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I Forgive You...You Liar! No, I Really Do...I Think?
Posted by LynneaUrania • 2/19/09 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: forgiveness, reconciliation, throwing catfights out of the window
I tried this idea in one of our groups and thought I'd try a similar one on the main board.
Back in my Bible College days, I encountered a lot of studies with names full of glittering generalities:
Eschatology: Study of Last Things
Christology: Study of Christ
Theology: Study of God
Soteriology: Study of Salvation
But there was one study which I found surprisingly absent: APHEOLOGY...the Study of the Process of Forgiving (from the Greek Apheo = I forgive). When I mentioned it anywhere, I typically received stares like deer caught in the headlights. In most cases, Apheology just ISN'T in their vocabularies.
Doesn't that strike people as a bit weird?
I mean, here was a religion who claimed to have a corner on the subject of forgiveness. And at the same time, Holy Hill might have qualified as the Capital of the Catfight.
You'd think that such lofty religious training should have emphasis upon the subject of bringing people together, of forgiveness, and of reconciliation with one another. They should be producing negotiators and mediators. But we don't usually find that happening. And when people do claim to forgive, it's often in a way that's instantaneous because it's presumed that God's forgiveness is instantaneous in the same way. It typically lasts till one steps out of the church door and the whole catfight starts all over again.
So this has been something I've pondered for a long time...just what IS the PROCESS by which humans really do come to terms and finally reconcile?
In the 60's a plastic surgeon named Dr. Maxwell Maltz published "Psycho Cybernetics" and used the term "Therapeutic Forgiveness" to describe what all people must to for the sake of health and sanity. Though Maltz was Christian, he recognized this as a universal need, not a sectarian one.
I'll hold my ideas on this at first. I'd like to hear more general feedback on what really is a basic human need...THE PROCESS OF HUMAN RECONCILIATION.
User Comments
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just what IS the PROCESS by which humans really do come to terms and finally reconcile?
Great observations and question Lynnea.
I do believe that the process of reconciliation, or forgiveness varies for the individual. Some people are just naturally inclined to forgive (honestly) than others. This could be genetics, it could be environment, mos likely a combination of the two. But I believe that the process remains the same for all but the extremes.
Much like any other should searching, heart wrenching, or difficult self process - you have denial. Denial, or disbelief. that act A even happened. "No, no way, that couldn't, it didn't, did that really just happen?"
Then guilt "How could I have been so stupid to believe/allow/etc act A to occur?"
Then anger - the phase where forgiveness is the last thing on one's mind.
This is the tricky part - when the anger subsides, I think the person has to reason through the first three steps of reconciliation again with a clearer mind. Most people do. They admit that it happened, come to terms with the blame, and let the anger subside for more reasonable thought. This part takes a lot of time.
After a while the need to reconcile, or at the very least let go of it (some things cannot be reconciled for various reasons) becomes apparent when the person decides that it:
Wasn't a big deal in the first place,
Misses the person and wants them back in their life,
Decides that the person is truly in need of forgiveness because they are genuinely sorry,
etc..
I never adhered to the "forgive and forget" ideology. One can forgive, but they don't forget.-
about 'forgive and forget' - I couldn't agree more, Anok. Yes, you can forgive. But there will always be a niggle in your back of your mind 'what if they do/say it again?' The question is whether you can overcome the niggle or whether it causes the forgiveness process (which you very accurately describe, imo) to need to be started again. -
I've known so many who asked for forgiveness so that they could get me to expose myself to greater abuse. Forgiveness shouldn't make someone a fool. I agree with you.
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That's a new word for me..."niggle." I'll have to remember that one.
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Yup, to expand that - the notion that we can forget isn't accurate in my mind. Our experiences shape us - and unless it's selective amnesia (which does occur for traumatic events) then you literally can't forget, lest you'll also forget the lesson learned.
One thing I've learned in my marriage, is that I don't forget things, neither does my husband. But over time, those things are simply no longer important. They do go "out of sight, out of mind" but they're not forgotten. -
Let's see...how long have you been forgiving...um..were married?
