Discussions
God
Posted by nikkis09 • 10/24/09 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: God, religion
Okay, I don't want this thread to turn into a huge mess... just tell me...
Do you believe in God? Do you believe in the trinity (father, son, and holy spirit)? Why or why not?
User Comments
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Search through the discussions & go over the hundreds of other times this has been posted.-
Why does everyone poo poo whenever this comes up. Most people do not read all the old discussions on the issue. If you don't have anything to contribute - just don't say anything. I don't mind when people add this comment to thier thoughts - but to just say "go read old discussions" is actually kind of rude.
By the way I believe
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Hmm... Go read old discussions... I don't like that idea. Quite boring if you ask me. I agree with barry... if you have nothing to say about the thread, then just don't post.
I believe in the trinity. I was asking because I know some people that just believe in God or just believe in Jesus. I want to know what everyone thinks and why. I was raised christian and that is why I believe what I do. I also have seen God working my my life, and in the lives of others around me. -
Nikkis09, you say you were raised Christian and that is why you believe what you do. Makes sense. What also makes sense is that had you of been raised a Buddhist in China for example, you would believe in that. So, how were are raised only goes to show we are conditioned to believe what we believe. This does not contribute to adding value of verity to the claim of a gods existence. It does suggest we are relatively brainwashed by our environment. -
Ah, but I DID have something to say & I've already said it repeatedly. If you don't want to go look it up, it's not MY fault.
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@LGramlich
If you already said "something" and are sick of repeating, then just don't post! Simple as that. -
Brainwashed... well, being raised Christian was only one of my reasons for my beliefs.
But hey, just reading the bible is a big influence, no matter what religion you are. -
boring
who cares -
I always wonder why a friend of mine a muslim always says "Jesus be with me" it all tells me there is a super power behind. And why is it that he quotes the bible more often and have never mentioned the kolan?
Because the BIBLE is word of inspiration from God directly. The only way to communicate with HIM, without passing through a go between. The only book in the world that changes people for better.
We were all created to be of God according to the bible. That is why the gospel must be spread to reach to the world and the ignorant. To let them know that God is all powerful and can change the unchangeable. Am from Kenya, the spiritual body called "Mungiki Sect" will surprisingly be smatched by an all powerful spiritual body beyond the sect. That is the God's spirit. It is now happening that the Biggest mungiki leader is now saved and surprisingly, all his followers will eventually get saved and turn to God. That is all that matters to change the world. An omnipotent power beyond all other powers (GOD's power).
The ones who say are bored is because they lead their own lives, while the don't belong to them. so they careless about God being their control. The moment of losing these bodies is one (a flashing second) and are left with nothing.
If i were you i would take the bible and read to proof me wrong. It will be my happiness because that will be the beginning of change for better. The only guaranteed!
Am not surprised though that even those born out of Christianity finally run to Christianity. It is because it is the only freedom one can ever have!
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I have to agree with Barry on this one. I am sure that many of us have posted some things that were discussed once before. For me, if I have taken part in a similar discussion, I'll bypass it.
I do believe in God. I believe Jesus is the way and I believe in the trinity.
The thing is: I respect everyone of every religion. Some Christians don't.-
Wow people actually agree with me
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I don't believe in a god. I think god is a man made concept conceptualized to fill in unknowns. A "god of the gaps," if you will.
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Ah, The God of the Gaps. The lost Tolkien masterpiece. -
That's a pretty standard atheist response to the religious. -
Do you believe in alien life? -
I think the odds of there being life on other planets is good.
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Is it in order to assume that your answer is "yes" to the existence of alien life form?
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I think it is likely that their are alien life forms, but I do not claim to "know" that there are.
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Everything not of this earth is alien, do you agree?
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It is relative. To the lifeforms on other planets, we would be considered the aliens.
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By every definition of the word, God is alien, i.e, He is not of this earth. Do you agree?
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No, because as of now, god is just a man made concept. And it seems that everyone defines their concept of god differently. Pantheists for example use the term "god" synonymous with "nature."
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I have hope there is a REASON for existence. And the reason is GOOD. Any attempt toward understanding beyond this is beyond me.
Most whose belief gets into details as to what "God" means or how such is defined is primarily influenced by the culture one grows up in. If I were born in Ireland there is a good chance Catholicism would be the underlying faith I would accept or reject. If I were born in Israel it would probably be a branch of Judaism. And on to Islam and so forth.
Our beliefs are like our languages and our accents. Something our culture implants in us as we are born and raised. Whether we stick to it or reject it is up to the individual and his/her circumstance.
I have no problem with that. If it works for you it works for you.
My only problem is with those who feel the necessity to impose THEIR cultural beliefs onto me. We each have our own to deal with. That is sufficient. I have HOPE. I treasure GOOD. Enough for me.-
Why do you hope for reason and purpose of existence?
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Because I AM. Therefore YOU are. I prefer to be rather than not to be. Without curiosity there is no WHY?
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huh?
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@Rivy, original comment, culture and nurture:
I've kind of an odd perspective on that because nearly every member of my family had a different belief in God. My maternal grandma is an Evangelical, my paternal grandparents are traditional, Lutheran type protestants, my mother is a Deist and my father is a Jeffersonian non-Bible following Christian. It is true that we are entirely products of our experiences. However, you will find that many people have been touched by the experiences in their lives and that Christianity continues to expand its borders even today, as does Islam, and not just among believers in other related faiths. Atheists, too, are still being converted and still finding God. It seems that there may be another Father in this picture... -
JJ, Do you think conversion is desirable? -
@CT: Jolly jee gosh, I don't see why not!
(But you know CT, the answer to that question in no way, shape, or form affects what I just said. It's all about your attitude!) -
Why my attitude? Why not yours?
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Did you just get absolutely none of the humor in that sarcastic post CT?
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it best it looked like a sick joke
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This subthread is a discussion about what is happening, not whether it is desirable.
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What do you think is happening?
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EDITED: Reread my post. Okay I suppose that's not exactly what it's about - I'm kind of fun-loving and forgot. What it's about is how religion actually is, rather then our subjective impressions and judgements of it.
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(withdrawn after JJ's edit)
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Excellent!!!!!!!!!! -
Exactly rivy....and I'm not even 70 sumthin
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No. Why? A very good, and thoroughly unanswerable question.
I in fact read the bible a few nights ago - the story of the woman who touches Jesus and Jesus feels the power leave him. That sort of story is just odd. It just paints Jesus as a really self-obsessed person. In fact, the whole of the New Testiment does that.
But that's Jesus. Does God exist? Still no. I don't see why things couldn't have "just happened". I mean, why not? Because it's beyond our understanding? That's a rubbish excuse.-
Here's something to consider: the guys who were discipled by Jesus, the only reward they gained is the one atheists claim didn't happen. This for extreme suffering, poverty, hardship, travel in an age when few did - in directions that were potentially deadly, torture, and eventually being destroyed by authorities, cast out by friends and family and society as a whole. Their sacrifice, the years of torment even more then the final acts against them, speaks volumes about their credibility and this story, the Gospel, that they spread, that they experienced, that was in their lives.
As for "self-obsessed," He was not. He was, however, a true individual, someone who really understood who he was and what he was here to do, and saw all those around him as individuals, needy and lovable individuals, needing him. -
OK. You say what they say must be true because of their actions and their resolve. That's a good point, and I'm not suggesting that THEY didn't believe what they said with every fibre of their being, I just think they were a little miss-guided.
I just think that a belief in God takes away from the incredible nature of Humans. Look at all we've achieved in such a (relatively) short space of time.
Right now, I'm talking to you, someone I've never met, someone I'm unlikely to ever meet, through a website called BC using an invention called the internet. A hundred years ago I'd have been lucky to have a telephone.
Humans are amazing in our own right. I don't see that we need an all-powerful God to justify ourselves. -
@iratedog: You are right in saying that human beings are incredible, so incredible that someone infinite, ineffable, and beyond imagination not only wants you in His presence, but will be quite pissed if His invitation is turned down. Indeed, so incredible that God has even sacrificed of Himself for our mortal welfare.
The thing about these particular folks with resolve though, is that 1) they genuinely believe in honesty (a very important part of both Jewish and Christian traditions, hence the almost over-blunt manner of speaking even between Man and God, and often very negative portrayals of "politeness," especially parable of the talents in Matthew 24) 2) were willing to do anything for what they believed, demonstrating this over and over again, and 3) many of them had personally known Jesus and claimed to have seen his resurrection.
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No and no.
Some people say there must be a god because humans have not yet figured out the whole universe and how it came to exist, so a God must have done it. I've never understood why my or anyone else's ignorance is proof (or disproof for that matter) of a god. It's just proof of our ignorance in those matters. So, rather than wasting our time on a mythical, mystical deity, why don't we spend that time trying to find the real answers. We won't accomplish complete success in that because the universe is too vast and complex, but that doesn't mean we shouldn't try to understand as much of it as we can.
By the way, considering that the human brain contains, by a many orders of magnitude, insufficient neurons and synapses to come anywhere close to understanding absolutely everything in the universe, including all of the phenomena that occur and how everything came to be, if I ever did know everything about everything in the universe then I would start to believe in a god because only a deity could give me that understanding considering the limited physical capacity of even the greatest of human brains. (And mine is nowhere close to the greatest of human brains.) But until then, label me an atheist.
Another reason some people give for the need for a god is that, according to them, nothing can exist without something causing it to exist, so a god must exist to have created the universe. But that's a self-defeating argument because, as difficult (and probably impossible because of the finite number of neurons and synapses in our brains) as it is for us to figure out exactly how the universe and everything in it could have come into existence out of nothing, it is that much more difficult to explain how an omnipotent, omniscient, omnipresent deity capable of creating a universe and all of the creatures in it could possibly come into existence out of nothing. If nothing can come into existence without a cause, then that argument has to apply to God as well. So, if you accept the "nothing can come into existence without something to cause it" argument, that makes it impossible for God to exist too.-
The evidence of our limited thinking is the fact that most of us wonder how the universe, which is zillions of years older than us, got created, even before we ever wonder how our parents came into being
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Most religious philosophers respond to your last paragraph with the idea of a "primary cause". However, not all people are able to communicate sophisticated philosophical concepts; this does not mean that they have no answer.
Interestingly, so many non-religious people give conditions for when/how they would believe in God (as you said, you'd only believe in God if God made you personally understand everything about everything in the universe). That actually argues against the idea that the religious have made God in our own image. If God revealed himself to you in exactly the conditions you describe, that would certainly be proof that you made him in your image.
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Personally, no.
At least not in the sense in which religious institutions portray the idea given to that word.
Some people believe in a god that is made out to be some sort of human with super powers and understanding. Some believe in a pantheistic god, which to be honest sounds more likely, but given the lack of fear and incentive to ‘believe’, that philosophical idea goes out the window for most religions. That version of a God is as far as I’m willing to believe in. Beyond that I just think God is a name, in reality it means nothing, it’s just a name given to trying to understand our origins and nature. So nope, no God. -
I believe in a power greater than myself. What that power is and which form it takes is beyond me. -
I do beleive in God! its clear in my eyes..no God,no us and the whole world.He is the creator. -
Yes, because Jesus rose from the dead proving that he is God, and if you Google search the May 15th Prophecy you will see with 100% accuracy when he will return-
all hail the all mighty Google.
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morgantj: Do you imagine it's a coincidence that God and Google both start with "Go"? I think not.
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JoelKlebanoff, You are right. I have full faith in Google. Just look at this evidence - www.thechurchofgoogle.org/Scripture/Proof_Google_Is_God.html
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morgantj: Thanks for the link. I believe! I shall henceforth worship at the alter of the Great God, Google and I shall have no gods before Google. Although, if Google demands that I get another circumcision, I'll immediately drop It as my God and return to atheism.
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LOL!
