lean toward it being a civil right.
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