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Gays & Lesbians of Faith
Posted by Pasquella • 18 days ago • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: documentary, gay christians, gays and lesbians, homosexuality, lgbt
I don't know which category this goes under, but I am looking for people who are gay or lesbian who have faith in a religion - any religion, or even if they are atheist. I want to hear their views and backgrounds. I'm doing a documentary on this and we are willing to travel to a degree to do this. The trailer of my documentary is found here: dtrant.blogspot.com/2009/11/gays-lesbians-of-faith.html
If you, or if you know anyone who is interested in doing a 15 minute interview, please let me know. You can email me at deb@debrapasquella.com
I'm a new independent filmmaker as well as author and would love too see if any of you would like to be part of it.
Thanks! 
User Comments
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anyone i know who is gay isn't really involved in religion. Northern Ireland is still an incredibly small minded place when it comes to being open and welcoming to others deemed as "different"!
the only issue here is likley to be "are you a protestant gay/lesbian or a catholic gay/lesbian"?...
good luck with the docu, please send me a link to it when it's done. -
I'm a Christian lesbian and so is my wife. My minister who married us is also of Christian faith. We're trying to get the word out there that we're here! With biblical scriptures to back us up, as you can see, the Rev. David Clarke in that short clip explains about the actions and not about the literal interpretations of homosexuality. If homosexuality is a sin, then so is eating shellfish... he makes it clear in the quick clip I had just put up.
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Haha, biblical scriptures to back you up? Uh, no.
Even though Scripture CLEARLY admonishes against homosexuality, it's no different than christians who smoke, or christians that get divorced for anything other than sexual infidelity. Everyone sins and so everyone is a "lawbreaker" according to Scriptures. That doesn't make them evil just as in sin does not equate evil. Sin is just "missing the mark" or "falling short" or a "mistake". What gets to me is when people try and find loopholes (that are never there)around their sin so they can justify their actions.
It sounds to me like an interesting documentary, but I'm not sure why our culture blows up something so small and minute like a sexual preference into a lifestlye, wardrobe, and possibly dialog.
It's like Twilight lovers starting to wear all black and fake fangs. -
I don't understand it either, UncleBeau. More people need to see it your way. Sadly, many many people don't see it that way. Can you talk to them? :-) -
"I'm not sure why our culture blows up something so small and minute like a sexual preference into a lifestlye, wardrobe, and possibly dialog."
What the heck does that mean? -
@UB: I mostly agree with you, but when you accept something as a sin, you accept it as ungodly and out of place, and you do have to take it seriously or else admit that you don't believe it's sin. Otherwise, it's just superficial, it's a phony apology and though we will all give those from time-to-time, that too is sin. So do you accept what Christ is saying or not? Do you think it might be misinterpreted? Do you think it might not actually be what Christ said, or perhaps the misrepresentation was further down the line in the original law? We'll discuss it, we may all learn something but don't resort to games.
Sin is evil. As for the sinner? I guess that depends on where you draw the line - draw it too far to the right and we're all evil, draw it too far to the left and even Hitler, Stalin and Satan himself can be justified. In any case, what business have anyone in judging others? Why not focus on progress and learning and growth rather then regressing in to our disagreement, condemnation and stagnation?
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I am a Christian! No one who professes to be gay would want to be identified as Christian. The two are two opposite things-
I think that's a little bit of a stretch since the OP just stated that she is homosexual and she and her legal wife are Christians.
So there goes that theory. -
Unless of course you see scripture wrong, or are using it incorrectly. Even Paul himself said: "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." (1 Corinthians 13: 12, KJV)
Not that I personally feel that but did feel it was necessary to point out the obvious questions.
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Pasquella -
be prepared for some very small minded folks to come in here and not be so nice.
Know that they do not represent the majority.-
I second that.
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And I guess I third that! I have quite a few friends who are gay and lesbian. They're regular people living regular lives. -
i'll fourth it. I am muslim and like girls and had encounters with them. so guess I am doomed to hell, lol!
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best of luck with your documentary -
Uncle Beau says, "Even though Scripture CLEARLY admonishes against homosexuality, it's no different than christians who smoke, or christians that get divorced for anything other than sexual infidelity."
Leviticus is the Old Law, and when you get into the new testament, you will see that it is no longer condemned, the act of promiscuity is. If we all went by Leviticus, then it would be an abomination to eat shellfish or to shave your beard. But, see, this isn't where I wanted this thread to go. It's all about different faiths of different beliefs.
There is no "ONE WAY" in this world, which is why I want to demonstrate how different each culture and religious belief is, through the eyes of someone who is homosexual and how they reconcile their faith and their lifestyle. Your belief is yours. I respect that, but I wasn't posting this for a debate, I was asking if anyone knew people who would be interested in doing this documentary - even if it is an opposing view.
Opposing views are always welcomed in a healthy way. Healthy debates are good, until it's one way or no way.
Thanks for your response guys!-
One of my very dear friends is a gay man in San Francisco. I'm sure he would have something to say about this and would love to have his voice heard. I'll pass along your info and see if he can help.
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But the cultural commandments were specifically addressed by Christ when he talked about circumcision not profiting a man but circumcision of the heart and "What goes into a man's mouth does not make him 'unclean,' but what comes out of his mouth, that is what makes him 'unclean'" (Matthew 15:11), while this never was justified by Christ and is clearly mentioned in 1st Corinthians (Chapter 6, verse 9 to be exact) as an offense.
It is true that the old law is no longer executed in the fashion that it formerly was, as a dictatorial code of punishments and rewards, stonings and taxes, under the Third Covenant with Isreal, but indeed, the law has not passed way, but is instead enforced through the hearts of men. Christ did not say it exactly like this, as Ancient Isreal and most of the peoples around it did not understand the idea of honor, it is in the end what he refers to.
All of us have progress to make maam, but don't submit to fear and falsehood when truth rears its teeth at you like a dragon, for though it may be scary, fierce and carnivorous, and will indeed devour you if you are afraid of it, but if you can take it by its throat and cut it open its' blood and armor-like skin is worth more then all the fine gems and gold in the world. Beyond this, you inherit the pride and glory of one who has done something amazing, indeed worked miracles.
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Deciding to jump right on this boat.
Fact: I am Catholic, Married and Heterosexual.