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Ummm duhhh
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Yes. Maybe. I'm not sure. -
Not really. Criss Angel can do everything jesus did-
you got the youtube clip? -
I don't believe that one bit.
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www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7gl8nNsDMA
www.youtube.com/watch?v=sBQLq2VmZcA
www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3f-WPrKnRU
Jesus was an old time magician, and he saw an opportunity to form a cult. So he made some stuff up (like Scientology) and here we are.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=aOYvxw-5W10 -
how about raising someone from the dead?
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Who did Jesus raise from the dead? Zombies! Yah!
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Yea, this is what I was tought and it is what I believe. -
I don't really care if God exists or not. It's not something I think about. -
I believe in God, Christ and Holy Spirit, and I believe in the Bible as the story of God and Man.
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Why does it matter so much to us what others believe? Why do we feel the need to be validated in what we believe? A million fools believing the same thing is still a million fools. A million wise men that disagree will still be a million wise men. the path to understanding God is a personal experience that every other human being will at some point disagree with you on. Regardless of belief ultimate truth exists and those that seek the truth will find it.-
"Why does it matter so much to us what others believe?"
Mostly because it's fun.
FYI: If your journey with God was supposed to be completely personal, there would be no Bible, no Church, and no need for others in your life. -
"mostly because its fun"
right and that's why we see christians argue so much about what they believe... because its fun! -
don't get me wrong... My life is unconditionally committed to God, I believe in the Holy Spirit and in Jesus Christ. But I unconditionally refuse to encapsulate my beliefs in someone else's doctrines. I may happen to agree on points, but I have learned from experience. Validation from my peers is about as valuable as collecting rabbit turds and calling them count-chockula. Most of them turn out to be about as bright as Job's friends. Half the time the best they can do is a verbatim quote from the last religious book they read.
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I actually agree with you about not restricting your beliefs and always being reasonably open-minded and ready to explore, but having a community of faith is necessary to really grow as a Christian and you won't understand everything, you see "through a glass darkly" (somewhere in 1 Corinthians 13, NIV) as Saint Paul put it, so you do need the scriptures of the Ancients to challenge your follys, pride, and set ways just as I do.
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I agree completely...unfortunately the four walls we often hide ourselves behind and call "churches" are just buildings, and they rarely provide the community and iron sharpening iron type discussions... I generally have better fellowship with my community of believers online... sad I know.. but true just the same...JJ dude.. you are in my church... like it or not
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That's true. But a really good church (with building) can add to it and should be sought or made.
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Yep I agree...
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Why does it matter? Because these differences in beliefs cause wars, conflicts, bombings, albinos arms getting cut off, etc... So one has to prepare oneself for others beliefs. It is a safety measure. Not to mention, either a god exist or doesn't, asking the question is an act of pursuing the truth and reality. There is nothing wrong with that.
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@morgan: No, the disrespect of human beings causes those wars, and always will, with or without religious organization. Whether it's Mammon and natural resources or moral superiority and judgemental ways, we will always find a reason to fight as long as we hate each other and ourselves, and no amount of giving up what is beautiful about life, including belief, service, sacrifice, honor, romance or anything else that we cherish and hold dear in the heart, is going to quiet our wrath - it will only become more superficial and abominable.
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religious beliefs hasn't helped with this challenge, it has only made it worse.
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@morgantj: What about Reverend Martin Luther King Jr? And his followers? Or the great United Methodist Abolitionists? Or Saint Thomas Aquinas? Or Susan B. Anthony? Or first Supreme Court justice John Jay? Or Mother Teresa?
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Jason and JJ, I'm really liking your responses!
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I follow what's what. People tend to think religion will generally break down in to truth. I don't think we can gain truth when no one is intereted in hearing it. Still, I'm Catholic. It's more like a 'title' to me, seeing how I tend to be one of the worst examples of it.-
Ok, I hear it and dumbly accept it.
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Well he did say he was one of the worse examples.
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The Church is about community and action and bringing people in to your life; you have the Bible to explore, challenge, debate, and "see through a glass darkly" to find truth. It's a very involved process CT, and one that is as far from "dumbly accepting" as you could imagine.
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Thats why people around the world have to be threatened, bribed, tormented, shot, oppressed and force to accept the bible
It is so open that the oppressors have no idea of other religions' views and cares only about increasing their own numbers
They use young minds as pawns in furthering their goals of garnering unquestioning believers to do the dirty work today and tomorrow -
@cT: The oppression of the sort you are speaking of is a tiny portion of Christian history in a handful of places, mostly in the Balkans, Russia, Holy Land and New World. Far more oppression has occurred against the church then for it, and far more possession has been given up then bribed about. The vast majority of the growth of Christianity, in fact, has been borne out of oppression by the other side.
And for "dirty work," I suppose you mean my friends who are tutoring young children in the Inner City, volunteering at food banks, building houses for the homeless and helping build people up on the personal level who have been completely torn down in every possible way. Indeed, dirty work, the kind that few others want to do. -
yea! what he said! *points @JeremyJansen
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I will cut it short here
Most of these arguments become you vs me pretty quickly.. it's because you can't really speak on behalf of your entire religion. On one hand you will try to tell me what they told you when you were little and trusting. On the other hand I will be trying to tell you the history I have studied in my books. There is no end to the session, it cannot conclude sanely -
@CT: I wasn't really a Christian until 11th Grade. And yes, I've studied my history. Now if you want to debate me on particular points that's fine, but these arguments become you vs. me because you make such blatant generalizations against me and for no other reason.
Resort to Ethnos, receive Ethnos. -
When will it occur to you that you may be appearing to be blatant to others in the first place?
And if history is quoted it shouldn't make you shiver like that -
I'm not complaining. Now let's have a real discussion and talk about where I'm being blatant.
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I disagree... I don't really need to defend Christianity.. that was my point above...I am completely OK with you disagreeing. And I do not think worse of you honestly. I would rather you be true to yourself first. If you are seeking truth.. and I am seeking truth.. we will eventually find it and will both be in a different place than we are now. My "what he said" comment was mostly in fun because he had a valid point. I am not vs. anybody. I am fairly well known for being critical of christian behavior and being a christian myself- it doesn't make me a popular person by a long shot with other christians
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Ok my mistake. This thread is anyway meant to be a place for Christians.. If I had not entered, I wouldn't have seen the posts that could appear blatant to any outsider
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On second thoughts it isn't my mistake. The title certainly said 'God' .. not jesus or anything hinting towards christianity. Why should I assume this equation?
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@CT: It's not about that CT, it's about God and faith, and yes, it's good to ask questions, and I will answer them for you.
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CT, just to be clear, the question in this blog thread was about God and the trinity (God, Jesus, Holy Spirit), so it was, in fact, a question about the Christian God.
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Someone asked me about blatancy and this was my answer to it: the natural assumption of the OP that god = christianity. Now you know why I was "blatant" to you (if I was)
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@CT: You can take it as you want, no one will care!
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Not in any of the senses the word "God" is generally used. I'm open to the possibility of some kind of higher power or higher truth far beyond our comprehension. But, the idea of an omnipotent, omniscient parental figure who will reward good and punish evil seems to me to be simply the desire for the kind of security we all felt as infants, before we realized that our parents were as fallible as we are...-
"But, the idea of an omnipotent, omniscient parental figure who will reward good and punish evil"
Interestingly, that's not exactly what Christ is saying, though he does suggest that the more wicked you are the harder it is to come in to the light. I'd suggest you look in to it further yourself, starting with the Torah and then following with the Gospel, they're good reads and important parts of American culture in any case, but while the Father certainly is an omnipotent, omniscent being, and Heaven and Hell is a tad bit more complicated then the simplistic "He sees you when you're simply/He knows when you're awake/He knows when you've been bad or good so be good for goodness sakes!" -
JeremyJansen aside from you being a redneck I am really starting to like the way you think! I would like to hear your perspective on some of these things... you might want to check out internetmonk.com I don't promise that you will like it.. but there is some great conversation over there that may pique your interest. If you really want some reading whitehorseinn is good too
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Interesting points,jeremyjanson, but they have little to do with mine.
Yeah, I've read much of the Bible, and, as a literary scholar I'm very much aware of its historical and cultural importance, just as I'm aware of the historical and cultural importance of lots of other beliefs. But that has nothing to do with whether what's in them is true, and nothing to do with what I'm saying.
I'm also aware there are more sophisticated readings of the Bible, lots of them, in fact. Some, for instance, go so far as to see God, Heaven, Hell, etc. as metaphorical, and argue that Jesus was simply a moral philosopher (which, actually you're statement that "he does suggest that the more wicked you are the harder it is to come in to the light" fits in with nicely). And, as I'm implied, I'm open to seeing God as a metaphor, but that's certainly not the view of the vast majority of Christians (or believers in other theistic systems) which, I would argue is far closer to the the Santa Claus song (similar to the simplistic way people throw the word "karma" around). -
drjay,
in some ways God can only be a metaphor to us... but that doesn't mean that he doesn't exist... we use metaphors to explain things that we have trouble understanding... and from that perspective even the bible teaches that we absolutely do not understand God.
Accepting God as a metaphor is fine, but at some point you have to decide if you are going to accept some things even though you can't understand them or will you throw the baby out with the bath water. -
"Interesting points,jeremyjanson, but they have little to do with mine."
I wouldn't say that. You're complaining about a particular portrayal of God, much as I have recently. -
Jasonthebaldguy...I accept that there are lots of things I don't understand--and if, to you, that means I believe in "God," that's fine, but I have no problem throwing out the "bathwater" of literal belief in any religion.
jeremyjanson...if the shoe doesn't fit (i.e. if you don't hold the particular kind of belief I was referring to) don't wear it. -
But does it actually not fit or was that just the particular school of thought you were instructed in? There are so many different schools of thought about what Christianity says, from Calvinism to Lutheranism to Catholicism to Mormonism to the Seventh Day Adventists and the Orthodox and Coptics and Theistic Humanists, maybe you should look in to ways you didn't originally see it? All of them have their valid points I believe.
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Yes, God is all powerful, wise and present. The Joy of Jesus is our salvation. If some one is not clear on this matter, let time have its way.-
or talk to them.
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I'm with u jason... I believe in what I believe. I'm not saying what others believe in is wrong,because my faith tells me I am NOT one to judge,and I thank the lord for that.
I do however feel a sadness in my heart for atheist and agnostics because they will never feel the kind of unconditional love that you and I share from our father,and it truly is a peace that no other kind of feeling or emotion can give you.-
That reminds me of a drug addict feeling sorry for those that don't take drugs because they will never feel the "high."
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morgan, are you crazy? stop stalking
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Your name is "CRAZYTsu," not me. LOL. But I suppose your ad hominem is one way to avoid addressing the substance of my point.
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But I do... I am not contradicting you, right?
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You are not addressing my point at all. It appears to you don't even see the connection.
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I am addressing it in my own way of not debating your point. Now, I am thinking why are YOU so unsure of your point?
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So you admit you are avoiding even addressing my point and are using misdirection techniques, It is reasonable to conclude you do so because you are unable to provide a coherent defense. Also, I've expressed no doubt of my point, your claim stating otherwise is but another foul misdirection technique that reflect your own failure.
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It's you who have to address your own insecurity
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Your inappropriate finger pointing is getting old and is adolescent. If you are unable to address the point I suggest you move on, you are only embarrassing yourself.
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YAWN
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Holly, I understand what you are trying to say but there are some things you need to understand.
I have a son that I love unconditionally, he is 11 years old and since his mother and I have been divorced she has systematically waged war against me. She has undermined every single effort that I have made to have a relationship with my Son. He is constantly exposed to her distorted perspectives and negative opinion. Thus it is only reasonable to understand that he truly believes me to be a horrible dad. With all his heart he is convinced that all the bad things that have happened to him are because I don't care about him or love him. There is no way for me to convince him otherwise, the harder I fight her the more she hurts him. Recently They both came to me asking that I sign a waiver of parental rights so that he can be adopted by his stepfather. I thought long and hard about it because I only want what is best for my son. I signed the release for the simple fact that regardless of how tightly I hold on I cannot force my son to believe that I love him. I let him go knowing that he will come back to me with questions... about the truth.. and why. I know that if he wants the truth then there is nothing to be afraid of... if he has already decided what the truth is, then there is nothing I can do anyways.
