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Grammar Nazis, I need your input!
Posted by DaneMorgan • 11 days ago • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: grammar, punctuation, sentence structure, writing skills
I need some help here.
As I understand things, once upon a time, in the U.S. proper punctuation required 2 spaces after the end of a sentence. It is further my understanding that this changed with the demise of typewriters and mono spaced typefaces and that now a single space is required or at least the preferred method of separating sentences.
What say you, and have you and references to back up your position on this critical matter?
PS. Can anyone recommend a favorite resource for learning grammar? I'm not looking for a big book on grammar that I would already have to know a rule to be able to look it up. I mean something that will walk me through like I'm 5 and assist me in learning enough that the big grammar rules book would do me any good.
User Comments
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you've already shown a better command of the English language than many people have-
Well, I believe that I'm a good communicator. But I also recognize that I've always just kinds went with what I felt as grammar goes.
Now, however, I've gone full time as a freelance writer and I'm getting paying gigs. I feel the need to address my grammar skills and bring them up to a more polished and professional level. -
understandable
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I'm sure madamex is asleep. It's like wayyy past uptight woman bedtime-
Play nice.
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How rude.
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I always use two spaces myself. The Elements of Style by Strunk is a classic on the subject. Don't know, however, if it's slightly dated.-
Strunk's the author's name.
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Oh,thank the lord...
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It does sound like a hip-hop phrase...
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I luv u travelosity
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I know that used to be the rule. But the thing is, a few years back I took a couple of random college courses, and the professor in one of them corrected me on this, saying that I should only use one space.
I *think* I've seen the same suggestion elsewhere, but my aging gray matter isn't up to the task of retrieving any specifics.
Anyhow, I sold some work to a Brit who is running content acquisition for a major US player. He corrected me saying that US rules require two spaces while British rules require one.
Obviously, he's the client and I'm gonna give him whatever he wants, but I'm cursed with all the curiosity that choked the cat through all nine of his lives. -
well, I have noticed (being space-conscious myself) that BC only allows one space, and will delete the second, but I assumed that it was just a computer thing
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I believe a number of forum platforms do the same thing, Agit8r.
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computers we can deal with .... -
Yes, sourcing my, um, professional writing professor in college, you should only use one space after the period now because otherwise it creates "rivers of white space" on your pages--
Basically because of the electronic printing, when you glance at a page with two spaces after the period, it creates a visual effect of trails through the lines of text.
We used Strunk & White, too, but it's basically helpful for reference on specific questions. As for a good grammar tutorial, I don't know off the top of my head. -
I am a two-space gal.
And I like rivers.
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What does strunk mean
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He means business, baby! Never mess with a grammar dude. He'll rearrange your ellipses...
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I swear by Wren & Martin, but that may be British
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Y'all have fun with this thread...ya hear!
Shhhh,nobody tell madamex what I said...homegirl has it out for me.-
now i know where to go when u stalk me..
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I prefer the two dots instead of two spaces ..
um, there is a grammar wordpress plugin ..
wordpress.org/extend/plugins/after-the-deadline/
www.afterthedeadline.com/ -
Don't gotta worry bout me stalking u...I promise,but I think u would be good for madamex,she needs a man,and both of u guys are just as anal as I've ever seen...
Do I hear bc wedding bells???!!!!-
While I happen to have a good deal of respect for Tiffany, and in that respect fondness, I am married and I believe the chances of any, much less all three of us converting to anything resembling FLDS to be exceedingly slight.
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never mind her, she cracks these pj's sometimes
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All I learned in school in business classes and typing and all that BS I took in high school s of no use any more. As for grammar I just use my daughters Shirley Method of learning. It is several books that makes it sink in with silly sayings and such.-
Silly sayings are wonderful things.
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Your understanding is right - proportional type doesn't require two spaces. It's a matter of style, not punctuation or grammar. One reference would be the MLA Handbook for Writers of Research Papers (I'm not sure between which two editions the rule changed, but it did). Chicago Style probably did the same (Chicago Style is much more common for news writing).