Fact: The bible was all for men with multiple wives. It is outlawed here. Wow.
Fact: The bible was against fornication outside of marriage.
Fact: The Apostles were mostly married men. Yet in the fifth century priests were no longer to be married.
Fact: If Jesus were to be in on this discussion, He would not (in my humble opinion) condemn anyone His Father created, to be an outcast.
Fact: Jesus collected the poor, downtrodden, the sick, the diseased and social outcasts.
I try to stay away from religious discussions where one person touts their snobbish opinions in calling others sinners. What was that He said? Right! "Let anyone without sin cast the first stone."
We all were created in God's image and for all people that believe this, consider God The Creator by any name, may be a man, woman, gay or straight. He does not turn His back on any of His children, and those are the ones who love Him. Love is the key. Love is innocent and pure. When we drop the barriers we all were taught to hold as just, then we will understand that man interpreted His words or meanings incorrectly.
I will send you an e-mail as you requested as I have some beautiful people in mind for your project. Much success.-
Just to be clear here, I was responding primarily to UncleBeau and to ckent27 and not in a heated way, just as a reasoning point.
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Your avitar makes me hungry.
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My avatar has a recipe:
Lemon Meringue Pie. -
I agree with you, and indeed am against condemnation for the most part, though I would say to all of you to not let the smoke from the fires of your heart disturb your eyes.
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My mind is just, my heart is open and my vision is clear.
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Pasquella,
You wrote above, "There is no "ONE WAY" in this world...." However, Jesus said of himself, "I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." There is a conflict there.
Now, if you have that wrong, and I say you do, then why are you sure that you have interpreted Jesus correctly concerning homosexuality, which I also say, you have not?
Nevertheless, may God bless you.
Peace,
Tom-
You may be mincing your terms here Tom. Way in "the way, the truth and the life" and way in "one way through this world" are referring to different things. In the first case, the way to God, heaven, forgiveness, self-improvement, et cetera, and in the other pragmatically how you live your life day-to-day.
Still, she may want to look in to the Corinthians quote and figure it out for herself.
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Tom, when I said that there was no "one way" in this world, what I meant by that is that we can't just deny that there are people of different faiths, such as Judaism or being a Muslim or any other religion that takes Jesus out of the equation. For me, Jesus is the only way, but I'm not going to shove that down someone's throat.
This was not meant to be a discussion for "Christian rules"-----this was a discussion about anyone wanting to take part in a documentary of whatever faith they are and how they reconcile their lifestyle.
However, since Jeremy got into it - I want to reply to his comment:
Through faith, we are God’s children. Galatians explains this perfectly.
God’s Children Through Faith
Let me put it in another way. The law was our guardian and teacher to lead us until Christ came. So now, through faith in Christ, we are made right with God. But now that faith in Christ has come, we no longer need the law as our guardian. So you are all children of God through faith in Christ Jesus. And all who have been united with Christ in baptism have been made like him. There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female. For you are ALL Christians—you are one in Christ Jesus. And now that you belong to Christ, you are the true children of Abraham. You are his heirs, and now all the promises God gave to him belong to you. ~Galatians 3:24-29
There is a huge difference between sinning and a sinful heart. Sinning is simply being human. A sinful heart desires to sin – it wants to hurt people and deliberately wants to steal your joy. A human that sins is natural. We repent and have faith in God. We no longer go by the laws of Moses. This is why God gave us His only son. We are freed from the law.
Here… Look at Galatians 2:17-21
"But what if we seek to be made right with God through faith in Christ and then find out that we are still sinners? Has Christ led us into sin? Of course not! Rather, I make myself guilty if rebuild the old system I already tore down. For when I tried to keep the law, I realized I could never earn God’s approval. So I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ. I myself no longer live, but Christ lives in me. So I live my life in this earthly body by trusting in the Son of God, who loved me an gave himself for me. I am not one for those who treats the grace of God as meaningless. For if we could be saved by keeping the law, then there was no need for Christ to die."
Pretty huge statement if you think about it. “For if we could be saved by keeping the law, then there was no need for Christ to die.”
If you constantly live in fear about God’s judgment, then your faith in Jesus isn’t strong. If you truly had faith in Jesus and claimed Him as your Savior, then you would know that the old law doesn’t apply to us anymore. We were bound by the law, but by the grace of God and His sacrifice of His son, we are made right with him.
We live in our carnal bodies. We live here on earth, desiring earthly things. But if we have faith that’s strong and true, God isn’t going to just cast you away. God loves you. He knows how hard it is and what challenges we go through here on earth. This is the whole reason Jesus came for us. And, I truly feel sad when people make statements such as, “Well, you’re mocking God because you won’t repent and you keep on sinning and claiming Christ as your Savior.”
If you really think about it, those people who say that are mocking God by not trusting in Jesus’ death. They don’t feel that Jesus’ death was enough. He paid the price in full.
The funny thing is, yesterday afternoon while I was driving back home, I was listening to the Christian radio. This speaker was talking all about Galatians and how the others weren’t convinced that we were totally freed from the law. They missed the entire point of Jesus’ death.
It all boils down to faith and love. Faith in God – faith in knowing that God gave a huge sacrifice to us in order to be free! Why can’t people accept this wonderful gift that Jesus gave to us? Why are we insecure about God’s unconditional love for us? People claim to be Christians, but they have such little faith in what Jesus did for us. It almost breaks my heart that there are people out there so focused on the sins of this world, that it literally consumes them. Sin is on earth whether we like it or not.
They say that homosexuals are going to hell. They say that loving another person of the same gender is an abomination. You can read all about it in Leviticus. Again, it’s all found in the Old Testament. I can get into the whole shellfish scenario and sitting on the same couch with a woman who is menstruating, but it’s all been said before. Those sins no longer apply to us. (Christians) Those sins are the ones that Jesus came to save us from.
I’m not saying to go out and hurt people intentionally, but free yourself from all the guilt, from all the pain that guilt provides and know that Jesus paid the full price.-
Pasquella,
I know of a student group of LGBT Catholics at the University of Michigan. There may be someone there who can help you. I will shout you with more info.