There is sorrow in my heart, but there is also the knowledge and peace that he will come back to me at the right time. And because part of me is in him he will always have the desire to have a relationship with me. No matter how hard he fights to deny my existence or my love or my actions toward him, deep inside his soul he is always a part of me.
back to the subject at hand... if you tell my son you feel sorry for him because he will never feel the unconditional love that I extend to him. He will spit in your face and tell you that he doesn't need your sympathy or my love
The reason he acts that way is because your sympathy assumes that his entire perspective, all of his experiences are completely wrong. You have to accept a persons perspective and experiences because that is the only place they can work from. I prefer to accept the perspectives and experiences of others as they are and to work from that point. I may completely disagree with an atheist or an agnostic, but that doesn't mean that we don't have perspectives that we can share with each other and ultimately find truth together. I often find that atheists and agnostics biggest problem with the subject of God is that they have experienced intense bigotry from christians. And often the distorted image of God that we portray as christians honestly does not always fit with who God actually is.
if you want to read more about the story of signing the release waiver you can read it here jasonthebaldguy.com/2009/08/waiver-of-parental-rights/ -
YESSSSSS morgan exactly like an addiction except this one doesn't kill or harm me! Have u ever been "drunk in the spirit"? Oops dumb question.
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Jason, I appreciate your post here. I also appreciate your sacrifices for your son. I hope some day your boy does turn around and come to you
I want to grant you my personal "post of the day" award for today - hope you accept it! -
Jason at the same time it's a piece of paper u signed. It isn't set in stone. That doesn't mean you #1 can't fight to win his love bc jesus would never just throw his hands up in the air on you even though you may think he has signed the paper as well,and #2 I don't think you or him don't feel a sadness in your heart for eachother.
But I see what ur trying to say though -
I love u tweety bird
But in an annoying like get outta my hair kinda way -
"drunk in the spirit" ah yes, like the 9/11 hijackers that killed themselves and others. I understand that.
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But I AM!
Today is convince-people day for me. but I refuse! -
ha! post of the day eh? thanks I humbly accept...
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Ahhhh....um let me think NOPE!!! My faith is totally different. My faith teaches me life is a gift.
@ morgan -
On second thoughts, I love to be in peoples' hair. So what if a few who are self obsessed think of it in crazy ways?
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I wonder if all the believers in the twin towers felt their fathers unconditional love and peace when the building came crashing down on them. I feel sadness in my heart for them.
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@cT: They will. They always do with everything.
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In an ironic sort of way, we are two of a kind, and I can see why you understand me!
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Morgan, I know we have had several pretty good conversations in the past.. but a tragic death is not necessarily a lack of love. unless your perspective is that death is final. but considering that energy is never destroyed only transformed.. and seeing that somehow when one dies there is no visible discharge of the energy that obviously exists... it has to be transformed and go somewhere.. right?
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@CT: It is exactly because I know how much people will manipulate the church that my presence there may be so important, but first I have to figure out exactly how to fight.
@jason: It's more about the continuation of human consciousness, but yes, death is not final, and it's also an important part of our story and character as human beings. -
Jason, If a "tragic" death does not reflect a lack of love, then why call it "tragic?" Death is final in that the unique combination of matter and energy that makes us, us, ceases to maintain its form. As such, ones consciousness does not follow. I understand that matter or energy is recycled back into the universe in different ways, but this won't comfort most, because the unique combination of matter that once made you, you, is redistributed, "you" are no longer, it's not like your consciousness follows with this redistribution. "You" die, even though the matter and energy that made "you" is redistributed.
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Holly, different people react differently to their addiction, to being high. Some become violent, others depressed, and others relaxed, etc... So your particular addiction, your high, makes you feel that "life is a gift." So what? It doesn't mean that this particular drug addiction is still good for you and everyone else. I for one, don't find it necessary to be high to appreciate life.
“Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?” - Douglas Adam -
@morgan: Tragedy too is a part of this world, and we would not be human if it were not part of us.
And if you look at addiction the way you describe, it would describe not only religious feeling, but indeed all pleasure, all love, everything. -
If you blame the good things in life on god, why not also blame the tragedies on god? And if you do indeed give god credit for the tragedies, then why not ask the question, where was gods kindness, compassion, and "unconditional love" then? All those believers praying for god in the twin towers, "please god don't let this happen to us, spare me god"... Why did he not answer the prayers of all those people, but he answered the prayers of the hijackers.
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morgantj, what really drives me crazy is when there is some catastrophe or near-catastrophe that some people manage to not die from and that's described as a miracle from god. For example, few years back an Air France jet skidded off the runway here in Toronto and continued on into a gully. Everyone made it out before the plane burst into flames, so some people called that a miracle from god. Huh? If god were of a mind to perform miracles, why didn't he keep the frigging plane on the runway in the first place? Destroying a plane and forcing people to flee for their lives is not a miracle. It's just one of those things that happens once in a while because things happen once in a while.
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Exactly Joel! The cherry-picking is just another thing to make me raise an eyebrow. What I find particularly disturbing is when a doctor saves the life of an individual, and the family and friends of the saved victim give thanks to god instead of the doctor. The doc goes to school for years and studies hard, and does a lot of work to get to that position, it even takes a lot of money for all the schooling, but god is given the credit in the end for the docs hard work and expertise that really saved the life of that individual.
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@morgan: I did no such thing. I pointed out why maybe what you think is bad is much more righteous then you realize. Do free-will and actually living have no value? Did it ever occur to you that as human beings we are responsible for ourselves, and the elements? Did you think we were given all this by an omnipotent God much greater then we are for nothing?
He loves us because of our humanity. Without our humanity, we are nothing. I'm sorry. That freedom is both our blessing and our curse - we get to be real problem, real individuals, but the curse is that we are 100% responsible, perhaps even too responsible, for ourselves, our actions, and our fate. -
jeremyjanson, I don't believe we have free-will. I believe we are determined through causality. And if you haven't noticed, I also don't believe in an omnipotent god.
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Just weighing in on the addiction comment: it is well-documented that addictions to anything (drugs, alcohol, sex, gambling, etc.) may cause a "rush" but they also produce self-destructive behavior and physical illness.
By contrast, it is well-documented that those who have a vital, sincere relationship with Christ experience times of euphoria and a pervasive peace. It's especially interesting to look at the behavior of people who are converted to Christianity. Their behavior after conversion displays more compassion and love for those around them, more focus, a reduction in self-destructive behaviors, enhanced self-image, and a greater capacity for optimism. This information comes from a study published in the American Journal of Psychiatry; if you're interested in the exact article I can try to find it for you. -
I'd be interested in reading that, yes, please post the link. Thank you.
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I'm unable to find an online copy that doesn't require a subscription to a science archive, but here is the citation for your own research:
Nicholi, II, A.M. A new dimension of the youth culture. American Journal of. Psychiatry, 1974, 131, 4, 396-400.
This particular article has been cited and excerpted in dozens of other scientific works. -
@morgan, free-will: Okay. I mostly disagree with you. You studied Calvinism at all? It's a deterministic interpretation of the Bible. I've got kind of a biased view against it as you can probably tell, so I won't try to talk to you about it myself, but it's an interesting idea and if you have some extra time at so point...
@morgan, Omnipotent God: I was demonstrating how I think God came to his decisions, and the way that allowing bad things to happen is more righteous then you realize. I did misphrase it, however, probably because I was thinking about a friend who spoke a very similar rhetorical question to your statement not long ago.
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Yes! I believe in God. I believe in the Trinity. I believe in God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit! I believe in the life-giving blood of Jesus that was shed so that we could be redeemed and become born-again! -
In an infinity of universes it could BE every belief is true! (smile)
There's certainly room.
If one believes in heaven and hell - okay - one will end up in either heaven or hell.
If one believes all will go to the same place - one will find all one knows is there.
If one believes in nothing - one will not exist. Nothing.
If one believes in reincarnation - one will be reincarnated.
etc. etc. etc.
If several beliefs can be expressed in this brief discussion, surely an INFINITY of universes can handle these and a few more. (smile again)-
Great point of view.
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"In My Father's house there are many mansions." (Jesus Christ) Unfortunately, there is only one God and one truth, just as there is only one truth in nature and in life. Every action you take, when looked at in full, has one consequence, every human body the same basic forms and deficiencies, and every strain of DNA the same basic elements. Only in the conduct of men can subjectivity truly exist. But if your concern is that there is only room for one kind of person or one kind of viewpoint or culture, that care could not be further from the truth, for God made each and every one of us, and you can only be detached from Him if you detach YourSelf, which isn't yours to begin with. God is jealous - I think that means you're not only welcome, but obligated. Indeed, Paul makes clear that Christians are supposed to be "rich among the rich, poor among the poor, and lawless (but still under Gods law) among the lawless." You are not supposed to be a Laputian up in your flying castle in the sky, but here on Earth, IN the world, but not OF it.
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That is a very interesting view...
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I believe in God.I have always believed in God.I've turned my back on God many time,but I still came back to him.I believe that believeing in God will not get you into heaven.You have to yield your will to his.Satan believes in God but he will end up in the lake of fire at the end of history.I am saved by faith through grace. -
For me it´s an unexplainable, intelligent energy. Indefinable. If you define something, it´s not energy, because you can´t just put limits to it, so if people call it God, they are limiting it with a name.I would not call it him or her, it´s just a powerful energy which everything alive shares. If you call something by a name, say "car" or "table", you call it that, because it has limits; it ends there. This, because, if it doesn't end there, you can't define it. It would be "everything". If you take a closer look at DNA, cell function, chemistry, physics, you will have to establish this have been thought, not just random. Everything have its inherent logic and reason. But I don't believe it's a punishing dad, just because you got drunk or something like that. Just a point of view, of course. No one really knows.
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Yes. and No.
good luck with the huge mess -
For those who believe in God, no explanation is necessary.
For those who do not believe God, no explanation is possible.-
The burden of proof is on the one making the positive claim. For example, If I were to say, "Fairies hold my shoelaces together," It would be reasonable for others to be skeptical of this claim until I provided evidence of some sort. And the skeptics would indeed believe if evidence were presented that proved the claim to be correct.
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Damn right!!!!!!!!!!!!
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@morgan: Look at my exchange with iratedog. Keep in mind also that while shoelaces being held together can be easily explained by chemistry, Science still has no logical explanation for what caused the Big Bang! This does not prove my point, granted, but it does add a little incremental support.
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jeremy: Religion still has no logical explanation for what caused God to come into existence! By your argument, doesn't this add a little incremental support to the theory that god does not exist?
No, it doesn't, but neither does our inability to explain the cause of the big bang add any credence to the god hypothesis. Ignorance is not evidence for anything. It is the lack of evidence. -
Exactly Joel. However, when it is pointed out that the logic of a theist fails to prove god, they pull out the ol' "god cannot be understood by mere men or explained with logic" while at the same time they claim to know and understand so much about their god. Curious to say the least.
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Yeah I know. They try to shut down all discussion by pulling out that old saw, and then they proceed to discuss it some more in their terms. It makes discussion pointless, but I like beating my head against the wall because it feels so good when I stop.
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LOL!
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@Joel & Morgan: Yes, but it does make it clear that God is outside of the universe, explaining why rules of causality do not hold.
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@jeremy: No, it makes clear no such thing. It just makes clear that we don't yet (and probably never will) know what caused the big bang,. By the way, it is also not clear there is, in fact, a law of causality. That's something that humans made up because it intuitively seemed right, not because we were able to prove it's true.
