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If public education is the way to go, why then does the state of California think that those who came through it are too
Posted by pamelabaker • 3/11/08 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: California, choose, home school, rights
Our Country is one where though we may disagree, we have the right to do so. At least until recently. Since when does the state have the right to tell parents that they cannot choose the type education for their children ?
So if our education is so good, why do the very educators that gave it to us and regulated it for us, think that the result is that we are too dumb to educate our own children even with materials that they have to first approve?
User Comments
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Which Country -
Care to be more specific? -
I have no idea what you are talking about.
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I assume that Pamela is referring to the recent California appellate court decision that throws the legality of homeschooling into question. Here's an article that explains the decision:
www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=88091569 -
Interesting.
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perhaps that sentence fragment quickly followed by the second paragraph is why.
look, i'm all for homeschooling, honestly, because:
1) we do not have a nation-wide system
2) many states do not have a consistent standard across the state
3) most school systems are more about being a bureaucracy than than about teaching children
4) every parent thinks they know better than the system
5) every system thinks they know better than the parents
this is simply NOT a simple issue. we know some of what works: well-educated teachers who know about developmental psychology as well as education theories. teachers who treat students and parents as people and not numbers. schools which have a smaller teacher-student ratio. however, all of this is expensive and as a nation, the u.s. is loathe to pay, meaning that many of the best minds do not go into education.
now, as to your complaint that california is not letting you choose the type of education for your children - you need to be more specific as anok said. my guess, and it's only a guess, is that california wants to keep a closer eye on homeschooling so that at least some of the state's standards are being met. this makes sense to me. i could not begin to teach my child chemistry. i'm not qualified and no amount of state-mandated textbooks is going to make me qualified. same with maths. sadly, many people seem to think that much of the liberal arts are teach-able by anyone. which, of course, is how we get posts like the one starting this discussion.
[EDIT] Thanks for the link, Tiffany. looks like the facts support my guess ....
and it's an interesting issue. should states mandate some minimum requirements for homeschooling?-
". . . many people seem to think that much of the liberal arts are teach-able by anyone. which, of course, is how we get posts like the one starting this discussion." --- I was thinking the same thing. It's also one reason I am now using technology in my history courses. And I do try and take the time to teach subject lines, though not methodically enough, because my subject is supposed to be history, not how to write or communicate more generally, though those things are ever present as issues.
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Not sure what you mean. You do have a right to choose the type of education. If you don't like public education you work harder so you can pay for private schooling of your choice. Or you exercise your write to petition the government to get something on the ballot to vote for change. We vote people into office to make decision. If we don't like the decision they make we vote to get them out. It's not a quick process but it can work.
Oh. From the other responses I see maybe you're talking about home schooling. Personally, I think they're just taking children into consideration. What if a parent just doesn't want to be bothered sending their child to school and claims they're being home schooled? If a child has a right to an education who speaks up for the child?-
The "just doesn't want to be bothered" argument doesn't really hold water, 2sweet, because most states impose pretty rigorous requirements on home schoolers, including curriculum requirements, submission of curriculum plans and materials, annual testing, and other checkpoints.
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I admit I'm not knowledgeable on this subject but it seems to me that if they already have strict requirements in place maybe they're finding that those requirements weren't enough. I still think someone thinks they have the child's best interest at heart.
The flip side to all of this is that I wouldn't put it past someone to have decided that there are too many children being home schooled and it's taking money out of the school system if they get money based on head counts. I'll also admit that the school systems are failing many of our children and many of them would get a better education at home.
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I understand home schooling but every kid I grew up with that was home schooled ended up being either a total social misfit or a hardcore religious zealot. (before religious people jump on me... let me give you an example we had a girl that was home schooled until high school and told us we were all going to burn in hell because we listened to rock and roll)-
i think that's changing in some areas, now, kevin. the real problem here is that it's easy to homeschool poorly just as it's easy to set up poor public schools. for that reason, it makes sense that some states are wanting to enforce some standards and rules.
however, more homeschooling families are now taking into account the need for peer socialization - helps with the "total social misfit" bit you talk about. the hardcore religious zealot? that's one of the thorny issues for me about the movement as well. -
If the kids have people that can teach them properly I am all for it. Especially well educated families that travel or really for any reason that they choose. I think standards and training (maybe a class for the parents or something like that) should also be required.
I just get worried because some people home school their kid for poor reasons and it has a lasting impact. The family across the street from me growing up had a child that was labeled learning disabled from the school. They wanted to put him in special classes in order to help him out and the parents flipped out, pulling all three kids out of school. Now mind you the school district I grew up in was ranked one of the best in the state.