- Julia -
I would be careful building an entire theology off of a single passage, especially from an epistle. Each one of those epistles was written for a group of people who had their own religious and other traditions that the writers were trying their best to reconcile to Christianity, and Galatians was the epistle written for the people most closely related to the Scots-Irish. Have you tried reading Luke 13 and John 3? Those two together provide a very good explanation of the nature of sin, grace, love, and forgiveness.
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I have always found it very interesting the degree in which people follow the bible's word verbatim. We update and alter our cars, our text books, our encyclopedias, our laws, our roads, our medicines, our produce, our expectations and social guidelines...but the bible is taken as law by so many without converting it's guidelines into modern day terms. Regardless of what you beleive this comes down to two VERY bacis things:
1) God created us all as equal, we are all his children.
2) People do not choose to be homosexual. They are born that way no matter how long it takes them to come to terms with it.
Because of this you cannot condemn anyone for their sexual preferences. Homosexuality is not a perversion, it's a lifestyle and it should be respected as such. By the people, by the law and by the church.
Exchanging scriptures and quoting versus does nothing. The bottom line is that their are more important things to be considered in the bible then who puts what where and why.-
I'm not religious in any sense but I love this comment anyway. More people should think like you.
Five stars! * * * * *
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Hello All,
jeremyjanson,
In my book, "the way" is the way of life both here and now and hereafter. The means and the ends are one. Also in my book, it is the most pragmatic path. The most pragmatic thing to do here and now is to adhere to the best of our individual and collective efforts to the right teaching, path, way, doctrine, or whatever synonym you prefer.
I consider my brother Jesus (our brother if we are of the same root-spirit) still to be the best heard. I've read and listened, etc., in search for answers. I've come across none better. I trust you agree. Jesus said to do the things here, now. It's not easy, especially because, as I know you know, the worldly system seeks to prevent it. That worldly system even murdered Jesus and many, many others and isn't done yet, far from it. From that perspective, which I ask you to consider in full, I did not mince my words. I do thank you for saying that I "may be mincing" rather than I am mincing.
Pasquella,
Depending upon the circumstances, I too can appreciate it when discussions don't go too far a field from one initially narrowly set.
Had you not answered concerning homosex in general, I likely would not have raised anything here. I do though see where in an open environment such as BlogCatalog it's not beyond the pale for someone openly to question the premises of your endeavor.
However, more to my specific approach, we obviously run in different circles; and since you used "ONE WAY" with so much emphasis and concerning a discussion where one major part is religion, per se, I chimed in over issues of extreme ecumenism and syncretism.
In the circles in which I've mostly functioned, when one asserts that there are many ways in terms of religion, he or she is always referring to many paths to ultimate enlightenment. This is the argument of many (the vast majority) of Hindus for instance, who take exception to Jesus's words about himself unless those Hindus falsely turn Jesus into just one of many gurus/avatars who have come along with more and greater to follow, one who will correct Jesus. Many Buddhist also subscribe to this concept. Many in the Emergent and Charismatic Movements leave doors wide open to this sort of thing. I've seen ostensible Christians claim that one may be simultaneously a Muslim and Christian, which is completely untrue. In fact, this is the first discussion I've seen where the religion is an integral focus where "the way" has been used exclusively mundanely especially without simultaneous qualification/clarification.
Let me say that I believe different souls have different partial-truths at any given time. Just because you are a lesbian doesn't mean to me that you are automatically wrong in all you say or are even less right than others who call themselves Christian and are heterosexual in both word and deed, including even monogamous and faithful in that. There are other issues besides these where consistency enters in, such as war and greed and peace and giving and sharing, etc.
Let me also say that by stating these things, I am not shoving anything down anyone's throat. I don't say that by way of suggesting that you intended it that I was shoving. I say it only to preclude further misunderstanding. I am a total pacifist and opposed to coercing anyone unless the power of moral suasion from word of truth not meant in anything but the spirit of wholesomeness and healing is considered force, which in the proper context, it certainly is.
So, I don't vote in secular elections for or against your decision as a female to engage in sex with a female. I do want the law of the real and New Heaven to come to Earth and to become one with it. I say it will and already has in part. That divine law does exclude the confusion of same-sex sexual intercourse and in very fact, all sexual intercourse, as we will not be confined to the procreation of the flesh apart from the Holy Spirit.
I realize this is quite spiritual; but if I don't say it, I'll be failing. In that sense, I'm forced or compelled by the movement too ultimate righteousness. It is a very narrow progression in the movement to a specific place. Homosex drops away in the here and now or progress stops short. I am certainly not interested in taking my cues from lesser evolved flesh, as in homosexual confusion amongst even the non-Homo sapiens we refer to as animals. That direction leads to the reptilian brain or proverbial serpent who is the spirit of Satan of whom we read in the Bible and as Jesus used that name.
Lastly, as for literal interpretation versus figurative, I am steeped in the figurative while seeing the literal playing out all the time.
If my peace is rejected, I leave with it. I say the peace is the truth, is the one and only way, always. I say Jesus said and still says this and that it will never prove wrong no matter how much anything appears to change. There is no such thing as updating the eternal.
As for Paul, I'm not Pauline for many reasons. However, there is the law and then the law and then the law. The law of Moses is not the secular today and neither of those is the divine law of which Jesus lived and lives. It is divine law that interests me. When I say, "Thy kingdom come," it is that law I ask to come here. The Pauline very often turns into hedonism via hyper-antinomianism. One may as well self-license as a self-styled Christian to drunken orgies in the churches, which I'm sure has happened.
Jesus went to the cross to bring you the real law. The grace of God is not an excuse. Don't say, "LORD, LORD" or "Lord, Lord" and think it's enough. Your faith is to be strong enough to quit obvious carnal confusion. Jesus did not pay the price to ransom those who willfully keep following the blind into the ditch or who preach to lead others with them, since wickedness loves company. God's love includes allowing Satan to have souls. The God of Jesus does not block Satan from taking souls and tormenting them.
What you need to do is to ask yourself who is Satan in relation to what you are doing and preaching. You are here proselytizing you know. It sounds very clear to me that you are acknowledging that your relationship is sinful but that it is forgiven even though you do not break it off. Jesus didn't say go and continue sinning. You know that.
"Sin is on earth whether we like it or not." Well, I don't like it, and it's not going to stay. Sin and the willfully iniquitous, according to Jesus, get separated out. Would it have already happened except that there are lost sheep yet to be found.
