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Does Corporal Punishment Work?
Posted by Onchong • 5 days ago • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: child abuse, corporal punishment, reinforcing corporal punishment
Many people believe that a good old smack never hurt anyone and actually gets the message across, but there are others who think that hitting a child will either escalate into child abuse, or if it doesn't do that, then turn the child itself into a criminal.
Do you believe that spanking is sometimes necessary? How many use it at home?
User Comments
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My mother in law raised 10 kids. She used spanking. Every one of them are college graduates and leading productive lives. Interestingly, a couple of them disagreed violently with spanking and vowed not to use it - ever. In this very large family, with similar genetics, the grandkids grew up side by side. My mother in law had to admit, she saw no difference between the grandchildren who had been spanked and those who had not. I'm sure in some cases it is not appropriate, but likewise, in some cases long discussions (the punishment of choice by one sister) don't work, either.
Interesting question.-
Many parents will admit to having smacked their children when they felt there was no alternative. Some people will say that it works, others that they just felt so bad themselves and they would never do it again.
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I was spanked as a child...It only escalated to child abuse because my father/protector died, leaving me in the hands of insecure/hateful/drunk mom. Although I have some psychological issues, I turned out pretty okay & certainly not a criminal. (And who doesn't have psychological issues, really?)-
I had my share of spanking and smacking when growing up. My father used to hit with me his belt buckle. Just to think of it makes me sick, and just like Ms DaniG said, I made a vow not to use it to my children.
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Onchong, your father was a bully.
As you loved him (I am guessing), then you still carry around a mixed message in your mind - that bullying and pain are part of love. -
Onchong; My mother tried to kill us all (among other things.) I decided not to have kids, myself.
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@ Hels,
He was a very strict disciplinarian.
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Yes, let's punish all the Corporals.
Oh, wait.-
Friday - you are SOOOO funny!
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Sense of humor is the secret to a stress-free life.
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The great thing about spanking is it's a punishment you don't get out of, it's quick, and it's clean cut. While there are certainly those who abuse corporal punishment, that is the result of attitude, and the bad attitude that creates the abuse would always create abuse with any method of punishment that touches the child at all, because it's not the physical hurt but the way you work in their minds that makes the punishment effective or abusive. Are you trying to "break their will" or are you trying to teach them?-
When children are punished there is a danger that they will come to think they--rather than their behaviors--are bad, stupid, or clumsy. With such an attitude, they expect to fail. Children who are humiliated often become more concerned with protecting themselves against anxiety than with taking positive action. Such children may become withdrawn. Or they may strike out in retaliation, thereby inviting a new round of punishment. In either case, the punishment becomes self-defeating.
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Yeah but if you deprive children of freedoms et cetera, and treat these things like privileges, they might come to be slovenly, apathetic and have no idea who they are, depending upon other people for any self-image for the rest of their life. That's certainly what I've observed in my friends who were punished this way. Corporal Punishment, Work Punishment and other forms of positive punishment have the wonderful side that they DON'T deprive children of freedom in any measurable way beyond the rules they enforce. It's surgical.
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It depends on the child. My daughter doesnt care she will do something to get back at you. (not physically but by doing something she knows she is not suppost to) My son is the exact opposite. He thinks about what he is doing. He has had one or two spankings from daddy and he doesnt want any more. He will say he is sorry tell you why it was wrong and 9 times out of 10 wont do it again.(unless it is against his sister) It doesnt turn them into criminals. Spare the rod and spoil the child. But it can lead to child abuse if it is done wrong and make that person abuse down the road.-
Parents who smack their children may gain short-term relief, and even immediate obedience by their child, but both parents and children pay a heavy price for this indulgence.
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when my daughters were younger, we tried different things to maintain order. With my oldest, it became obvious that any physical punishemnt that didn't leave a mark was ineffective, but depriving her of freedom was capable of curbing bad behavior. With the youngest, spanking was overkill, and it became appearent that she could actually be reasoned with.