So now you have a stay at home mom with no formal education (she married out of high school) teaching three children with like a six year age gap. How the hell can that be the right move? Aren't they doing a disservice to their children? -
yep, i agree with you whole-heartedly.
i have seen a few such cases where the moms taught at home through elementary school and then began using distance learning or supplementing with private tutors - and having that work out well. even "co-op" type homeschools where the parents taught their strengths. however, for cases like you give - the "good version" of homeschooling is generally the exception and not the rule.
learning disabilities do very much become a slippery slope. you state that your school district was excellent, but were they also excellent with learning disabilities? i had a friend with severe dyslexia who was thrown into the special-ed classes with two down's syndrome children, three with severe cerebral palsy and one with severe anger issues. the dyslexic kid was ignored completely because there was only one teacher who had his hands completely and totally full with the other six kids. on the other hand, in one of the local school districts around here, i know the person in charge of the special needs programs for the county and their system is excellent - mainstreaming the kids who will benefit from that, providing helpers for the kids who need them and excellent special needs care for those who need that.
i also know a woman who is, as you say, doing an extreme disservice to her kids by plucking her kids out of school because the school told them the younger boy had some severe rage issues and needed help. well, they sure showed the school, didn't they? now the other sibs are scared, traumatized, lonely and not getting a good education, either. but hey, mommy is right, because that boy is just a perfect angel. boys will be boys you know. never mind the youngest boy's broken nose or the fact that the oldest had her hair cut by junior. -
I am sure those rage issues will just disappear when he becomes an adult.
I guess where the issue is how do you regulate it? And how to you create and force standards? Also if we do regulate it and have visits from the state and auditing should my tax dollar really go to fund that when I am already paying taxes to fund schools? (I can hear that being a common call)
And when you start to regulate it what provisions are in there? Required socialization, certain proficiency shown by the students and the teacher, a detailed lesson plan, an action plan for classes the parent can't teach?
I like alternative schooling like charter schools, I think they providing interesting solutions for some school systems that are fundamentally broken but when it comes to home schooling I am not sold on it, it is really a mixed bag. -
i agree with you - we're throwing money away on education whether we're talking public or homeschool regulation.
of course my solution is for me to re-design the public school system from the ground up. cuz i'd FIX the damn thing. i've only been working on designing a school system since about fifth grade ....
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Oh it needs to be redone... But when you start tackling school issues socio-economic issues begin to come into play.
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definitely. i was being somewhat flip as a perfect school system is as much a utopia as a perfect form of government or economics.
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Kevin, I think that is not nearly so much the case as it once was. However, your concerns are certainly valid where regulation is lax; I personally knew of a home schooling family whose adolescent children could not read--by design. Their mother felt that "book learning" was destructive, and instead focused their entire curriculum on "experience".
I think it's rare, though. My biggest concern about home schooling is the very one that the original poster here was concerned about. My experience says that the vast majority of adults I encounter in the working world are challenged by what I consider to be basic mathematical concepts and definitely cannot consistently write grammatically correct sentences. That makes me nervous about putting them in charge of anyone's education. -
It is clear that we have serious educational issues in this country and it needs reform. Just like our legal system and many other old institutions.
I don't even want to start to think about it. -
Hey, I was catholic schooled, and I'm a total misfit!
I will be homeschooling as well, unless the school systems here change dramatically, or we move somewhere where actual education is a priority. -
Homeschooling is a great option for kids and parents. -
Particularly if you or your child don't fit in lockstep with the rigid constructs of the school system you have access to. I know my kid will NOT do well in school because it won't move along fast enough. I know my kid, and our schools here, besides the utter lack of professionalism (they got caught passing/graduating kids who were failing just to bolster the numbers to get more funding) but the quality is so sub par it isn't even funny.
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@anok - that's one of my biggest concerns about most public schools as well. "most school systems are more about being a bureaucracy than than about teaching children" ... too often it's about teaching to a very large middle and ignoring the top and the bottom. or, in some districts, focusing at the top or the bottom to the detriment of the other groups.
my opinion is that the smaller the student-teacher ratio, the more likely it is that more children will learn more. (however, a small school can be hindered by not enough diversity in subject matter and specialties) -
Well she did have a point, save your soul and get rid of those Bon Jovi albums. -
Ender, I agree...I would also say however that a big problem is funding. With all the "No child left behind" crap - little schools (smaller teacher/student ratios) can't survive unless they are private, and highly coveted, thus expensive.
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I think a mix of both is good. Its what we do with ours, they have school in the day then half an hour to an hour at home together learning each others stuff.
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I think that some parents are just worried about public schools in this country. We have shootings, drugs, gang violence, and kids graduating that can barely read. Something needs to be done...I just don't know what. I was under the assumption that homeshcooling was regulated...lol I homeschooled my daughter for a year in a difficult time during high school and I had to keep meticulous records and I met with several teachers and her principal once a month to discuss what we were doing, where we were at, where we were going...etc. Kind of a round table meeting if you will. They approved the curriculum that I had chosen. I just figured that all states had such strict standards.
