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Does real altruism exist?
Posted by angelshair • 11 days ago • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: altruism
Or is it just a concept.
When we act to help people, do we do so without nothing in mind than that persons good?
I personaly am not so sure.
When I give (money, time, goods) to someone, I do it because it makes me feel good.
I saw many people for whom the "thank you" they receive after giving is really important.
What do you think? Can we still call this altruism?
User Comments
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Thank you Morgan! really interesting!
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I guess if you do it to make yourself feel good, just like what Morgan had said in the other discussion thread, I believe there is some element of self-centeredness there.
So, when do we ever become really altruistic?? Hmm..-
I think we are instrisically selfish. This may originate from our instinct for survival. Take for example, if you were big on community service. How far from the truth would it be to say that you are big on community service becuase you take pleasure in contributing to a cuase that has the potential to benefit others or something outside of yourself. While the consequesnce of ones actions may very well benefit others, I think the motivation comes from the pleasure one gets from doing so, from doing what one thinks is right, and good. This is an underlying selfish motive. While there may be other additional motives, I think there is alway this additional underlying selfish motive. Selfishness has an undeserved bad reputation. When I speak of selfishness it is in no way insuating that I think it is wrong. I just find it valuable to us to understand this. People place a high value on altruistic acts, I think it is this value they place on it that motivates them to attempt to act altruistically. But to do so, to attempt to act altruistic becuase one finds value from it, becuase one thinks it is right and makes them a good person, is yet another selfish motive. -
So does it mean, you will wipe out the words 'thank you' from your dictionary? Well why haven't you done so already -
crazyTsu, why do you care so much about being thanked? Are you suggesting one can only thank another for acts that are completely altruistic? Are you saying that having underlying selfish motives is bad? If I saved your life because I believed it was the right thing to do, and doing the right thing made me feel good, you would not say "thank you" because I had selfish motives and they were not completely altruistic?
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I think it's irrelevant. It's the deed that matters, not the name we give it. Not the interpretation.-
This is an argument appealing to utility and consequence no matter the motivation. One motivation could even be ill, but if the outcome happened to be positive, the action would be granted a positive value.
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@morgantj: The essence of Randianism. If you're judging from the outside (which I personally find evil,) this is a very logical way of going about things. If you're concerned about yourself or a friend internally, however... -
Randianism is derivitive of Nietzsche... are you promoting such, JJ? -
Notice the second sentence. The problem with Randianism (Nietzsche I am less familiar with, but from what I've heard believe what you say about it being the father philsophy of Randianism) is that people do actually have a soul, in the Socratic/Platonic sense, that can in fact be lost and that requires the strong bonds, love, charity, emotional depth and attachment, sanctity, and romantic altruism that Rand so quickly throws out. Ironically, both Rand and her enemy Marx are, in the end, enemies of the Platonic soul.
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You are right in this, that when I act to "help" someone and myself in the meantime, I do not ask myself if I am alstruist or not. I just do it
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In my opinion, whether or not it makes you feel good, (which is great!), or whether or not any human being can ever be completely altruistic, it is still intrinsically good, and worth doing, to help others! So, I would say it is altruistic enough and I wish more people were like you!-
wrong place
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I think so. Example: back when my pop was staying with me,and I was having to watch his every move,so he wouldn't ...
A. Try to commit suicide
B. Take anything else from me to sell for his fix.
It didn't feel good to me at all,but he needed help and because I love him no matter what...I still help -
Same thing with my cuz Tash...I just let her and her 3 wild kids stay here for a month while we were getting her house liveable again. With having 5 kids under one roof,all 6yrs. And younger...it was pure chaos,but I did it bc I love her,and its just the right thing to do.
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Here is why this is not an altruistic act:
If you didn't let her stay with you , she would possibly be unhappy with you or blame you for the resulting problems, and so you did it to avoid the guilt, disputes, or the loss of trust/friendship. You don't realize that you do it for those reasons, but those are the reasons you do it. If you keep her happy, you stay happier than if you were the result of her unhappiness, simple as that. -
Ummm no,she wasn't happy either livin here. It was an act that needed to be done. It was the right thing to do. Period end of story.
