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I am aware of that, but their should be a line. In South Africa we also have freedom of speech but distinguish between freedom of speech and hate speech. If what you say could cause harm or the potential of physical harm to a group or individual you are held accountable!

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6/08/09

intarso

well, the constitution of the united states protects free speech - even speech that most rational people disagree with.
6/11/09

rfburnhertz

Define hate speech.

I'm a Christian, I believe homosexuality is a sin.
Is it hate speech for me to say so?

Should a pastor be allowed to say from the pulpit that homosexuality is a sin?

6/08/09

With free speech I guess you then have to take the good with the bad then in the USA.

So people like the Phelps family will get away with their harassment, hate speech and harassment indefinitely.

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6/08/09

jafabrit

No, they don't get away with it, they face a lot of consequences for their hateful rhetoric, lawsuits, criminal charges (found guilty a number of times), faced counter demonstrations and in some situations are chased away. They are banned from the UK.

6/08/09

jafabrit

I didn't expect you would get any other response than the delusional one you got.
One of the more effective methods of holding people accountable for their hate speech or hateful actions is to sue them.
www.43rdstateblues.com/?q=node/3675

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6/08/09

cuteptaguy

They have been sued before, still it didn't stop them!
6/08/09

intarso

with people like the WBC, their convictions are not dependent on money. Their lives are completely built around their crusade of hate - short of locking them up without contact with the outside world in a prison, there really is no way to stop them from voicing their beliefs.

However, the more time they have to spend in a courtroom, the better perhaps...
6/08/09

jafabrit

which is why I said to you an email campaign is not going to have any impact, waste of your resources and time.

I agree with timetheif, talking about them is important. Combating their hate, supporting efforts to sue or charge them, or asking towns that give them permits not to/or charge a higher permit fee (security costs) is much better approach.
Just my humble opinion.

6/08/09

timethief

IMHO the leaders and members of the "church" in question are deluded and completely off base. I do consider what I have read of their authorship to be "hate literature". I also consider their actions to be a hypocritical demonstration of hatred conducted under the guise of so-called "Love Crusades".

Please continue to speak your truth to everyone, and especially to those in positions of political power and influence. It's important that Americans consider their past, present and future. America is not a nation that was founded with the intent of creating a Christian theocracy. The citizens need to see that an actual separation between church and state in their country has not been achieved and that it must be achieved in order to create a better situation for upcoming generations. That change cannot and will not happen unless or until Americans choose to vote for representatives who can focus on similarities, celebrate differences, and clearly state and act on their opposition to allowing hatefulness, which is a threat to the social and legal fabric of what aims to be a democratic republic, wherein human rights are respected and protected by law.

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6/08/09

cuteptaguy

That's why in my event page on Facebook I asked everyone to write to their senators as well.

6/08/09

nburmandesign

Please don't give these people any more publicity...They do not represent the church as a whole - just their own deluded and dark little corner.
God, in no way, hates anyone - If they read the Bible they would realise that.

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6/08/09

amrhima

God does prohibit homosexuality in the Christian and Muslim views, and these people are not making it up, religion as a whole thus is a threat to freedom and it has to be taken as such.
6/08/09

timethief

I'd like to respectfully state that - enough is enough! During the span of my life (1/2 century) I have heard over and over from mainstream Christians that we ought to sweep the dirt under the carpet and ignore the activities of these deluded minorities.

I believe I am intelligent enough to know who is walking the talk and it's the majority of religious people. However, history demonstrates that IMO sticking our heads in the sand and ignoring the zealots on the fringe would most likely be an act of extreme stupidity that will be regretted in hindsight.

During a war wherein the highest military budgets ever created were simultaneously paralleled by the highest poverty rates ever in America, we have just seen the highest amount of money ever raised in America by religious organizations used to fund a hateful and discriminatory initiative to remove the right for same sex people to marry in California and it succeeded!

Along with many others the very same church was a major contributor to that campaign which was funded by way of "individual" donation to circumvent any legal repercussions. That entire movement of churches and religious people turned their back on the using their tax free funds for charitable and community building purposes such as feeding the hungry, and healing and housing the sick.

Instead, they chose to protect a word "marriage" and concoct a deceptive revisionary history of that paternalistic institution wherein child brides were the status quo, and women had no legal rights when it came to selecting husbands. Their fallacious campaign material is a shameful example of what can happen when we listen to those who say we ought to sweep dirt under carpets and ignore the extreme behaviors of religious minorities.

Instead of the majority sticking our heads in the sand and/or averting their eyes when they witness evil, I believe we ought to expose it to the full light of truth. The truth is that all discrimination is based on class and creating a class of "gay citizens," who are denied the same rights that issue to all other citizens is shameful and it has to stop.

6/08/09

jafabrit

It is also recognized as a "hate" group by the southern poverty law center.
www.splcenter.org/index.jsp

There is a section on the left "what can you do"
www.splcenter.org/center/help.jsp

ps. you can also add to the tolerance map
www.splcenter.org/center/petitions/standstrong/

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6/08/09

amrhima

Some people find a threat in anyone who's free enough not to abide by their laws which they want to impose on the world, and so we have to fight for our freedom, these people are not free to spread hate because by doing that they are stepping on other people's freedom.

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6/08/09

nburmandesign

timethief - yes there is a case for that. I agree. I certainly do NOT agree with sticking your head in the sand. I am glad that the fringe are exposed for what they are. I guess I have seen enough of them getting free publicity.
I don't agree with crossing the road when you see someone hurt. I don't think you should not speak out against injustice.
I think most people are intelligent, like you timethief, and know when a whole gang of people is just a bunch of thugs.
A better way to deal with it is to confront people one on one. I firmly believe in a grassroots revolution, where you speak up against your neighbour when he makes a racist/derogative/prejudiced comment. I just hate to see one more inward link to garbage like that.
But in all, timethief, I agree. Expose it.
And then, rather than curse the darkness, shine a light.