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nope, just depends on the state.
what's interesting to me are the homeschoolers who have banded together to try to do it "right." essentially regulating themselves. now if they could all do that .... -
My sister homeschools her 5 children and I must say brilliantly. But she has a whole homeschool network. Friends, church, homeschool org., ymca (for sports) and so on. She does it right. I wonder though how many don't?
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ender- could you imagine that, you have such a cross section of people that ... wow I would love to be in that room.
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i can imagine it ... could we ever see it happen? pfft.
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You all need vouchers. That's my two eurocents (coz those are worth more these days)
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Unless vouchers are going to cover 100% of tuition plus any related expenses plus unlimited transportation, they won't do anything except put a little more money back in the pockets of people who can already afford private school.
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We had the voucher system imposed on us in DC by the Bush White House and Republican Congress as a grand social experiment. It's great to be a colony.
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And how did that go, Mark? Are poverty stricken children suddenly blossoming in their newfound freedom to learn?
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No one's talking about it these days. I know some charter schools have been closed (that presumably had been benefiting from these vouchers). The mayor has taken over the school system and we have an unusually highly paid chancellor in charge of them under him now. No. No silver bullet, as far as I can tell.
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So then are poverty stricken children doing well in the public system? I am not saying that either is all bad, but we should have the right to choose.
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the right to choose between one poor system and another? you're over-simplifying a very complicated issue. does everyone have the ability to do homeschooling "right"?
and where in the constitution does it say you have a right to educate your child yourself? maybe it does ... i've got a cold and i feel like crud and perhaps i've forgotten something. -
you should have a right to choose as long as my tax dollar doesn't pay for it.
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Do you know many poverty stricken families that are homeschooling, or trying to? Serious question. I can't imagine it being an issue that arises very often. And it's clear that the vast majority of families that are truly "poverty stricken" still won't be able to afford or manage the logistics of private school under voucher systems as they are typically proposed. So what is the option you're suggesting?
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@kevin: but does that mean we get more people who don't know the basics we count on our citizens knowing? who pays for those people when they can't find jobs?
(of course, who's paying for the people who have 1, 2 or 3 degrees and can't find jobs either ...) -
Actually, Ender, our original government made it clear they wanted nothing to do with education. It wasn't for sometime after our independence that our government sought to set up regulated school systems and much later for compulsory attendance.
Our government felt it was the parent's responsibility to educate...although things have changed yes, we absolutely have the constitutional right to homeschool. -
yep, that's what i thought ... but the right wasn't specifically addressed at first, correct?
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No, because it was inherent, I would suppose. You know, something that they just thought not even necessary to mention...
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@anok ... explains far too much about us as a country at that time.
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Home school coop exists all over,they combine for sports, field trips, pay other teachers to come in and teach certain subjects, if you are not a part of it,it would be easy to assume that home schoolers are a bunch of anti social people rather than dedicated parents who are willing to dig in and be involved in their children's education.
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and how does this comment address the discussion we've been having? how does it connect to other comments?
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"In other words, the captains of industry and government explicitly wanted an educational system that would maintain social order by teaching us just enough to get by but not enough so that we could think for ourselves, question the sociopolitical order, or communicate articulately. We were to become good worker-drones, with a razor-thin slice of the population—mainly the children of the captains of industry and government—to rise to the level where they could continue running things."
www.stumbleupon.com/demo/?review=1#url=http://www.thememoryhole.org/edu/sch...-
sad but excellent quote.
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Homeschooling is being threatened in California -- the bastard government want to ban it!
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Along with meddling with the actual education as to dumb down the public, in my opinion. We can't have an overly educated society, that just won't do!
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Got to keep us hoi polloi down some way!
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"The "public" schools' curriculum can much more justly be described as servile than liberal education. Its objective is a human product which is capable of fulfilling the technical needs of corporate capital and the state, but at the same time docile and compliant, and incapable of any critical analysis of the system of power it serves. The public educationist movement and the creation of the first state school systems, remember, coincided with the rising factory system's need for a work force that was trained in obedience, punctuality, and regular habits. Technical competence and a "good attitude" toward authority, combined with twelve years of conditioning in not standing out or making waves, were the goal of the public educationists."
www.mutualist.org/id84.html-
Oh, which reminds me...I saw a commercial for education and while it was all well and good, there was one line in it that made my stomach turn for the very reasons you mentioned above...it was something to the effect of "more kids who read by age (whatever) means we'll have more adults ready for the work force". But it wasn't really what was said (I butchered it anyway) but rather how it was said. As if we were just training fodder for the capitalist corporate giants....