As for Leviticus, if you leave it completely out, you are still left with Jesus's clear admonitions against all the various forms of selfishness and harm that he was not obligated to list in some exhaustive, anticipatory, list for the literalists of which you make yourself here in convenience.
He did not say don't have sex with your dog, did he? No, he didn't. Are you going to say that just because he didn't say verbatim not to be homosexual that he licensed it. Well, if we go by that, then anything he didn't name is licensed in Heaven. I know that, that is not correct. In addition, there are many verses that show that Jesus was adamantly opposed to the same sexual deviation Moses also found to be error. Jesus definitely did not throw out all of Moses's teachings. He removed the hypocrisy. He did not remove the prohibition against homosexuality, for it is hypocrisy. If you re-read in complete honesty your own writing here, you will see it.
So, I don't support your project. How I can not do that while asking for God's blessing on you, I reconcile.
Peace-
longest comment i ever read, damn!! well saw because there is no way in life i am ever gonna read all this crap.
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me either.
I highly recommend the movie "For the Bible Tells Me So"
www.forthebibletellsmeso.org/film.htm -
@TU: While Christ certainly is "the Lord of the living" and I did note that this would include parts of how you live your life and your objectives, at the same time to claim that what God has given all for (free-will) is inherently evil, unrighteous, or not useful seems quite a stretch. Fact is, you are you, and to claim that Christ wants you to destroy you and threatens you with damnation if you don't is grotesque and indecent and cheapens the entire message of the Gospel and all the Bible. It also cannot be reconciled with Christs own teachings about the fruit of the heart and the importance of love, nor can it be reconciled with the old testament and its teachings about justice.
I'm still not entirely sure what Christ died for, but I've looked at both your suggestions (a new law and unconditional forgiveness) and have not been persuaded by either. God does not have to kill Christ to impose on people, nor does he have to kill his own son to forgive your sins. I know he is my Lord, and he performed many miracles and rose from the grave, but what he really died for I still don't entirely know.
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maybe because the definition of Christian to you is one who goes to Church and who is not muslim, or buddhist or any other religion.
Christianity is a relationship with the Lord Jesus Christ. When you're a believer you don't confess you are homosexual. You maybe ex-homosexual but now has been transformed by God!-
Bwahahahah, lol! So just stay in the closet Fvck a lot a dudes and you are okay. Religion is so hypocritical. Actually I take that back. People are so hypocritical.
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Be respectful please.
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Theresa I am sure you are not adressing me?
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Homosexuality is no more of a sin than any other, but it is still a sin. Therein lies the problem. For those who have embraced their homosexuality do not want to believe that they are doing anything wrong. Therefore, there is no confession of their sin, and with no confession, there can be no forgiveness.
No, I am not talking about going to a church to confess before a priest. For what I am talking about is between ourselves and our Heavenly Father.
Hopefully, a homosexual will be delivered from their affliction after they have asked to be, but this is not always the case. For our Heavenly Father will often leave someone where they are in order to make the kind of love that He can receive from them all the more satisfying to Him. For it is relatively easy to love someone who treats you good, but it is another thing entirely when they appear to treat you badly.
Nonetheless, even if a homosexual is not delivered from their affliction, this does not mean that it is okay. For a man having sex with another man, or a woman having sex with another woman, is an abomination in the sight of our Heavenly Father. In fact, just wanting to is, as well.
Hence, the part about Him appearing to treat you badly. He promises to more than make it up to all who will but want to give Him the full benefit of their consider doubts, however.
Be assured that I do not say these things without any regard to those who are suffering. For I have been left as I naturally am to a much greater extent than I would like to be. Granted, I have never been afflicted with homosexuality, but I consider my own sinfulness to be more than I would like to bear.
As in regards to there being more than one way to have fellowship with our Heavenly Father, but assured that there is not. For no one can truly have such with Him without first accepting His only begotten as truly being their own personal Lord and Savior.
Now, this is not to say that He is not already there for those who have not truly accepted Christ Jesus as their own personal Lord and Savior. For it is only through the Father that we can come to accept the Son, but there is no true relationship going on until that takes place.
Yes, it all naturally sounds so ridiculous, and that makes it all the more spectacular when it happens. Be assured that nothing will be the same after it does.-
"For no one can truly have such with Him without first accepting His only begotten as truly being their own personal Lord and Savior."
Or at the very least, if they REJECT Him they cannot. There was most certainly people who knew the Father long before the Son was born, and there is some question as to whether he is a personal Savior or a collective one. Anyways, study John 3 carefully because the church has gotten it pretty wrong and it's not easy to summarize.
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"Now, this is not to say that He is not already there for those who have not truly accepted Christ Jesus as their own personal Lord and Savior. For it is only through the Father that we can come to accept the Son, but there is no true relationship going on until that takes place."
*****Here are my beliefs*******
I have accepted the Lord Jesus as my personal Savior and I do have a relationship with Him. I am also married to my wife ------of the same gender through a minister who is also Christian. If you take a look at the video, you'll see where there is no reference that is made to Jesus saying that homosexuality is a sin. This was taken out from the Old Testament.
What about someone eating shrimp or lobster? Do they go to hell too?
What about a man shaving his beard?
What about sitting next to a woman who is menstruating, and how do we even know these days?
What about those laws? They no longer apply since Jesus abolished those laws when He died on the cross. Throughout the New Testament, they speak about the actions of sexuality, whether it was between a man and a woman or two of the same genders.
What about a divorced woman who remarries while her ex-husband is still alive?
What about premarital heterosexual sex?
Are we all going to hell?
The story of Sodom and Gomorrah was based up on rape----not homosexuality. Many people misinterpret these scriptures.
However, again, I will say whether you believe in Christianity or whatever God you worship, I was only pointing out that there are many gays and lesbians who are spiritual ---so I was asking if anyone was interested or knew someone that wanted to be in the film... Nothing in this film is going to be debated upon. It's all about personal experiences. But if you wanted to debate on here and tell me that I'm going to hell, then back it up with valid scriptures and I will back mine up too.
But it'll never end.