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6/08/09

jeremyjanson

No. God hates no one who lives. Now as for whether he hates the action or not, there are one or two small passages in the bible that, translated to english (that's key), would seem to say homosexuality is a sin, but:

1) They may actually be speaking about the Greek practice of men having sex with boys (catamites, the other translation.) It also may be referring to the greek practice of disgracing your wife by overtly lying with another man (the other interpretation of the section in Deuteronomy.)

2) If you follow the holy spirit, I think we, as Christians, can all trust you to do right by your life one way or the other, and if not, well that's between you and the holy spirit.

and 3) The homophobes have done worse in any case, (the Golden Rule is one of 2 great commandment, while homosexuality didn't even make it to the mosaic 10.)

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9/03/09

ReneMonroe

An interesting post here. When you mention the translation from greek is key, it is also true with regards tot he translation from Hebrew. For example, Leviticus 18:22 which speaks on the subject of homosexuality, the hebrew word that abomination is translated from is tōʻēḇā which means in english that something is against ritual which in contrast does not mean that what ever tōʻēḇā is being used to describe is innately immoral.

I simply love how "Christians" throw about the word abomination without understanding what it was translated from. There are about 7 different hebrew words in original text that all have been translated to the english word abomination, all of which only 1, the hebrew word za'am actually speaks to something being truly immoral.

Just an interesting thought I had.

6/08/09

ArsenicCookies

A tad off topic but I have crossed paths with them over their treatment of our military and boycotting of soldier funerals. They are ruthless people and one of the major reasons that US Soldier caskets are not to be shown (they were making them into signs with horrible slogans). Their funding was already pulled as a non profit so infact they are no longer a church. They are recognized as a cult and when you cross them, I know from experience they will systematically attack everything about you. I hope your personal info is protected, they are known for sending some jacked up stuff to people who contact them

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6/08/09

davedol

I think we have nothing to fear from free speech, even if it is vile. So what if someone hates? Opposing intolerance actually means we have to allow anyone his or her say. By letting haters vent, it allows them to vent in a responsible way and not with violence. Or am I being too optimistic about human nature?

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6/08/09

jeremyjanson

Not just that but keeping it in the open where it can be observed and responded to helps all of society, incluidng the people they hope to afflict by keeping tabs on them and responding to their message and revealing them for they really are.

6/08/09

M'k. This is what I do know.....#1 its none of my business if ur gay or lesbo
#2 the bible does say a man shouldn't lay with another man.
#3 it says that,BUT jesus died on the cross,for u. If its wrong he will forgive u for it. Just like he will forgive me for the things I have done. We are all human. We all were born into sin. The awesome ything is jesus doesn't care,just like your parents shouldn't care when u do something bad. HE LOVES U UNCONDITIONALLY! Just like ur parents are supposed to love you.

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6/08/09

jeremyjanson

The quote from Deuteronomy says "a man should not lie with another man AS HE DOES a woman." Now that "As he does" is suspicious, in the traditional interpretation that entire phrase would be excess verbage, and to me that suggests it is responding to an older practice of the ancient greeks that we don't understand today because in a modern society, you publicly lay with another man you get smacked and it is you who get disgraced rather then your wife. The quote in Corinthians may actually translate to "catamites." In any case, follow the holy spirit and no wrong will befall your mind.
6/08/09

dsriharsha

@holly are you suggesting that we have a free pass to sin as much as we can because in the end, Jesus who loves me will save me from it all?

6/08/09

Sam1982

God also apparently hates solja boy - i've seen the photos of the picketers!!
But seriously, who are they to tell other people how to live their lives.
I wonder how they would feel if I ran around making comments like "God hates christians", simply because MY God told me so. Is my comment any more correct that any of the comments that start with "god hates...".
Its my understanding that God wouldnt and shouldnt and doesnt hate anything.

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6/08/09

jeremyjanson

This reminds me of a passage I just read in Romans:

2:23 :

"For you who make your boast in the law, do you dishonor God through breaking the law?

"For 'the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you' as it is written."

(King James Version)

6/08/09

davedol

I will quote what Nostradamus had to say about homosexuality. Quatrain 3, verse 1:

After combat and naval battle,
The great gay in his highest belfry:
The gay adversary will become pale with fear,
Putting the great Ocean in dread.

Nostradamus supports the idea of gays in the military. Can anyone argue with Nostradamus? So it is written!

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6/08/09

Like I said earlier, God loves and 4gives anyone and everyone! NO STRINGS ATTACHED. That is an awesome feeling to no that no matter who hates or dislikes you. No matter if u are alone or not. Someone will always have ur back no matter what.

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6/09/09

jeremyjanson

He does, but you are to love him, and it's not a matter of "oh no, I commited this sin I don't love him anymore" (anyone who suggests that theology should be bumped on the head with a heavy blunt object) but a matter of because you love him you will let him in to your heart to write his laws upon it.

The one unpardonable sin is to not love your Lord.
6/09/09

HollytheHousewife

You are right about loving god,but he would never not love you. He created you. As a matter of fact we were his master piece. He loves u no matter what,that's why he wants us to love him
6/09/09

HollytheHousewife

Oh,and jeremy it is written somewhere in the bible that if we all turned our backs on god,the rocks would cry out their praise

6/09/09

dsriharsha

Eh? Is it or is it not a No Strings Attached Unconditional Love?