Besides, there are a lot of things we don't yet understand about the universe. My understanding is that most scientists who specialize in this area consider the big bang to be a "singularity", i.e., an event through which no information can pass. It's possible that what existed on the other side of that singularity was another universe with different laws of physics and different universal constants that caused the creation of a universe and possibly made it inevitable. If they're right about singularities then, by definition, we'll never know for sure.
I'm not saying that the inability to explain how the universe or a god could have come into existence is proof or disproof of a god. What I'm saying is it is neither proof nor evidence of anything other than our lack of knowledge and understanding in those areas. Period. -
I can see why people believe in things like evolution and the big bang theory, but I would never presume to say that logic fails to prove either of those things are true.
Any theist/atheist discussion I've seen ends up going in circles. Atheists and theists provide the same arguments for each of their sides; neither side offers anything new. The fact is, we look at the same world and draw two different conclusions from what we see.
What can we do to have meaningful conversations between atheists and theists? It doesn't have to be an us vs. them discussion.
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If you Google search & read the May 15th Prophecy, you would see why I believe!!
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I googled but only found you everywhere
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"The reason the May 15th Prophecy has been 100% accurate is because unlike the false prophesies of false prophets (of which the whole world is filled with)."
um... sentence structure. -
I was going to say that that is a good one... then I realized that it was serious
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I really dont know what to say. This reeks of stupidity and foolishness
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I'm trying to figure out the psychological term...
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I believe in God.
I dont believe in holy trinity.-
yays!
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Nothing comes out of nothing.
Someone had to create us.
Only in a ego maniacal driven world people don't believe in anything anymore and their whole life is devoid of purpose.-
If nothing comes out of nothing, then the "someone" you claim created us couldn't have came out of nothing.
And if you only believe because you want some kind of objective purpose in life, such motivation offers no value of verity to that in which you believe rendering the value of your intentions of believing null.
Furthermore, it is an ego maniacal person that personifies the first cause in reflection mans image so much to the point as to call the first cause "someone." -
I just recognize a higher power, whether I call it "God" or some other name doesnt change the fact that I do recognize it.
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I'm curious, how do you explain the higher powers existence if it couldn't have came from nothing?
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I don't explain it.
Not everything can be explained in a logical fashion, our basic thinking brain is still just a calculating processor, our higher parts of the brain are unbound to ratinalization.
Just like Physics and Quantum physics have valid points and contradictions and they negate each other so many times since they explain things only at a certain level. -
Well you made two truth claims in an attempt to explain your position - "Nothing comes out of nothing" and "Someone had to create us." but you don't follow through on these claims since you willingly ignore the obvious contradictions. And just saying well, other stuff out there has contradictions too, doesn't help your case. Those things as well as this remain questionable. Until we work out these contradictions, the answers are unknown, so how can anyone claim to "know" that "Someone had to create us."
If I were to follow your logic, it is just as possible that someone didn't have to create us, since it could be just another one of those "contradictions." -
thats why all experience is subjective.
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MorgantJ, just as I responded to Joel above, most religious philosophers believe in the idea of a "primary cause". There was a beginning cause for everything that has been created, and God is that beginning cause. However, not all people are able to communicate sophisticated philosophical concepts or have all the answers for what they believe; this does not mean that there is no answer.
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It's a pretty bold to claim to "know" the first cause without being able to support and justify it. Also, on one hand believers say that something couldn't have come from nothing, yet on the other hand they have no problem believing that god came from nothing. They make an acception for their belief in god, despite the obvious contradiction. I find this questionable.
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Morgan, again I will say that Christian philosophers often believe that there was a beginning cause for everything that has been created, and God is that beginning cause.
Not every Christian has heavily studied philosophy of religion, so they may begin with the basic idea that nothing comes from nothing, without being able to articulate the first premise of that belief: God is the primary cause.
This is similar to a scientific view of the universe in which the non-religious might say we live in an evolving universe, without mentioning or understanding the "Big Bang Theory."
Do you see the parallel? I hope this helps you understand the point I was making. -
By the way, it's also bold to claim a concept like the Big Bang theory is true, since we can't prove that either. For either point of view (or any other theory for the existence of the universe) we can only make observations and draw conclusions from the information available to us.
Through observation and conclusions, some believe one thing, some people believe another. I can certainly understand why some people would believe in a non-created universe, even though I don't accept their conclusions as the truth. And I would certainly never say they haven't offered any proof for their beliefs - I would say that I don't accept what they have offered as proof. -
to any philosophical/scientific dispute of the existence of GOD
where do the rules of logic,chaos,order,quantum physics come from. What forces everything to stay within its own realm? how can you explain the fact that anything exists.
At some point it is not foolish to deduct that something beyond our ability to perceive would intelligently design the beauty and symmetry and established hierarchy of order in everything from micro to macro.
Regarding causality, quantum physics allows for all possibilities simultaneously, the understanding that observation renders a result. how do you validate causality being the only driver from that perspective. -
jasonthebaldguy, if you think it is not foolish to deduct that something beyond our ability to perceive would intelligently design everything from micro to macro. Then it is also not foolish to concede that such a intelligent creator must also require a creator, and that creator would require a creator, and so forth, and the logic leads into an infinite regression.
Also, just because there are many "unknowns" that we don't have answers for, it doesn't logically follow that therefore those unknowns should be filled with "god did it" It is the classic god of the gaps argument which fails. It is a logical fallacy, particularly an argument from ignorance. -
so you are saying that we should all believe only that which can be proven? I find this to be as much a fallacy because we can only begin from a point which we assume to be truth. To be fair nothing on this earth is fully proven to be fact.. and can change in a moments notice given the right discovery.
also you didn't answer my question about causality. -
I agree you shouldn't just slap God to fill in the gaps however, there is to me indisputable proof of my experience with God here
jasonthebaldguy.com/2009/10/impossibility/
jasonthebaldguy.com/2009/04/that-girl/
This story is about me completely walking away because of the things I had been through... I created a list of the "perfect woman" and I shook my fist at God and swore that I would never darken the door of a church again until I met that woman. I was fully convinced that God could not orchestrate such an event and was satisfied that I would live my life without his input from that point on. But he pursued me... I was done... he put her right in front of me so that I could not escape the fact that he was acting visibly in my life.
this is the proof that I can offer yes it is only experiential but both me and my wife have experienced this and more events like it together, and others have witnessed the story of our relationship.
so In order for you to verify my "experiment" scientifically you would need to similarly shake your fist at God and ask for proof that he exists... regardless of whether you believe that he does or not. If you don't get a response then no loss you can forget it ever happened. If you do get a response then don't ignore the proof that you get.. Just be careful what you ask for -
Jason, I said leave the unknowns as unknowns. And not try to fill in every unknown with "god did it."
There are many interpretations of quantum mechanics, some are deterministic, others not, it hasn't been agreed upon on which interpretation is correct. The saying goes, "if you think you understand quantum mechanics, then you don't understand quantum mechanics." It is misused in so many ways, often by religious zealots. So quantum mechanics doesn't necessarily conflict with causality, in several interpretations it supports it. -
so can you truly attribute my significant turn of events to be solely based on causality? Because it would specifically require that not only an individual match specific "listed traits" but also happen to intersect paths with me within a specific time frame (1 month) for me to attribute the result to an action. as you well know a coincidence is rare enough let alone a scheduled one...
so how would you explain this experience that has so dramatically affected my life? -
also what is your perspective on wind
It does not exist as an object, yet its effects are undeniable. It is not defined by elements such as "oxegen,nitrogen,ect." It is a force yes but to prove the existence of wind to me you must show me the effects of wind... nothing else
Proving the existence of God is very similar, he is an undeniable force that holds things together yet many would argue that by some sheer will everything holds itself together. The proof is in the things that we witness, sometimes during, but often after the fact and the wind does not predictably affect things the same even though conditions might be extremely similar. However due to its constant nature we do not argue that it exists.
From that perspective do you discount any experiential events that do not meet your exact specifications to be falsified or invalid? -
Wind? You're kidding right? Actually wind IS defined as the flow of air and other gasses caused by pressure changes. Wind is testable, measurable, verifiable, and reproducible. God is not. Visibility is not the issue. Though I understand that those that believe in Fartology subscribe to wind as their god.
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hah fartology! so you still have not answered a single question of mine in any of my posts... only addressed my statements... care to procede?
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Well, you just asked me about "wind" and I answered. And I also addressed your causality question. I still have to follow those links you posted and read the contents before I can answer your question in regards to them.
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ok cool... man I wish these threads were easier to follow.. It gets a little thick in here! It would be nice if there was a marker to show new posts that I haven't read yet.
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Morgan while I would love to discuss this to infinity but it ends up being a vicious cycle I do have a few posts about this that might give a better picture of where I stand and less from a defensive standpoint.
jasonthebaldguy.com/2009/06/fate-vs-destiny/
jasonthebaldguy.com/2008/12/how-could-he/
I am offering these posts as an explanation of my views, not as a rebuttal to yours. As I have said in many posts before... I understand you have made your decision on things and I respect that you have a right to your point of view.. however you tend to react quickly to blood in the water as if there is something to gain from winning an argument. I would say that continuing to be so vicious against believers smacks of the types of behavior that you accuse Christianity of. I concede your point that we do not have it all together... but that is hardly the point is it? the point is that people that argue viciously are often afraid that they are wrong and the harder pressed the more viciously they attack... I learned this arguing with christians ironically!
so no hard feelings... just be at peace man!-
Arguing that I am being vicious without anything to support the claim smacks of ad hominem misdirection. Even if that were true (please click on "report" if that is true), arguing my tone offers no value to the discussion, what you should be addressing is the substance of my dialog not what you perceive to be my tone. If you are unable to discuss this without starting what you call a "vicious cycle" then I commend you on ceasing communications.
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vicious may not be a fitting qualifier. I do not mean that you are being ugly but that your posts are consistent in detracting from any view other than your own. It is just that I would hope to see at some point an empathetic tone rather than what I perceive as an angry vengeful vendetta against God and anyone that believes in him. I disagree with many people here but there is a camaraderie of understanding that none of us holds ultimate truth and we are discussing it together... granted there are some on my side of the fence that do more harm than good for arguments sake but I have always been respectful and understanding of your views.
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Show me where I have been disrespectful. I don't find me simply asking questions to be of any disrespect. I have not pushed my view, I have only questioned the details of others views looking to gain a better understanding. This "angry vengeful vendetta against God" stereotype of anyone that questions believers is getting old and not even applicable. I again stress that any belief that states it cannot be questioned is a belief worth questioning. And my tone in doing so has been indifferent, so show me the offenses or carry on with some meaningful topic driven dialog.
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Morgan, I think you're taking this a little too personally. Jason said "it ends up being a vicious cycle", not YOU are being vicious. A vicious cycle basically means that solving one problem leads to another (and sometimes greater) problem. He very rightfully pointed out that discussions like these often turn into a vicious cycle.
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On the contrary, he does claim that I am being vicious - jasonthebaldguy said, "however you tend to react quickly to blood in the water as if there is something to gain from winning an argument. I would say that continuing to be so vicious against believers smacks of the types of behavior that you accuse Christianity of" So again I rebut this with, show me my offenses or carry on with some meaningful topic driven dialog. I for one shall not avoid discussing such an interesting topic just because the possibility of a "vicious cycle" due to people that can't take constructive critism, dialog, and questioning.
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Blood comment - point conceded to you.
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Morgan is hereby called for being an AI bot! You LOSE!!!
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CrazyTsu, if I thought you had any idea what you were talking about I might consider your soft-witted comments perjury, but since I suspect you are unable to formulate any coherent reasonable comments beyond insolence, I am unmoved by your birdbrain indelicacy.
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I reserve my response to that. Till the time you get to know me better!
And am I sensing that you take offense at the most non-provocative statements?
