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Heath Ledger: Not a Tragic Hero?
Posted by TheBigRuski • 8/04/08 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: academy awards, addiction, dark knight, entertainment, Film, heath ledger, movies, oscar
Seattle writer Eric P. Lucas had a LA Times opinion piece Friday that basically not only slams Heath Ledger's Joker performance, but calls for the "Academy" not to posthumously honor him with an Oscar.
The reason being?
Lucas' own sobriety has opened his eyes to the drunken-like "posthumous swooning over Ledger" and "mass social hysteria." He doesn't see the point in it.
He writes:
Each year more than 100,000 Americans die of alcohol or drug abuse. It would be madness to commemorate one such death with the greatest honor in cinema. Please give the Academy Award to someone who's had the courage to stick around.
What's your view on the idea of excluding Ledger from Oscar consideration?
My post and link to the article can be found at:
thescroogereport.wordpress.com/2008/08/02/heath-ledger-oscar-worthy-or-a-ca...
Hint: I agree on one of the two major points.
User Comments
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I don't judge people by what they do outside their music or movie career. I just judge them on their work. That is the way it should be I think.
If regular people listed their skeletons, the list would be a mile long also.-
Ya, I agree.
Although I can sympathize with the writer of this article, he's kind of misplacing his energy.
Taking an Oscar away is not the solution. -
I agree. Ledger's death was a tragedy. -
That's correct. Heath Ledger's performance as a joker was very moving. He deserved teh Oscars.
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frankly, i don't care if they honour him posthumously or not. it should be on his work, not because he died.
however, what i have heard of his death, this was an accident in which someone who was not sleeping screwed up and forgot what he'd taken, what he wasn't supposed to take together and that he just wanted a few hours of sleep rather than someone trying to do himself in or get some kind of "high." i don't really think of his death as drug or alcohol abuse related.-
I think the "abuse" part is open for debate. It doesn't take too much imagination to say that he may have been messing with a mix of pills he maybe should not have been mixing.
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what i have seen from the official news, which is all i have to go on, is this:
In addition to the painkiller oxycodone, the list of generic names refer to drugs more commonly known as the painkiller Vicodin, anti-anxiety medications Valium and Xanax, and the sleeping pill Restoril, while Unisom is an antihistamine commonly used as a sleeping aid.
seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/movies/2004168938_heath07.html
the amount indicated an accidental overdose, not an attempt for a high. -
Not to be mean or insensitive, but what was he "attempting" with four different kinds of medications (drugs) known to be abused for getting high purposes.
I believe a toxicology report is not designed to get into somone's head as to what they were thinking prior to death. -
"It doesn't take too much imagination to say that he may have been messing with a mix of pills he maybe should not have been mixing"
That is a judgment that is based on no valid information or proof, and is grossly unfair, especially considering the coroners report. I nearly overdosed once and for the same reasons and let me tell you it is a lot easier than people think (even for conservative medication takers like myself).
www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080729/med_errors_080729/200... -
Where would this writer get his information from then? Why would the Times print this piece if the "overdose" or "abuse" aspect was so totally out of line?
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TBR - because it's an opinion piece, not a factual story.
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Opinion pieces...especially for a publication such as the Los Angeles Times are fact checked and scrutinized well.
From accidental death to suicide is a large enough leap to be called at least "defammatory." I don't think it would have ran unless there was some validity to the argument...IMO. -
"In addition to the painkiller oxycodone, the list of generic names refer to drugs more commonly known as the painkiller Vicodin, anti-anxiety medications Valium and Xanax, and the sleeping pill Restoril, while Unisom is an antihistamine commonly used as a sleeping aid."
I don't think Heath Ledger was a complete idiot. He was playing with fire mixing all that stuff to chase away whatever demon he was facing. He was attempting to alter his conscious state. Call it getting high or medicating a disease, its all the same when you take the pills.
I haven't seen the movie so I can't judge his performance but I liked him in most of roles (save 10 things I hate about you).
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you got a point ! -
I wouldn't see it as "commemorating his death", but rather, celebrating his accomplishment. If his work is Oscar-worthy, then he deserves the Oscar.