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6/09/09

jeremyjanson

Not "No Strings Attached." For one thing, he couldn't love the whole human race if it was NSA. But it's a different set of obligations then you're used to. He'll forgive any unreversible decision, but the greatest decision of your life is what determines your fate, though I suppose one could say that you have the keys to the jailhouse door. As for Unconditional Love, in the same sense as a jealous husband.
6/09/09

dsriharsha

If you are stuck with a Jealous Husband, wouldn't you rather be single?
6/09/09

jeremyjanson

He's also an awesome and giving husband, a liberating husband, he asks for one thing and I give it. One of these days you're just gonna have to learn to love.
6/09/09

voodooKobra

But this guy sounds untrusting and clingy.
6/09/09

jeremyjanson

vK: Distrusting, far from it. He's very trusting - he sees your heart, how could he distrust. As for clingy, nah....
6/09/09

voodooKobra

Then there's something else. He's hiding something. Why else would Mr. "Look at me I can do the logically impossible" want humans to even acknowledge his existence? It's self aggrandizing!
6/09/09

jeremyjanson

vK: Because we bring something to the universe that cannot otherwise exist, imperfection, free-will with limitations, turbulence, struggle, and all the heroism that accompanies it. That makes us special, and because we are free, we are the only thing he can really have, as everything else is already at his command without breaking it's integrity.
6/09/09

dsriharsha

now I get it.. everything is already under his control except humans and their free will, so he can't force them to love him..
But he will punish us if we don't love him so finally, we *have* to love him anyway..

what a wonderful plan.. Applause
6/09/09

jeremyjanson

dsrihansa,

No. But to not love God is to either not have faith in him or not love life, and that which doesn't love life must be destroyed, while that which doesn't have faith in him cannot find justice.
6/09/09

dsriharsha

jerome janice,

how does not loving God equate to not loving life?
I don't love God.. and I surely love life more than anything else in the world
6/09/09

jeremyjanson

To love god is to love life AND have faith in god. You have 1), but you lack 2). Thus you cannot find justice.
6/09/09

dsriharsha

@janice,

vK: Distrusting, far from it. He's very trusting - he sees your heart, how could he distrust. As for clingy, nah..
but you said he was a jealous husband? How can he be trusting and not clingy but jealous? can you define the concept of a jealous husband?

Thus you cannot find justice.
So, if an innocent man is wrongfully convicted, and all the evidence points to his innocence, he is still punished because he doubts the judge? Rubbish..

that aside, what exactly is the "justice" you are talking about?

but now we are steering dangerously offtopic from the OP.. I would rather we continue this discussion on another thread.. or in this group : www.blogcatalog.com/group/religious-debate-and-discussions
6/09/09

jeremyjanson

dsrihansa,

1. No one is innocent, period. The difference is that we take on the cross and purify ourselves, thus taking responsibillity for our own crimes, something we can only truly do through the spirit, and from that we learn justice. God does not grade on a curve.

2. Don't worry about being off-topic, that's why our posts are indented.

3. A Jealous husband is one who becomes furious when he sees you in the arms of another man, and what's really frustrating is when that other man doesn't even exist. It's not a matter of being clingy, it's a matter of being passionate.
6/09/09

HollytheHousewife

It is no strings attached! How many people do you know that would volunteer to be beat into "minced meat" and then decide to be nailed and CRUCIFIED,for people who haven't been born yet.

That is unconditional love if you asked me. He will love u no matter what,but to get into heaven you have to accept that love.
6/09/09

jeremyjanson

@Holly:

It's love for sure in any case.
6/09/09

HollytheHousewife

@ jeremy

Exactly that's what I said jesus loves you unconditionally! (No strings attached) its up 2 u 2 love him back
6/09/09

dsriharsha

@Janice and Holly

would you please come to an understanding among yourself regarding the unconditionality?

If it is unconditional love, then I don't have to love this God person back, yet I will be loved and served justice, because what loving being would end my life or be unjust?

6/09/09

Theresa111

Theologists make up their own rules 80% of the time. I do believe Jesus said to love one another as I have loved you. Most of the other stuff is political. Love everyone and let God sort out the rest. Our directive is just to love. Period.

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6/09/09

jeremyjanson

No. Our directive is to "Love, hope, have faith, be brave, work hard, and explore." I do believe Leon Tolstoys premise that "to love God is to love life" although I would add "and have faith in him" to the end of that. Also, the idea that the bible is pacifist is a myth, there are directives for violence as sometimes that's the only loving thing to do; someone who lets innocent women and children be butchered is not loving, neither is someone who lets their country be conquered.

6/09/09

voodooKobra

My imaginary friend Larry hates people who hate people. Your move, Westboro.

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6/09/09

rcal4848

cuteptaguy i am god, and I think ur pretty, me want to possibly spend myself in u. possibly I show u real respect and withstand myself and care for u, and than spend myself in u

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6/09/09

I personally find it shameful that any group of people can use religion or the church to justify any act of discrimination. Whether it's Christians, Jews, Muslims etc. Anyone can interpret religious scripture to justify acts of discrimination these days. The Phelps are doing it to justify their hate speech, terrorist groups are doing it to justify their holy war. It's absurd!

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6/09/09

aningeniousname

I don't think what they do is really an issue, everyone knows they are publicity seeking mentalists.
I doubt it is spreading any sort of hatred because as soon as people see what they are doing and hear what they are saying it immediately brands them as lunatics.

6/09/09

@ cuteguy, if christians are using their religion to spread hate,then they are not true christians. Only jesus is.

Don't get me wrong I believe what the bible says about homosexuality. I also believe that you can be forgiven for your sin.

It really doesn't matter what I think or believe in tho. It omly matters what you belive in.
None of us have the right to judge anyone,bc we all were born into sin

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6/09/09

SweetViolet

@holly: I believe what the bible says about homosexuality. I also believe that you can be forgiven for your sin.

That's like saying I can be forgiven for being female or my husband can be forgiven for being non-white.

If a belief system is such that people need forgiveness for who they are instead of what they do, there is something really, really wrong with it.
6/09/09

HollytheHousewife

@ violet
Being gay is not "who u are". I mean even the gays say that isn't what defines a person. Your sexual preference is what you do. I can choose to have sex with whom ever I want. I can't choose to be male or female,black or white. You are trying to twist my words.
6/11/09

Floormodel

Jesus wasn't a Christian, only those who followed him can be.