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yes, they become less important and can be pushed to the back of your mind. but they're still lurking (like small pink aardvarks, hiding under cupboards)and can spring out on you when provoked!
as for 'niggle' - its one of my favourite words! -
Well, my husband and I have been together in various forms of friendship and/or marriage for...16 years. (I had to think about that, damn!)
So, yeah 16 years of learning to forgive him. Because he is a dumbass. Believe you me.
Mylissa LOL @pink lurking aardvarks
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I can relate, Anok. I was in a 21-year bad marriage to the biggest deadhead you ever saw.
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To be clear, my marriage isn't bad, I love my husband dearly and he does try to be a good husband. He's just...an idiot sometimes. Well, most of the time, but not always in a bad way
I don't know how you would have survived a 21 year bad marriage - it boggles my mind when I try to think about it. I give you credit and much respect for our strength and perseverance. -
I don't understand how anyone could stay in a bad marriage for that long either--but many people do. My mother was in hell with her marriage to my father--an intelligent, educated woman and still she stayed on, wasting the best years of her life with him.
I think a lot of people don't believe they can do better. I have girlfriends who are with men who treat them badly--even abusively (not physical but definitely verbal). These are smart, creative, beautiful women and it is hard to imagine why they 'settle' for someone who treats them less than lovingly.
I am so blessed to be married to a man who has so much integrity--more than anyone I have ever known. He's nothing BUT supportive to me--has never said or done anything unkind to me. I'm still amazed I attracted such a wonderful guy when my own role model for men (my father) was pretty much monstrous.
But when I went into recovery, I spent almost 10 years single, learning about myself, learning to love myself--and most importantly, learning to *respect* myself. When I was ready to start dating, I did so with the knowledge that I would never settle for someone who wasn't worthy of me--that I would go to the grave single before I did.
And guess what? I opened my energy to meet the best guy in the world and when my energy was open to that--he was there. That's really the key, I think. -
Mytyler - yes, that is an excellent point. Finding oneself before trying to combine forces with another is key.
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I have never heard that word before, but it's certainly a good one. On the subject of forgiveness I think women are more inclined towards it then men are. I don't know if this is something to do with their innate maternal instinct or social conditioning.
I think to really forgive someone for a terrible wrong is one of the hardest things you can do and I'm sure it's a quite rare event, sadly.-
OMG!!! The Aardvark is serious!!!
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I'm always serious.
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i agree with MylissaAriana, once they did it again, there's still a tendency that they will do it again.. Yes its easy to forgive , its for me huh? but still i cant forget what he/she did, the good thing in me is that, i dont have hatred inside!!.its just that i cant forget..
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I think forgiveness depends in large part on the nature of the act to be forgiven. If it was a geniune lapse or mistake that was not intended to hurt then forgiveness should come sooner or later. But if the intent was to do harm, then that's a little harder to let slide. In the former instance, I may forgive even if I don't forget. In the latter instance, I am less inclined to forgive and will certainly never forget.-
Do you find, that you still need to let go just to keep your own sanity?
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Actually, I'm pretty much a live and let live guy. To me, it is just life in the big city. So to that extent, I guess I do let it go. I don't let the acts of others define my sense of well-being or sanity. I have enough trouble keeping track of myself.
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Thank you for this insight Windroot. I think sometimes, in our pain, anger and hurt of being betrayed, we forget to realize that most acts of betrayal are never directly INTENDED to inflict pain on us. Even though in the back of their mind they should have known it would, lol.... the intent is key.
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I wrote a long post out when I first read this eloquently posed question. Then I deleted it because I wasn't sure I wanted to get into it. Here's a shorter version.
Forgiveness is something I have struggled mightily with during my 15 year journey of recovery. Things were done to me as a child that were simply unspeakable. When I first thought of forgiveness, I thought of the "I'm sorry/I forgive you" aspect only--I thought my forgiveness that I would be 'excusing a bad behavior' when clearly there are behaviors that there are no excuses for.