Try to see the 'real' meaning of my post beyond what the words say. Resorting to name calling is not a good sign from a logical thinker -
Resorting to name calling is not a good sign from a logical thinker. My thoughts exactly! Which I why I didn't find your name calling (AI Bot) very constructive to the conversation.
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If you really consider, the AI bot is just a description of your posts, not a personal attack
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Apparently you havn't been reading my posts or you have some kind of unique personal definition for "AI bot." Because I found it quite an inaccurate description.
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So you turned it into something personal? In that case you let insecurity lead your way
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You made it personal when you started with the personal name calling rather then simply addressing arguments. Savy?
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again, a description of the argument style is not a personal affront. Yes, your argument style is linked to you personally, but it's fair game in a discussion so it's not personal in that sense
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What exactly is an "AI bot" argument style? My argument style is more along the lines of socratic dialog.
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I have not read socrates' dialogs. I have however conversed with an AI bot and your posts reminded me of that occasion. However the reference need not necessarily be derogatory
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morgan....
I see what your Purpose is allready..
To argue, since you do that on each of this discussions.
Have you considered a profession as a Politician?-
I'm simply asking questions. Constructive inquiry. I'm curious to know why people believe what they believe. I apply the same scrutiny that I apply to every other aspect of life. Any belief that states it cannot be questioned is a belief worth questioning.
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Your skeptical method of inquiry is very valid, but maybe you shouldn't just draw conclusions based on rationalizations, we're not just brain we have something thats called emotion, if you deny that then we're just robots, which we all know its not true, we are much more then that.
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What do you believe to be my "conclusions" exactly that are based on rationalizations?
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You just follow a very linear way of thinking where everything needs a proof so it can be explained.
This is nothing new.
It's called Science.
If science has all the answers for you please go get them, but accept other views on reality also. -
I haven't even asked for proof, just the logic behind the reasoning for ones beliefs. Also, I don't have to "accept" others views. But I do at least consider, acknowledge, and respect them. "And even if I disapprove of what you say, I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Voltaire. However, If those views can't even stand up to a bit of questioning, they are indeed worth questioning.
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Question:
Is everything one or we are all separate? -
Perhaps both. I think everything is one in the sense that everything is part of the universe. But seperate in that we are "parts" of the universe. Similar to how there is one you. But there are parts to you. Legs, arms, brain, cells, blood, etc... that combined, make one whole you.
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But thats just saying that we are one.
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It is saying both, but carry on to what you are driving towards.
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Your perception on reality will define your reality and how you deal with it.
If you are one with everything you are connected to everything.
If you are separate...well...you are separated. -
okay, I have no objections, please continue.
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I was just commenting on my experience with people like that, they kinda follow the same behavioral patterns.
Religious fanatics are nothing better.
I meant to post this to the lower reply) -
I haven't ran into that. Most atheists I know are the first ones to admit what they don't know. Especially those heavily influenced by science.
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If I were God I'd smite everyone.
Just sayin'.
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When you say "smite" you mean "kill," right? It's not code for something much more enjoyable, is it? Just askin'.
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I’d guess a lot of the hostility towards the idea of God is mostly hostility towards religion. Often that hostility is justified. The idea of a God itself is harmless enough. But religion…that’s a different story. Religion is not harmless…religion can be really scary stuff. And True Believers can be scary scary. I want to wear a True Believer costume for Halloween and win the prize for best costume.-
yes but this post wasn't about religion its about God.
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Bust most people get their belief in a specific god from their religion.
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Non-religion is often a scary and harmful thing, also.
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The questioner mentioned the Trinity, a Christen concept. God does not only belong to our own religion, but to other’s too. If we mention God along with Jesus or Allah in the same breath, we are discussing religion. Nothing wrong with that, as long as we accept others might view God differently. But that’s the problem, isn’t it? Can we accept other beliefs as being as valid as our own?
From my experience, the atheists I know rejected God because they rejected a religion, usually the one they were raised up in. Tolerance and diversity is the answer!-
There is a diversity of gods as well, yet for the most part, nobody believes in those gods anymore, but they used to with the same passion that modern believers believe in Yahweh. Everyone doesn't believe in thousands of other gods that have been claimed to exist, atheists just disbelieve in one god further.
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In my exp. people that don't believe in God have a Huge inflated ego and most of them claim that know everything, as my kung fu teacher used to say, 'people that know everything, know nothing'.
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Wow, you want a side of stereotype and ad hominen with your generalization? I could make some generalizations about believers from my experiences too, but what substance and value would that add to the discussion?
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Not OUR God, however...
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No and no, it is not for me. -
I don`t believe in god. Reason: because I 100% know that it doesn`t exist. If no kidding and think logically god was created in order that some people would be able to control the other people relying on God, and speaking on his behalf. If you read the Bible carefully and with common sense, you will find there numerous inconsistencies and discrepancies. This means only one thing: it was written for a particular purpose. It`s main purpose - control the masses.-
One cannot "know" something doesn't exist. It is not falsifiable.
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morgantj: yes, and you particularly can't "know" that God does not exist because of the way the god hypothesis has been constructed. Even if someone were able to come up with conclusive proof, based on proven laws of physics, that God could not exist the true believers would tell you, "Yes, but God is omnipotent so he can change the laws of physics to make it look as if he doesn't exist." They never tell you why God is such a practical joker, but how do you argue with nonsense like that?
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The burden of proof is on the one making the positive claim. Since they are the ones claiming a god exist, the burden is on them to justify this claim. Unfortunetly, they lack supporting evidence for their claims, so they must add on one unsupported claim to another. The structure of their argument becomes more and more like a stack of playing cards that you can blow over with just a breath. They create their own evasive god-like character that in then end contains characteristics that contradict itself. You don't need to argue with them on such nonsense, they destroy their own argument.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, then how is it that a single word which represents such an extraordinary claim has the ability to survive for such a long time without extraordinary evidence to support it’s implications? Simple, never clearly define the word to begin with, and allow it’s hosts to adapt it’s definition to the environment. Allow it’s authors to change the definition and characteristics of the word at their will. Allow it to be redefined over and over again so that it can conveniently attempt to avoid old and new contradicting evidence. Permit people to redefine it at any time to meet their own personal needs. I present to you, the independently experienced personal “god.”
It’s evasiveness is legendary, it’s definition is elusive, it’s meaning is adaptable, it is intangible to all except to the one who provokes the thought. It is the impalpable, definition shifting, meme replicating, evasive “god” expression. -
Morgan, I would like to point out that there is a HGE difference between offering evidence that another person does not accept, and offering no evidence at all.
Many intelligent Christians have given the reasons and the proof they have for what they believe. If it is not sufficent proof for others, that is a different situation than having no proof at all. -
There is a reason believers only have "faith," it is because they do not have evidence or proof. Because if they had evidence/proof, they wouldn't need faith, they would "know."
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Again I say that believers do have proof and reasons for what they believe. If you don't accept the proof, that's your choice, but it doesn't make sense for you to say no proof was offered.
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What is this "proof" you speak of? I am curious. What proof is there for the existence of a god? I don't think I have seen any proofs offered in this thread, only statements of belief.
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I'd like to add my name to morgantj's as wanting to see your "proof." I've seen human-written stories or, at least, stories that could very easily have been written by humans, despite some people claiming otherwise. If a deity put something in these stories that no human could possibly discover on his or her, but which could be verified by a human once the truth was revealed, that would be a proof. But I've never seen anything that a rational being would consider to be proof. Please enlighten me as to what proof you are referring to.
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My response giving proof of the existence of God became so lengthy that I turned it into today's blog post. Here is the link:
angelawd.com/2009/10/27/can-you-prove-the-existence-of-god/ -
Blind faith is a thing that helps religion keep afloat until now. I never understood the blind faith in something that is written in the Bible by certain persons. Except the Bible, God is not mentioned anywhere. And such book I can write too, and then promote it around the world. I recognize only the knowledge and understanding of processes occuring in Nature and Universe rather than blind faith in god.
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@balor: The Bible does not support blind faith, it supports following God through the evidence in your own life and letting your heart be open to God that his light may shine in to you and be magnified through you. Faith has more to do with trusting and having good will towards God, understanding his greatness, and allowing that to take hold of and influence your life.
You are told by Christ to "accept the Kingdom of Heaven as a little child," but in the context of Christs other teachings, actions, and other books of the bible (especially OT, with Job, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, Exodus and Genesis all coming to mind) it's pretty clear that he means keeping the inner child and the brightness and sweet innocence of your heart alive, much as King David did even as he was an awesome fighter laying waste to hundreds of men for the safety, freedom, and way of life of Isreal, with his good friend Jonathan by his side and God always just over the horizon. No matter how horrible things got, the betrayal of his own son, the difficult deeds and harsh obligations that he had to carry out, David always kept that love alive. -
Did you read the Torah? In principle, the same as the old testament... In the Torah, the people of Israel - is the chosen people. And the rest of people in the world are slaves. Only this fact suggests the Bible falsified book written in order that would control the masses by "chosen people". And you can find many such facts in the Bible, that would assume that this and other religion books are falsified. There is in the Bible mentioned phrase "God`s Slave" That clearly indicates that the man must be the slave. Do you want to be a slave? Personally, I do not.
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Balor, I'm sure most Christians have heard "the Bible is full of errors" argument before, and it usually indicates that someone is unfamiliar with the bible or the particular quote they have chosen.
In fact, the Torah is the same book as the first five chapters of the bible; Muslims also believe they are worshipping the same Old Testament God. -
@balor: That phrase applied every bit as much to the Isrealis as every other people on earth.
The "God's slave" note did at one time trouble me greatly, but it is worthy of noting that this was in a very different cultural context, and that in most societies Slavery was nowhere near as degenerate or horrifying as it was in this nation 150 years ago. In fact, in the Bible, if you read Deuteronomy and Leviticus, a slave was entitled to about the same amount of legal rights as a freeman, was entitled to some compensation for his work, and could leave his master after serving him 7 years. Ancient Athens was very similar.
Further, nowhere did it say the rest of the peoples of the world were irrelevant or subservient, though it does make clear that God did/does to a limited degree even today have a little additional loyalty for Isreal and will settle with them in any kind of dispute, even to the point of human blood. Sometimes the enemy of Isreal was even allowed to win briefly, only to be destroyed many times over by God afterwards. Like the Assyrians and the Philistines.
See, there are a total of four covenants between man and God, and you spoke of one of them. There is the first covenant, in the time of Adam and Eve and continuing until just after Noah in Genesis, when man and God were in near constant communion and all were invited.
There was the second covenant, with Abraham and his descendants, on faith, and some of Abrahams dialouge seems to imply that God used idols in that time to communicate more indirectly with the rest of humanity.
There is the third covenant, the one through Moses specifically with Isreal of which you mention, which slowly fell apart as a result of Isreals disobedience and cultural disintegration.
All these fell apart over time due to the neglect of man, and had consequences, from the near destruction of Earth (Noahs flood) and annihilation of the offenders so that the one last remaining semi-righteous family could live, to the enslavement of Isreal's children, to finally the numerous wars and eventual destruction of Second Temple Isreal, and near disownment by God, though a very small portion of the First and Third covenants is still on the books as King Davids great wish that the Isrealis remain as a people has been granted, as has the Image of God and longing for God leftover to us from the First.
Finally, there is the Fourth covenant, the one through the body of Christ which stands even today, away from the original sin of Adam and in to the light of the mercy of God. -
There is still one big nonsense. One of the basic laws of Christianity is patience. Let them kill your relatives, let them rape your daughters, let them cheat you and you must be patient with all that. And Bible say you that if you're patient you will get in paradise, BUT ONLY AFTER DEATH. Even on these things can be seen that religion is trying to turn man into a patient servant who would go to paradise ONLY AFTER DEATH. This is the same thing as you promise to your child make a trip to Disneyland and constantly defer it. In my understanding it is absolutely unnatural for the man, and it once again demonstrates that religion was created in order to turn the man into an irresponsible animal who constantly invoke the God.