*shudder*
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to pointlessbanter; if you are a home owner chances are that your tax dollar pays for our lack of choice . In Ohio that is most certainly the case and when children are taken out of the system, they loose the tax paid tuition that we are made to believe is free.
when a parent who owns property, takes their child out of the public system, they do not get a refund in most cases and then has to pay for schools of choice and not choice too.-
It depends on how you look at it. I believe that we need to overhaul the current system and make it better. As a citizen and a property owner I support that because I think it benefits society.
Now if my tax money goes to support people that pull their kid out to home school I don't approve of that because they are not helping reform or participate in the system. Also money that is needed for the system is being diverted elsewhere. Even if I don't have a kid in the system I believe that my money, while probably being misspent to some extend still has an impact on these children's lives.
If people want to pull their kid out of school to home school them for whatever reason they are doing they should still have to put their tax money towards the school system because it is still a part of their community. Because they want to do things a different way doesn't mean they don't have a responsibility to the community. -
The real problem is homeschoolers continuing to have to fund public education. But no, homeschoolers should reject financial assistance from the state. As they say -- there ain't no such thing as a free lunch. There are always strings attached. Where state money goes, bureaucrats and politicians follow.
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Daniel, do you believe that people whose children are in private schools should also not have to pay taxes that go toward public education? What about people who don't have children? And people whose children are grown? And people whose children are too young to have started school yet and MIGHT not go to public school?
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I believe that, to quote a woman called Voltairine de Cleyre: "Private enterprise manages better all that to which it is equal. Anarchism declares that private enterprise, whether individual or cooperative, is equal to all the undertakings of society."
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Without addressing whether or not that's accurate, there's one serious thing to consider. What is "better" for the private enterprise doing the managing is rarely what's best for those involved. For example, a large number of mental health programs, prisons, nursing homes and drug treatment centers have been privatized in an effort to save money--and save money they do. They turn a profit, even, by cutting essential services, raising counselor caseloads to levels that make it impossible for counselors to maintain even the most tangential relationships with their clients, serve substandard food, and a variety of other choices that are excellent management decisions if your goal is to make as much money as possible and perhaps not so good if the goal is to provide important services.
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Yes but the only way they get away doing that shit is because of the state-enforced capitalist monopoly over the economy. In other words, in a genuinely free market society nobody would put up with substandard treatment because there would be no legal monopoly and therefore a plurality of options. Also, mis-management of private (and state) enterprises today are the result of capitalist interests. Workers tend to be far more competent than management or capitalists/shareholders -- and tend to put human beings over profits, because they're face-to-face with them.
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That is true Daniel23
and though we are supposed to have the right to religious freedom, we are being slowly pushed to place our children in a system where those freedoms are banned.
If you ever read the text book on World History from a European Perspective and read about the rise of violent communism you will see a pattern here.
It may not seem that is such a big problem when the freedom that you are not involved with is removed, but given time things you do care about will be attacked sooner or later.-
You have religious freedom. The school however, which is funded by our government cannot allow it to promote one religion over another...that pesky first amendment, and all that
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Well Anok, it's true that Christian home-schoolers face a lot of harassment. I'm all for freedom of religion, as well as freedom FROM religion.
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There should be a separation of church and state PERIOD.
I was raised catholic and I went to an additional school to get my religious education, that is the way it should be. -
Agreed.
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I agree!!!!!
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Anok:
Good point.That is another thing, Our children now have to enter school knowing everything that they used to learn in Kindergarten.We have head start programs and yet many of our children are leaving school with very poor skills, no phonics, a limited vocabulary,and much of what used to be taught in high school even 30yrs ago is now taught in college.-
I learned to read when I was 9 and it certainly didn't hurt me. Growth should be natural, not forced and hurried. You see these kids that learn to read as toddlers and they just don't appreciate reading, often. Natural. Little kids should be running around learning by doing. Only when older should kids learn intellectually.
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Daniel, in this very tiny paragraph you've completely contradicted yourself. Should it be "natural" or should intellectual learning be restricted to older children?
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Hey Daniel thats interesting, on the news just now they have suggested doing away with homework for primary school children (in the UK). -
I'm not sure I follow you MadameX?
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Daniel, you first said that learning should be at a natural pace and not forced. Then, in your last sentence, you set up parameters about the ages at which certain kinds of learning should and should not take place. If we're going with "natural pace" then don't we have to let kids get to the "intellectual" learning when their own interest drives them there?
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Right. I believe children have different natural aptitudes at different ages. Around 8-10 children become more head-orientated and therefore more open to intellectual type learning. They may not even need to be taught to read. I wasn't. I just picked up Tolkein's 'The Hobbit' and taught myself to read.
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MadameX, Daniel is on to something here, pediatrically speaking. Kids don't learn the same way from birth to age 5-7 as they do from age 7-to teenaged years, and when they are teenagers, or college students. Ergo, the type of teaching can be varied a great deal depending on age, and temperament.