Forgiveness isn't always about that, though--forgiveness is letting go of something that has power over you. Forgiveness (for me) was letting go of the belief that I was at the root of the immoral/illegal acts that were committed against me. With my father, forgiveness was letting go of my belief that I deserved to be wronged. With my mother, it was something entirely different--I forgave her that she didn't see/wasn't able to stop the abuse against me. In both cases, I recognized the complexities of how each of my parent's occurred; forgiveness in each case was very different.
I almost deleted this again! Oh well--as I said, it's a complicated subject for me (but one most definitely worthy of discussion).-
This is great stuff. And for those of us who have been involved in the sex industry in some way, the issue of forgiving one's self is a huge one. Great insight.
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good for you for being able to forgive in the way that you have done. its true that 'forgiveness' comes in many forms.
I admit that I struggle to forgive and can be very petty, but once I have forgiven, I tend to forget/put aside quite quickly - the (dis)advantage of a truly abysmal memory.
I also think forgiveness is a reflection of the strength of the forgiver and shouldn't be influenced. It bugs me so much when people say 'forgive me?'.
'Yes. maybe. when I'm good and ready'. -
Thank you Lynnea--and I agree with you. Forgiving oneself is the most important act of forgiveness that any one of us can do.
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Well, well said Melinda.
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Mylissa brought up something that touched off an interesting memory. One day I was reading from The Iliad in the library and a schizophrenic woman approached me, somehow imagining that I was Mother God. She kept begging me for forgiveness because, to quote her:
"You created me."
Her words got me to thinking. How many people become monsters of our own creation because of our skewed perceptions and prejudices? She might have been insane, but there was a bit of wisdom in the madness.-
OMG, I did?! yay me!
But you're right, we can become so insular, so tangled up with our own thoughts and obsessions and bizarre ideas that we can get lost in them, becoming someone or somthing totally different.
With that deep and meaningful statement, I'm off home where I will deplore the lack of an internet connection, while being tempted cruelly by being able to read blogcatalog on my phone but not post.
Yes, I forgive my housemate for being utterly useless and still not getting the internet sorted out... really, I do. ahem. *leaves while watching the shadows for lurking aardvarks* -
Reminds me of Othello and even though a first he tries to forgive Desdemona, that little voice in his head keeps gnawing away at him.
@Mylissa, Aardvarkist! -
not an Aardvarkist, just easily spooked. its the nose you see. its creepy... *runs*
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It was you, Mylissa? My you had strange eyes that day! You'd look out the window where it was sunny and your pupils dilated. Then you looked at me and they became very small as if looking at a great light. I assure you, I feel very unworthy to be prayed to!
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if it was me, I have some impressive powers to travel such huge distances so quickly!
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@ Mylissa, Well you know what they say about the size of an Aardvarks nose, rrrrrrrrr.
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lmao. yes, I do know what they say. but I'm surprised you've brought it up, its not exactly complimentary...
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Forgiveness is a big thing in my life. I have to forgive because I feel as if I don't then that person/persons and what they did will always be connected to me somehow, like an invisible thread... Hard to explain. It is my way of releasing myself from the connection that they made to me... I guess this would be a spiritual thing since you can't see the connection.
I am a Christian and forgiveness is taught that it is a must do... But it isn't taught on how to.. As @LynneaUrania found out in Bible School. It can be considered one of the hardest things to do in your life.
I have had some awful things happen to me that I won't get into here because it is personal, but I have forgiven the people involved, freeing myself from the ugliness.
I will never never never forget, first of all because the things that have happened, I have learned from.. If I forget then that valuable thing I learnt would be gone too..And I may end up finding myself in the same or similar predicament. But the vile hate and anger that I held in myself is gone when I forgave...
Did this happen overnight... No... But when the evilness pops back up in my mind I just say to myself this has already been forgiven, time to move on. Plus I can use my experiences to help someone else!
