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How do you feel about the prohibition of women priests in the Catholic Church?
Posted by rachaelbliss • 5/30/08 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: apostles, excommunication, pope benedict, presbyters, women priests
People Power Granny is mad tonight at the Pope because he says that he will excommunicate anyone who ordains women in the Catholic Church. What do you think of this prohibition on women priests? Vote in my poll and let's see what the majority of people think about this.
User Comments
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I say excommunicate the Pope!
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I've never understood this tradition of male priests, and celebacy. My university studies focuses on 2nd century literature ... and there is lots of evidence that women taught and even ran churches from their homes.
I wouldn't go so far as to exommunicate the Pope, but then again I'm not Catholic. I do think the Catholic church, like many religious organizations, cherry pick what they want from ancient texts. That's what happens when people are in charge.-
My incle was a Roman Catholic Priest for over 35 years. He left the priesthood. This subject was one of the reasons why he decided to leave. He could not codone sexism in God's church.
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It's not as if he has a choice. It's been infallibly declared, and anyone who ordains a woman priest is violating direct doctrinal teachings of the church--excommunication is a formality at that point, since that person has already rejected the authority of the church.
This is also not news--it's been happening for years.-
Why be mad? Remove yourself from the institution. Give the tithes and donations you previously directed to the institution to directly to the poor, sick and needy, take part in the eucharist with other christians, live a life based on the new covenant and strive to become less ego-driven and more christ-like every day -- problem solved. -
Was she ever part of "the institution"? I've never seen any indication of that.
Also, TT, what other Christian denomination OFFERS the eucharist, besides the Orthodox churches (which also do not ordain women)? -
Madame x - Other Christian denominations offer communion, I was a member of the United Church for most of my life and we had communion, as does the Anglican Church ... and they both ordain women.
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Communion and the Eucharist are not the same thing, Drowsey--although I believe that you are correct that the Anglican church offers the Eucharist.
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Yes, the Anglin church does and they also ordain women. And I think there would be many who feel 'communion' and 'the eucharist' are one in the same.
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hi madamex. The ban on women's ordination has never been infallibly declared though you're right about it's not being open to discussion. Pp. John Paul II wrote an apostolic letter, ORDINATIO SACERDOTALIS, about it in 1994.
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@drwseymonkey
It is my understandin that Roman Catholics believe that their "eucharist" is the ONLY "real" eucharist. They also believe that ONLY they are the true children of God and believers in Christ and that anyone else claiming to be a christian isn't one until they convert to catholicism.-
TT - I know lots of women in the Catholic church who are torn by this. Several of the women I know are nuns. They love the church but disagree with this issue in particular. They've explained it to me that they just can't remove themselves from the church, that they are catholic, and that they'd rather stay within the organization and try to make changes that way, then leave it. Some did leave for a time but felt lost. I have a great deal of respect for them whichever road they chose, but I do know that leaving is not always the option they choose, even if they do disagree with the way things are done.
Ah well, you removed your comment .. lol so now this one doesn't make sense. But that's okay! -
tt - re the eucharist ... yes I know they do ... but not all christian denominations think that way.
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No, TT, that's not the issue at all. The issue is that Roman Catholics, Orthodox Christians (and possibly Anglicans) believe that the Eucharist is truly the body of Christ, whereas all other Christian denominations teach that communion is purely symbolic. It is not simply that the Catholic/Orthodox churches believe the other churches aren't offering up the true body of Christ--the vast majority of Christian denominations make no claim to.
A little OT, but the rest of your assumptions about the Catholic view are dead wrong, too--I'm surprised you missed the recent mainstream news coverage about the Pope's statement on the role of other Christian denominations in the salvation of the world.
In fact, the Catholic church is one of the few Christian denominations that teaches that people who don't follow its teachings (and who aren't Christian at all) can make it to heaven.
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I've heard that line from many of them too. IMO they are brainwashed and pathetic but that's by their choice. It's by their free will that they remain within a structure that mocks the very teachings of he, who name as their leader. I respect their right to choose. I do not respect the choice they make. We agree to disagree without becoming disagreeble and life goes on.
