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gay
Posted by andelee • 11/18/08 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: Bible, gay
what are your thoughts on the churches and their reaction to the gay community? Do you think that the Bible should not be taken literally?
User Comments
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I don't think the Bible should be taken... AT ALL.-
^---- What he said. -
I'll third that. I believe that religion and state ought to be separate. The Bible is only relevant to "believers". Many Americans are not Christians they and should not have the morality defined in dogma and doctrine from the various Judeo/Christian schisms and cults interpreted from the ancient scriptures foisted upon them.
The American Constitution does not deal with the issuance of marriage licenses. Legal marriage is a state CREATED institution. Legal marriage doesn't EXIST except as state law sets forth.
No couple becomes legally married until after they and their witnesses and the officiating party, who does not have to be a member of the clergy, affix their signatures to the document. This proposition is about denying equal access to government services to all citizens. What this "banning" means is that government will be constrained from allowing same sex couples to apply for and to receive a marriage license like all other couples can do, and thereby secure all the rights and privileges that opposite sex married couples have for themselves and their families.
The "banning" does not change the fact that there are same sex couples. It does not change the variety found in the composition of families. It flies in the face of the excellent upbringing that many have had when raised in extended families that contained gay members by rendering them as second class citizens. Remove all the emotional, spurious and specious propaganda from the events leading up to the vote and what we see is discrimination, plain and simple.
This 52% vote exposes the hypocrisy involved in denying same sex citizens equal access to obtaining a marriage license by re-creating them as a class of second class citizens in a state within a country that claims "equality" is a national cornerstone. It points to the tyranny of the majority and identifies these mean spirited far right wing churches and their actual priorities.
Read the full list at this site mojoey.blogspot.com/2008/11/list-of-churches-supporting-prop-8.html
IMO November 5, 2008 will remain as a shameful day in American history that points to the millions of dollars spent by right wing religious zealots on the creation and distribution of specious, spurious, and fallacious propaganda aimed at stirring up fear and loathing, rather than unity and love. It clarifies the true priorities of church goers are to focus on mean spirited acts rather than on following the "love one another commandments" and "feeding the hungry and healing the sick". -
^ What they all said. -
what that ^ crowd of people said.. -
i agree with the mob
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I think the bible should be taken the way people choose to take it. I don't think religious people should have anything to say to gay people and vice versa. It's a mind ya bizness situation on both ends. It DOES clearly say in the bible that men shall not lay with men, and how people choose to take tht and or apply it to their lives (or not) is up to them. -
I am one of the few Christians that agree with there being a clear separation between church and state. I don't want the government involved in religion, so, it shouldn't work either way. I can honestly say that it doesn't affect me if gay people get married. As long as I have the right to "think" being gay is a sin, as is my religious belief, I honestly don't care if they are pronounced "man and man" or "woman and woman".-
I agree with that fully. I think what some people think in regards to things like prop8 is that it's an oppertunity to express their beleifs. In actuality it's only giving people the right to choose. Not stating your belief religiously.
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"I am one of the few Christians that agree with there being a clear separation between church and state."
So your religious beliefs don't inform your beliefs about the appropriate way for people to interact with one another? Or do you refrain from voting because you know that, as a Christian, your beliefs are tainted by that foundation? -
I think what he means, is that his religious beliefs are seperate from his political ones. I think you can know that according to your personal religion homosexuality is wrong (if you belive that) and still feel like in the country you live in people should be entiteled to their own beliefs, and therefore feel that marriage shoulnd't be regulated according to sexuality.
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I believe gay people should have all the rights that straight people have. Screw the church's discriminatory ideas. -
I think the churches reaction to the gay community is horrific if they were really children of God they wouldn't throw stones. -
As a boy that was molested by priests at 11 years old I find anything they say as laughable and disgusting. Hopefully the pedophelia rings within the church will be removed soon.
But people must have the courage to speak up.-
It's been going on for that long?
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Tony, I know people who have been molested by both teachers and nurses--would you suggest that we disregard everything said by every member of those two professions as well?