Forgiveness is not a light matter.. Also if I use my human tendencies wrong and have hurt or offended someone I always try to be quick in apologizing and to ask for forgiveness. Which also can be a struggle.-
what they did will always be connected to me somehow, like an invisible thread... Hard to explain. It is my way of releasing myself from the connection that they made to me... I guess this would be a spiritual thing since you can't see the connection.
This is true in my religion as well, I know exactly what you are talking about.
Sometimes forgiveness is simply releasing the thread that connects you to the person, thus giving them power over you. -
@Anok! Yes! that is exactly what I mean!
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Hooray!
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@Anok--exactly--removing that thread and freeing yourself. This can be such a forgiving act.
@Arcticulates--good for you.
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I'm going to throw this idea from a Gnostic source out to you and I know that for many it will go clear over their heads. I read an item from The Chaldean Oracles of Zoroaster one day and it got me thinking about the subject of forgiveness from the perspective of Magi. It talked about the sacrifice of a "stone." When I looked at the linguistics behind it, I was floored.
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@LynneaUrania
Have to find the exact quotation and return!-
You have the Chaldean Oracles? It reads, "When you see a terrestrial demon approaching, cry aloud! And sacrifice the Stone Mnizourin."
In the 70's, an intern archaeologist Denise Schmandt-Bessarat was given a bag of what were called, "bullae," to study while on a site in Iraq. She studied these and came to a startling conclusion. These bullae were receipts. She conjectured that in Mesopotamia, writing developed not from imaging as was the case with Egyptian heiroglyphs, but from counting and algorithm.
The Chaldean Oracles were originally in Aramaic as was the book of Daniel. It was here where I found a linguistic connection to Mnizourin...and it put a completely different spin on the Magi. -
In Belshazzar's last bash in Babylon, a hand was said to be writing on the wall..."Numbered, numbered, weighed, and divided." "M'ne, m'ne, teqel ufarsin." M'ne as a concept of numbering is like the mneia (remembrance) in Greek. A tzor is a stone (tzorim plural)...the stone of Mnizourin...a form of "the stone...an account of stones..."
What would such a stone be to us? How about the stoniness in our hearts that blocks the flow of tears and interferes with dreaming and innocence?
If any issue might be big as far as confronting a threatening demon, you'd think that keeping accounts of wrongs might be one. -
I wonder if that links into the jewish tradition of placing a stone on the grave when saying Kaddish.
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In which case, did these Magi know something about the human psyche that we don't?
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Donkey dear, that is an interesting observation!
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I'm not just a pretty face.
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Fascinating.
Hmmm....
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Denial plays a huge part of the problem a failure to confront the issue.
I think that we are in denial of the issue and so we choose to come back to it again and again
in attempts to fix it but we never do because denial is standing in the way.
Denial was a problem that Peter had with Christ and Christ already knew it and forgave Peter
for his shortcomings but the problem wasn't with Christ, it was with Peter as he denied Christ.
Most women in abusive relationships are also in denial and stay years in an abusive relationship knowing full well that something is wrong and they are in danger and it's time to get out of it before
they loose their sanity or worst, their lives.
The Churches itself are in denial as they harbor some of the worlds nastiest sexual predators amongst their sheep while pretending to be good shepherds to the people or their flock, allowing these wolves to enter into the herds of sheep.
There is no school today that I am aware of that can effectively teach people ways to vent and let out anger, betrayal or past wrongs. There are no classes in high school that teaches teenagers how to effectively channel this energy into something good.
I see no outlet anywhere for this energy to go to and slowly die, unless you are into the occult where some of this energy is taught where you can channel it into effective magic.
This energy is repeatedly fed by our society, government, media and these churches and the only way is for you to privately work on your own issues and try to resolve them which may take years, private time and personal effort.
Attonement and repentance are two clues to the puzzle but in order to be free your repentance has to be something you mean, it has to come from the heart.
Repentance is the key to re-align relationships that are off track but only if you are ready for the re-alignment.-
@Jeunelle:
Good points. There are also a lot of men in the same kind of abusive relationships that can't or won't leave for various reasons.