(addition to wordiness!) If you freelance, always ask which style sheet they use. If they look at you weirdly, don't worry about it.
NP is right; Elements of Style (by Strunk and White) is the best-selling grammar book ever - 10,000,000 copies. It is slightly outdated, but it's short, cheap, and if you know the old-fashioned rule, you know how to bend it.-
Cool! These days I'm always happy to learn that some small portion of my brain seems to be functioning normally.
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Check out THE CHICAGO MANUAL OF STYLE. It's the style, grammar and manuscript preparation bible used by many publishing houses and writers and is updated every so often.-
Thanks for the tip.
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Someone's hallucinating
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If you're looking for a reason behind the style, think about web writing principles. Everyone's heard that to write for the web, you keep your sentences short and clear etc. Why? Because it's measurably more difficult to read text from a screen than a printed page.
Because of this difficulty, the idea is to do everything possible to negate that difficulty - to make it easy again.
Having a double space before the start of a sentence means your eyes have to adjust to that slightly different gap. Leaving a single space makes it just that little bit easier.
I'll admit that the difference is slight, but for web writing you add that little change together with using a dash instead of a semi-colon, leaving out the dots in abbreviations and a host of other things. All together, you can make a substantial difference.-
Very nice analysis. Thanks.
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It is merely style thing. For instant a professor my prefer it one way or the other.
I think "The Elements of Style" is probably the Most handy thinG out there. I've had mine since high school.
"A Writers Reference", By Diana Hacker is a decent enough book for writers, I know a few people use it a s a reference, it's often used for college writing.
dianahacker.com/writersref -
I love Strunk and White, and I still use Fowler. Harbrace also has excellent information, including some stuff that is not included elsewhere. I prefer MLA for references. -
I don't have references, but I know that two spaces after a period (or a colon for that matter) was standard for typewriters but is considered a mistake on word processors. It might be different if you use a type-writer inspired font like Courier.
As for grammar, there are some good articles on Factoidz. Here are mine:
factoidz.com/easy-ways-to-revise-and-improve-your-writing/
factoidz.com/four-confusing-words-affect-noun-and-verb-and-effect-noun-and-...
factoidz.com/going-on-a-which-hunt-choosing-between-that-and-which-in-relat...
There are others, and it is easier to find articles on the same topic there than articles by the same person. -
It definitely used to be two spaces, and I'm not sure when it changed, but there are not many that do that anymore. I prefer "grammar prude" to "grammar nazi" but thanks for asking me. I think your English has zero issues, so unless you're putting in your Nobel Peace Prize nomination, don't worry about style books. -
Hey Dane,
The original reason for the double space rule wasn't a matter of style as much as it was a matter of typewriters. Newspapers didn't follow it if they had "leading" that compensated for it.
When computers came around, they adjusted the leading so it was clear that the space was then end of the sentence. So, nowadays, it's not needed or even appreciated. If I come across the source, I'll let you know, but this one is more matter-of-fact memory.
Of course, if you are using a typewriter, then it's best to revert to that rule.
Best,
Rich-
That's pretty much what i thought, though with bit more detail.
Thanks Rich.
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I'm generally willing to help people improve their understanding of grammar, but I find you cavalier use of the word "Nazi" to be deeply offensive.-
this word is not taboo here. even jerry seinfeld had the soup nazi character. get a sense of humor.
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I have a sense of humor (which is apparently much too dry for you to grasp) but since my politics are very much anti-Nazi and I've spent a lot of time reading and sometimes writing about the historical era, I do not think it an appropriate appellation for for those who care about the craft of writing.
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dude, i guess i'm just dense. you win.
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Yes, I do.
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yeah. clearly. are you paying attention? do you get it that this was patronizing?
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I'm sorry you chose to be offended. I hope things go better for you in the future.
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I think it's pretty offensive to compare those folk who care whether a noun is an direct or indirect object, or about the proper use of the present participle to a political movement whose entire raison d'être was genocide and establishing a racial caste-system throughout Europe, North Africa, and Western Asia.