Actors and actresses engage in socially-unacceptably behavior every day, but that is not a determining factor when the Academy votes on who should be awarded the Oscar, nor should it be.
And maybe I'm misinformed, but wasn't his death ruled accidental due to lethal prescription drug combination? Even if it was in combination with alcohol, he should not be "punished posthumously" for such a tragedy. -
Why should he be excluded for consideration? Like others I don't really think his private life or his death should have any relevance in the decision. He gave an excellent performance and as such that is what should be considered.
As far as how he died, there is no evidence he had a history of abusing drugs or alcohol. It seems to be a case of an accidental overdose of prescription meds. -
I'm afraid I've become cynical on media opinions like this, which seem largely to serve as part of a "if most folks say they like someone or something, I will go the other direction with it, in the hopes to garner attention."-
Yes, but at the same time I believe he has a valid point on the "hysteria" over the whole deal.
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who gives two bits?
tweedle-dee-the-wonder-dummy should have grown up a long time ago and become a more resposible human being. My God, if he was such a great guy, then the only one I feel sorry for is his daughter, who will now miss out on having her daddy around to watch her grow.
Gimme a break.
And go ahead and give him the watered down award. Nobody will remember in two tho three. TOPS!!!
You don't believe me? what are the winners that you remember? The only ones I remember are Cuba Gooding, Jr, when he won and actually ENJOYED it and Sally Fields when she figured out everybody loved her.-
Not only is the Oscar watered down...so is prescription drug use. One can have four different medications in them...all for pain, anxiety, and sleeplessness...and say it's no big whoop! As if all of us would down 4 medications to keep us at even keel.
Prescription drug abuse is a serious issue. Look, the guy could have been the greatest guy on earth, but he may have had a lapse in judgement.
Do we all have lapses in judgement? Sure. But let's not sugar coat them...or in this case lift someone up to legendary status without good reason.
(And I am still for him receiving an Oscar if the performance proves to be best.) -
Ruski, hey buddy, I am not a saint. I'll be the first to admit it. I lived in the fast lane for many years. I was even homeless for awhile. I made many lapses in judjement. Although it broke my family's heart, in the end I was hurting myself.
But I grew up.
Now that I have a family, would I ever go back to those kinds of lapses in judjements. HELL NO! I have a wife and three beautiful children. Life is not perfect, but it is still great. I have more financial stresses than Heathboy ever did, but I you could take a blood test on me everyday and see that I deal with issues where I do not have subject me or my family to "mental lapse". -
Thanks for sharing that...and that's my point...you see the severity of the issue while others don't see it.
We can be both compassionate and real! -
A lot of decent people take a variety of prescription medications and a lot of decent people accidentally overdose on them.
www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=90009525 -
I am 35 years, I have been on different types of medication since I was 5. My father has been on some type of medication since he was three, and he is 60. That's a total of 87 years, which comes out to about 31,700 days. Not once have we ever overdosed.
Yes, in a world of 8 billion people, things will happen. There are true accidents. But c'mon!!! People like porr ole Heath have the means to the best healthcare and information. Plus given all the movie roles he has had, he must be able to read!
Cry me a freaking river. it's about adult responsibility. -
I read the story you linked...some of the first statements are:
Some of them, mixed together, made a deadly combination.
The medications prescribed for soldiers are so potent that they can be dangerous when taken with other drugs or alcohol.
Let me ask you this...why would you mix? And why would you drink alcohol?...knowing the above.
ABSOLUTELY...there are decent people who accidentally overdose...again...to me, this isn't about the question of Ledger's character or decency. -
Watch it Ruski, you shouldn't starting mixing cognitive thinking and common sense. One someone is going to say that you are being anti-sensitive.
BAAAWHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! -
Ledger didn't have alcohol in his system according to the coroner, so your argument isn't very strong in that regard. As to why mix meds, why does anybody have a mix of meds, their doctor prescribes them for various ailments?
People have insomnia, depression, anxiety,allergies, pain, etc, and each requires a different med. You may be just one of those who hasn't needed to, but it is hardly unusual for people to have a mixture of medications.
Seems like a very weak argument to try and prove something that has no basis in fact.
well off to cook dinner. nice chatting with you. -
I have had to take medications of all kinds before. I am not talking without experience...as is RTB.