Every kid is different. I just hope that people try different thing, and stick to what traumatizes their child the least.-
or what has the best overall effect, including behavior, self-image, social ability, attitude towards law/authority (delicate balance here, don't want too far either direction) and attitude towards life.
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In getting rid of bad behavior, punishment may suppress not only bad behavior but good behavior, too.
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Yes, but that's about when to punish, not how.
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I don't believe a child should ever be "smacked" or hit in anger. I believe corporal punishment has a place in discipline, but used the proper way and sparingly. -
I cannot imagine ever hitting my child any more than I would hit an adult who did something I disapproved of. The thought of spanking him never entered my mind as, again, the thought of hitting any other people doesn't enter my mind. Physical punishment for wrongdoing seems as outmoded to me as using the rack as a means of dispensing justice does. I don't think I know a lot of people in my peer group who use corporal punishment.
The boy, by the way is now a sixteen year old honor student, allstar soccer player, artist and an extremely warmhearted and caring individual towards others. I'm certain sparing the rod didn't spoil him. -
Although I don't like hitting at all, I suppose if two men of the same height and weight want to hit each other, who is to stop them?
But for an adult to hit a child, for a man to hit a woman, for a religious court to hit a citizen or a school principal to hit a pupil - that is cowardly. And immoral, even if it was well intended.
Laurence, I agree. Hitting a small person you love is even more cowardly than hitting a stranger. I hit one of my children (only once) but I remember feeling more humiliated by my behaviour than I was about his misbehaviour. -
HELL 2 the yea!!...it takes a lot for my girls to get a spanking. The one thing that I don't do timeout first for is when they throw a tempertantrum. It is a spanking first then timeout....oh and they have recently picked up the word hate at school. Jay told me she hated me the other day. I had to sit down 10 minutes before I spanked her. That is like saying the "f" word to me -
You can appear to get your way when you spank. In the end you only make them think about overthrowing you, the way the oppressed secretly hate their oppressors while doing outward obeisance to them. You can dominate their bodies that way but not their hearts and minds. Just because you can physically hurt them certainly doesn't mean you should. It's too bad you waited ten minutes to get your anger under control and spanked her anyway.
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I'm surprised that the sex-bloggers haven't weighed in on whether it "works" for them
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Ill send out the memo...
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I'm glad they haven't. Sex and violence in a blog about child rearing would be too creepy.
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Studies show that spanking actually has more negative consequences than positive consequences. One test conducted showed that kids who had been spanked as kids had lower IQ's than kids who were not spanked. Experts are against it. I believe they recommend the operant conditions of positive and negative reinforcements,-
Yes, but what caused what? No one disagrees with the research, but everyone disagrees on what it means. Is it that the societies that smack their children are poorer, more hard labor oriented and have less healthy diets and lifestyles (genetics and environmental conditions both contribute to IQ) or that the kid would've had a higher IQ if he hadn't been smacked?
Beyond that, may I remind you of the fine job the experts did with Wall Street. -
In the learning of a new response, punishment for errors may slow down learning instead of speeding it up. The learner needs to identify the differences between right and wrong answers, but giving punishment for this purpose may just create anxiety.
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@Onchong: But that's any punishment, not just corporal punishment. Surely you aren't advocating an end to all punishment.
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Well that's funny. I think real life shows kids that aren't disiplined (spanked to) properly,end up being drug dealers,drug addicts,prison,death....it isn't just spanking it's raising a kid and laying down a proper foundation while they are young. Disipline goes with that.
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Jeremy, I agree that those who tend to smack their kids around most tend to fall in the poorer classes of society (also according to studies I have read) which may also contribute to the kids having lower IQ's. (The live in poorer parts of town with educational facilities that are far from adequate compared to educational facilities in other more wealthy parts of town.) So I too am skeptical to the actual causes that those results show. Though that was just one example. Spanking is still not recommended as Onchong suggests, it causes more harm than good for the development and progress of the child, due to anxiety and other factors.