Because everyone has a different interpretation of the scriptures. Everyone has a different relationship with God. We're not to judge one another ---and the biggest commandment of all is to love God with all your heart and to love each other as we do ourselves...-
I already gave you one. Why is that scripture invalid for this purpose? Christ never said that the law was passing away, and in fact said effectively that he was merely restoring Moses and the Prophets to there proper, pre-Pharisee place. But beyond this, don't you think there was a purpose to the law. If you want to resolve this or help your friends secure their rights at all, you will need to answer these questions.
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Tom, "not having sex with your dog" would be under bestiality...
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LOL. Besides, aren't most people who decide to have sex with animals rednecks?
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Jeremy:
Let me put it in another way. The law was our guardian and teacher to lead us until Christ came. So now, through faith in Christ, we are made right with God. But now that faith in Christ has come, we no longer need the law as our guardian. So you are all children of God through faith in Christ Jesus. And all who have been united with Christ in baptism have been made like him. There is no longer Jew or Gentile, slave or free, male or female. For you are ALL Christians—you are one in Christ Jesus. And now that you belong to Christ, you are the true children of Abraham. You are his heirs, and now all the promises God gave to him belong to you. ~Galatians 3:24-29
But what if we seek to be made right with God through faith in Christ and then find out that we are still sinners? Has Christ led us into sin? Of course not! Rather, I make myself guilty if rebuild the old system I already tore down. For when I tried to keep the law, I realized I could never earn God’s approval. So I died to the law so that I might live for God. I have been crucified with Christ. I myself no longer live, but Christ lives in me. So I live my life in this earthly body by trusting in the Son of God, who loved me an gave himself for me. I am not one for those who treats the grace of God as meaningless. For if we could be saved by keeping the law, then there was no need for Christ to die.
Galatians 2: 17-21
Those are the scriptures that reference that the old law has been abolished once Jesus died upon the cross. Those who do not fully believe that Jesus' death was enough will still believe in the old law.-
It's not so much that I don't believe Jesus' death was enough as that I don't think abandoning the law is actually a good idea and may eventually cause you to be the "branch in me that bears no fruit" (John 15: 2, NIV) by the results of your own actions. Or, put it a different way:
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son,[f] that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. 18Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because he has not believed in the name of God's one and only Son.[g] 19This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but men loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what he has done has been done through God." (John 3: 16-21)
Your actions still have an effect, but it is the spiritual destruction inside of you, rather then arbitrary judgement and rules, that you have to fear. Indeed, Hell may not even be a physical place for all we know, but it certainly exists whatever it is, it is certainly eternal, and if it is a physical fire, it's nothing but a fireworks show for people who can't seem to realize that, by that point, you're already destroyed and cursed over and over again and I'd be hardly surprised if the fires were a relief to you.
But no, being gay will not condemn you, and this is your responsibility, not mine. It is the heartfelt results of sins, rather then the sins themselves, that condemn. I'm merely asking you to realize that the law does serve a useful purpose and find its' place in your life.
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Jeremy, I absolutely love that scripture, however there is not one reference to homosexuality in there. You haven't said anything regarding the scriptures that I provided which state that the old law no longer exists - so why was there a need for Jesus to die upon the cross? I am married to a wonderful woman monogamously and the base of our marriage is GOD. We are both practicing Christians and pray together. There is no "spiritual destruction" inside of me - how can you even say that or judge? You don't know me. If anything, my spiritualness and more so, my relationship with God is number one in my life.
You can ramble off all the scriptures you want, but you are not referencing to the main topic that I speak of. This is why so many people are discouraged of Christianity itself....from judgmental people.
God is love. God is forgiving, or He wouldn't have brought His only Son for us to die upon the cross. And remember, everyone falls short...everyone.-
So why should the homosexuality ban (by ban I mean in the sense of against your inner law) be ditched in your opinion? The example passage of a homosexuality ban, to clarify, is the one I mentioned earlier from 1st Corinthians...
EDIT: I'm asking you this question because everyone will.
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Good luck with the film, can't wait to see it! -
Pasquella,
Since you are not the only one here and since so many souls are on the line, I add this in direct response to you even though it is obvious that you ignore the truths contained in my earlier comment.
You say you have accepted Jesus, but you also ask the question: "What about a divorced woman who remarries while her ex-husband is still alive?" If you accept Jesus, why do you ask? He was clear and plain about it. He said what is and what is not the sin of adultery. He also forgave. Did he forgive the unrepentant too? Yes, he did. What he didn't do is tell you or me or anyone else where we have it in writing passed down to us exactly where each soul will end up. He did refer to Peter as Satan, but Peter is where now? He did say that there are many mansions in God's house. Is Hell flat by analogy? I don't read it that way.
"The story of Sodom and Gomorrah was based up on rape----not
homosexuality." It covers both. That spirit that conversed with Abraham was the same as gave to Moses. Do you doubt it? Do you believe that the spirit that destroyed Sodom was not the voice that told Moses to kill the homosexuals? This notion about Sodom not being about homosex doesn't work. No one who truly loves the truth will buy it upon reflection.
Also, you want to be sure not to accuse others of judging in the sense where Jesus does not judge. I have not seen in this discussion anyone judging you, condemning you, calling down the wrath against you, or seeking your punishment but rather warning you against doing those things that lead to those things, just as Jesus did.
Lastly, "...back it up with valid scriptures and I will back mine up too," suggests that valid scriptures contradict each other; however, Jesus gave an enhanced, new law that was always the real law but was just too good for humans to grasp and to hold. We are to change and to change that.
"And he answered and said unto them, Have ye not read, that he which made them at the beginning made them male and female, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his wife: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder." (Matthew 19:4-6)
Now, if you can read that to allow that "at the beginning made them male, And said, For this cause shall a man leave father and mother, and shall cleave to his husband: and they twain shall be one flesh? Wherefore they are no more twain, but one flesh. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder," then may God have mercy on you because Satan, the author of such a confused interpretation, won't.
Furthermore, Jesus said, "And thou, Capernaum, which art exalted unto heaven, shalt be brought down to hell: for if the mighty works, which have been done in thee, had been done in Sodom, it would have remained until this day." (Matthew 11:23)
Since Jesus upheld the law of Moses but only removed the harmful hypocrisy, then certainly he would not say what he said in Matthew 19 while also saying that homosexuality is acceptable in the eyes of God. Were he to do so, he would be a hypocrite, no one to lead to God, and I would not call him my spiritual brother in God.