Just because your doctor prescribes you something (especially in the realm of psych and nervous system meds) it does not mean one should constantly seek relief through these prescriptions.
There are other aspects to emotional and mental health that a cocktail of pills can't fix. Again, (about the 5th time I've said this) this is not to character assasinate Ledger, only to point out that much of society has a skewed sense of reality when it comes to the adoration of celebrities.
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Do you really need to take drugs unless you have a true clinical condition? Many people are in pain, physical and emotional but to OD takes perhaps a lack of responsibility. What about person in question's daughter and other family? What about their pain?
Heath's Oscar should be based on his performance and nothing else. His personal circumstances have to be irrelevant because no one knows the actual truth of what happened.-
Agreed.
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yeppers...
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Who exactly is calling Heath Ledger a tragic hero? And who is saying he should win Best Oscar just because he died? Is it anyone of consequence or is it just this idiot in the LA Times?
And RTBjr, could you dance a little more on the grave of Heath Ledger for me? I feel you're holding back on your seething ire of a man you never met.-
bloggers...I think!
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I can't see the seething ire bit. Heath Ledger was a great actor - respect. He was also a human being and who are we really to comment on individuals we don't know. We can only comment objectively on a situation we might have a degree of experience of.
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Well I certainly don't say "tweedle-dee-the-wonder-dummy should have grown up a long time ago and become a more resposible human being" to people I'm rather fond of, that's for skippy.
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There was a documentary about Woody Allen in which he was asked what he thought about awards. He talked about watching the Oscars when he was a kid, and being stunned when Marlon Brando didn't win for "Streetcar Named Desire" (in which his performance is, arguably, one of the most important in the history of acting on film). That, Allen says, is when he realized that these awards don't mean anything. -
Well that totally sums it up. After all what does an award mean to Heath Ledger now? The work always speaks for itself. There must be many actors who have given great performances with no need for an award to speak for it. Many people do great things without needing an award for recognition.
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"After all what does an award mean to Heath Ledger now?"
Obviously it is of no use to him now, but his parents (and his child when she gets older) would probably be very honored if people felt that he was entitled to this honor and he actually received it.
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To follow up on that last comment, I watched the Oscars this past year (when Cate Blanchett didn't win for her unbelievable turn as Bob Dylan) and they did a little retrospective of all the movies that have ever won best picture. While there were certainly some greats, overall, I'd say it was a list of mostly pretty good movies, and I can't imagine any serious movie fan who couldn't come up with a better one.
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I think whether he lived (and died) irresponsibly or not and whether he should win an Oscar or not are two completely different issues. They're mutually exclusive really. I don't see any need to muddy-up one with the other.-
I agree...but whatever our individual view points are...there will be plenty of muddying up of the waters for months to come before the Oscars.
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I agree with the majority on here. His caree and his personal life are two different things and should have nothing to do with him winning the oscar. I think that Heath Ledger did an amazing job in Dark Knight but i think the reason why his is getting considered for the oscar is influenced by his death. -
Agreed. It would be a shame if he got an Oscar simply because he's now dead. A tribute celebrating his acting accomplishments might be more fitting rather than the "sympathy vote" that an Oscar might represent.-
That, I think, is the main point of the writer of the article...him not wanting to see a sympathy vote.
However, you see, this writer has a stronger conviction. He knows the damage of drugs and alcohol, so he's in essence telling our society to wise up! I don't agree with him on the point of tying it into the Oscars, but I agree with him on the point of there being a hysteria over Ledger in Dark Knight. -
@TheBigRuski, it ain't worth it buddy. LOL.
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Wouldn't it be nice if we could all just give awards based on merit and nothing else? Whether he is alive or dead, whether it was his fault or not, I don't think that should have any bearing on his being nominated and/or winning an Oscar.
I've already stated my opinion on his "drug use", but I think an investigation into the doctors by the FDA should be a very telling piece of evidence. I see daily how it could very easily happen that one would accidentally overdose on prescription meds.-
However, in essence, doesn't "prescription" mean take a prescribed amount and avoid these such and such interactions?