If a very young child is happy and eager to learn to read at the age of two or three (regardless of proficiency) it should obviously be encouraged, but not forced. As the child gets older, he or she will either realize that reading is important, and useful and do so happily, or for whatever reason just trudges along and does it anyway - but it shouldn't be "forced" on a young child the way the current system forces it. However when the child become much older, and self sufficient they can and will learn highly complicated subject matters on their own, much easier (in some regards, not all) and without so much pressure.
Kind of like potty training.
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Yes well if the take away the school you want your child to get that type of education in, how then do they have the same choice. By the way the separation of church and state refers to the state not running the church not the state having the right to silence the church. The reason to silence the church is because they are a body of free thinkers. This poses a threat to those who would love to make us the drones as mentioned earlier in this discussion.
If you look into the history of the rise of Big brother type governments, you will find that one of the first things that they did was shut up the church except for those that would give from the pulpits the new government agenda.-
But, Pamela, how is the state trying to "silence the church" by not bringing it into the secular classroom. Has the school board shown up at your house in the evening or in your church on Sunday and objected to what was taught?
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pamelabaker, and here I thought that the separation of church and state was so that the church doesn't try to run the state and impose it's beliefs on others that do not think the same, trying to make them drones of the church. -
Yeah religion promotes free thought... I am not even going to start in on that. I am not diving into that can of worms.
When you look at separation of church and state the government can't impose on the church, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…"
When schools are government run and impose religion on the students it gets murky. Religion is something that should be taught in the home or in alternative schools, it has NO place in public schools. Especially with the diverse background of people in the United States. -
wrong response edited
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You forgot the second pat of the separation of church and state, oh heck, here's the amendment:
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;[...]
That first part is the pesky part - it can't make a law respecting the establishment of a religion, translation/interpretation: the state can't fund a business, group, or school that promotes a religious agenda.
They make laws to protect the sanctity of religious practices, for teh religious but other than that they can't force religion on the public via federally funded, public places and groups that have some sort of public service or compulsory attendance.
Just thought I'd clear that up
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well, it was a great intellectual conversation while it lasted.
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Yup let the bible beating begin... I liked the discussion about the impact of home school in society and the government's place... One of the better ones on here... Well until...
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yep ... i enjoyed our conversation very much!
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No... religion just got injected... So the logical discussion about policy, economics, and structure are going to get thrown out the window. It will soon turn into "my kid deserves to learn about how man walked with dinosaurs and evolution isn't real because it is a theory".
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ah, that'll do it.
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I think that's already been implied, Kevin, in the statement about curriculum in public schools. But don't you (and this is a collective you) think it might be more productive to just skip over the digressions and carry on with the conversation you were having than stop discussing what you wanted to discuss in the first place in order to discuss the posts you wish hadn't been interjected and how they're keeping you from discussing what you wanted to discuss? They're not. Carry on. You just have to do a little extra scrolling.
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Well, I hope we keep our freedom to disagree, and respect each others rights to choose how we want to raise our families.
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Amen to that!
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Well, that depends. I saw a news clip the other day of a man who strongly felt that it was appropriate to introduce children to sexual activity as young as age five. He'd even written books on the subject. I don't respect his right to choose that. In fact, with regard to the case I mentioned earlier, I don't respect that woman's "right" to handicap her children by raising them illiterate in a society where they will be utterly unable to obtain employment, use public transportation, read the warning label on a medication or even grocery shop effectively.
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the problem here is that sometimes how "we" choose to raise our family is harmful to the larger community. for example, spanking is okay up to a point. whaling on a kid with a two by four is not. yet many people who are brought up on charges for doing violence to their children claim they should have the right to choose how to raise their children.
am i absolutely equating homeschooling with child abuse? NO NO NO! don't get me wrong. however, i think there is a valid correlation between continuum of acceptable spanks to outright beatings ... and great homeschooling versus detrimental homeschooling. -
i see we were thinking the same thing, tiffany.
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No I respect it but don't you see that making an entire system conform to your religion is backwards and inefficient. I am not against religion being taught on a spiritual level in a public school I am against it in a logical level.
Lets say you do allow religious teaching in classes. You need to open it up to every religion because they are out there. So lets say you take a true melting pot like a school in Brooklyn. Maybe you have 14-15 different religions (on the low end), you have to staff the right people for all of those classes or points of view.
How is that logical or the smart spending of money? It isn't.
How about one day a week kids getting out of school an hour early to go to CCD or whatever religious schooling that their family wants? The church and the family pay for that... The kids that don't want to go can have a study all or a special event.
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If you will remember my origonal point was that in California,the court is saying that parents are too inept to follow a lesson plan and teach thier children ... so are they confident in what they are giving as an education?
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I am sure a lot of them are, until you have standards and training they shouldn't be able to teach their kids.