6/09/09

Qaisar

i dont say anything about it

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6/09/09

JonnyDunMind

I believe that if God hates fags, he wouldnt have made gay people. Seroiously, if you start forming sexzual thoughts and they involve the same sex, you cant help it. If he didnt want it that way, he wouldnt have made it that way.

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6/09/09

wtfwjd

The problem is that Fred Phelps was a lawyer (a civil rights lawyer, no less. Isn't it funny how morally complicated some people are?), so he is very good at going exactly as far as he can without technically breaking the law. In a way, I think that's a good thing. He does not incite the members of his cult to acts of physical violence, for which we should be grateful.

Of course, there are those who consider what he does an act of emotional violence. I have to say, though, that I think the one thing he does more effectively than anything else is make a spectacle of himself. In doing so, he makes the religious right in general look just a little bit worse than it would if he weren't around. In short, he's doing us a favor.

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6/09/09

I have noticed that wtfwjd

In the USA nothing can be done to stop them due to the laws there - freedom of speech.

However, in South Africa our Constitution makes a clear distinction between freedom of speech and hate speech.

Currently complaints are being sent to the South African Human Rights Commission (SAHRC) to have their website barred from South Africa. The SAHRC has a legal right to investigate the matter and if they rule the website to contain hate speech it could be barred from our country.

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6/09/09

wtfwjd

But what would banning the website accomplish? If you prevent people from knowing their enemy, how will they arm themselves?

(I mean that metaphorically, of course. I do not condone violence.)

I find censorship of any kind to be a little bit scary. Sure, if Fred Phelps manages to go to South Africa to spew his hate, he should be charged with hate speech. But I would think a country that used to keep very different information from its people would be more cautious about censorship now.
6/09/09

jeremyjanson

Honestly I find that horrible. Why stop with homophobes? Why not go on to those great disturbers of the peace known as gay rights activists afterwards?
6/10/09

jafabrit

I have to agree too about the censorship. You cannot confront and deal with these type of people if people are kept ignorant of who they are and what they do. Hiding or shielding them from public scrutiny will not make them go away, or stop their actions. How can a society make policy/social decisions (legal, barring them visas etc) regarding them if they don't know who they are?

6/09/09

IntoTheAzureSea

I have nothing against homosexuals but sometimes I wish homosexual men would just be less "expressive" about their sexual preferences.

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6/09/09

MissSuzie

The same could be said about the heterosexual male. They can be downright perverted at times.
6/10/09

IntoTheAzureSea

I mean, I have a gay male friend and he is so explicit in his sexual advances, conquests and whatever exploits he has that sometimes I wonder if he gets off by just talking dirty to me.
6/10/09

jeremyjanson

@ITAS: Of course he gets off at talking dirty to you. Plus they're all from San Francisco - those Westerners are a bad influence on them.

But seriously, courtesy is something certainly needed more in our society at all levels, and in general, I think gay people are actually a little better then most in the more important things, like hospitality, driving automobiles and general social grace. I think we can forgive them a little perversion.

6/09/09

Agit8r

Anthropomorphic Idolaters!

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6/09/09

I could care less what homosexuals are doing. Its their business. This is my point.
I have actually said this to a good friend of mine who is muslim.

We all bleed the same color. It does not matter if u are a john j. Mack or a bumb on the street. It doesn't matter if your white or black,gay or straight,muslim or christian.......we are all the same. There is no difference. We will all end up 6 feet under no matter what. So who cares what someone else's religious or sexual preference. I sure as hell don't.
I don't condem anyone for what they believe. That is what my faith has taught me. I am noone to judge anyone,even if I disagree with them

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6/09/09

Epicharis

I must confess that I really wasn't expecting that from you, and I feel the need to apologise for prejudging you. It would be nice if more people took that kind of view.

6/09/09

Rozie818

Is that where they get the sign in the intro to True Blood from?

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6/09/09

dbowles1017

I think it is.

6/09/09

??? @ rosie

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6/09/09

mikeny07

It is hard to manage it though.

You either have a society where almost anything goes, or you allow mostly nothing at all and little freedom.

In a place that allows mostly everything, things in gray areas are usually allowed.

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6/09/09

Rozie818

@HTHW
During The Into Of HBO's True Blood There is a Sign That Says "God Hates Fangs"

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6/09/09

Fangs???

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6/09/09

Rozie818

Yes fangs
The Show is based on Vampires living among us, True Blood is what they drink so they don't feast on humans. (well not supposed to) and like most bias bastards, there are people that refuse to accept them, and religion heads are some of those - hence, "God Hates Fangs"

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6/09/09

Kinda. Like twilight huh?,that's kinda silly to compare god to religion 2 vampires,but its a kinda chill anaology

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6/09/09

dbowles1017

NO!!!! True Blood is nothing like twilight. Please do not mention the two together ever again.
6/09/09

HollytheHousewife

well excuse muahh? Care 2 explain mr. Man
6/09/09

voodooKobra

Twilight is a story about a 108 year-old pedophile and his 17 year-old ditzy girlfriend.
6/09/09

JonnyDunMind

ROFL voodooKobra. Haha, I laughed pretty damn hard

The strange thing is, in the UK, a 108 year old and a 17 year old isnt considered pedophillia
6/09/09

voodooKobra

Well, she's technically not prepubescent. I'll grant you that. However, it is still pretty damn creepy.

6/09/09

Good lord its hard tp run and txt @ the same time

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6/09/09

wagerwitch

You know what...

I Don't CARE that you're gay... I just want you to know that.

It isn't important, except like me saying - I'm married.

I mean - it is important in some issues - but truly it is NO BIG DEAL.

I wish you'd join other conversations and stuff - because I think you have a lot to offer the community beyond your sexuality and your partner choice.

Being GAY is NOT ALL ---- ALL ---- that you are.

You're also a caring person, a funny person, an artist, a writer - and so much more.

What else do you have to offer us?

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6/09/09

wagerwitch

About this wacky church...