Repent means stopping and turning around I believe, so if you have truly repented then that means you have completely stopped the offensive, and are headed in a new direction.
As Agapelife said (further down) there are many scriptures in the Bible that refer to forgiveness. But it doesn't say it's an easy thing to do or to ask for. There are many Christians that try to live a life of forgiveness and mercy and compassion, but there are also a lot that only use it as a weapon to control... which is sad.
Forgiveness is healing to the mind, body and soul. It also removes fear, anger, depression etc. Forgiveness is amazing in how it works. -
Arcticulates...Yes forgiveness is healing.
Great is repentance, for it brings healing to the world.
Great is repentance for it brings redemption.
I sincerely think that once we realize that we are not smarter than the serpent on our own
and our efforts, will and labor are not enough to push us beyond our own imperfection,
we then come to see that it is futile to resist something that we cannot escape from via our own efforts. We will come to realize that we need outside help and those who come to realize this may stand a chance of survival and the rest who don't do perish.
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@LynneaUrania - introspective thread. Studying any subject involves the mind and forgiveness/mercy involves the heart. The university course on Christology did not touch forgiveness,you're right. Yet, that is what Jesus was all about - forgiveness and Mercy. The frequency of the subject of Forgiveness/Mercy in scriptures are too many to quote, so I picked on two significant ones Mt:18:21-23, Lk:23:34
If Christians really practise Christianity, Mercy, Forgiveness and Compassion will be in the forefront. No it is not easy to forgive for us Humans, but like Jesus said to Peter "not x7 but x77 or without limit. That is not easy without Divine assistance. Yet forgiveness is vital for healing and health in my experience. -
Some months ago I deduced this: that since forgiveness is a resolution of hurt and injury, it's really a resolution of grief. It may not be the same level of grief that one might experience in a traumatic loss, but it is a minor grief. In that case, the GRIEF CYCLE may apply to forgiveness as well. The grief cycle follows thus:
1. Denial
2. Anger
3. Depression
4. Acceptance
One could assist in helping the grieved through the stages of the cycle but the sequence itself appears to be fixed. Would there be stages of forgiveness appropriate to each stage? If so, then we would approach forgiveness differently for each. Would you agree?-
YES these 4 steps is what helped me overcome a nasty experience with my last relationship and it has served me as a reminder to take example from.
There most certainly was denial on my part.
Then the anger and I mean seething red like hell red.
Then a depression when I fell into a deep sleep causing me to sleep for 3 days straight
without waking once out of the 3 days that I was comatose.
I was emotional and physically drained as if a vampire had sucked me dry.
Later slowly I regained my strength but only when I asked for and receiving help and I accepted the help and what happened to me but definitely won't forget. I went a little further with repentance and atonement and even asking forgiveness for the perpetrator, it seemed to do the trick. -
I see you as the wise in this quote.
i like to think of myself like the wise also.
"The stupid neither forgive nor forget; the naive forgive and forget; the wise forgive but do not forget."
Thomas Szasz, The Second Sin (1973) "Personal Conduct" -
Here is a little something I'm not afraid to share with you.
During the 3rd day I felt an invisible hand cut a cord that was attached to my stomach area
(possibly unbiblical cord) and then I felt the cord slide back into my stomach the way it does automatically like into a vacuum cleaner.
Someone/something had cut my emotional cords to my connection or attachment to this person and I do not have a emotional connection to this person to this day, though I will not forget what I went through, neither do I want to forget. -
It sounds like you went though some tough times. Emotional connections are the hardest to overcome. and that experience you had sounds like something unique.
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Jeunelle's experience is something to come back to later on, because it's a significant one. But lets back up a step. Seeing that we can, at least in the situations described, follow the sequence of the Grief Cycle, then perhaps forgiveness can be approached as a series of releases this way:
Stage 1: Release because you don't believe the other has actually done harm.
Stage 2: Release because the one who afflicted you is not now part of your circle.
Stage 3: Release because the one who has afflicted you is no longer relevant.
Stage 4: Release as one who is truly ready to amend the relationship.