The people here who have written in opposition to homosexuality are not going to stone you. Can't you see what kind of people they are? They are not following the Mosaic law verbatim or advocating it. They are following Jesus's New Testament example as God has given them to do it.
Pasquella, you are conveniently being selective and still mistaken. You wrote, "Tom, "not having sex with your dog' would be under bestiality...." This does not address my point. I said he did not list out all sexual sins. Obviously though, you hold that bestiality is wrong. Why? There are those who do not. They will want their rights. What will you tell them that you entered in and closed the door behind you because they are the new homosexuals? That's exactly what the Church is not to be about. It is to be about informing you too to leave your sins behind.
I see that you duck and remain redundant in error. I will look once again but then shake the dust as all real Christians do and will, per Jesus.
Peace to all,
Tom -
@Jeremy: You are most correct that many knew our Heavenly Father before Christ Jesus was revealed. In fact, it was not until Moses that our Heavenly Father's name was even made known, and yet all who lived before then were given the same access to Him as all who came afterward. The part that far too many have misunderstood is that our Heavenly Father and His only begotten Son and His Holy Spirit are One and the Same. Therefore, when Adam was talking to God in the Garden of Eden, he was actually talking to Christ Jesus. How this can be, I do not know. For it has not been revealed to me, but I do know that it is indeed true because He Himself has personally told me so.
@Pasquella: There is absolutely not a doubt in my mind that you are one of the most sincere people I have ever had the privilege to meet. I also do not have a doubt in my mind that you have a wonderful relationship with your partner, and this is what makes it so hard. For it is just as wrong for you to be in love with her in that way as it would be if she was a married man with three small children at home. As in regards to Scripture, Romans 1:18-32, 1 Corinthians 6:9-11 and 1 Timothy 1:8-11 are very clear that homosexuality (even that which is practiced as purely as you do) is a sin that needs to be repented of, and arguing that those passages were written by the Apostle Paul is a moot point. For ALL Scripture came from our Heavenly Father to serve as written confirmation of what He wants to personally reveal to us. Please, I beg of you, keep listening for His voice. For our Heavenly Father is the only One who can convince you of what the truth is.-
@FH: The trinity is not actually mentioned in the Bible, but is a concept borrowed (and overused) from the Romans and their religion. What Christ means about seeing the father when seeing him not seeing father when not seeing him is that the Father has given him authority over man and now only communicates through him and the Spirit, but Christ's personality is distinctly different from the Father's, and the Holy Spirit is different as well.
@Galatians: Further, it is worthy of noting that each one of the Epistles was written for a very particular group of people, and the Galatians were a lawless, anti-authority, rootin-tootin group of Celtic hooligans who loved to party and fight BUT had a very strong internal sense of honor, lovingkindness and fightsiness, sort of like the Irish in John Waynes classic film "The Quiet Man," which is why it makes sense that Paul focuses on the liberty aspect. By comparison, the Romans were, well, Romans, and Corinth was the Las Vegas, Nevada of the Apostolic age, hence their focus on sin and fear in First Corinthians and the emphasis on boasting and humility and shame in Second Cornithians. There is a certain measure of exaggeration in all of the epistles, and Galatians is no different in this regard, which is why you should not take them overly literally but read them more as a particular set of heavy letters written to a particular group of people. Pasquella, I appreciate what you're doing, but if you want anyone who is serious about this to believe you, you will have to explain why homosexuality is cultural rather then spiritual in nature. Otherwise, I really don't see why you're making the film as you'll only reach your choir.
Basically, to summarize:
Romans Washington, DC (Epistle to the Beltway Boys)
Corinthians Las Vegas (Epistles to the cast of Guys and Dolls)
Galatians Somewhere in Alabama (Epistle to the Rednecks)
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@Jeremy: So there are three witnesses in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Spirit, and these three are One; and there are three witnesses on the earth, the Spirit, the water and the blood; and these three agree--are in unison, their testimony coincides. {1 John 5:8 AMP} Also: fishhawkdroppings.blogspot.com/2009/10/bittersweet-refinements-chapter-iii....
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So they form a corporate?
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Try to contact Sir Elton John. It will become very interesting documentary involving a celebrity..but first visit him since I have heard the news that he got E.Coli bacterial infection. -
Throughout my book and blog, I reiterated many of the debates regarding homosexuality being included as the Old Law, which Christians are not bound by any longer. There are many people who feel differently, which is ok, however, I refuse to debate with other Christians regarding this any longer. I have written every single thought about this in my archives and my book and referenced to every single term regarding homosexuality and why it is only viewed as promiscuity and rape, A fellow blogger, Nick had made this statement on a past blog post:
“The passage in the ancient Hebrew is clearly talking about male-male sex acts, specifically anal sex. The issue was penetrating an anus with a penis, this making the penis literally “unclean” to the point of forbidding entry into a vagina.”
With all the different interpretations and meanings of the Bible, I have come to acceptance with everybody’s take on anything. It doesn’t mean that I will necessarily agree with it, however everyone is entitled to their own views and beliefs. Why debate anything, while the beliefs that we hold true to our hearts are not relevant to scientific facts? Back in 2003, I thought a bit differently and tackled through debates and basically was “brainwashed” in my church into thinking, “Your belief is knowledge - spread the word and make it knowledge for all.” I refuse to brainwash people. I prefer to share, if they’re willing to listen. That’s all we can do.
As time grew on, I decided to venture into the teachings of other religions to broaden my horizons. I’ve learned so much through the teachings of Buddhism, Taoism, Islam as well as Judaism, (which is the base of Christianity). I’ve used messages taught in all of those religions to enhance my life and yet, still be faithful in my belief that Jesus is the only way into heaven. And I will not argue if you disagree with that. It’s simply: OK... I respect your belief.
Christians are supposed to edify and lift up our spirits - not tear us down with threatening and belittling words in order to “save us”. Jesus spent time with many people who were against the grain of Christianity. So for me or anyone else who claims to be a Christian to judge you in your faith in whoever, whatever, is contradictory to what Jesus did when He was here 2,000 years ago.
When you say "the truth"---it may be interpreted in a whole different way. Corinthians and Romans speak about the promiscuity ---the sexual aspects of homosexuality as well as heterosexuality. This is how many people view it, and then you have others who disagree. That's fine. This thread was not about debating whether or not homosexuality is a sin, it was about the documentary that I am making of how many gays and lesbians still do have faith in whatever religion they practice. In my heart, and through my relationships with Jesus, there is not one human being that can convince me that loving someone else of the same gender is wrong.