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and you've missed the point that many parents are simply NOT qualified as teachers.
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Many "teachers" aren't qualified as teachers! Anyway, parents are teachers and if you aint up to teach you aint up to parent.
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daniel - not everyone can teach every subject. if every parent were a qualified teacher, we'd have damn few parents.
the point is that we need to do something to help attract better teachers to the profession - and give them incentive to TEACH and stay ... not run away to higher paying jobs with less bureaucratic baloney. -
True. Homeschoolers tend to coop, though, don't they? Share skills, etc. Plus, they buy textbooks and enroll in long-distance learning programs. There are many options.
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Pamela, can you please provide a quote from the court ruling that says parents are too inept to follow a lesson plan? I didn't see that, but I'm working and haven't really had time to dig.
I think that you're entirely ignoring some critical factors here, including natural ability and motivation. An educational system, however excellent it might be, cannot turn a person with an IQ of 90 into a competent teacher for a high school age child. No quality of education can overcome a simple lack of concern about getting things done right. There are many, many, many factors that go into whether or not someone is equipped to teach adequately other than that person's education. It is also worth noting that the public education system only educates through high school, and that states generally have deemed that in the classroom setting, a college degree is required to teach (even as a substitute). Thus, it would seem that even the very best high school education in the country is not intended to prepare someone to teach. -
Ender, we as parents teach our children everything that forms the very basis of their life from day one - yes, parents are qualified to teach their kids in evry subject. Teachers in grade school do not have degrees in every subject and simply follow the books they are given.
It isn't until highschool that teachers begin to have specialized teaching fields - and a degree in their subject is only required at a college professor level.
Daniel is right, if the parent (truly) lacks the patience and ability to be able to sit down and teach something to their school aged kid - then what have they been doing up until the point when the child entered school?
Not teaching them diddly?
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*ignores last page*
One problem with homeschooling is that if all the families with money give up on the American educational system instead of trying to sit on it and beat it back into something strong-- then a minority will be well-educated (assuming that home schooling is done right) and the quality of American schools will continue to deteriorate. A smaller proportion of the PTA will be composed of the go-getter parents who push, push, push for improvements.
And the time will come when the homeschooler families say, "why should I pay for a public school system we're not using?" and the cycle gets worse and worse as schools receive less and less support.
If you give up on a system instead of trying to improve, it gets worse.
And opting out doesn't save you from the problem. If the majority of American kids are receiving "No Child Left Behind" education that forces teachers to spend the year teaching kids how to ace those tests at the end of the year -- without which their school loses funding -- then the majority of American kids aren't being given hands-on lessons, critical thinking training, or anything besides rote memorization of a bunch of government-sanctioned "facts." That is a recipe for disaster we should definitely be concerned about.
But yanking a chunk of kids out of the system and ignoring the problem won't fix it. It just lets it get more and more ingrained. A generation grows up with poor schooling, and sooner or later that affects EVERYONE.
Remember, an integral part of American democracy -- at least at the foundation -- was that a well-educated population would have the critical thinking skills and knowledge to vote wisely. If we've lost that, then we get the Roman system whereby the wealthy oligarchy uses rhetoric (commercials) and certain popular "perks" to constituents to buy votes from a population that really doesn't understand the issues, they just know they're supposed to like this politician or that one, because he's the head of their faction. Sound familiar?
When parents give up on schools, it leaves public school teachers to paddle the rowboat with only one oar, making it go in circles. :/-
"If you give up on a system instead of trying to improve, it gets worse."
I totally agree. -
"If you give up on a system instead of trying to improve, it gets worse."
Maybe. But the POINT of the current education system is to create a dumbed-down workforce. So yeah, we need to get rid of state and capitalist interests if society is to get a good education system. But meanwhile there's that proud old working-class tradition of self-help. -
"But the POINT of the current education system is to create a dumbed-down workforce."
I don;t know about that... I mean the quality of education I had where I lived in NY was vastly superior to the one I had in CA. They taught us to think for ourselves and really let us explore things on our own if we wanted to in NY. -
"In virtually every area of life, the average citizen was to be transformed from Jefferson's self-sufficient and resourceful yeoman into a client of some bureaucracy or other. The educational system was designed to render him a passive and easily managed recipient of the "services" of one institution after another. [...] the schools process human raw material to be taken over by the "human resources" bureaucracies of private industry (with the transition made as seamless as possible by the school-to-work movement), or by the bureaucracies of the welfare state and prison-industrial complex."
www.mutualist.org/id81.html
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to MadameX
I agree some choices violate the rights of others,as in your first statement, but in most states the children who are home schooled are tested each year to make sure that they are up to the required standards.
In so many cases, they score higher than the state average.-
They shouldn't be tested. Some parents may be lousy but I severely, severely doubt if they approach anything near the lousiness in the tip of your Federal Government's little finger.