@Kobra--actually, the vast majority of the cases in controversy over the past several years date back 20-30 years, and some further. -
Tiff
I'm about to take on the Catholic Church for molesting lots of boys like myself. You can support them if you like. But these are crimes against humanity and I suggest you do not bother commenting about this. As you were not molested by a number of priests you would not understand this issue. -
If it's been going on for this long, why hasn't anything been done about it? Lawsuit settlements don't count.
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It's been going on this long because the church professes that forgiveness is paramount. So what the bishops do is forgive the pedophile priests and transfer them from parish to parish where they demonstrate a pattern of victimizing even more children. Currently in Canada, we are watching on our TV's as priests, who have molested and destroyed the lives of on average over 300 children each, are being brought to justice, despite their advanced age and the protectionism that the catholic church has provided for them.
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The church needs to stop protecting pedophiles.
Also, somewhat relevant video game satire: www.molleindustria.org/en/operation-pedopriest -
My campaign starts today
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Tiff
No hard feelings. I respect the fact that you have your faith.
It's important for people like myself to speak up and it ultimately create a safe environment for children in the churches. And although the process for those that have good intentions and a loving reltationship with God could be painful, people need to be aware that there are hideous hidden networks within the church that are protected by the hierarchy.
In my case, while our mothers were praying in the front rows, the very priests that were giving holy communion and hearing confessions were sodomising their sons.
Yes this happened in the past but we must be sure it never happens again.
And it's my turn to speak out about this now. -
@acousticguitarist
I support you 100%. Unless our generation is willing to step up to the plate, not matter how painful it is for us to do, the disgusting abuse will continue. The best legacy we can leave the next generation comes from mustering the courage to speak our truth to power and bring these corrupt institutions down.
We must NOT allow ourselves to be derailed by those nice "believers" who were not abused and who would rather have us stfu! Do not stfu! Be strong and know that I stand shoulder to shoulder with you.
There is no known cure for pedophilia and the forgiving God squad authorities were not effective in putting an end to the abuse. These sick men in positions of authority over others, authority that most assuredly cannot be coming from "God" must be brought to justice, and be locked up where they cannot re-offend. -
Of interest. One from the local church where I grew up is listed on this site.
brokenrites.alphalink.com.au/nletter/index.html -
Tony, I don't disagree with anything that you've said (and this has nothing to do with my faith--I'd be reacting the same way if you told me you'd been molested by a doctor and now dismissed everything every doctor in the world said). The simple fact, though, is that there's virtually no demographic you can find that doesn't contain at least one child molester--so by your reasoning above no human on earth has any valuable insight or advice to offer because he or she is a member of a group another member of which once molested someone.
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Tiff.
Yeah. I understand your point and sorry if I sounded angry. As you would realise I am a bit pissed off.
It's important that we can help create a safe enviro for all children. This is not soley an issue for the Catholic church. I would love to see all religions be a safe haven for those that go there, a place where people can develop their relationship with God in whatever way they perceive God to be. The campaign I'm starting is a healing campaign, not one of malice. Where men can come out and women speak up, quietly anonymously. And my aim is to motivate those good people within the church to encourage those that have commited such crimes against children to come forward and take resposibilty for their actions. If you knew my story, as a parent you would weep in a way that most of my dear friends have. This is not easy for me to speak up, it's been a long journey. And now the hardest thing is to tell my parents what actually happened to me and the others.
But I must speak up.
you can join my campaign if you wish -
Tony, I do feel for you and everyone who has been through what you have, and I admire the fact that you're speaking out about it and drawing attention to something that every parent needs to be aware of. I would just ask you to remember that every human being is an individual and should not be judged by the words or deeds of another just because they have something in common. I would think that being consciously aware of this would be a help to your cause, because it is so easy to dismiss claims that are too sweeping and because I think that you will find many good people in step with your cause who you might otherwise assume stood on the other side of the fence. Every sane human being wants to see an end to child molestation, and some of the people who have been painted with that brush because of the actions of others and who have seen their own ability to do good hindered because of the mistrust it breeds can be the most outspoken advocates for your cause.