Anyone who gives them ANY credit - discredits the human race.

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6/10/09

brexians

where is god?

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6/10/09

Qaisar

i dont know it

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6/10/09

The South African Human Rights Commission received numerous complaints today and yesterday regarding the Phelps website, it may just be banned from South Africa under our anti-hate speech laws.

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6/10/09

Wish the USA had similar laws to protect their citizens from hate speech!

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6/10/09

Agit8r

at first I thought it said "Faq's"

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6/10/09

Friday13

Well, there´s this:
www.400monkeys.com/God/

6/10/09

greencurmudgeon

Just a word of advice - don't post their link, because that increases their Google Ranking.

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6/11/09

abstractedmikey

Free speech is a good thing.. with good rules in place like this entitlement/privledge.. People just have to abuse this don't they.. One thing I hve always believed in is street justice they will get what is coming to them.. Sure free speech is the law although no-one ever said that free speech didn't have its consiquences..

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6/11/09

Anok

I'm pretty sure that the Phelps and Co church will succumb to social progress one way or the other. At some point, society is going to change around them so much that their heads will implode from their anger/fear/hatred.

EIther that or they will eventually starve to death in their bunker, hiding out in fear from all of the wickedness around them, they will fail to exit their compound to get the much need supplies for survival. And even if they do get supplies, inbreeding or lack of procreation will do them in, anyway.

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6/11/09

jeremyjanson

You do realize Anok that pointlessly riling up very large numbers of people is a great source of income for the collection plate? No, they won't "succomb," but they will blaspheme their own name, earning themselves a place of disgrace.
6/11/09

Anok

My understanding is that their church is very small, and consists mainly of family and a few friends. So I'm not sure how they will increase the amount given at collections time when their regular members are already pretty riled up.

But they will succumb one way or another. Society moves forward, and as it does they will either become so fanatic that they do themselves in, or become so terrified or angry at the world around them they will close themselves off, thus dying off after a generation or two, if they don't get themselves jailed or killed in the process.
6/11/09

jafabrit

According to the Anti Defamation League they have 71 members and their primary goal is to generate publicity to promote their message.
www.adl.org/special_reports/wbc/default.asp

I agree with Anok, I don't see how they will increase their ranks or income (they owe millions in a lawsuit).
6/11/09

Anok

It's hard to garner support when you blatantly hate everyone

I mean, they don't just have the godhatesfags website, but also godhatescatholics, godhatesislam, godhatesprotestants etc and so forth.

They hate every other rleigion out there, and specifically hate homosexuals, jews, and african americans.

They'll create their own end soon enough.
6/11/09

wtfwjd

Anok - I agree that the Westboro Baptist Church is a horrible and fallacious organization, but in the interest of accuracy I have to point out that the one demographic they do not hate is African Americans. Fred Phelps was, oddly, a big civil rights lawyer back in the 60s. He still maintains that African Americans should have equal rights under the law, as they do in God's eyes.

Aside from that, though, he's a total creep.
6/11/09

jafabrit

"I agree that the Westboro Baptist Church is a horrible and fallacious organization, but in the interest of accuracy I have to point out that the one demographic they do not hate is African Americans."

You might want to reconsider that wtfwjd:
www.adl.org/special_reports/wbc/wbc_on_blacks.asp
6/12/09

Anok

Yeah, Phelps and Co have moved beyond any shred of decency that he may have had in the 60's.
6/12/09

jeremyjanson

@Anok: yes, but there are much larger churches in Atlanta that do exactly the same thing.

@wtfwjd: Fred Phelps reminds me of the nameless assassin from "Serenity."
6/13/09

wtfwjd

Well, I'm glad to hear he's no longer pro-civil rights, because the moral ambiguity was killing me. It's much easier for my brain if he just stays totally evil.

Anyway, Fred Phelps is annoying, his interpretation of the Scripture is offensive, and he's an absolutely horrible man. That said, he's ineffectual. As I've said, all he does is make the "more reasonable" branches of the Christian right look worse than they otherwise would, because he's basically a parody of them. I do not see him as a threat at all.

6/11/09

TigerXtrm

Because you live in a country where religion and politics are separate...

...oh wait.

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6/11/09

TigerXtrm

Also, I don't get the topic starter. You're one of those 'Proud to be gay' persons, I get that much. And judging by your picture I'd say you're also one of those gay guys who you can spot in a group from two miles away.

So my question to you is this: Why the hell are you making such a fuss about you being gay? Why do you have a blog about it? If it is to point out that you're normal like everybody else you're doing a terrible job at it, just so you know.

Do you really expect to be taken seriously with a name like 'CutePTAguy'? That's about as delicate as 'SexyDDcheerleader'.

Also, arrogance. Can you be it any more? You post a picture of yourself literally in every article. I mean, SHIT, you are just full of yourself aren't you?

I have absolutely nothing against gay people and I hate Phelps, his organization, the church and everything they stand for. But you people, the gay community as you like to be called (so much for being the same as everyone else if you're starting your own community, you're not welcome in our hetero community, just saying), can be so damn hypocritical...

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6/11/09

Friday13

SexyDDcheerleader will not be happy about your comment.
6/11/09

TigerXtrm

SexyDDcheerleader would probably have to little braincells to read that many letters. Luckily someone with a name like that has enough cells in other areas to make up for that.
6/12/09

jafabrit

"But you people, the gay community as you like to be called (so much for being the same as everyone else if you're starting your own community, you're not welcome in our hetero community, just saying), can be so damn hypocritical..."

wow! you people! Lots of people have groups communities based on gender, interests, beliefs, interests. What's with the personal attack on the OP? sheesh!
6/12/09

TigerXtrm

It's no attack, just an observation I've been making with a lot of these 'proud to be gay' types. On one hand you've got a bunch of people who want to be accepted because they are no different than anyone else (which is true), but on the other side those same guys are strolling around with mildly suggestive usernames and creating blogs about the wonderful life of being gay.