Talking of religious freedom -- remember Waco? -
yeah, where that one church had a freaking arsenal of illegal weapons in their church? where that one guy was abusing the kids of the congregation?
yeah. i remember. i lived near there. -
The allegations against David Koresh were made up -- that was found out later. And I'm going to be the last one to condemn them for fearing "their" government -- they were right weren't they? And I don't believe any of the weapons were illegal. They were a weird cult -- but so are the Mormons, Catholics, etc. And it isn't ok burning them alive is it?
Anyway, if the American Federal Government was so concerned about the Waco kids why'd they purposefully BURN THEM ALIVE!? -
That's true, Pamela. But you do understand that those standards are a restriction on parents freedom to make their own choices to raise children however they choose. Your argument seemed to be that it was only the parents' business what educational choices they made--if that's the case, then aren't those tests and requirements just as much of an imposition as requiring a child to attend school?
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Yeah, the government messed up big time in the Waco debacle. The people, although weird, weren't harming anyone - and the government went in and murdered men, women and children because of it.
Yeesh...
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To Geek Geek: the problem is, if it takes longer to fix the problem than it does to raise your child, then, have you waited too long for their personal experience?
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It is easy to sit back and bash it rather then working to reform it.
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Glad you stepped up to take on the American Federal Government!
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I have a vote and I have a voice. I am not going to debate the fact that the system isn't broken but this overall attitude that we are being held down and oppressed through education is a bit extreme.
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Yeah, you have fun with your one vote.
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They're two entirely separate issues, Pamela. Our obligations to society long-term and our obligations to our children in the moment are independent...as well they must be, since any kind of meaningful societal change can be expected to take longer than the course of a typical elementary school experience.
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Kevin, my little brother received, from a teacher, a rather disturbing message in his high school when he was a junior - and it was that the ability to read, write, and comprehend literature was a waste of time and both the schools and the government weren't opposed to a dumbed down language much like the ones we use right here, on the internet. No joke, if he still has the article, I will forward it along. Believe me you - they are implementing that *cough*structure*choke* in his school!
Our educational system has just hit a few snags, but has been pushed back by the government itself - because quite frankly one of the first thing any country needs to do in order to oppress or enslave it's people is to remove the educated populace. There is another problem as well, and that is teh total removal of practical application courses, arts, music, and "extra" courses. Our society economically speaking has run it's course as far as what we currently use to maintain economic stability. That is to say, middle management, and financing/banking style capitalism isn't cutting the mustard anymore, and certainly isn't sustainable. Nietehr is starting wars to keep up domestic and foreign military spending to inflate the GDP and create temporary jobs.
We've lost skilled laborers by the tons - those are good jobs, with good pay that create stable economies that even the Joe Schmoe high school graduate can get into sans a necktie and a name to drop. And our schools have all but eliminated the choice to enter into that - that is crippling us!
Thats no speculation, it's a fact...ergo it should be of the utmost importance to make sure our schools do get fixed, and in the meantime let the parents do what they need to do to make sure gets know what they need to know!
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If parents are so unqualified as teachers what is that attributed to?
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-education
-training -
it's attributed to the fact that you have to specialize to teach well. i can teach writing and literature and design.
i cannot teach maths or sciences. i'm simply not qualified.
on top of issues of subject matter, teaching itself is not necessarily easy nor something everyone is automatically good at. -
Again, primary grade teachers have NO degrees in any one subject and are required to teach ALL subjects.
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I have been involved in it both ways actually.
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An excellent point ender this is why parents are forming coops. Most parents who do not have a gift to teach give this up in the first year.
Many home school programs have an interactive computer system to work with other teachers on line and others have classes recorded on DVD-
Exactly.
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yes, these are all points i made earlier in this thread. however, we cannot blithely assume that all homeschooling parents do this.
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That is great, I hope that they do. Like Ender says though it doesn't mean everyone is doing it. That is why there needs to be guidelines and over site on some level.
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Yeah, cos the American Federal Government does SUCH A GREAT JOB and is a tip-top expert on education!
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who the hell says it has to be the federal government? dude go blow up a building or something to make yourself feel better... rage against the machine whatever...
it can be self regulated, it can be something agreed upon within a state, locally, who knows, but there needs to be some level of standards to these children get a base education so they can function and think. -
Daniel, I don't get your point. The federal government has very little to do with education. How does the performance of the federal government relate to this issue?
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"it can be self regulated, it can be something agreed upon within a state, locally, who knows, but there needs to be some level of standards to these children get a base education so they can function and think."
I agree. Communities should set basic standards and have some kind of guide-lines. But in the present system we should focus on getting kids out of taxpayer-funded, state-ran schools. -
But, Daniel, in what form do you want "communities" to act as coherent bodies that are not governmental?