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Well, if "a member of the National Socialist Party", and particularly a member of that party engaged in such activities were the only possible definition, maybe you'd have something.
As it is, the word has also come to take the meaning of a derogatory term for a person who is fanatically dedicated to, or seeks to control, some activity, practice, etc.
Your choice to take offense implies that you have difficulty interpreting things within the context in which they are presented.
I had rather thought you a sharper tack that that (I'm not suggesting that you are thin, pointy and stuck in a cork board, for the record).
In any event you have only restated your original point, adding a bit of out of context information to it, not presented anything new. You offense is still your offense, and still what you have chosen. -
thin.
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No. I have a problem being compared to people who not only systematically exterminated most of my extended family but also most people of my ethnicity. The fact that the grounds for such a comparison is my ability to distinguish between direct and indirect objects demonstrates a failure on your part to grasp historical context. The fact that you insult me after I have brought the offense to your attention demonstrates a continued failure to understand context.
Grammar is all about context. -
The end of this side trip for me is simply this. I don't bow to the thought police. Ever. Period.
You choose your own offense, just as you choose your own happiness.
My use of the word Nazi is understood by everyone in this thread save one. More to the point it achieved the communicative goal to which I applied it.
If the response I receive is the meaning of my communication, it would seem you were not the target of my message. If you want to take some strange comfort in believing that my message is about hating grammarians, or comparing grammarians to mass murderers because that is the only context in which you can understand the word, then that is ultimately a problem you have to deal with.
I do not accept your limits as valid. -
This has nothing to do with political correctness, or thought police, Dane. This is about having some respect for the memory both of those who were tyrannized and murdered by the Third Reich and its allies as well as for those who sacrificed to bring down that regime.
Bluntly: you're making light of that historical reality.
It's the same as with the use of racial slurs: expect some parties to be offended on a visceral level.
I have no problem courting controversy– but when I do, it's for something I believe in.
No one is policing your thoughts, Dane. I'm simply telling you that your word choice was unnecessarily and deeply offensive to a great many people (even if others find it amusing.) It's evident that you did not originally intend to offend, indeed, you might have thought you were being cute, so I am not passing judgement on your character: I'm just exercising my freedom of speech to tell you what I think.
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I've apparently become a grammar-nazi since making a "ism" joke in a Religion thread. My favorite resource for grammar is:
E.B. White & Strunk, "The Elements of Style"
It's short and it talks not only about grammar but why grammar is important, what the grammar means, and how it can be exploited creatively to improve your writing style. And it's only 85 pages. -
I googled "double spacing after sentence period" and there are many results. Apparently it isn't a done deal.
Wikipedia seems to be quite accurate en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_spacing_at_the_end_of_sentences
It's an issue of typography and is covered by several style guides; Chicago Manual of Style (as Savvy2 noted) will probably be the most valuable for you.
Also, just to be clear; style here doesn't mean stylish, as in how to write with style. Well, actually it does, but "style" refers to all manner of decisions regarding writing/publishing, and typography is definitely one of them.
See Wikipedia for "style guides."-
An interesting examination of the subject. And here I was thinking the 'pedia had surrendered any hope of further usefulness.
Does it signify anything that I actually found some of the externally linked discussions from that page... interesting?
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I might also add that English is the most fluid and rapidly evolving of languages. From Shakespeare, to rhyming cockney, to rap, internet lingo and bee-bop, this constantly morphing polyglot nature of the jargon is one of its prime defining qualities and have made it the preeminent world language. The grammar rules are also in constant flux and rather than being aggravated by that, we should embrace it as giving the language incredible dynamism and unquenchable power. Don't sweat the little stuff. When in doubt, refer to James Joyce's "Ulysees."-
I would have a difficult time finding a way to agree with you more than I already do. I've always been a bit of a grammar rebel.
But when others is payin' da bill they gets their way.