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Any special reason for the hostility? I don't agree with all of your beliefs, but I'd certainly never class you as "pathetic" and "brainwashed" for holding them...I think you're an intelligent, expressive, goodhearted person who happens to have arrived at some conclusions that I think are erroneous. I would have liked to think you had the same respect for me.
I'm surprised that you consider calling people pathetic and brainwashed "agreeing without being disagreeable". I think it's quite disagreeable. -
@Madame X
Drowseymonkey said:
"TT - I know lots of women in the Catholic church who are torn by this. Several of the women I know are nuns. .."
www.blogcatalog.com/discuss/entry/how-do-you-feel-about-the-prohibition-of-...
I replied to her. here www.blogcatalog.com/discuss/entry/how-do-you-feel-about-the-prohibition-of-...
I have openly shared my hostility towards the Catholic Church with nuns and women in the RC church. They are my personal friends. I used the very same words that I used here. We agreed to disagree about their their choice. We see each other frequently and continue to enjoy one another's company just as we have for years. So the question is why are you getting all huffy and puffy? I have a right to my opinion and the right to speak freely and to share it. -
TT - I think you may enjoy the link I posted down a bit further, altho I'm not sure if this type of reading intersts you. But I find it fascinating. Of course, I read these types of text books like others read novels! So I'm probably biased.
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@DrowseyMonkey
I do not choose to give any more of my time to this thread. -
TT, I'm not "huffy and puffy" and I agree that you have the right to state you're opinion. I'm simply disappointed to learn that your opinion is that I and people who believe as I do are "pathetic and brainwashed". It contradicts many kind things you've said to me in these forums and on my blogs in the past, and I'm sorry to learn it. Since that is what you think, you are of course entitled to say so.
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WOW what happened here???
I always thought the church was a spiritual woman and if we are denying women to be in their own church, that is one empty church.
Personally the patriarchs must be so filled with fear that a woman cannot even be housed in her own church.
Seeing that the Patriarchs have been living in cocubinage for years and the book of revelations point to the Churches being unclean and unholy can only mean that they are this way now under the rule of the patriarchy.-
Jeunelle, I'm not sure what you mean when you say "what has happened here"? Although some historians believe that women were once ordained in the church, that has not been the case for at least several hundred years, and quite possibly ever. So nothing has really "happened".
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madame x - you mean 'ordained in the catholic church' There's lots of historic evidence that women ran churches in antiquity, and of course lots of churches today that have ordained women. It's just not been the case in the Catholic Church ... which isn't the only church.
Here's some interesting reading, I got lots more
www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/religion/first/women.html -
Yes, Drowsey, that's exactly what I meant...since that's what's being discussed in this thread.
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Well Madamex what I meant about "what has happened here", was I had no idea any of this was going on. I mean I knew men generally hate to see women run things in general but the church for God's sakes is a woman. When they are denying women from partaking in the church that is like a empty house without a lady of the house. Denying the woman in the church is denying the holy spirit who happens to be female. Are they really that crazy???
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I don't think they're denying them participation, but the Catholic Church has never allowed women to be priests.
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This is the same thing to me, I see no reason why she can't be a priests.
You know ago when Sinead O'Connor cussed out the pope and tore his picture up on Saturday Night Live, a lot of people say she was crazy and gave her the worst time but I don't think what she did was a big deal. If you can't cuss the pope, who can you cuss?
Especially when he is now seen wearing prada sneakers for God's sakes.-
Oh I forgot to add, "the devil wears prada". HAHHAHAHAHA
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Naa Ahh robertstevenson no negative slanting here by me, I know for a fact the pope wears Prada. Just telling the truth. But you know what Jack would say "You can't handle the truth".
That last sentence applies only to some. First of all let talk about his robes.
Have you seen the wealth of the pope's clothing?.
I mean one of his robe's could feed a small nation for crying out loud.
24kt gold enlayed or encrusted robes and prada shoes, a pope mobile and lots more.