There are many other operant conditions we can use to discipline and condition children to behave how we have deemed appropriate.
- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operant_conditioning
I have spanked my kids, but it is never in anger, it is totally in control and used as an operant condition. Though from my experience, it hasn't worked. I have moved on to other methods such as positive and negative reinforcements which should be used together.
- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reinforcement -
@morgantj: It seems to me that any overstrict set of rules, regardless of how they're enforced, will lead to the issues with anxiety et cetera that you describe. The key is making sure your rules are strict enough to keep them form completely destroying themselves and guide them basically along the right path while letting them figure out the rest.
Interestingly though, it might actually be better to have some righteous anger with the punishment, without letting it go to your head and influence your actions. It's a delicate balance, and you'll probably want to practice with something else first (maybe your wife will consent if she's in to that kind of thing) but if pulled off successfully you can create a real emotional connection and personal loyalty aspect to the punishment, ala Godfather, that wouldn't otherwise exist. But you have to be very careful with this, and only people capable of being emotional while still thinking rationally should even attempt this. Do so at your own risk.
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Who doesn't love a little a** smacking now and then?
I enjoy spanking a naughty woman (or when they don't make my sammich right).-
As Gore Vidal said: "I believe in bringing back the birch, but only between consenting adults." -
Thanks for the tip. I'll be sure and get the "sammich" wrong every time, so I can enjoy...err...suffer the punishment. -
Lotus don't worry. I give random spankings when I get bored ;p
I may be in Arlington, in a few weeks too... depending on whether or not K-state wins saturday.
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True enough. There are other ways of disciplining unbehaving children instead of using physical force with the intention of causing pain. To discipline is to teach a person the difference between right and wrong, not to cause injury.
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I agree.
As parents, it's also our job to teach our children the way the world works. I never want to be the one who taught my child to accept that the people who love him/her are allowed to physically harm them.
IMO parental discipline should teach a child eventually to have *self* discipline -- that is, to make good choices and to understand the consequences of those choices. So, we parent by talking openly and consistently about expectations. And we spend time listening to our kids, too ... because sometimes there is a valid reason they act out. We just try to help them direct their energies into productive channels.
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The results and efficiency of corporal punishment depends on the kid, I think. Some kids are stronger and can probably handle it without getting too screwed up, but in general I think it's about the most cowardly thing an adult can do.
If you're a parent, you control everything the kid needs; food, shelter, clothing, love, etc. and the kid is dependant on you. The world is messed up as it is, so you're supposed to be the one person the kid can trust and feel secure with. Why would you want to abuse that power and make yourself a person to be feared rather than a person to feel safe with? Is that the lesson you want to teach the kid? That you can't trust anyone? And if someone doesn't do what you say, it's OK to beat them into doing it?
Believe me, if you make a habit out of hitting your kid when he does something wrong, the kid is not going to be afraid of doing something wrong, he's going to be afraid of you because you being angry = pain. If you want to hit someone, hit someone who stands a chance of defending himself.
Any type of corporal punishment is illegal in Sweden, but even if it wasn't I sure as hell wouldn't use it. If you think a kid who flinches every time an adult reaches out to pat him on the shoulder is a "healthy" kid, I suggest you reconsider.-
Yes, I read about Sweden being the first country to outlaw all corporal punishment and other humiliating treatment of children.
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Oh Lordy...
Check the history, I started this discussion a few months back and it was GIANT contrversy.
I personally beleive that there is a DIFFERENCE between spanking and abuse. I think spanking is ok. A smack on the bum or perhaps the hand. Never the face or midsection. Never with anything other than your OWN HAND. Only while a child is say between the ages of 2 and 5. I think after age 5 maybe 6 a child should be able to listen to you and obey you without physicalities.-
I would agree that there is nothing wrong with a quick swat to the backside, or the hand for the purposes of immediate correction, particularly at such an age when acute understanding of the ramifications of said misbehavior is not there. i do think that older, more understanding, and contemplative children should be handled differently however.
edited to add: And i don't agree with the highly ritualized spankings that some promote
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Definitely. It's a judgement call.