There are Christians that are so focused on homosexuals, that their relationship with God has been completely diminished. They’ll even go so far as hold picket signs outside of gay soldiers’ funerals with antigay semantics. “God hates fags!” How can another Christian even say this kind of stuff? It baffles me. I know those are extreme cases, but that’s where it sometimes ends up when pressed upon the issue. Religion has ruined many relationships, friendships and unions. It destroys every foundation of love, if allowed. For instance, someone once told me that they’d be my friend if I wasn’t a lesbian. They also said in the next sentence that they would be my friend if I didn’t claim Jesus as my Savior, and yet still practice homosexuality. They’d rather me be a “Pagan lesbian”, rather than a Christian lesbian. It’s known that anyone who turns another believer away from God is committing one of the worst sins of all. If you guide someone to God, be confident that God can handle the convictions of a broken heart, or someone who really needs help. We all need help. We’re all in this together.
What does it mean to be religious? To me, it means rules and regulations. It means structure and no excitement for our Lord our Savior with no “spirit”. When I used to attend the Catholic Church, they were so ‘monotone’, without any enthusiasm. Everyone had a grim look on their face and treated mass as if it were the most boring class in school. No one was dancing, praising God, singing or crying out of pure happiness. People were praying along as if they were sleepwalking. I couldn’t bear it any longer. Is this the way we’re supposed to worship our great Lord? I know each and every individual is different, but this was ridiculous. The nun who had been there for 30 something years would look at me if I coughed too much. She’d snear at me and remind me that silence was apart of their prayer time. She didn’t care if I was suffering or offered me a glass of water. When I was a child going to CCD classes, the nun would smack my hand with a ruler because I had raised my hand to go to the bathroom. It was barbaric and abusive. This isn’t what spirituality’s about. This is definitely what “religion’s” about. I didn’t want any part of it anymore. I wanted out. I wanted to worship God the way I felt fit- the way God wanted me to talk to Him.
Here are the differences I see between spirituality and religion: spirituality has no set time for prayer. You make the time to pray and it’s up to you to decide whether or not you want to develop a closer relationship with God. God gave us “choice”, and we have that right to make certain decisions. We seek a relationship with God, not specific rules, times and set schedules to pray or think about God. Remember, God is everywhere. We can pray at any time and at any place. God hears us all the time. He hears our thoughts. It’s building a foundation of love between you and your creator. If you have no foundation, the relationship with crumble due to poor building structure. God doesn’t want us to kill others over different beliefs in religions. Again, He has given us freedom of choice, which means anyone can do or believe anything they want. We cannot force people or belittle them, just because they believe something totally different. We can share our beliefs in God with others, but we cannot force it upon them. Jesus never forced it---He shared it. He displayed His loving nature to all people, even the ones who were thought to be immoral and not fit for the Kingdom of Heaven. He never discriminated and always showed His love for all. We’re supposed to be “Christ-like”, which means, trying to live the way Jesus did back then. He was tolerant, loving and accepting of those who truly were seeking the word of God. Most “Christians” and other religious people will argue over that concept and tell you that God is not tolerant. They’ll even tell you that God hates a lot of people. God does not hate. God is all love.
I’m not preaching some kumbaya sermon here, because I know in my heart that this is the message that God wants me to tell people. God is powerful enough to save you- even if you life looks like a complete mess to others. If you believe in your heart (as a Christian) and confess with your mouth that you love God and believe that Jesus died for your sins, you are saved. Right there, there is nothing that can separate you and God.
The next time you encounter one of these “religious” people condemning anyone, just remember that each and every single person living on this earth has their own cross to bear. They’ll all have to answer to the big guy. What will they say when God asks, “Have you displayed love and tolerance to your fellow brothers and sisters? Have you shown them compassion and acceptance? Have you shared your faith with them in a loving way? Have you treated them the way you would want to be treated?” What do you think their answers will be? The behaviors that most religious people display are characteristics of hateful and insecure people.
Think about it. If a person who is insecure about their sexuality, focuses purely on homosexuality—don’t you think that there may be some deep seeded issues there? Ex-gays and other ‘reborn religious antigay Christians’ usually act like reformed smokers. They purely focus on the sins of people and not their relationship with God.
Spirituality is the focus between you and God. It’s the continued learning process that never ends. Religious people limit their intake of learning and only hear what they want to hear. When you’re spiritual, you have to exercise it just as you would exercise a muscle in your body. If you slack off, your muscle becomes weak and flabby. The same goes with your spirit, however, there’s always another chance to get back into spiritual and physical fitness.
“Physical exercise has some value, but spiritual exercise is much more important.” ~1 Timothy 4:8
When you stop learning and stop exercising your growth is spirituality, you become spiritually unaware and more focused on worldly matters. When we delve deeper into worldly matters, we also become spiritually deaf. The messages from God start to fade; not because He’s not talking to you, but you’re literally choosing not to hear Him. I try to become more open and in tune to the messages that are trying to reach me. It’s up to me to relax, meditate and receive them. Sometimes it’s not that easy. The messages come in different ways. There are days where I just sit and talk to God like a child. I talk to Him as if He were sitting right next to me. With religion, the teachings focus on saying the same prayer over and over again.
“And now about prayer. When you pray, don’t be like the hypocrites who love to pray publicly on street corners and in the synagogues where everyone can see them. I assure you, that is all the reward they will ever get. But when you pray, go away by yourself, shut the door behind you, and pray to your Father secretly. Then your Father, who knows all secrets, will reward you. When you pray, don’t babble on and on as people of other religions do. They think their prayers are answered only by repeating their words again and again. Don’t be like them, because your Father knows exactly what you need even before you ask him!” ~Matthew 6:5-8
This passage reminds me everyday of how God wants us to come to Him with prayers from the heart. Our “religion” has literally brainwashed us into thinking that we have to pray this way or that way, when in fact, we need to do it our way so we can communicate with God more productively.
The whole term, “WWJD” (What Would Jesus Do) seems to be so outdated these days. -
Well, I see that Pasquella is reading only what she wants to see that confirms what she wants to do and how she wants others to view what she's doing.