And, of course, your approach here is absolutely in keeping with the core teachings of the church-that confession and penance are necessary to forgiveness and change. Unfortunately, not all humans have that courage, but there is no question that we would all be the better for it if they did--the perpetrators included.
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If a church doesn't want to marry gays, so be it.
Gay marriage should be up to the church or county issuing the marriage certificate.
This argument is so stupid, it's a waste of everyone's time! -
Even accepting that the Bible says homosexuality is wrong, does it give churches the right to conduct pogroms against homosexuals? One may argue that Judaism is wrong. Do we accept pogroms against them? One may argue any number of doctines to be wrong. Do we accept churches conducting pogroms against members of churches who teach differently?
So homosexuality is an issue of morality and not of doctrine? O please! The gays and lesbians I have known have been more exemplary citizens than most Christians.
Literal interpretations of the Bible, are therefore irrelevant to whether churches should be given the right to harm other demographics.-
The sections of Judeo/Christian scripture that right wing religious zealots rely on do NOT address lifelong committed relationships between same sex people.
What they address is the behaviors of same sex temple cult prostitutes that were prevalent in the time that the ancient texts were written. They also address the horrid practice of victorious soldiers raping the soldiers that they conquered on the battlefields that was also prevalent in the times the ancient biblical texts were written.
There's a huge difference between two same sex people in love with each other, who are seeking to acquire the legal benefits and privileges of marriage for themselves and their families, and from the admonitions to abstain from entering same sex temple cult prostitution relationships that existed in ancient times, as well as, the admonitions to abstain from becoming victorious soldiers, who rape the men they conquer on battlefields. -
I hope you do not take from this that a Christian should have the right to conduct campaigns against modern hieroduloi either. The hieroduloi often cited on line as part of human trafficking are not true hieroduloi. These who are in pagan and hermetic backgrounds do so voluntaritly within their own communions.
A hierodule, commonly called a "temple prostitute," more often than not is in a committed relationship also. -
It appears to me that the only campaigns any Christian can become a part of, and make the claim that the same are supported by "God" are found in the New Testament teachings attributed to Jesus of Nazareth.
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I have heard of such campaigns like that in Matthew 10, saying, "I have not come to bring peace but a sword" to support all kinds of acts not excluding murder, arson, rape, and blacklisting. I'm not satisfied with what you mean by this.
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@LynneaUrania
Indeed I am aware of what you speak to and FWIW I am NOT a Christian. -
Well and good, timethief. What then DO you mean? I am pushing for clarity here.
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Its not just the church that doesn;t want to marry gays in most states 60% voted no changeing the morality of a marriage ir man and woman.. Do i think they deserve the same rights as any american yes.. but people really need to understand the differance and it casuses alot of tension not just between the church but other religious and non religious grops as well.. -
I am not gay; I have no interest in marrying or having a sexual/romantic relationship with another woman. However, if someone else wants to have this type of relationship with another person of their same sex, I have no problem with that. They should be able to do so if they please; I don't think I should be involved in the decision as to whether they should do so or not because it something they want to do, therefore their personal decision. -
Well, since i believe sovereign Spirit, that is referred to as God, created us, i think marriage is blessed by It or "Him". I also think that God meant for marriage to be between a man and a woman because they provide a balance to a family. Obviously, men and women are different. Even considering that both have the same views and morals, they would go about things differently and therefore cover more ground cover it better. Of course, there are exceptions, but i think that is one of the reasons why the Spirit would have meant for a family to be under a man and a woman. However, i also feel that we should love everybody, whether we think they aren't living the healthiest lifestyle or not. :]
patienceloveandpleasure.blogspot.com/
musicmovesinmysteriousways.blogspot.com/
freestuffhotdeals.blogspot.com/-
Name six things less healthy about a lesbian relationship than a heterosexual relationship. Hell, name one.
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"Healthy" does not have to refer to anything physical.
But really i was reiterating what i said about there possibly being less balance in the home.
I'm just speculating here... -
[Healthy is not necessarily referring to physical health.]
The only alternative is psychological health. Once again, please show one example of how gay/lesbian relationships are less healthy than heterosexual relationships. -
No, i'm not referring to either physical or psychological. In fact, i never spoke of the health of a human being, so it really would not be either of those.