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Well of course it does. Do you really believe that doctors are infallible? I've seen people die due to physician error. If you have several doctors and several pharmacies, it's quite easy to OD. He did take the prescribed amounts and died anyway - that's been established.
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Oh, I didn't know it was established that he took the prescribed amounts...and avoided the interaction warnings as well?
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BTW...any druggie knows that Xanax can amplify anthing...including other sedatives and pain killers...why do you think there is a xanax/heroine conncotion?
So, he was unaware that Xanax and Valium are a bad mix? -
My husband takes several medications daily, and because of insurance constraints has several doctors prescribing and several pharmacies to deal with. If not for my reading over the literature and reminding doctors of what and how much he is taking, he may well have been one of these people that dies as a result of failing to recognize the contraindications.
Heath Ledger isn't the only person in the world to have had this happen - what's your beef with him in particular? -
Now you're calling him a druggie. I think it's clear that you just don't like him.
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Anyone in Hollywood exposed to the drug culture...
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And finally we see Ruski's true motive revealed...
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Yes, that it’s best we don’t glorify alcohol and drugs. The damage to society is larger than we can comprehend.
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Or that you've got a bone to pick with Heath Ledger. This isn't your first thread regarding him and his drug overdose. You've got a bug up your ass about him, his role in The Dark Knight, and his drug overdose and you're too cowardly to come right out and say it. So how about cutting the coy charade and getting to the point for once?
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Sorry, I believe this is my first discussion thread on Ledger. My "motivation" is posted above your comment...and you are grossly mistaken.
You have mistaken me for someone else.
Your comments are prejudicial toward me, someone you don't even know. -
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Ok...sorry. Here again...I was basically making the same point...this time in a more tongue-in-cheek way:
"Maybe glorifying the 'dark side' is not all it's cracked up to be!"
You were absolutely correct in saying I posted before on Dark Knight. However, incorrect in your assumption. My point is above and here.
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I thought he died of an accidental overdose. It's actually very easy to overdose on such medications.
Anyway, if he's deserving of the award give it to him. Who cares about anything else. The award should be given based on his acting ability in that role. Period.
I find your original question here to be so judgmental. Why are Christians so judgmental? It seems to go against everything you say you are.-
LOL~! I'm a Christian, but not a conservative, stuffy, judgemental one.
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Well, I do apologize for my generalization of Christians. I thought of that after I typed it.
I just find it frustrating when people spend a lot of their time talking about their faith ... and then they spend the rest of their time judging people. -
Now, now, kids. Let's all get some ice cream and be friends.
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Where have I judged Heath Ledger? It was the writer of the article that did most of the judging...especially when it came to his Joker performance...and his assumption that it was a suicide.
My point (again with different words) is one more of observation...that one writer is so appalled at the hysteria over the portayal of a dark figure (which he found not so good)..and on top of that, the glorification of a performer with yet another drug induced death. His assumption is that it was not accidental. Although I certainly can sympathize with ANY sudden death, I can understand this writer's angst. -
I read your blog article and I read what you said here ... I stand by what I wrote.
If you disagreed with the writer of the article you sure didn't separate yourself from it very well.
And, you're perpetuating falsehoods about his death by doing this blog post. He didn't commit suicide and he wasn't in some "drug culture". -
Hollywood does not have a huge drug culture within it? Was Ledger some actor on an island that was jetted in and out for his work?
Sorry, I was not clear enough. First point: accidental or not, the morbid curiousity and fascination of the sudden death of entertainers is an interesting comment on much of society. Secondly, an Oscar should be given to the best performance.
Thirdly, perhaps I did not do enough research, but for the Times to print this article, there had to be enough validity to it even if it was an opinion. -
Just because someone is an actor does not in and of itself mean he/she is involved in a drug culture. To make such an assumption is ridiculous.
Hey, I don't even know the guy, only saw him in Brokeback Mountain and wasn't overly impressed ... but I'm not about to jump to conclusions based solely on his profession. -
Again, WHO said he was involved? I'm just saying you would have to have blinders on not to see it all around you.
I'm not making any assumptions! -
Isn't this from your blog article?
"You really can’t take an “accidental mix of prescription drugs” unless you accidentally forgot that you took them all!"