If this is reasonable, then we might find ourselves to be too harsh with one another when that withdrawal period comes between people. If we move the one harmed from one stage to the next as quickly as possible (varying of course according to the degree of injury), then we do more to restore relationships than if we simply judged the parties according to whether people are talking or not. -
There is no doubt in my mind after my experience that forgivesness caused the release
I needed to break free and there is no doubt in my mind that invisible hands were also at play.
The stages you described earlier above seem to be the correct sequence for me but I wonder if this sequence will work for everyone, possibly not as are problems may be individual.
What you do you think Lynnea? -
Of course it was, Jeunelle. I also think about the experience of Joseph when he finally revealed himself to his brothers who had sold him into slavery. He cried out, "Cause everyone to go out from me!" And when his staff went out, he revealed himself with tears.
Remember that item from the Chaldean Oracles..."Cry aloud! and sacrifice..." It strikes me that this is a sign of a final release at the 4th stage of reconciliation. The stone that has blocked the flow of tears has become dislodged, and the result is a catharsis. -
YES I understand exactly what you are saying here and it does strike a nerve for me,
yes it is a blockage but can be rectified. Yes a catharsis, most definitely a cleansing.
Catharsis (Ancient Greek: Κάθαρσις) is a Greek word meaning "purification", "cleansing" or "clarification." It is derived from the infinitive verb of Ancient Greek: καθαίρειν transliterated as kathairein "to purify, purge," and adjective Ancient Greek: καθαρός katharos "pure or clean." -
Last year after Samhain I took to heart what I call the Octad of Remembrance. There's a lot of commemorative events during the time from Samhain to Yule. During that time, I formed a bulla of my own recording what I had brought up in my own recapitulations.
On the "Night of Slaughter," I conducted a rite on the lines of The Chaldean Oracles. And as those things that appeared threatened, I asked myself, "Is THIS what you want? Is THIS what you want?" And I let out a cry that caused some nearby to run away. The catharsis was so psychologically powerful, to this day I can only recount anything of what was on that stone with great effort. Perhaps that's as much forgetting as one can possibly do? -
WOW sounds like a groovy moment.
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I just prefer to hold grudges....nothing like a good guilt trip to pull out at the right moment. Especially if the deciever does not change his or her ways.
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@fearless21....HA we should also discuss grudges as it is also an attachment
but yes if the deceiver does not change his or her ways, I do keep a very close eye on them.
I tend to keep an enemy closer sometimes and that is how the saying goes. -
This one sounds more like a post for your thread, Jeunelle.
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Lynnea is giving us the boot...hahahhahahaha
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Moi? I never give anyone the boot. I might put someone IN a boot, though, if this was a dungeon.
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Gawdess, what we do to reach that state of catharsis!
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I have no idea never been a fan of bondage, whips and chains.
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O give me a break, Jeunelle!
Like when I did the BDSM spoof in Arnou's party and you were so eager for an invitation? ROFL! -
Oh I forgot about that one...LMAO
but we are talking about Arnous here and he is sooooo sexy. -
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Forgiveness begins with yourself, because in any situation where forgiveness is needed even for another, there is always a need to forgive yourself for something. Only after you forgive yourself for whatever it is that you percieve you need forgiveness for, can you forgive another. Forgiveness is not saying or conceding what they did was right, but rather taking your power back and declaiming you will no longer allow yourself to be a victim of their power. You no longer seek revenge, or ill feelings, or thought at all. -
There does seem to be a connection to the laws of physics on this one...where any action also has an opposite action upon that which acts?
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To me, the act of forgiveness, as we all know is a choice. You either do or you don't. Ultimately, and depending on what you are forgiving, it is more therapeutic to forgive than it is to hold on to negative feelings of hatred and resentment.
So, how do you forgive? You basically just do it. It's not really hard to do, but what you should keep in mind is the experience. You should come out of it learning something more about the human condition.
thinking.today.com-
It's great where you're there already and blessed if the damage is so slight or your that your discipline is so cultured. More often than not with people, claims of forgiving turn out to be a front that extends the denial aspect.