To me that's kind of like being a secret agent who has a big 'I'm a spy, please kill me' sign around his neck.
6/13/09

cuteptaguy

I see have a very strong opinion. Sometimes one needs to appear to be arrogant to get your point across. My blog, if you have read it, deals with both serious issues of the GLBT community as well as the funnier side. As for the picture, I guess it's personal preference of each blogger.

If you think I am making a fuss about being gay your are absolutely right - I am! If you have never been discriminated against due to something can't help or change you would not understand.

6/11/09

carsonfb

I saw Phelps and his minions protesting in Kansas City once. They seem really violent and angry; I assume it is because being closeted and hiding who you truly are can't be good for your psyche.

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6/12/09

jigsaw316

When I see some people on TV telling gays to read the Bible so they will not be gay, I wonder does that mean if you read it backwards you become gay?

Just wondering!!!

6/12/09

Theresa111

After reading the statement once more I must quip that I do not believe God hates anything or anyone. God is love.

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6/12/09

Alcomum

@ cuteptaguy bloody hell - no pun intended. I'm not expert, but I did used to be a Sunday School teacher many years ago (I know, imagine...)

My understanding of the Bible is that God (if you believe in him) loves every person, but hates any sinful behaviour. I do think the Bible says something about sex between men being an abomination to God, which is probably the bit anti-gay people get so excited about - you probably know better than me from following this nasty church website.

But the same Bible also says that people should NOT judge each other, and that "he who is without sin should cast the first stone" meaning that everybody does things that are "sinful" and no one is better than anyone else. And if you think you are better than someone who is gay because you are straight, then you are guilty of both judgement and pride.

Basically what I'm saying is that I understand the Bible to tell everyone to mind their own business and focus on their own actions and leave everyone else alone. Live and let live. If God, heaven, hell etc is real, everyone will have to answer for themselves and themselves alone in the end.

I believe lots of things the Bible says. My big brother is gay, and I don't believe God hates him.

I also think a lot of modern life isn't covered by the Bible. It doesn't help on the abortion issue for example. And it also says "the marriage bed is undefiled" (again from memory). So a married couple can do what they like and it is fine. But they didn't have gay marriage in those days, so where does that leave them now?...

@jigsaw316 - I wonder if anyone has tried that?!!

@ TigerXtrm - being gay is "normal" for many people. In the same way that being critical and generalistic is for others.

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6/12/09

wtfwjd

Alcomum, I think you would like my blog. wtfwjdbitch.blogspot.com
6/13/09

cuteptaguy

The problem I have seen with the bible is that certain groups interpret the Bible in such a way to suit them - like the Phelps family. This happens with all religions as well. It's a pity, but true.
6/13/09

Alcomum

@wtfwjd - had a quick scan. really like it. very good concept too. will follow with interest.

@cuteptaguy - I agree that interpretation is much of the problem, but it is taking action on their own interpretation that I think is worse And yes, it is a pity. I don't think it happens with everyone in all religions - but I do think it only takes some to give the whole lot a bad name.

6/13/09

www.youtube.com/watch?v=n_wa9lnSSN4

@Alcomum that's very true and unfortunately it's those who get all the media attention!

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6/18/09

dsriharsha

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6/18/09

cuteptaguy

Interesting video dsriharsha

6/27/09

danbeard

Hate is wrong. Period. I've almost given up on the "Sin" debate, but here's what I have started saying when I get: "The bible says homosexuality is wrong."

irish-red.blogspot.com/2009/06/im-american-damn-it-why-hell-does-jesus.html

The point is that ALL of the passages are open to interpretation. You can't pick and choose what you want to use to fit your beliefs. If you believe that homosexuality is wrong, cool. I believe that organized religion is wrong. That's my opinion, but I don't go around trying to convince other people to hate Catholics. I just let them live their lives, and expect to be allowed to live mine.

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6/27/09

flamingpoodle

Let's falsify that, shall we? If hate is bad, period, then love must be good, period?

Tell that to Bubbles!
6/27/09

danbeard

Well, I'd say love is pretty good... but love and hate can exist independently from each other.

6/27/09

flamingpoodle

God does hate fags. God quite smoking around the time of the burning bush.

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6/27/09

danbeard

I knew that was arson.

6/27/09

reginaldcdotme

Isn't this kind of campaign ok as long as it is done in the name of God? Isn't anything justifiable under the banner of religion as long as it is done in the name of God? Why is it that the religious God can hate every other part of its creation except those of that particular religion? AMAZING!

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6/27/09

jeremyjanson

No reginald. If it were not done in the name of the Lord, it would not be blasphemy.

6/27/09

fasy

comment removed by the community.

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6/27/09

pandora106

I am so angry to hear that that I can't even read through every ones posts. I am a Christian and am utterly disgusted that some one would say that let alone make a site about it. There is no biblical basis for this and preaching this is a devil's lie.

I'm in Canada and we don't have as liberal of freedom of speech as you do. I've often thought how far should freedom of speech go? Should there be rules?

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6/29/09

Edgycater

God hates sin not sinners. We are all sinners. Gay Christians are wrong when they state that their behavior is not sin. However, psychopaths like Fred Phelps are also wrong to advance hatred of the people. That is the antithesis of God's message.

However, the original post wondered why such "speech" is allowed. Its called natural rights as codified in the 1st Amendment. Popular or innocuous speech does not need protection. A belief in liberty demands that you tolerate speech with which you do not agree. You may even find it abhorrent, but if we want to lock folks up for what you see as "hate speech" we no longer live in freedom. That is a tyranny far worse than ugly words.

edgycater.blogspot.com

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6/29/09

voodooKobra

"Hate the sin not the sinner" leads to "If you're gay, you must repress yourself and live a miserable life of unfulfillment or you won't get into heaven."

That people claim that this comes from an omnipotent, omniscient, omnibenevolent entity gives me migraines. It's utterly ridiculous on every level.