Good God. Jesus Christ, the son of God didn't have all these fancies.
So if I can't criticize the pope, who can you criticize, hmmmmm -
I think they should have a Black Pope
and I bet he would probably look something like Snoop Dog driving a Cadilac Escalade
and look like a decked out Black Pimp. This is just humor here so please don't get too offended. I personally don't see the difference between the two.
They both have their own Pope Pimp Mobiles, wear lots of Gold and Prada Sneakers
and have a huge following. Wake up people, the truth shall set you free.
Lord a merci
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Why is all discussion of religion immediately protested in general discussion threads, but this topic is allowed to run? Is it because of the topic's negative slant against Catholicism?-
born and raised RC and I concur with madameX' statements. I've never been taught that other Christians aren't going to heaven or that we have to "convert" anyone.
Personally I'd prefer to see women priests, as I suspect women played a much larger role in early (very early)Christianity than we have historically given credit for.
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What the pope says is of NO importance to me. I value what the Bible teaches over a man.
Granted, women in church leadership can be controversial amongst many Christians. We know that in the kingdom there is neither male nor female and that the gifts and callings of God are irrevocable.
Consider Esther or Deborah.. or many other women leaders in scripture...Awesome! -
Yes kdawg68 I agree and I also suspect that many were fed to Lions during Roman rule.
Maybe later we will have more documented proof on that subject.
But right now the churches are unholy and unclean and buggering is predominant. -
@Madame X
re: www.blogcatalog.com/discuss/entry/how-do-you-feel-about-the-prohibition-of-...
I do like you very much. I always have and I still do. I have never said anything on these forums or in your blogs that I did not mean. I happen to believe that any christian who thinks they need an institution to practice their faith has been brainwashed and is pathetic because IMO they have been mislead.
Romans 10:9
If thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
There is no longer...male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3: 28). We're all one in Christ.
Ephesians 2:8-9
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast.
Revelation 22:14
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life.
In an effort to accurately represent the teachings of the Roman Catholic church, references are cited from an authoritative source, the new Catechism of the Catholic Church, imprimatur from eminent Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger and the "Holy See," copyright 1994. Ratzinger is Prefect of the "Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith."
Salvation through Faith by Grace Alone
Rediscovery of the biblical doctrine of justification by faith alone, more than any other truth, ignited the Protestant Reformation. On what grounds is a sinner accepted in the presence of a holy God? Acceptance is based on the "righteousness of God in Jesus Christ" (see Romans 3:19-24 below). It is a righteousness wholly outside the sinner, accomplished by Christ, and imputed to him through the one God-given means -- faith in the Savior, acceptance of His gift of eternal life.
The Bible says:
Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. Romans 3:19-24 (NIV, emphasis added)
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—not by works, so that no one can boast. -Ephesians 2:8-9 (NIV, emphasis added)
(also see Romans 5:1, 11:6; Galatians 3:6; Ephesians 2:5, 3:7; Philippians 3:9; Titus 2:11, 3:7; I Timothy 1:14)
Catholicism says:
Man is justified by baptism plus faith, plus additional works (see Catholic Catechism Ref. Nos. 1265-1271, 1987-1995). The Holy Spirit's transforming work in the sinner becomes the grounds, along with faith, for justification. Most good Catholics are therefore very concerned with "being good enough," "meriting," and "earning" their salvation.
The Catholic Catechism says of baptism, for example:
" Baptism not only purifies from all sins , but also makes the neophyte 'a new creature,' an adopted son of God, who has become a 'partaker of the divine nature,' member of Christ and co-heir with him, and a temple of the Holy Spirit" (Catechism 1265, emphasis added). "... Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians" (Catechism 1271).
The Priestly System
The Old Testament clearly established a priesthood (the Levites) to serve Israel. This earthly priesthood was a symbol of the Messiah's eternal priesthood. The book of Hebrews explains its purpose and fulfillment. Historic Protestantism, because of its study of the Scriptures, proclaimed the "universal priesthood of all believers." The special office of priest was fulfilled in our Savior, and thus came to an end in Him.