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check out the MLA handbook - it's pretty hefty, but I invested in one at the beginning of college and have gotten a lot of use out of it (I'm a music history major, so I write a lot of papers)
it's main use is for writing research papers, but it also has the rules of writing well. check it out here: www.mlahandbook.org/
also, the blue book of grammar and punctuation is something my advisor has on hand and pulls out when one of us has a question. i've found it helpful as well!
www.grammarbook.com/
the double space thing is so confusing - when i learned to type in elementary school, we learned to double space. however, once i got to college, professors started deducting points for the double space. it's taken a lot of work to break the habit, but i definitely still slip an extra space in on a regular basis... -
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You need my sister, the superior, walking editor and grammatically correct persona. Shout box me and I shall point you in her direction.
She is better than any book.-
Will she sit on my desk and keep me in line all day? ')
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She can be reached by email and phone. Let me know I will hire her out cheap. Truly she is the genius. She can make all your hard work go from good to great.
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I would say hire me to proof read all your work,but you prolly actually need your job. Right?
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Either that or I'm a masochist. Jury's still out on it though.
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When I worked as a translator/proofreader, trying to get grammar to be perfectly correct was always a pain in the butt, and the only conclusion I was able to reach was that there really isn't any consensus on some of the rules. There are loads of regional variations and they change over time, so the best you can do is "mostly correct according to the majority in a specific tradition"...
That said, my favourite references were Elements of Style and www.askoxford.com. Askoxford has a handy search function that you can find articles and references with, and they usually include information about UK vs US usage.-
I suppose that goes toward explaining the sheer volume of competing references in the field.
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@dane
Huh? -
Hey Dane. I just started a blog www.GrammarPrude.com Don't bother going there (or calling this a link drop considering I am discouraging anyone going to an empty page)as there are zero posts and I spent the better part of the past hour getting the GoDaddy ads off of there, but I think I'll be putting up some posts here and there in the future.
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When you do be sure to PM me so I can pay a visit.
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Many of my friends are graphic designers in the advertising industry, meaning they deal with the typesetting of brochures, manuals, print ads etc. on a daily basis (in other words they are TYPOGRAPHY specialists).
I will go with what they say: Only one space after full stops. That goes for commas, question marks and all the other punctuation marks.
And yes, this 'rule' has come into use since the demise of dem old-fazzhioned typewritters.-
Great avatar!
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Why, thank you.
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My degree is in English, and I always use two spaces after a period. I have never heard of this one space change, nor do I attend to adhere to it! Nor have I ever been asked to change a submission or anything else to the one space. The Elements of Style by Strunk is the classic. I'm looking at a copy right now....-
But is "That's the way we've always done it", a valid reason for how we intend to do something in the future?
I mean if it were proven to you systematically that using a single space after a full stop increased readability, and thus communication with your reader, you would surely switch that instant, right? -
@Dane
Languages tend to evolve over time, so grammar references and people using the languages need to evolve with them. A grammar book from 1650 is pretty useless for a modern writer, just as Strunk & White will be in 2250, if it isn't already. The Boston Globe supposedly reviewed the 2005 edition of the book as "an aging zombie of a book". The Elements of Style was originally published in 1918 and has been revised and updated a couple of times since then. However, Strunk died in 1985, and I'm guessing the modernization of the language will leave the book behind completely in not too long... -
Yes, anything like this about a language that's still being spoken on a wise basis, and English has a huge base, can only be a snapshot.
I'm kinda looking for the best most recent photo. -
I know that the one-space change has come into advent, but I still find two spaces to be much easier to read. That's why I still use both of them, unless I'm getting too blabby in a tweet and need an extra character or two. Some text editors automatically discard the extra space, though, so on-line even when I use them both sometimes only one shows. I have my word processor set to recognize two as perfectly normal.
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I always put a space after a colon or semi-colon. Is that still standard practice?
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Yes. In general, you should put a space after punctuation. En- and em-dashes, on the other hand, should be used without spaces.
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