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@balor: That's actually a falsehood, and part of the reason God killed Ananias in Acts 5. He knew people would misinterpret His teachings that way and so He made, this time, His church vulnerable to being destroyed by an elaborate and horrifying web of cruelty and lies (lying to the Holy Spirit) and then destroyed the evildoer and let Paul make out like a Cowboy just before doing it to make the point that, in point of fact, just as the grace of Christ has necessary limits, so does the grace of the Christian.
This also goes back to the Torah. It may say "thou shalt not kill" (Exodus 20: 13) but it also says "If a thief is caught breaking in and is struck so that he dies, the defender is not guilty of bloodshed;" (Exodus 22: 2) and in Numbers 2 it is made clear that warfare is often right, necessary and just. Point is, the bible has 1300 pages, why discard 1299 of them to focus on one?
EDITED: But let me ask you, what is your priority? To protect your family or to harm the assailant? -
Please do not bring excerpts from the Torah, cause in there I see only explicit calls to the enslavement of other peoples by the Jews. So I have no respect for the Torah long ago. I very like those words "Poor people are watching how the stars rotate, but strong people rotate them themselves" it can be paraphrased as "Poor people are praying the god, but strong people are gods themselves" The man has everything that would be god himself, just need to develop and work hard on yourself.
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@balor: I just looked for your phrase on BibleGateway and it didn't seem to come up anywhere. Tried about 10 different translations even. Stars are often used as a metaphor for fate, though, and thus it might be a statement about free-will. In any case, I find the Torah a beautiful and loving book about the one and only and completely awesome God.
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I do not understand your passion with which you mention the Bible. The Bible has many stories that I believe are inhumane in nature. As I see that religion makes people frightened and irresponsible creatures. Religious people always refers to God no matter what happens bad or good thing. Religion makes people weak. I always go forward and do not expect anyone, and for all my successes, I am grateful just to my nature and not to god. I always get everything in life that I conceived, and I do not go to church and do not pray anywhere. I'll tell you one thing from my own life experience: "Iron will, desire and work on yourself can make a man the god." When you reaching a certain level of development, it is can be very easy to manage events in your life without any gods. In general we have strongly different points of view on religion.
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@balor:
"Iron will, desire and work on yourself can make a man the god."
Growing up out West, I always knew better then that:
You will never do as great as these.
I understand that you take a lot of pride in your responsibility and ambition, and I appreciate that and, in proper perspective, there is nothing wrong with that. But even an Atheist, if he is honest with himself, will at least appreciate the debt he has to nature and the world around him, and how small he really is in all of this.
We all make mistakes like this, and there is no shame in it, for that's how you are and will be, but this particular mistake may kill you, and I don't mean by some arbitrary judgement by God but rather by the harm you do to yourself and your own understanding!
I hope I'm not coming off judgemental, I'm really just trying to save you from a lot of despair and a horrible lesson that may well cost you everything you have won, with or without God, by virtue of your own decisions.
You did not create yourself. Even Dawkins will tell you that you are the product of your mother and father who were the product of their mother and father and so on until finally you reach the primordial soup. And if you think you're high and mighty, forget God, think what a mountain lion will think about that as it eyes you for a potential lunch. I'm glad you've been a good steward of yourself in many ways, but lying to yourself about your origin, your fathership, your blood and life, that is not healthy. It will distort your mind and weaken you, from the mind outward, by gouging your very eyes out and eventually bring you to the edge of complete pointlessness. It will do everything you say religion will. And in the end, you won't even be able to love yourself, because you will always come up short of this bar you have presented to yourself, and deep down inside, you will know EXACTLY how small you are and it will bring you no peace.
Now this said, I do agree that not valuing yourself is not a virtue. In fact, in Christianity it's a sin. "Love thy neighbor as thyself" not "love thy neighbor only." If you don't love yourself, how can you really value what God has done in you and for you - it will just look like a waste and leave you cold inside.
I tell you this not to judge you, or condemn you, for I tell you, I have done truly awful things in my own life, things of which I am ashamed of to my very core, and while the reasons may have been different, they were no better! I hope, regardless of what you believe religiously, that you can at least reconcile yourself with reality before it is too late. I appreciate you and this discussion we have had. Good night and may things go well for you.
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God is a creator!
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Holly: "I do however feel a sadness in my heart for atheist and agnostics because they will never feel the kind of unconditional love that you and I share from our father,and it truly is a peace that no other kind of feeling or emotion can give you."
I have to disagree - I'm a non-practicing Catholic - I believe there is a greater power, I believe Jesus was not the "son" of God but just a disciple of a profound religion. Holy Spirit doesn't even come in to play. However, I have true peace and love in my life, and it doesn't come from religion. It comes from the devotion and love of my friends and family. So to think that atheists or agnostics can't have as fulfilling a life as you just because you're a devout Christian seems odd to me. My friends, family and I find contentment not in a Church or a storybook, but in our lives, in our actions and in our love.-
well said.
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@ morgantj: thank you =) to each his own is my motto, but to say someone else's life is devoid of fulfillment because they are not a card-carrying Christian totally contradicts my life. I am truly happy, fulfilled and loving and it's not by the grace of God - it's because of who I am.
@ Juliuss - show me a miracle that involves "the Trinity" around me. I'll buy the higher power, as someone had to have kicked off evolution, but not the Trinity. -
@stjavo: Interestingly, the trinity is not actually mentioned in the bible, although a very clear ascension and distribution of power (Holy Spirit -> Christ -> Father) is. The trinity was a theological concept developed by former adherents of the Roman religion to explain and describe certain aspects of the Gospel that seem hard to understand.
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I believe in God and the trinity or how do you explain the unusual miracles that is happening around you-
What miracles? All I see are statistics.
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So true! There are so many amazing things happening all around us... some people may think that it's nothing, or just a coincidence... but I think it's God.
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400 years back a plane was also a miracle
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I think you have the wrong idea.
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I knew this would be a controversy. Do I believe in God? I believe in something. I don't know if you would call it God. Something created all this I don't care so much if it's a big bang or a being. I don't believe in the Bible so much though. That's like the rumor game it's been rewritten and reworded so many times it's not even funny. It is a great starter for history though if you pick through it enough.-
I don't think this is a controversy - I think it's everyone sharing their opinions/beliefs/thoughts and then others questioning them. I see nothing wrong in questioning someone because if you're going to believe in something, it better be solid. I love conversations like this. As long as no one's hurling names, it's a group of adults having a good conversation. Far better than "do you like shopping" LOL
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That's true. BTW I do like shopping as long as I don't have to spend $5,000 in one weekend. Long story, I should blog it one day.
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I agree. I think that we can all "just talk" about what we believe and doing it all like grown-ups... hehe. I could probably talk with an atheist and still just talk. I think what people believe is interesting. I do not agree with everything, but what can you do... Just like I do not believe in being homosexual, but still, I do not judge them or treat them any different from anyone else. I had friends that were gay, and I loved them to death! Everyone is equal in my eyes.
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I beleive in what I know. I know that there have been times in my life where I put my life, heart and stress into the hands of a higher power. I know those times I was able to carry through it felt like I was being carried. Whether of not that was a spiritual being or just the strength we become infused with when we no longer feel alone, I do not know...but either way I call that GOD.-
Makes perfect sense to me.
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I believe only in one thing... In the evolution and interaction of matters in the Universe... in this interaction of matters manifests the system that acts on the events and processes occurring on earth and universe... all the miracles taking place on the earth is nothing but the interaction of various kinds of matters... and they has nothing divine... But I can write a book too and call it the Bible and using it fool people around )))
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2 movies that should be watched by both opposing sides:
The Athiesm Tapes (a philosphical discussion by 2 men, one athiest, the other im not so sure...but he played devils advocate for the god believing side)
God On trial (the jews in a concentration camp but God on trial for his failure to deliver them out of Nazi hands....they bring up many biblical stories and many valid points...its a true story....)
i dont see any valid reason in believing in the christian sense of God (the trinity and all that)....
but i must say, although i am this close to claiming athiesm, i still have some belief in a higher power......
maybe old habits are hard to shake....-
Some think that the Christian concept of "GOD" is a reasoning made up centuries and ages ago by philosophers to preceive the passing of time, the meaning of life and the reason for death. This concept turned into religion for territorial reasons and used as methods to control political and civil matters. Originally however, it's said that "GOD" can be simplified as an emotion, but not a power.
Thoughts?
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I do. If I go to a car dealership and see a car on the showroom floor, I know that amazing piece of technology didn't just appear, there was not a "bang" and it showed up, nor did it evolve from a Matchbox toy. A decision was made to create it, then the plan was carried out, with the end result of the vehicle sitting on the showroom floor.
How much more amazing is the human body. Consider just the eye, or the nervous system...the brain! I believe a person would have to willfully choose to disregard common sense to no believe God exists. Then, once that's settled, it's time to say "God, I believe you are real, I want to know more about you."
I might add, the fact that food grows out of the ground and on trees. Look at the beauty of the seasons, the animals, flowers etc...God is amazing!
Great question and thanks for taking time to put it out there!-
God does sound amazing from your description! God is surely the best showroom design. Something so amazing and all powerful, I wonder what created god, surely god too must have been created.
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Morgan you make an assumption that something must be created based from an entirely subjective existence. Are you sure that outside of this dimension something has an inherent need to be created? or is it possible that those rules only apply within this dimension for our sakes as we gain knowledge of the universe around us?
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LOL. Jason, you and TheVoiceofBrian also make the assumption that something must be created based from an entirely subjective existence. Are you sure that that INSIDE of this dimension something has an inherent need to be created? I am quite complex, yet I was not "created."
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You cleverly sidestep, so is your argument that God does not exist? or is it that you cannot accept that he has always existed? at some point I would think that you would accept that SOMETHING has always existed... or do you disagree with that also?
or is your theory that nothing always existed and suddenly became something?
Do you think that it is more rational to believe the impossibility of nothing becoming something all on its own and becoming sentient all on its own? ultimately that we have singularly without choice have come to be and have somehow become masters of our own destinies without a choice? and that somehow we will hurtle through history accidentally discovering things that we had no choice but to discover because causality has defined our existence yet somehow we will continue to evolve into something more than sentient? will we become gods but never realize it because ultimately we have no ability to choose anything?
or is it more rational to believe that something always existed and was already sentient and determined to create more sentient life? That we were given free will to experience the consequences of our actions so that we could continue to experience existence at higher levels beyond the physical... which we do know to exist?
Do you think that it is rational to think that a single person in whoville could begin to define or create a system with which to define or validate or prove the existence of beings beyond the speck on which he lives? or that the rules of definition or validation could factor in the scope of those beings existence that he would attempt to validate? even the greatest effort of the entire population of whoville could not begin to grasp the concepts, the dimension, the scope of existence beyond the speck.
I used another dimension for the simple sake of example because we cannot perceive beyond our present dimension, and we do not know what greater laws would be in effect in that dimension. The assumption being that God would naturally be comfortable several dimensions higher than we exist.
this might be interesting to several of you that are following this thread... if you didn't have enough questions already... wrap your brain around this video
www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ca4miMMaCE -
Jason, I have not sidesteped. I actually addressed the flaw to your rebuttal head on by showing how you yourself make the very same assumption in your position and rebuttal. I have used the logic of person making the claim, and made another claim using that very same logic, making the same assumptions as believers. This is done so to show how the logic and assumptions fail, as you have pointed out. So you, in effect, have contributed to proving my point.
My must I have a theory? Why must I believe in something? My position of disbelief stands as nothing more than a response to the theist claim that a god exist. The theist claim a god exist, they claim to know the first cause, the prime mover. My position here is of disbelief to their claim. I for one, unlike theists, am not so bold and confident to claim to know the first cause, the prime mover.