Its not just an act of kindness,its an act of love,and its just the right thing to do.
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So does it mean, you will wipe out the words 'thank you' from your dictionary?
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Well that makes no sense
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wp -
Certainly altruism exists. it simply isn't prevalent
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Maybe for the first time ever, I'm entirely with Holly on this. Sometimes doing the right thing SUCKS, but it still has to be done.
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Agreed.
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Just to clarifie: when I say doing something for someone makes me feel good, I am talking about me and only about me. Dealing with some kind of heavy issues might be very hard, but if I choose to do them, it is because the action I take makes me feel good ( good with my soul).
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Altruism, or good deeds are actually acts of love. Love is always shown by one's actions and not their words. Real love is done for the sake of love, and not for benefits, or even gratitude. Real love is what we all receive from God 24-7, and it is what we should all aspire to give to our brothers and sisters.-
How come I don't feel any love showering down on me from above?
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@muley12: No. If everyone received love from God, no one would be condemned (see John 3: 18 and Mark 3). Fact is, many people do not, for many reasons. They can vary from being overworked and turned in to a beast of burden to having a weak character to simply being close-minded and closed in heart. Once it reaches a certain point, they're cut off forever. Period.
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EXACTLY!!!!
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Yes. Even if there is a benefit afterwards (which, by the way, isn't always true - think death charges on the battlefields of war) if your intention was to do good out of love for another person, it still was altruistic, regardless of the consequences.
Still, it depends upon your definition of "self-centered" whether this would be self-centered. If you mean self-interested, certainly not, at least not in the traditional sense. But if you mean in the sense of coming from the self, coming from the individual, being centered on you and your spirit and soul, it is, indeed, very self-centered in the sense that it eminates from the self.
But this is just the weakness of our own English language, semantics, but semantics that are often misused (without noticing it) to imply something (weak individual = charitable) that is not true. Indeed, the weakest individuals with no sense of who they are can be nothing BUT selfish, as there is no love within them to share, only the cold rationalization of a criminal, and "Why am I dying to live/If I'm just living to die?" (2Pac) -
Yes...gotta love 2 pac!!!
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I'm posting the whole refrain now:
"You know, I wonder if they'll laugh when I'm dead...
Why am I fighting to live
If I'm just living to fight?
Why am I trying to see
When there ain't nothing in sight?
Why am I trying to give
When no one gives me a try?
Why am I diying to live
If I'm just living to die?"
Here's my favorite verse:
"It's on me!
But still I'm havin' memories of high speed
When the cops crashed as I laughed
Pushin' the gas when ma Glocks blast
We was young and we was dumb, but we had heart
In the dark, where we survived through the bad parts
Many dreams is what I had and plenty wishes,
No hesitation in extermination of these snitches
Envious Bitches, they still continue to pursue me
A couple o' movies, now the whole world's tryin' to screw me
Even the cops try to sue me
So what can I do but stay true?
Sippin' 22s of brew?
And now the media's tryin' to test me
Got the press asking questions, trying to stress me
Misery is all I see, that's my mind state
My history with the police is... check the crime rate!
My main man had two strikes slipped
Got arrested and flipped
He screamed "Thug Life!" and emptied a clip
Got tired of runnin' from the police"
FYI: By "two strikes," they're, of course, referring to the Three Strikes law. If you get caught for three crimes, mandatory life.
www.sing365.com/music/lyric.nsf/Running-Dying-To-Live-lyrics-2Pac/748099A0E...
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Such a waste he's gone...
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I know it's sad. I miss him. He had real heart, unlike the rappers who are around today, and really knew how to speak, you know, dirty, but with real meaning. He was a true poet, something which no rapper I know of today is.
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Oh my lord...are you serious. I swear I said those same exact words not to long ago. I bet if he woulda lived,he woulda realized there was more than "thug life" everyone comes to a point of self reflection.