I see that her position that she's preaching here is that Jesus is the only way into Heaven, but that also there's no discrimination. Jesus clearly said that when certain souls knock he will tell them that he never knew them. He will discriminate. He did discriminate. He was given his disciples. They were chosen with discrimination. Jesus was and is the most discriminating mind I've ever met. That is completely consistent with his statement asking that the ignorant be forgiven. It does not mean that those ignorant enter in.
God doesn't force Heaven or Hell. Satan does that. Satan's goats can't hear Jesus.
Also, Jesus cleans the temple, and he called them "serpents." Jesus hated. He said so.
To understand the language of the revelation of Jesus Christ one must understand love/hate relationships. One must understand relativity. Semantical understanding is required. Understanding paradoxes is required.
Pasquella said, "If you believe in your heart (as a Christian) and confess with your mouth that you love God and believe that Jesus died for your sins, you are saved."
"Christian" must be defined, and Jesus did that. Everyone who mouths and merely thinks he or she has done what Pasquella's suggests has not necessarily arrived at salvation. She's mistaken and misleading. It is one of the Big Lies. Repeat it often enough, and supposedly the masses will be duped. Are you duped?
There are many who will believe that they believed in their hearts as Christians and who confessed with their mouths that they loved God and believed that Jesus died for their sins who will not enter in.
Pasquella has issues with Roman Catholicism. She is conflating all of "the religious" with her experience at the hands of certain Roman Catholics. Despite Pasquella's assertions, Christianity remains religion.
Pasquella cites Paul as authoritative, but Paul's letters show a founding of highly structured churches with denominated hierarchies and many rules, which Paul called his commandments to the congregations and leaders against which Pasquella argues, blanketly so. Would Pasquella have fit in, or would Paul have written a letter about how she is a problem for the body had she attempted to remain and to sway others into accepting homosexuality as not being a sin?
By the way, has Pasquella said here whether or not homosexuality is a sin? If she holds that it is, then how does she hold that you ought to accept it and not change? Does she sound like Jesus or someone else?
She won't be pinned down (give firm opinions and precise information), but avoidance speaks volumes. It actually does pin her down whether she likes it or not.
Also, her words do show that she does believe that it is sin even while she also in, other places, speaks as if it is not.
There is logic in Heaven.
Nearly anyone may write a letter to the churches. Which letters signify in Heaven?
I leave my peace with those who accept it. Concerning those who do not, I shake my feet. This is what Jesus said. -
I like both sexes but have experienced animosity from men when it comes to liking women. Many people would say it is because they think I'm attractive themselves which spawns a competitive nature. It's a hard lifestyle to live but you can love who you want & still love God also. Gays are still human. -
Tom,
Where in the Bible does Jesus discriminate?
What about this story?
“Jesus Anointed by a Sinful Woman”
"One of the Pharisees asked Jesus to come to his home for a meal, so Jesus accepted the invitation and sat down to eat. A certain immoral woman heard he was there and brought a beautiful jar filled with expensive perfume. Then she knelt behind him at his feet, weeping. Her tears fell on his feet, and she wiped them off with her hair. Then she kept kissing his feet and putting perfume on them. When the Pharisee who was the host saw what was happening and who the woman was, he said to himself, “This proves that Jesus is no prophet. If God had really sent him, he would know what kind of woman is touching him. She’s a sinner!” Then Jesus spoke up and answered his thoughts. “Simon,” he said to the Pharisee, “I have something to say to you.” “All right. Teacher,” Simon replied, “go ahead.” Then Jesus told him this story: “A man loaned money to two people—five hundred pieces of silver to one and fifty pieces to the other. But neither of them could repay him, so he kindly forgave them both, canceling their debts. Who do you suppose loved him more after that?” Simon answered, “I suppose the one for whom he canceled the larger debt.” “That’s right,” Jesus said. Then he turned to the woman and said to Simon, “Look at this woman kneeling here. When I entered your home, you didn’t offer me water to wash the dust from my feet, but she has washed them with her tears and wiped them with her hair. You didn’t give me a kiss of greeting, but she has kissed my feet again and again from the time I first came in. You neglected the courtesy of olive oil to anoint my head, but she has anointed my feet with rare perfume. I tell you, her sins—and they are many—have been forgiven, so she has shown me much love. But a person who is forgiven little shows only little love. Then Jesus said to the woman, “Your sins are forgiven.” The men at the table said among themselves, “Who does this man think he is, going around forgiving sins?” And Jesus said to the woman, “Your faith has saved you; go in peace." ~Luke 7:36-50
Your actions don’t mean anything if you don’t have faith. This woman displayed faith to Jesus, whereas the Pharisee didn’t. She was forgiven, in despite her sins.
Christianity is much more than just obeying the law. It’s having faith and love for Jesus. It’s loving one another and accepting each other ‘as is’---to not judge and ridicule for what you may think is wrong. God’s job is to judge. People are trying to fill God’s shoes. That’s quite a task to take on. They live such stressful and hard lives.
“All of you should be of one mind, full of sympathy toward each other, loving one another with tender hearts and humble minds. Don’t repay evil for evil. Don’t retaliate when people say unkind things about you. Instead, pay them back with a blessing. That is what God wants you to do, and he will bless you for it.
For the Scripture say,
If you want a happy life and good days, keep your tongue from speaking evil, and keep your lips from telling lies. Turn away from evil and do good. Work hard at living in peace with others. The eyes of the Lord watch over those who do right, and his ears are open to their prayers. But the Lord turns his face against those who do evil.” ~1 Peter 3:8-12
The "Jesus" you worship sounds like a very impatient, intolerant and unloving "savior". I think I'll worship the Jesus that I know and love ---the one I have a personal relationship with. Jesus does turn away from those who do evil and those who turn against God, but not people who worship and put God first in their lives. Again, save the judgments for God---those are big shoes to fill.
And no---homosexuality is NOT a sin if two people of the same gender love one another. The act of premarital sex is a sin, yes...for heterosexuals AND homosexuals. Being promiscuous is a sin - and that's exactly what the Bible is condemning ---the act of careless sex.
So no, I am not sinning by loving my wife, and partner of 14 years. My marriage was blessed by God--the Trinity through a Christian minister on the beaches of Provincetown, MA last October.
Peace!
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