The topic is "Do you believe in God? Do you believe in the trinity (father, son, and holy spirit)? Why or why not?" So if somebody says they do believe, it is reasonable to ask questions as to why, as the topic suggest. If I do not find those explanations convincing, then you also know why I remain in disbelief. -
Hehe... the "big bang".... I believe in the big bang, only a bit differently....
God said it, and then "bang", it happened! That's my big bang.
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@ lotus,
thats exactly why I dont believe in the christian concept of God
but i wouldnt simplify it to an emotion.
its easy to tap into hate, love, fear etc...all those emotions are readily accesible...
but it takes way more effort to tap deeper, it takes a HIGHER POWER....
and dont take the term "higher power" as literal, it can be used to define something within yourself... -
because that's how God has revealed Himself in the bible
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Belief is only an idea, it is not Truth and does not mean that God exists in any place apart from your thoughts, it is the product of indoctrination and programming. Belief in God can prevent an experience of God, that is because there is no room for any new thinking and also there is an assumption that God can be embraced by thought. The mind itself is a limited tool.
If God exists, it needs to be found and experienced and NOT believed in. When there is a genuine experience of God, the ridiculousness of belief is realized and can comfortably be discarded.-
well said...
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I believe that you can experience truth through belief in God; and in fact, an intimate relationship with God can expand our intelligence and understanding much more than a limited scientific view.
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They must find it difficult, those who take authority as the truth instead of truth as the authority. - Gerald Massey
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Just a matter of note to everybody enjoying the thread.
If you read my posts and think... wow what an idiot. welcome to the club! I read them and think that too I am at best an average guy, I didn't even finish my degree so some might say I am below average. I have never been in a debate... I hate debate. So if it looks like I am getting PWNed its probably because I have no idea what I am doing. I am not a theologian, philosopher, scientist, so I can only repeat what I learn from these people. Ultimately the only reason that I keep coming back for more is that I have no problem being humiliated, laughed at, or made fun of for what I have experienced. The fact still remains that I am completely and fully convinced that God exists because I have experienced his existence to the point that my skepticism was completely overthrown. logic, science, theology are all trumped by personal experience. We have all been at the point that regardless of what anyone says or believes we know what we experienced and no one can take that from us. I am telling you that I am so convinced of the existence of God that I would accept any consequences including torture and death, rather than deny that he existed. If you do not accept my proof then go get your own... but do not think that simply waiting around for the existence of God to be proven to you will result in anything but an intense regret.-
We are made like that. The young see no reason how or why we die. The middle aged reason with their life. The older try to abstract it with philosophical and religious concepts
And yes, I am here in BC because I can freely make a fool of myself without fear, and by doing so discover new ideas. So no regrets,just like you -
Well said, Jason. And I admire your humility and honesty.
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HE exists and if somebody denies HIS existence thn he/she should sit in a calm manner and realize the things around him/her, thing since his/her birth and all world to think whether there is existance or not... and an inteligent person will definitely find that yes there is God around us, who is OMnipresent and Omnipotent...-
So, do you believe in holy trinity?
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The Trinity exists in different faiths in different forms
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How many do you know of?
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Absolutely, Completely, Without a Doubt, Happily, and Forever...
YES!
Jesus is God, The Father is God, The Holy Spirit is God. They are One.-
Amen!
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I second that Amen!
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I think you have the wrong idea.
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LOL CT!
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man has a very limited view of God. God is also a process, mankind thinks they are the only species in the universe, there are many species. There is no absolute definition of God, God is always defined by humans according to the limitations and certain parameters set up by the mind. God is BIG and also very small, when you try and grasp God it slips away; at the same time God is smaller than the smallst thing possible and closer than a heartbeat.
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AG nice!
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You can't really pick holes in poetry cz it has poetic license
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I really believe in God..
but I'm sorry i don't believe in the trinity, coz i'm a moslem..-
Why say sorry? It's okay
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why say sorry?
You believe in what you think God is. You have a preconceived of what you have been led to believe based on your conditioning. If you knew God, you wouldn't say that you believe in God because belief is strictly an idea. It's a bit like believing there is a car parked on the corner of the street, you don't actually know whether it's true until you stick your head out the window and have a look. But once you've seen it, you'll know it's there. Other people can tell you there is a car on the corner, but some people don't speak the truth , some are crazy and some are mistaken. If you base everything on someone elses opinion you could spend years of your life believing i something that is just an idea. Someone says, there is a God and you think you are talking about the same thing, they are talking about their idea or experience and you are thinking that your idea of God is the same as theirs, when in fact there could be no similarity apart from the word God.
I know there is God, beyond a doubt, but I don't actually believe in God. Belief implies something may exist, it is a hope and nothing more. -
Ok, most of the time when people say, "I believe in God", they know that there is a god. You don't have to get all technical.
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Nikki, that's not technical.
I'm not sure about belief being enough to say there is a God. Because it always comes back to same thing, what people think is God is only an idea and nothing more.
So, where is God? -
Everywhere.
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If god has no beginning, no end, is within everything, is infinite, and has no boundaries, then god must be without edges, without contrast, and without edges to outline it, without contrast to distinguish it, god must be formless, and if god is formless then how can it be recognized, characterized, personified, and “known” at any extent at all? It cannot. This characteristic of infiniteness that theists apply to god actually cancels out god’s existence. We can just as easily say that everything is as it is without being possessed by this supernatural deity.
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morg, very good thinking
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oh God ! another God post!-
Yea, it proves there is no god.
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A "God post" proves there is no God? How does that work?
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nikkis09: I shouldn't speak for him because he has proven himself very capable of speaking for himself, but I think morganjt was joking. Just a guess. I think he was referring to the fact that the exceptionally large number of the God discussions here on the BC forums are getting very tiresome and, if there was a god, he, she or it would spare us.
That having been said, if there is a god, why does he, she or it need mortals to defend him, her or it here? A god should be able to do that himself, herself or itself. I haven't seen that so far. -
Nikki, what Joel has articulated reflects my own response.
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Joel-
About God not defending himself and needing mortals... Well I think that people defend their beliefs strongly, and that is that.
I don´t think God needs us to defend Him, it´s just our job to spread the word. What I think is God doesn´t want to defend Himself, but rather we go to Him or believe in Him ourselves.
I do understand what you both are saying though.
Also- I didn´t post this thread to defend anything. It´s just that I have a friend that only believes in God, and nothing more. I thought, how strange, you know? I know some people that only believe in the devil too (I had a good friend from school who was an Atheist and gay...and I´m Christian!) On this thread I don´t want to judge people... I may express some thoughts of mine, or comment on a answer, but that´s all -
Same question. Why does god need mortals to assume the job of spreading the word? Isn't he capable of doing that himself?
Your friend only believes in God? What a bizarre coincidence. I only believe in New England clam chowder. Well, maybe chocolate too. And of course espresso coffee. OK, so I believe in New England clam chowder, chocolate and espresso. But that's it. Well, alright, I believe in lobster. But I don't believe in anything else. Except ... So, among the many things I believe in are New England clam chowder, chocolate, espresso and lobster.
Sorry. I was channeling Monty Python's Spanish Inquisition bit there. It won't happen again. Oh yeah, I forgot. I believe in Monty Python.
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Yes, they knew God, but they wouldn't worship him as God or even give him thanks. And they began to think up foolish ideas of what God was like. The result was that their minds became dark and confused, claiming to be wise, they became utter fools instead.
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nice paraphrase! I recognized it immediately! and very fitting
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if god doesn't exist, how do you explain chocolate? -
Why, in these discussions, does it always seem like one side feels compelled to convince the other? I've never understood this, really. If I'm ever to find faith, I won't find it because someone pushed me to...I'll find it on my own. I don't push my doubts on true believers, and I would hope they wouldn't push their views on me.-
So you feel that unlike all other things we question in life, religion and ones beliefs should be exempt from critical examination and inquiry?
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No, I'm fine with that. I have a greater concern when someone tries to tell me that something I can or cannot do has to involve the intervention of a supreme being. I think we should all have questions, and share opinions...I just don't like it when, in some cases, I'm TOLD what I'm to believe.
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I agree. I am willing to discuss differences in beliefs with anyone who wants to. But I have no interest in converting anyone or having them ram their beliefs down my throat. -
I understand your sentiments.
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I agree to some extent. However, I am interested in hearing other people's beliefs and discussing them, and when people ask me what I believe and why, I tell them.
Actually, I was wondering why, in these discussions, some people feel the need to ridicule others for their beliefs.
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Yes. But not in religion. -
This thread is like chopping off a man's penis and feeding it to his dog and should be deleted.-
Wasn't glue involved, or was that a different thread?
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Hahaha!
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That was probably the John & Lorena Bobbitt thread.
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If anything, I would prefer locked instead of deleted.
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I believe in God. But I do not believe he belongs to a religion. That's superficial. Here's what I believe:
glennpaoloagoopio.blogspot.com/2009/10/god-doesnt-have-religion.html -
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Digital product and GoD?!!
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Do dyslexics believe in Dogs?
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Not sure, But I have heard of some that have had several gods slobber on them.
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I would rather have lived and believed then to die and find out that God does exist. I have gone through challenges in life where it would be impossible for me to NOT believe in the existence of a higher being. Prayers are powerful but yet unexplainable. You'd be surprised what you can get out of praying. You can read more about doctors point of view on God and the afterlife here:
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/8318894/ -
yes I believe in God. -
Do i believe there is one being/entity in this vast universe that is all seeing and all knowing.
I honestly don’t know. But then who does know, no one can prove with 100% certainty either way, without some form of leap of faith.
I used to think that GOD was an imaginary friend for adults and that we are living organisms that have evolved over hundreds of thousands of years on a planet that is lucky enough to support complex life.
Now however I’m not so sure.
Do I believe in GOD as such – no – Do I believe there is another plain of existence after our physical bodies die, I’m starting to.
Everyone has their own experiences through life on this planet; mine have led me to believe that man is inherently greedy and selfish. He is effectively raping this planet of its raw materials literally changing the face of the planet, the planet will continue as it has done for millions of years to come, we are a small blip in the time line of events, the effects man has on this planet will eventually lead to his own demise. I personally think the monetary system has much to do with why an entire planets population is too consumed with their day to day lives to stop and think for a moment, is this right and what can I do to help reverse this. This of course will never happen we are shrouded by mankind’s most successful evolved invention, civilisation, which is now so technically advanced in comparison to any generation of man prior to this, we have cable tv, the internet, a search engine that wires the globe together, you can buy anything from anywhere in the world and communicate with anyone anywhere in the world at anytime. This has come at great expense and placed huge reliance on resources that are finite
So bearing in mind that the Vatican is not only its own state but is the biggest private company in the world, and has the biggest real-estate collection, do I believe in GOD because of what I’m taught at school ? do I believe because it has been drummed into me by others who do believe , do I believe because I’m threatened that if I don’t I will be going straight to hell ?
Or do I believe because at some point throughout my journey in live I felt the presence of something I can’t touch see smell hear or taste. Or something happened that didn’t add up, usually something else happens but it didn’t and cannot be explained. Or that if you live your life following the 12 basic rules of good (the commandments), you will have a good life.
I has spent many hours wondering about the heavens, the stars, the universe, other complex life forms, trying to make sense of it all. Google gives everyone with an internet connection the chance to be as knowledgeable as some of the leading figures in mankind pre the technology age. It all boils down to one thing, you don’t know until your dead, so you’re just going to have to base your decision on what you know, what you have experienced, and have a little faith.
One interesting age we are about to enter. The ancient Mayans have a calendar called the long count calendar, which has been counting down to an event that occurs once every 26, 000 years. It takes 36 years for the event to complete. The event is described as the galactic alignment (see Precession of the Equinoxes), our sun has an orbit within our solar system we will be crossing the equator of this orbit from 2012 to about 2050, I feel quite lucky to have be born in this time.
I guess my next question is what is the sun orbiting around ?