There's more important things in the world than "Who loves who?" Gay rights and marriage are non-issues to anyone who doesn't live vicariously through passages from a Bronze Age book of superstitions and claims without evidence.

As for Westboro, they need to understand that their rights end where others' rights begin. Say "God Hates Fags" all you want at home, but when you go to a heterosexual soldier's funeral and harass his family, don't be surprised when members of your congregation get shot between the eyes. Out of spite.

6/29/09

Under freedom of speech many groups get away with saying what ever they please. However the line between hate speech and freedom of speech are in some countries not clearly defined and that's why groups like the WBC can get away with what they are doing.

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8/27/09

comment removed by the community.

Once again the crazy people decides to preach hate. Listen to the parts of this guy's church sermon about how the sodomites are out to rape & recruit your children, and how sodomites should be killed. Again my jaw dropped.

Here's the link: www.rightwingwatch.org/god-commands-you-kill-gays.html?q=content/god-comman...

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8/31/09

voiceofbragg

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8/31/09

Hayseed

Not one of those haters is sin free. Until such time as they can walk on water and calm angry seas, they will remain sinners.

They need to review Jesus' lesson at the well, regarding the angry mob about to stone an adulteress. Jesus said only the sinless among them had any right to cast a stone. By Jesus' own word, those people have *no authority* to judge the lifestyles of others.

Simply reading the Bible will not make you a true follower any more than reading a Chilton's will make you a mechanic. Congregations that actually follow the teachings of Jesus do not have time or inclination to hate.

Stop arguing with them, kind sir. You are fighting a battle of wits with an unarmed mob :]

[reply]

8/31/09

DollinNYC

This was a very interesting documentary if you have not seen it. It is also somewhat disturbing and sad.
"For the Bible Tells Me So"

"Winner of the Audience Award for Best Documentary at the Seattle International Film Festival, Dan Karslake's provocative, entertaining documentary brilliantly reconciles homosexuality and Biblical scripture, and in the process reveals that Church-sanctioned anti-gay bias is based almost solely upon a significant (and often malicious) misinterpretation of the Bible. As the film notes, most Christians live their lives today without feeling obliged to kill anyone who works on the Sabbath or eats shrimp (as a literal reading of scripture dictates)...."

www.forthebibletellsmeso.org/film.htm

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9/01/09

cuteptaguy

Will check it out!
9/01/09

Hayseed

Curious, that Karslake would choose to expound on a single tenet within a very comprehensive blueprint for living. It would boost his credibility to understand why the Levitical laws were written, to whom they were written and a synopsis of the time about which they were written.

For instance:

*the Levitical Laws were given to Moses and the Israelites for the month-long period they were marking time at Mount Sinai;

*the laws contain instruction for maintaining the physical and spiritual health of an ancient nomadic tribe with limited resources.

*other facets of Levitical law involve standards for sanitary food preparation, identification of therapeutic food, elements of healthy pregnancy and motherhood, cleaning rituals, celebrations and disciplinary actions within community life. It even details the procedure for contagious disease within the nomadic community.

It seems Karslake pounces on a single facet of ancient law simply because it contradicts his homosexual lifestyle. Leviticus is a book of sacrifice and atonement, and those laws became obsolete with the life, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ.
9/01/09

voodooKobra

Those Leviticus verses became obsolete upon the emergence of compassion within human society... which means it was never relevant or valid.

9/01/09

Hayseed

VooDoo, when exactly did society become compassionate? Last I heard, society still tolerated war, disease, hunger, theft, murder, abuse, homelessness ...

And the Levitical laws were valid for the time they were written, for the purpose they were written. That was my point. The laws are now obsolete.

[reply]

9/01/09

voodooKobra

You clearly have a biased source of information. In particular, the media.
9/01/09

Hayseed

Biased?! ME? Read a little deeper, VooDoo. I've spoken passionately in defense of freedom to choose one's lifestyle without fear of prejudice or discrimination. I'm also an ardent student of the Bible, working to understand it in its original language. I'm prejudice free, with the possible exception of child molesters ...and even then I made sure they got to the court room in one piece. Mostly.

Bias is the tendency to form opinions without gathering facts; a refusal to allow unprejudiced consideration of a question. I'm not biased, I simply disagree with you on this point.

As for trusting the media ...now I know you've never read any work of mine :]
9/01/09

cuteptaguy

People like him will never be redeemed. I think we should invite him to preach at a gay club unknowingly. I can picture it - the Drag queens kicking his ass while the effeminate gay guys do the cheerleading thing and all the butch lesbians' fists itching for a bar fight!
9/01/09

voodooKobra

[VooDoo, when exactly did society become compassionate? Last I heard, society still tolerated war, disease, hunger, theft, murder, abuse, homelessness ...]

This is what I was responding to. Society doesn't tolerate anything, it's just powerless to do anything about them. While there are individuals who tolerate all kinds of atrocity, most people do not.

[I'm also an ardent student of the Bible]

I'm an atheist, so to me this means as much as "I'm also an ardent student of the Harry Potter series."
9/01/09

Hayseed

@VooDoo, I like the way you express your opinions. The Harry Potter reference was funny :}

9/01/09

rcrane52

ah, the peace and quiet of being an atheist. none of that interpretational clutter. none of that patriarchal highjinks. none of that hate, other than when my coffee gets cold.

as for the good pastor, yeah it's hate speech, it should not be tolerated and he should be held accountable should one of his sheep harm a soul as a result.

[reply]

9/01/09

Hayseed

funny :] like your sense of humor! And I agree with holding the so-called pastor accountable. I know a few members of Rolling Thunder would be happy to assist that mission.
9/01/09

cuteptaguy

Not at all, everyone has the right to believe what they want, but with that comes great responsibility! Don't you agree?