Although Catholicism acknowledges this universal priesthood, it sustains a "weak and beggarly element" of the old covenant and assigns to its priests remarkable power as pastors of the church. This system is essential to the power of the Catholic Church and cannot be justified by the Bible.
One of the finest scholars of Roman Catholic Scripture, Raymond E. Brown, shocked Catholics when he discovered that:
When we move from the Old Testament to the New Testament, it is striking that while there are pagan priests and Jewish priests on the scene, no individual Christian is ever specifically identified as a priest. The Epistle to the Hebrews speaks of the high priesthood of Jesus by comparing his death and entry into heaven with the actions of the Jewish high priest who went into the Holy of Holies in the Tabernacle once a year with a offering for himself and for the sins of his people (Hebrews 9:6-7).
But it is noteworthy that the author of Hebrews does not associate the priesthood of Jesus with the Eucharist or the Last Supper; neither does he suggest that other Christians are priests in the likeness of Jesus. In fact, the once-for-all atmosphere that surrounds the priesthood of Jesus in Hebrews 10:12-14, has been offered as an explanation of why there are no Christian priests in the New Testament period.
Biblical Protestantism repudiates the Catholic priesthood system, and would consider its proposed imposition a radical violation of its conscience before God.
Reference
1. Raymond E. Brown, Priest and Bishop: Biblical Reflections (New York: Paulist Press, 1970).
There is no longer...male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus" (Galatians 3: 28). We're all one in Christ.
Biblical Protestantism repudiates the Catholic priesthood system, and would consider its proposed imposition a radical violation of its conscience before God.
This is where I am coming from when I say "mislead". It astonishes me that educated people who can read their Bibles can come to any conclusion other than that they are all one in Christ.-
Exactly TT, where does all this inner division come from?
I bet it comes from the same place where hatred, bigotry, racism and stereotypes come from. So not letting women paticipate as priest will also help to fuel these fires.
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Like most religious things, I find it silly.-
IMO following any spiritual path is not about pledging an allegiance to doctrine formulated by men and it is not is it about relying on scriptures written by both men and women. The latter provide guidelines, inspiration and contain wisdom.
IMO spirituality is about experience . Those who do have experience have different explanations for what they experience. However, the following are universally admirable characteristics, regardless of which path on may follow:
dana = authentic generosity (charitable giving of the self and sharing of possessions, donation)
metta = selfless love and good will toward all beings (loving kindness)
karuna = compassion (respect, acceptance, forgiveness)
mudita = altruistic joy filled with peace and contentment (appreciative joy at the success and good fortune of others)
sila = self discipline -abstaining from physical and vocal actions that cause harm to oneself and others
uppekka = equanimity (an inclusive state of open mind free of attachment, aversion, bigotry, craving, ignorance and intolerance)
These are the essence of teachings of both Buddha and of Jesus. They are also found in other traditions as well.
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And women really have nothing to fear because even if women are later not allowed to participate in physical Church period, they can hold Church inside themselves and to still have the experience they are seeking.
Let the physical Church be filled with men it will later be destroyed, as it is not living up to the true teachings of the Lord. -
I worship baking soda, it has no real rules.
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I think baking soda rules the world, certainly the computer, because when I try to open up the discussion thread my computer locks up!
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Yes, but it does not demand tithing OR require you to be of the penile persuasion to open the thread.
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I believe the law legalizing the stoning of witches should be re-enacted.-
@Jack
There's no way I believe that for a single moment.
If I did I'd wonder what was next.
Support for the reinstatement of slavery?
Or, perhaps another indigenous culture crushing campaign?
More war mongering? Another crusades?
Nah, I can tell you don't really mean it Jack.
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Interesting. I thought women priests were starting to be pretty common in the catholic church.-
The "good ole boys" association decided to clamp down on this, while they were playing poker, drinking too much, and smoking cigars awhile back.
Sorry, bad joke...couldn't help myself.
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