Erm... im going stop rambling now - feels like i have written a book, sorry... eeek -
is Good-
hahahahaha
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wildcherry--way to keep the conversation going strong!
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Wow this has turned into quite a thread!
Great stuff.
Well done Nikki for starting the discussion.
Jason the Bald Guy, I like your way of thinking.
A great debate.
"Even the fool in his heart knows there is a God" - The Bible-
Petalmaker-Except for their entertainment value your comments sum up the total futility of these kind of discussions.
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Funny how in these types of threads, theists give atheists no credit in the discussion. There wouldn't be much of a discussion if it were only theists here agreeing with each other and patting each other on the back.
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God is light, light is good
yeah, God is good...
www.youtube.com/watch?v=pR4NJj040EM
That's all I have to say-
God created light, god is light... = light created light... Wait a minute, how in the... darn circular &%_~$!
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Halloween spam comment -
Chapter 1. The formation of planet Earth. The synthesis of non-living matter.
What is matter? How was it formed? How many kinds of matter are there and how do they interact?
These and many other questions have confounded man’s mind throughout his history. In order to find an answer to these questions, the human race turned its sight toward the vastness of space and to the microcosm. But the further man’s understanding advanced, the more he found himself mired in questions and problems for which he had no answers.
In order to better understand nature, man must drastically change the deepest foundations of his knowledge. It is necessary to KNOW and to UNDERSTAND the laws of formation of the universe and its development. It is necessary to comprehend the laws of life of the planets, stars, and galaxies of our universe. They are much different from what contemporary science believes.
First, I would like to point out that everything considered by contemporary man as the universe is but a small fragment of the Great Cosmos, like a single grain of sand on the beach of a boundless ocean. And that grain of sand is our home, the cradle of mankind. In order to progress further, man has to comprehend the world into which he was born.
There are an infinite number of types of primary matter in the Great Cosmos. They interact more or less among themselves or do not interact at all. If two kinds of primary matter do not interact, then nothing changes in them: they may even interpenetrate without influencing each other in any way and with nothing new appearing during the process. It is as though they do not exist for one another.
Let us define the degree of influence of one form of primary matter on another as the “coefficient of interaction.” We may then say that where there is no interaction between different kinds of primary matter the coefficient of interaction equals zero. It means that “bricks” of two different kinds of primary matter cannot fit together in the same structure, that they have no common characteristics and qualities. The coefficient of interaction is different even for two kinds of primary matter in separate points in space, because space itself is not uniform in structure.
Only when interaction takes place within a defined volume of space is it possible to talk about the mutual interactions of primary matters. In principle, there are volumes of space where there is maximal interaction between primary matters and others where it is impossible. Also there are certain regions of space where primary matters interact only partially by means of one or another shared quality. (Fig. 6a)
Where there is a maximum interaction of two primary matters (let us define them as A and B) a total merging of these primary matters results in a new, hybrid form — AB. Merging is possible only within the limits of a volume where all their parameters are the same. Different kinds of primary matter existing within the same non-uniform space will be influenced differently by that space: it exerts a larger influence and change on one kind of primary matter, and a smaller influence and change on another. Non-uniformity in space changes the qualitative structure of primary matters, thus creating conditions for their mergence and for the formation of new qualities.
Thus, within the boundaries of a non-uniform space where conditions exist for the merging of the two kinds of primary matters, A and B, a qualitatively new kind of matter forms — the hybrid AB (Fig. 6a).
In turn AB has an influence on the non-uniformity of the space where it originated: the non-uniform space fills up with the primary matters and is transformed. Non-uniformity constitutes a distortion of space, leading to a change of dimension within the limits of that non-uniformity, as compared with neighboring regions of space.
Thus, a change in spatial dimensions within a certain quantitative range leads to conditions for the merging of two kinds of primary matters. In order for two primary matters to merge, a dimension must change as follows:
∆L = 0.020203236... (Fig. 6 and 6a).
Similarly, for the merging of three kinds of primary matter, the dimension of space, ∆L, must change once again. Primary matter cannot merge using only a part of itself. Only entire primary matters can merge. Just as two and a half living men cannot exist, but only two or three whole men, neither can there be the merging of portions of primary matters.
Let us define a third kind of primary matter as C. As a result of the merging of three kinds of primary matter within the limits of a certain volume of space (for convenience let us consider it a sphere), a qualitatively new hybrid, ABC, forms, occupying a smaller volume than hybrid AB (Fig. 7). Moreover, the spheres have precise boundaries, within which the dimension of space is uniform. The conditions for the merging of one more kind of primary matter, D, arises when the dimension of space inside a non-uniformity again changes by the factor ∆L = 0.020203236. A qualitatively new hybrid form, ABCD, appears (Fig. 8). It will occupy a sphere of smaller volume than that of ABC.
With the next change, ∆L, in the dimension of space inside a non-uniformity, conditions appear for the merging of one more kind of primary matter, E with ABCD. A qualitatively new form, ABCDE, appears (Fig. 9).
Following a subsequent change, ∆L, in the dimension of space inside a non-uniformity, conditions appear for the merging of yet another form of primary matter, F, with ABCDE. A qualitatively new form, ABCDEF, emerges (Fig. 10).
After further changes in ∆L in the same non-uniformity of space, conditions arise for the merging of another form of matter, G, with ABCDEF. A qualitatively new form, ABCDEFG, is thereby produced (Fig. 11).
Thus, with each subsequent change in the dimension of non-uniform space, ∆L, the seven kinds of primary matter forming our universe, consecutively merge, creating at the same time six material spheres or bodies of qualitatively different composition and size.
The inside sphere, formed by all seven kinds of primary matter, is the PHYSICALLY SOLID PLANET, EARTH, a substance that has four aggregate forms — solid, liquid, gas, and plasma. Different aggregate forms appear as a result of the fluctuation of dimensions less than ∆L. Moving away from the physical center of non-uniformity, we have the following picture: a sphere formed by the merging of six kinds of primary matter, is called the “ETHERIC” or “EPHEMERAL” sphere; the merging of five kinds of primary matter produces the “ASTRAL” sphere; four kinds of primary matter constitutes the FIRST “MENTAL” sphere; three kinds of primary matter, the SECOND MENTAL sphere; and two kinds of primary matter, the THIRD MENTAL sphere (Fig.12).
The physical sphere of Earth shares the largest number of qualities with the etheric sphere, which is closest to it, and shares the smallest number of qualities with the third mental sphere, which is farthest from it. Mutual or shared qualities of the different spheres create certain conditions for their interaction. The amount of interaction between two spheres depends upon the number of qualities they share.
The amount of interaction between spheres can be defined as their “coefficient of interaction”: α1; α2; α3; α4; α5.
α1 > α2 > α3 > α4 > α5 (Fig.12a)
where:
α1 — is the coefficient of interaction between the physically solid and etheric spheres.
α 2 –is the coefficient of interaction between the physically solid and astral spheres.
α 3 –is the coefficient of interaction between the physically solid and first mental spheres.
α 4 –is the coefficient of interaction between the physically solid and second mental spheres.
α 5 –is the coefficient of interaction between the physically solid and third mental spheres.
We then define planet Earth, as consisting of six concentric spheres, each interposed within another, the whole constituting an UNBROKEN UNITY. This fact is essential for understanding many phenomena and mysteries of both living and non-living matter, such as the evolution of life on our planet. Following the completion of the qualitative structure of Earth, non-uniformity in that region of space is neutralized (Fig. 12b).
Further describes the actual appearance of living matter (viruses, animals and etc)... At the origin of the Earth and the universe is nothing divine... All these are natural processes...-
Interesting quote, Balor. Where did you obtain it? I'm just curious: do you own the copyright for that chapter, or is it public domain/free license?
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I was curious about the source of this as well.
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PM me your E-mail and I`ll send your this info...
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If it is your material or you own the copyright, I wouldn't mind reading it; otherwise, I'd rather have you just send me to the source. As a writer, I take copyrights very seriously.
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This information has copyright but it`s distributed free. For a more detailed study, visit this site levashov.info/English/index-eng.html
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There probably is a god because that is what my parents, family, and friends, told me. Actually, there MUST be a god so that I can live forever in either heaven or hell, doesn’t matter, as long as I can live forever. I don’t have evidence that god exist, but It is necessary that I believe in him as it comforts my fear of the unknowns in life. God fills in all the blanks and that makes me feel really good! God is love, and my relationship with god and his love is like that of a pen and a hamburger, totally unrelated but it is there nonetheless. There probably is a god because it is self-evident, just look around you, look under a rock and he is there, and sometimes you will find a snail, he created that snail too.
There probably is a god because I exist, as does life, the planet, and the universe. This is his sandbox, and we are his sand castles, individually we are the grains of sand he created to worship his greatness. Wow, I really love god for creating me to worship him, I have nothing better to do with my life. What would I do if he didn’t create me? Some people can not see god because they are too smart, they only follow reason, logic, and their physical brain. They need to open their spirit to god and they too will be blessed with his creative power. This website is a testimony to the fact that there probably is a god. How can all these people be wrong about god? The bible says god is real and I believe that because it tells me to believe it. God created man to write the bible so that other men could read it and know to worship him. Yea, there probably is a god because I have felt his presence and experienced his love. Praise the Lord, the almighty father of heaven and earth.-
Just to clarify, you are talking about the Flying Spaghetti Monster, the one true God, right?
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Of course! Is there any other?
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@morgan: I'm very sorry to hear that and, as a Christian, will be the first to confess the simple absurdity of that statement. For starters, the Lord really isn't in to the whole Machiavellian thing, as can be assumed from His life. I hope someday God can come in to your life, that you may see the beauty which drove so many to tell your relatives about this faith so they could abuse it and trample all over it in the worst way possible.
@JK:
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very sorry to hear what? absurdity of what statement?
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@morgan: "Actually, there MUST be a god so that I can live forever in either heaven or hell, doesn’t matter, as long as I can live forever. I don’t have evidence that god exist, but It is necessary that I believe in him as it comforts my fear of the unknowns in life."
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whats so absurd about it?
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You're presuming something is true off of your needs and desires.
God found me, not me Him. And yes, there is room for doubt as there always is, but then again, I could doubt the existence of everybody on BC too!
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The person who goes by the id of "morganti" said I quote "I don’t have evidence that god exist"
God gave all the "evidence" needed by the Death & Resurrection of his Son!!-
Zombies provide good entertainment value. I'll give you that. Zombies as evidence of a supernatural being... not so much.
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Hey balor, you said "Do you want to be a slave? Personally,
I do not."
Do you not know you are already a slave to the World, the Flesh and the Devil?
But who the Lord set free is free indeed!!-
Oh good grief. That quote came from a very different time when slaves were the only people in the world doing anything useful while master sat in his little tent drinking his wine, bossing people around, and being worthless (though he often times earned this by way of military service), hence the fact that it was considered desirable to be slave-like even if you did not envy them in the least. Further, a biblical time slave actually did have legal rights - very different from the plantation slaves of the Americas.
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To morgantj just so you know, zombie don't fly!!
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okay...? and?
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Yes, yes.
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oh God!! oh God!!!
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Hey morgantj "okay...? and"
Jesus sailed out into the blue with disciples gazing upward? the same blue sky he is about to return in!!
Zombies don't do that
But the Son of the Living God does!!!-
If a bat or bird were to be raised from the dead, they would be flying zombies. So some zombies do do that. Jesus apparently is one of them.
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Someone talk about me?
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@morgan: Do zombies perform miracles?
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yeah...they sleep walk without falling
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@sorcerer: That's nothing! My uncle could do that!
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haha lol
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They are the walking dead, isn't that pretty much a miracle in itself? Also, if they bite you, don't they pass on the miracle of the living dead to their victim? Not to mention, you could shoot them several times with a gun, but they just keep on going like the energize bunny. That is a miracle. Jesus is the king Zombie.
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