And i'm not sure, so i'd rather not take a stab at it. I think i've been insulting enough. I wish i could delete my posts, i sincerely apologize. -
Fine, but I'm still not sure what you mean by "healthy" if you're not referring to physical or psychological health. What else is there? (Emotional, etc. fall under psychological.)
[In fact, i never spoke of the health of a human being, so it really would not be either of those.]
What about this?
[However, i also feel that we should love everybody, whether we think they aren't living the healthiest lifestyle or not.]
How can a lifestyle be unhealthy without involving the health (physical or psychological) of a human being? -
Actually, i've just done a bit of reading, and i completely change my mind. My post up there was only a theory, that i have just thrown from my mind. I'm serious. I just love people. :]
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Don't get the wrong idea. I'm not trying to attack you or anything. I just like to ask tough questions.
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I think people that are simply afraid of what they don't know about (being gay) hide behind what they think has credibility (the church). I don't think most people who hate gays or don't support basic rights don't know anything about being gay. They are "follow the leader" type folks without much of an actual opinion.
I also happen to think the church, especially the Catholic Church as lost alot of credibility with the pedophile issues. It's absurd that many of those priests are protected instead of being thrown in prison. I feel bad for Catholic people who follow the faith. -
When I was five I was kinda molested by a boy who was thirteen. It isn't something I usually discuss but for some reason I want to purge these feelings I have kept inside. He shouldn't have done what he did. Even though it was mostly kissing, what in the heck was a thirteen year old boy doing with a five year old girl? Three years later, my brother's best friend, who was sixteen (I was now eight) did the same thing to me. Did I have so much light surrounding me that they were as moths to a flame? I always cherished my innocence and my pure heart, but they robbed me of this. If I could I should tell them off but I have no idea where they could be. Instead, I will forgive them and let these dark matters go. I am free and they are free. It takes courage to forgive and while I nor they were gay, I guess the talk about abusive priests triggered this memory. There are good people who sometimes do bad things. I am sorry for any Catholic priest who ever acted impurely or did abuse. For the most part the priests are good and noble people. The ones who are not make it bad for the good ones. My church is accepting of everyone. It is the sex without marriage part that they discourage. Personally, I believe it is a personal choice and none of the church's business. It is between us and our Creator. He can judge. I believe following your faith is personal and no one has the right to discourage, pity, frown upon or put down someone wanting to have freedom of religion. I also believe people should be free to be happy with anyone of their choice, who is of legal age. Consenting adults should have freedom of their love. Peace to everyone. I shall not feel ashamed anymore about what happened to me as a child. I shall not think of it again.-
@Theresa
I'm so sorry that this abuse happened to you. And I'm proud of you for being able to forgive, to heal and to get on with your own life.
You have said: There are good people who sometimes do bad things. I am sorry for any Catholic priest who ever acted impurely or did abuse. For the most part the priests are good and noble people. The ones who are not make it bad for the good ones.
None of us are above the laws of the land. It's the role of bishops and other authority figures in the church to insure that priests are good shepherds of their flocks, and when they are not, then it's up to the bishops and other authority figures in the church to turn pedophiles over to the police, and let justice run its course.
What we have witnessed is that bishops and other authority figures in the church hid these pedophiles away from the long arm of the law, and repeatedly relocated them to new parishes, where they sexually abused more children over and over again. In Canada we are aware that many of these pedophiles who were repeatedly relocated sexually abused 300 or more children each.
The priests failed their calling and so did the bishops and other authority figures in the church, who acted as if they were above the law. There will be no closure for those who were sexually abused by pedophiles until justice is done and the pedophile priests are put behind bars for life. There will be no trust between those who were abused and the bishops and other authority figures, who chose to hide the pedophiles from the long arm of the law, until they are likewise brought before the courts and justice is done.