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"claims of forgiving turn out to be a front that extends the denial aspect"
and here in lies the trap
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Forgiveness has nothing to do with denial, but rather facing the facts, and choosing to take back your power from another. As long as you allow their ill will to empower you, you allow them to have your power. It all comes down to a choice. Do you want to claim control and power over your life, or do you choose to let someone else to have power and control over your life. Do you choose to take control, or do you want to spend your life BLAMING whatever you can come up with for the situation and emotions YOU feel in your life.
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@searchingwithin
Amen. Perfectly said. -
Certainly true for the final aspect of forgiveness. Denial is the first thing one must face in order to move along the stages. And one needs to do that as quickly as possible.
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The denial aspect is very necessary and a very important piece of the puzzle.
You cannot reach the forgiveness stage without it.
Example: When Peter DENIED Christ, Christ still forgave Peter for his shortcomings. -
It seems to me that there are 2 kinds of denial expressed...one that is temporary in the process of the grief cycle, one that is more benign. The other is a denial that does not move onward..which is more dangerous and which indeed has nothing to do with forgiveness at all.
I must clarify this aspect of the stages of forgiveness as relating to the grief cycle. The releases aren't complete forgiveness until one has reached the 4th stage. The 4th stage is final and heartfelt, where all issues have finally run their course and one is fully able to begin anew.
Where issues aren't very damaging, the progression is very quick and one can let go very easily. if the damage is immense, it could take years to pass to the fourth stage. One who is observant of another person's position in the cycle can do a great deal of benefit to help that person to progress toward the final stage.
I expect this has been attempted by mediators and psychologists more generally. Are there any such people out there who might like to weigh in on this?
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I live by this quote:
"I can forgive, but I cannot forget, is only another way of saying, I will not forgive. Forgiveness ought to be like a canceled note—torn in two, and burned up, so that it never can be shown against one." Henry Ward Beecher
To forgive is a choice. To forget is a choice. If there are somethings that you can truly move on from, like a person cheating on you, then you may not be able to truly forgive.-
Forgive & Forget is tricky because it's something your mind cannot silence and you will remember the episode. I do think that if you say you forgave someone, don't bring up the issue and emotional baggage all over again, that is something that irritates me.
If you forgave someone don't keep bringing up what they did that pissed you off or what they didn't do. Silence it and move on but in order that don't forget and make the same mistake again, you should take example from it and yes remember or you may face a re-occurrence
of the same issue and you don't want that.
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lol It seemed that people wouldn't really run out of things to study! lol -
Let's digress to a bit of linguistic speculation. Seeing that the Greeks derived some of its culture from Phoenician traders, including their Aleph-Bet, I considered the possibility of a connection between the story of the Minotaur (the Bull of Minos) and Mnizourin. A final n is often what's called a "moveable nu," which may be dropped without injury to translation. And tauron (bull), even though its final nu designates a neuter gender, could likewise be dropped to leave the taur root, might a pun apply in a past century where taur is likened to tzor (stone)?
If Minotaur has a linguistic connection with Mnizourin, then what does that say about the myth of Theseus and the Minotaur? What is the Labyrinth? What are the virgins sacrificed to the Minotaur? And what about the scarlet thread that Theseus used to navigate his exit from the Labyrinth?
On Theseus: One might look at this name as theos (god) + se (you) + masculine ending. The god within you? The god that is the divine part of you? The god that reflects you? Any of these ideas could fit.-
Yes great observation, now that you bring it up I do see the similarities.
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For the sake of readers who might not get my drift, I am suggesting that the Labyrinth is consciousness itself, much in the same way as consciousness appears as an unfathomable abyss, being a structural archetype in dreams.
All who find themselves awakening in consciousness are as virgin souls. And in being afflicted by injury in the darkness of the Labyrinth, the Minotaur devours them, even as the weight of the stone blocks tears and interferes with innocence.