That ... from how I read it ... along with everything else you've said ... makes it sound like you think he's a drug user. -
My opinion is that he had some mental and emotional problems. He sought help through medication. It is unlikely that he was unaware of the consequences of mixing those particular medications.
We can soften the guy's death till we are blue in the face. It's unrealistic to believe he was naive about the prescription drugs. Although there is a slimmer (IMO) of a chance that he accidently took 4 psych and anxiety drugs together, thinking that was the solution to his problems. Simply trying to make himself feel better.
It is sad...and there is certainly no reason to make light of it or dismiss it as simply an overdose. -
BTW...he was a drug user. A prescription drug user. Like it or not.
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Sounds like another example of someone confusing the artist with the art. When someone wins an Oscar, it's not because they're a wonderful person, it's to recognize their art. As far as I know, there's no reason to believe that Ledger had any substance abuse problem, but that's beside the point.
The biggest prick in the world can be an awesome artist and the nicest guy in the world can suck. If they're going to start handing out awards for a life well-lived, they're going to have to start another show -- the Oscars aren't that venue.-
LOL! Exactly...I think the writer went over the top with his suggestion.
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In fact, on reading the article, confusing the artist with the art is exactly what he's doing:
The current mania joins Ledger to a long line of creative figures who committed the ultimate failure and are, unfortunately, all the more famous for it: Dylan Thomas, Hank Williams, Jackson Pollock, Jimi Hendrix, Kurt Cobain, John Belushi, Janis Joplin. Some drank themselves to death, some overdosed, some ran their cars off the road. As the saying goes in AA, the stories are the same, only the details are different.
If this fool thinks these people are famous for being dead, then he has no idea what he's talking about. He goes on to diss Hendrix as if he were nothing but another hotshot guitar hero -- the man reinvented his instrument in the same way that Paganini reinvented the violin or Bach reinvented the organ.
I wouldn't give this article any weight, it's written from a position of deep, deep ignorance.
ETA: Link -- www.latimes.com/news/printedition/opinion/la-oe-lucas1-2008aug01,0,2845821....-
I agree Wisco, well said.
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He wrote the more famous for it...not famous for it.
Again, I agree that this writer goes over the top...but his point of drugs and alcohol not being pretty is a good one. (again, regardless of the bottom line on Ledger)
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I agree with others who said he should be judged based only on his work. I'd hate to see him win just because he died just as much as I'd hate to see him be excluded because of the way he may have lived.-
Thanks for answering the question!
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There seems to be an underlying assumption in a lot of comments here that if it turned out that Heath Ledger was a "druggie" he should be condemned as a human being, whether or not we still value him as an artist. It's wnderful to know that the BC crowd has so much compassion for people with problems.
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I posted it on that blog for dear old Mr. Scrooge, and I will repost it here:
You might want to start by watching the movie.
I have a review of it - www.squidflicks.com/reviews/featured-films/the-dark-knight/#content -
Heath Ledger's performance should not be judged over the allegation that he was an addict. It should be judged over how effective and enthralling it was.
His character and personality must not be a condition upon which he's nominated. -
Bah. Who cares? Really?
He's dead, he didn't ruin the movie, and the universe is not contained within the microcosm of Hollywood Celebrity news.-
It isn't?! I'm... well, shocked.
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Since so many people have contributed their two cents to this query, I'll add mine:
In my opinion, Heath Ledger's performance in "The Dark Knight" was terrific -- manic, nuanced and deeply disturbing. Whether it is the best performance of the year, however, remains to seen. After all, we've yet to enter Oscar season and many of the year's so-called serious films have yet to be released.
(Speaking of Oscar season, Warner Brothers plans to re-release "Dark Knight" in January so it can be considered "in contention").
Like any other awards ceremony, the Academy Awards are controlled by several factors, including the breadth and depth of the field of contenders, their individual performances, the films in which they appear (dramatic roles tend to win over comedic ones, for instance), and the Academy voters' personal opinions of said contenders and their film careers.
If Warner Brothers wants to present Ledger's performance "For Your Consideration," I'd say it's up to the Academy to decide -- not measly ol' me or you.
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