Given the horrific events throughout history wherein the church was not seen to be following the commandments attributed to Jesus, and the horrible consequences of the authority figures in the churches acting as if they were "little gods" who were above the law, it's not surprising that the institutions are regarded with contempt by many today and a exodus from the churches has taken place. -
Priests who abuse are not above the law and they should be disavowed of their priesthood. For all of the good priests who are above reproach and are such good upstanding leaders, for them I am glad they have chosen this life of servitude and their guidance for their parishioners. My faith in the church is founded on good principles and I make no apology for my beliefs. Free country.
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I think the bible should be taken as interpreted by those who believe in the bible.
I think the churches position (not "reaction") on homosexuality is their position, and only their position - as long as everyone understands that not everyone has that position, I think we'll be all set.-
Agreed.
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I think people should read the Bible any way they want to--personally, I take it as a mishmash of stuff written by people a long time ago, including some beautiful poetry, some interesting myths, some positive ideas, and some really nasty, ugly stuff--condoning slavery, calling for the death penalty for children who disobey their parents, telling the Israelites to commit atrocities against other tribes, and, yes, condemning homosexuality.
The issue is whether a literal reading of those two or three passages of the Bible that seem to condemn homosexuality should be part of our system of laws, to which I say of course not.-
"The issue is whether a literal reading of those two or three passages of the Bible that seem to condemn homosexuality should be part of our system of laws, to which I say of course not."
I've said before that I'm not in favor of codifying my religious beliefs, so this isn't in response to your conclusion here, just the reference to those limited passages in the Bible. Most of those who oppose same-sex marriage on Biblical grounds do not do so based on the fleeting references to homosexual behavior but on the extensive discussion of marriage. -
Marriage as between a man, woman, and God? That's how my anti-gay marriage Christian relatives put it. At the same time, they attended my brother's atheist wedding, and, as far as I know, aren't trying to make laws against non-Christian (or non-religious) marriages.
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Jay, I'm not sure I get your point--is it that because one set of self-described Christians makes a particular distinction, that calls the whole analysis into question?
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There are who knows how many churches in America and I'm sure the reaction was diverse.
As to the bible, portions of it are indeed meant to be taken very literally, other portions are not.
John 1:1 - 14, take it literally. -
"what are your thoughts on the churches and their reaction to the gay community? Do you think that the Bible should not be taken literally?"
1. The "church" that is of Jesus Christ follows His instructions; seeing that Jesus Christ is God and as such - forbids the practice of homosexuality.
2. I, as a follower of Jesus Christ, have grieved over the "church" hating the sinner and not that sin that separates that person from the love and forgiveness of God... though, in most instances, the "church" that is of Jesus Christ, actually loves the sinner because we too, were once lost and in need of forgiveness which only He can give.
3. The Bible better be taken literally and figuratively - because it is God's instruction to each of us; whether we believe it or not makes no difference to its truths within its pages.
4. Lastly, I am always amazed at the amount of bible "experts' populating this forum; who seem to know with authority what is and is not taught in the Bible. Strangely enough, if one does not believe the bible is to be taken literally, then why are you all working so hard to disprove what is said in its pages? God has an answer for this too... "your conscience bears witness to the truth."-
"your conscience bears witness to the truth."
Amen!
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No...clearly it should not be taken literally. that is a fundamentalist ideal...but they do pick and choose what they choose to take literally. www.northernvox.com -
I believe the Bible to be the word of God so I do take it literally but it also is a book of poetry so you have to know how to read it to get it's full meaning.
Considering the gay life style. I believe it is a sin but it is not the sin I as a Christian should focus on. I should focus on the sin in my own life and if anyone claims they have none they are sinning because they are lying.
If we remove the plank in our own eyes we will be able to clearly see the sin in others. Matthew 7:1-6 But we tend to see their sin instead of our own. -
The church as a whole doesn't prohibit gay marriage - just some misguided (at best) or hate mongering (at worst) denominations do.
The Christian denomination that I belong to performs gay marriages and has an active GLBT presence at their bi-yearly national meetings; unfortunately, the state discriminates against the spouses and the church by not aknowleging the union. -
The Bible contains six admonishments to homosexuals and 362 admonishments to heterosexuals. That doesn't mean that God doesn't love heterosexuals. It's just that they need more supervision. ~Lynn Lavner-
rofl
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