The scarlet thread may follow a similar line in Kabbalism where red refers to G'burah and the blood of Adam (deriving from Adamah - the earth as being red or Adom).
If this is true, then we might expect that the story of Theseus is much like the story of Perseus rescuing Andromeda from the Kraken. And the awakening of this story in our modern subliminal ways of coming to the rescue of damsels in distress, transforms a man in the eyes of the woman into a godlike being like Theseus...even to the point of being a sacrifice himself.
Our language of love runs deep into myth, and inspires us to greater conquests of our limitations...especially those of ourselves.
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Now thats a hard question to ask,on forgiving. like one member wrote its hard to forgive and also is harder to for give, I've been through this,my first wife of 22 years ,we'd probably had been married for 2 months or less, we were laying in bed and I told her how much I loved her,She turn to me and said she still loved her ex boyfriend, that stuck in my head for 22 years,why did I stay so long she was pregnant,so i stayed,3 kids 22 years later we divorced. I could never forgive her for that.theres more to the story but we'll leave it at that.
jessebsanythinggoes.blogspot.com/-
Perhaps the issue here isn't so much a need to forgive as a recognition that the human species is capable of having many and diverse types of relationships at once. By saying honestly that she loved another doesn't necessarily mean she did not love you or did not want to be married to you. Once one recognizes that fluidity of human nature, it can soften what would be a shock to one accustomed to an ethic that a spouse must love to the exclusion of all other types of love.
Even among Evangelicals, a husband or wife is supposed to be number 2 behind Messiah.
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Basic instincts = basic needs (for survival)
There are 5:
reproduction
self-preservation
hierarchy
territorialism
and ritualism
These are shared with most animals who have a brain.
Forgiveness is a subliminal guilt that compensates for another thing in the past.
However, if you look on the much larger map, it is clear to say that religion has been many a driving force to cause war (territorialism), but at the same time, give people a reason to live.
In the bible, does it not mention both 'eye for an eye' (Old Testament)
and on the contrary 'turn the other cheek' (New Testament).
You'll find that the interpretations of the Bible and even the Koran that it contradicts itself of peace and love with getting back what you deserve, and what God says in who's books.
In some Italian societies, Vendetta has been a constant cycle for centuries.
If someone killed my dad, I'd hate those who killed him - it would soon manifest into something potentially more murderous - or I could forgive, and jail the man who did for life, and help his family financially.
Maybe.
Who is to judge this?
Who's right does it belong to?
Forgiveness is a choice, not chosen often, as hate is upon an uncontrollable impulse - depending of course.-
Is hate really an uncontrollable impulse or is it an impulse that seems uncontrollable because the premises that allow hatred to happen are accepted? Some have more validity than others.
One that probably has less validity than we think is that of hierarchy because we are so prone to exalting our own egos higher than ego needs to be.
And the ritualism you mentioned is certainly a candidate for more fluidity than the absolutism religious bodies so often demand, precisely for the illustration you gave.
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You girls are positively riveting! I read every single post... great stuff here!..
one of the things that I have to do is just realize that perspective is everything...my perception often is equal to my reality... so I have to learn to perceive the wrong doer as someone that made a poor choice for themselves... of course it may affect me negatively, but my only option from here is to make choices that prevent a repetition of this event. this may include new boundaries or less involvement.
just my two cents!
~jason the bald guy-
Jason brings up an important point on the perception of others. Grasp at this concept:
YOU ARE AN IDEA.
And so is the next person and the next. Ideas are developed. Ideas are refined. Ideas get expanded.
If so, then that just does change expectations on people, especially if you are an editor having to chop out the latest piece of deadwood and reworking the next paragraph into something more clear.
And an editor doesn't bother to fill his mind with most edits from 2 years ago...except for the ones that are most instructive.
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A lot of things have been said above and I would like to put in my 2 cents as well. I think forgiveness doesnt come naturally to us humans cos we are naturally competitive and have that survival instinct. However, the bravest of us all are people who are able to forgive rather than people who are avengeful
Forgiving is the powerful act not revenge.
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