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I wonder, what exactly is the difference? What part of the body you hit them in?
Let me make a comparison. A woman drops a plate on the floor and it breaks. The man hits the woman to punish her. Is this abuse or acceptable? If you think it's abuse, why would the same thing be acceptable with a kid who's 4 years old?
Spanking is the act of using pain as a deterrent for making the kid not do something you don't want it to do. I honestly don't see the logic in that being acceptable for kids of a certain age, but not for kids of other ages or adults. In my opinion inflicting pain on anyone to get them to do what you want = abuse. -
Well the difference is the fact that it's a woman versus a 4 year old child. A child makes the difference. Have you ever watched a two year old fall on the ground? They're not really hurt, all they did was bump their but against the pavement a little. If you look at the baby and start to panic, rush over and check them for wounds, what happens? The baby starts to scream and cry. It's reacting to YOUR reaction, not how it feels. If you applaud them and start to clap when they fall and tell them their ok, they'll start to laugh and clap as well. Children at that age don't have a perception of punishment or degredation. They only know that what they did made mommy or daddy happy and to act accordingly. So when you tap (not punch or hit) a child's bum or hand, your not even hurting them, or at least SHOULDN'T be. Your just displaying dissapointment in a way that a child who hasn't developed emotionally yet, so that they understand what they did or are doing is not ok. I have punished my god son by tapping his hand with the same force as I would pushing an elevator button and he starts to cry because he knows he just go punished. He wasn't hurt, but he understood not to do it again.
I think you are misunderstanding how child development works at that young age. -
Well, I think most people who spank their kids do so quite a bit harder than pushing an elevator button.
If a kid who falls over starts crying because of your reaction to it, rather than beause of actually being hurt, why would the same thing not work when the kid misbehaves? Why would you need to spank the kid at all to make it realize it did something bad? Just react to it in other ways.
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**Spanks Onchong
Now, will you open such threads again?-
f-reakay! o_0
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Shorty! run away before someone mistakes you for a kid!
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I talk to my two kids and never spanked them.
Now I have two confident young university scholars.-
Non-violent parenting is by far the best for family and society. For many parents hitting begins the slippery slope, oiled by stress or emotion, to physical abuse.
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Any hitting, light or otherwise sends the wrong message. It just shows a lack of creativity and self discipline. If I want you to do something differently (maybe I'm your boss), would it really be helpful if I gave you a little slap or a hit on the bum? Of course not, children deserve the same respect. The Swedes have got it right. There is no excuse for any of that nonsense.
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Exactly. A punished behavior may disappear, only to surface later when the punisher is not around. Parents who punish are often surprised to learn that their child is a troublemaker at school.
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I'd say that if a parent needs to smack on a regular basis then they aren't a very good parent. Maybe once or twice to get a point across. I was only smacked three times throughout my entire childhood and I turned out ok.-
Except for that you are irate.
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@Iratedog
I agree. If punishment is routinely used as the way to enforce good behavior, children learn no other training method. -
I actually do agree with this, though I see no problem with corporal punishment over any other method besides possibly overdoing it, which is really a hazard with any punishment but is illegal for physical punishment.
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I don't think spanking necessarily damages a child, but I do believe it's unnecessary. I think it demonstrates a lack of imagination, resourcefulness and self-control.
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I agree.
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In some ways though the fact that it is so superficial is actually a good thing because it only sends one message, exactly the message you want it to send. If you want to send more messages then that, you can add to it. The fact that it is so unimaginative and simple means the imponderables are very limited, and since things don't really mix together both you and your child will understanding exactly what is going on.
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Smacking doesn't create citizens with pro-social values, doesn't make effective citizens, sends confusing messages to children, blinds them through fear from telling right from wrong, and is ultimately self-defeating.
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