9/01/09

FaithfulinPrayer

I too believe that homosexuality is a sin, but then so are other things. One is not worse than another. God may not like the sin, but He loves the sinner, and we are all sinners in one way or another. That church is so wrong and un-Christian. To me they are an equivalent to the radical muslims who are in no way real muslims.

[reply]

9/01/09

cuteptaguy

A bird doesn't sing because it has an answer, it sings because it has a song.
9/01/09

voodooKobra

[...the radical muslims who are in no way real muslims.]

Says you.
9/01/09

cuteptaguy

Not at all, everyone has the right to believe what they want, but with that comes great responsibility! Don't you agree?
9/01/09

voodooKobra

Wait, what?

9/01/09

Everyone has the right to believe in what they choose. However some people and churches takes it too far.

In earlier comments the issue of compassion was raised. I believe the lack of compassion some people display for their fellow man is the root of the problem.

Many people hide behind their radical believes because they fear those who are different. They mask their own insecurities with hate speech because they find it difficult to adapt to an ever changing world. Just a pity that homosexuals some times takes the brunt of their hate speech and negative attention.

Here is the original blog post on this subject matter: warfare-delightful-dreary-life.blogspot.com/2009/06/god-hates-fags.html

[reply]

9/01/09

gerryPlanetEarth

Many religions are conducted in a blasphemous manner...Religions should worship G-d rather than blasphemously claiming to speak for G-d...

In my opinion the best way to worship G-d is to be a good person, be kind to the lifeforms on Planet Earth and be thankful for the blessings bestowed on us by our Creator...

[reply]

9/02/09

cuteptaguy

I wish more of those radical religious folks shared your view!
9/02/09

cuteptaguy

There is a thin line between freedom of speech & hate speech!

9/02/09

Lundymaphone

As disgusting as it is, I have to agree with others who have defended the right to free speech. So long as someone does not advocate violence they have every right to say what they wish.

[reply]

9/02/09

voodooKobra

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aristotelian_ethics

Excessive freedom can be a vice, you know.
9/02/09

cuteptaguy

I agree with you. However, sometimes the things people say can indirectly insight violence. But, freedom of speech is necessary & important. We shouldn't censor people just because we do not like what they are saying.

9/02/09

Well, I believe legally it isn't hate speech because they are saying things like "God hates fags" or even "I hate fags." Unfortunately they are well within their constitutional rights to say that, just as a white man can say that he hates african-americans. It is wrong on so many levels, but they are within their rights. Now if they were to call men/women fags, queers, cock-suckers, directly, then I would think it would be hate speech.

Also here is another issue. By Federal law, homosexuality is NOT covered by hate-crime protection laws. If The Matthew Shepherd act would have passed through congress two years ago, then it would be. However it didn't, I believe because of a Republican filibuster.

It is sad though isn't it. That we as part of the homosexual community have to put up with this insane shit because we are gay and they are practicing their "religious rights." I am with you though. There is a fine line between free speech/religious rights and what they are doing which is hate speech. Hopefully soon the law will see it for how it is.

[reply]

9/03/09

voodooKobra

[Also here is another issue. By Federal law, homosexuality is NOT covered by hate-crime protection laws. If The Matthew Shepherd act would have passed through congress two years ago, then it would be. However it didn't, I believe because of a Republican filibuster.]

Ah, Republicans. They say they don't like government taking away their freedoms (gun possession, etc.), then in the next breath, they proclaim that gays don't deserve equal rights. Not all Republicans, mind you. Just the hypocritical ones.

Cognitive dissonance manifests in strange ways.
9/05/09

cuteptaguy

USA laws can be so confusing sometimes not to mention the double standards!

9/02/09

By the way, I just looked up the laws regarding hate speech and I found something quite surprising. Hate speech is NOT illegal unless it creates a clear immanent danger to an individual or if it creates a hostile work/school environment. So in other words, what the Phelps family is doing, is technically perfectly legal.

This was decided by the Supreme Court in Gitlow vs New York. So basically to answer the question, the free speech clause of the 1st Amendment actually allows for hate speech with the exceptions mentioned above.

[reply]

9/03/09

cuteptaguy

Scary isn't it! Fred Phelps use to be a lawyer so he knows exactly how far he can go without breaking the law.

9/03/09

It is. The entire family are a bunch of constitutional lawyers. Apparently they make a living suing people who keep them from protesting at funerals and such. Maybe we need to gather up as many LBGT and LBGY supporters and surround the Westboro Baptist Church and protest their existence. Maybe once when they understand how it feels they will stop...however unlikely that may be.

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9/03/09

voodooKobra

Nah, I have a better idea. They owe $10.9 million in a lawsuit, so let's turn their church into a gay bar. Any rich people with a sense of humor on BC?

9/03/09

actually, heres an interesting fact i just looked up. homosexuality is protected under federal hate crime laws if it is a federal crime. however if it isn't then it is not covered by hate crime laws. kinda strange. the matthew shepherd act would have placed homosexuality in the hate crime definition laws across the board. and yes it did fail at the hands of a republican filibuster in the senate.

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9/03/09

cuteptaguy

Politics & politicians can only be trusted to do what the majority wants them to do - they want to stay in power after all. Minority groups are frequently failed by their government across the world. That's why it is so important for minority groups not to keep quiet but make there voices heard and demand the rights they deserve.

9/03/09

aningeniousname

He should stop smoking then.

[reply]

9/03/09

kenyantykoon

i have been to the website and really think that i should reserve my comments on it. i dont want to inflame anybody. As to the title of the discussion and site, God hates fags, God does not hate fags but He hates the fagotry(just coined it)- you know, the state of being a faggot.

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9/03/09

cuteptaguy

Well then I shall fan the flames of my faggotry in hell, as he says I am going there anyway. At least it will be fabulously decorated and we all will be well dressed and groomed.
9/16/09

kenyantykoon

you really want to burn in hell?? you know that you dont have to. it does not seem a very pleasant place to spend billions and billions of years in

9/03/09