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He said exactly that in several of his songs, especially "Blasphemy":
"Have you ever seen a crackhead, that's eternal fire"
Full lyrics:
www.azlyrics.com/lyrics/2pac/blasphemy.html
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I can't believe I've never heard that one...thx sooooo much! I wanna see a pic of u
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Sorry to say you guys are in left field about God and love. Try 1 Corinthians 13 for starters not tu pac. And we do receive love from God 24-7. The idea of condemnation is perpetuated by religions to keep you under their control. peace
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"but have not love" (verse 1b) Clearly he is saying this partially because this is a real danger. But here's another line from Tupac:
"The preacher want me buried why? Cause I know he a liar
Have you ever seen a crackhead, that's eternal fire"
God doesn't condemn. WE DO. You can also see something very similar to this line in John 3: 19:
"This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil."
Depending upon your translation, this also seems to be implied by John 12, though some translations would seem to imply a literal judgement as well, NKJV most certainly implies the opposite while NIV implies that the judgement is indeed literal. Details. Details. Details.
So how do you know condemnation doesn't happen? I think though, and this is the reason I'm quoting Tupac, one of the biggest mistakes Christians make TODAY is not broadening their scope of literature, culture and arts. The saints of the early church, Paul and St. Augustine especially, most certainly did read both the bible and outside of the bible. You can even claim Christ was fond of Greek Mythology (Luke 16, Lazarus and Rich man, NKJV uses "Hades" despite the fact that he's talking mostly to Jews) and possibly Plato (John 3, conversation with Nicodemus, would explain his agitation with Nicodemus as clearly he's explaining something that would be known but not in Bible, ie, Greek such as the Platonic or Socratic definition of Soul).
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hi Jeremy, you are most certainly right, we condemn ourselves, we are never condemned by God. If you ever seen the movie "What Dreams May Come" is pretty close to the spiritual truth. Be careful taking all the passages in the Bible to heart; the Bible was put together by the Emporor Constantine as a way to get religion help government keep control over the populace. He delibertly omitted the gospals of St. Thomas, St Judas (yes that Judas) etc that spoke of God.s eternal love, and reincarnation.
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The idea of "reincarnation" goes against the very ideal of what a human being is in the Judeo-Christian tradition, especially the Old Testament which was NOT put together by Constantine (see Proverbs, Genesis, Exodus, and 1st and 2nd Samuel). God would not erase your memories and send you back to Earth. He loves the human individual more then anything on Earth, and would make you suffer even the consequences of your own mind for it is the fight that makes you beautiful. But no, it is not about an endless cycle of punishment and reward, that is only a metaphor. "For you did not receive a spirit that makes you a slave again to fear..." (Romans 8: 15)
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Muley, the current canon of the bible was NOT decided by Emperor Constantine. The canon was determined by a council formed decades after Constantine's death (though some people erroneously claim the council of Nicea determined the canon). Before Constantine's time, Jude and Thomas were rejected from the canon, as well as one of the books of Peter, Hebrews, and a couple other books I'm forgetting right now.
The books of the new testament were selected on the basis of their literary integrity and cohesiveness of message. Books such as Jude and Thomas were rejected by several councils because it was proven that they were not written by Jude and Thomas.
Here are some good research materials on this subject: Christianity Through the Centuries, Expanded Third Edition, By Earle Cairns ;
The Bible, the Church, & Authority: The Canon of the Christian Bible in History & Theology, By Joseph Lienhard.
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HI Jeremy I am not here to argue with you; you are free to think and feel as you like. I only hope to give you another point of view that perhaps you will feel is viable. Love is. God is. Peace
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Does real altruism exist you say? Half of the truth is that it does. The other half is that in order for that to exist such a scheme must be set up to sustain such truth, Maybe its real but only temporally. what if it was one's selfish desire to give selflessly to his peers and at giving he knows he has gave and it makes him sustained.
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