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State run? What about community run? What about city run? You need a public source to run the education system and have it publicly funded. If you think there are socio-economic problems within our country now privatize education or make it total co-ops, then see what happens.
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Well we've run against kind of a wall here because I'm a syndicalist-anarchist -- for workers self-management of the economy and a federated system of community/neighborhood assemblies and municipalities. Decentralisation is the name of the game -- self-management, self-responsibility, self-rule. Here two interesting FAQs on anarchism:
www.infoshop.org/faq/index.html
www.mutualist.org/id23.html
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to daneil23, an excellent point about Waco.They were not imposing their beliefs on anyone. Did it seem odd that a t.v. show was put together a week after the incident....how did they write it and produce it that fast?
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It was a terrible tragedy. Don't forget that your own government murdered men, women and children in cold bloody.
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I knew someone who was a child inside Waco. I definitely cannot agree that they were "not imposing their beliefs on anyone else".
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How do you mean? Were you raised a Catholic? Were your parents imposing religion on you? I might argue they were, but let's leave that to another discussion... The fact remains, people raise their kids as they see best. Sometimes they do badly. But the bottom line is that a family is better than the state.
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You couldn't argue that they were, Daniel, or at least not in the way that you mean, because I WASN'T raised Catholic. I was baptized Catholic but encouraged to believe that the church was wrong about a lot and I should make my own decisions; except for the one year that I attended Catholic school because of a move, I never set foot inside a church until I was in my teens.
[Edit] That should say in a CATHOLIC church. I did visit a number of other churches (Methodist, Nazarene, Greek Orthodox and whatever "open Bible" means come to mind immediately) just because I'd been invited along by friends.
I really can't go into the details of Waco--it's not my story to tell. But it comes down to the comment I made to Pamela earlier; there is a point at which I do not respect a parent's "right" to inflict things on children that are physically dangerous and that create an inability to function in society. -
I basically agree with you, but seeing as the Federal Government burned alive a lot of those Waco children, it would seem painfully ironic to suggest that self-same government should be the ones looking after them. I think communities should look out for kids and avoid parental abuse. Not the state!
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Well, not to put too fine a point on it, but the federal government was responsible for the Waco fiasco and states are responsible for education.
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True in theory. But in practice...
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Interesting discussion! As a home learning parent for the past six years, who does not have a 'teacher's certificate', but definitely does have keen observational skills and my children's best interests at heart, I think of myself not so much as a 'teacher' but as an 'educational coordinator', responsible for finding the appropriate tutor, mentor, class, resources.
We are currently enrolled with a dl program within the public school system, and my children & I have good communication with their various teachers and mentors. We are able to select which classes and field trips they participate in, and so connect with students, parents and teachers on a regular basis.
We have still have the freedom of natural learning, and the report cards we get from the school make me (OK, the grandparents) confident that they are doing really well. There are also many parent-organized groups and field trips in the community we are active with, and of course, the children have their own interests and activities. Where I am going with this:
1) There are many many opportunities, socially & academically for home schooled children
2) Requires parental effort, definitely!!!!
3) California incident might not be the best example of hs...I believe they were being investigated for abuse first (?)
4) I believe that public schools having to think 'outside the box' and expand the opportunities and choices for families and children is a positive step in the right direction.-
"finding the appropriate tutor, mentor, class, resources."
Sounds a bit expensive!
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Statistically, the typical American homeschooling parents are married, homeschool their children primarily for religious or moral reasons, and are almost twice as likely to be Evangelical than the national average.
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Out of how many?
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That's my impression too, Morgan, but so what? I could be very wrong. There's no point in talking statistics unless you're going to cite them too.
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What statistics? Many home school parents are most likely married , somebody has to bring home the pay and it is hard to do that and teach at the same time. This however does not make you incapable.
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Greetings
There should be some sort of academic qualification process for parents in place(teaching certificate)in order for them to be allowed to home school their children.
Biobob -
Parents should have the right to decide if their children should be home schooled. I am all for types of certifications to prove they are capable and able to teach. However, I am very opposed to the government banning home schooling.
For those interested in protecting child-parent relationships from unreasonable govt intrusion, visit www.parentalrights.org/ -
It is hard to beat a system that graduates kids who can neither read nor write effectively. It's like head-counts at a revival, as if the number of people who walk down the isle are indicative of how many are "saved." -
I don't know about California, but in Ohio you have to show the scope and sequence of the subjects you will cover for the year and have have your books approved. Most companies also have the daily lesson plans with online backup.
If you can read,all you have to do is follow the instructions. -
The majority of public schooling really sucks badly. However, at the same time it gives those who really want to succeed a chance to excel and become the best with not a huge amount of effort. You can game the public education system fairly well if you are smart. For example, one of my friends went to one of the worst high schools so he could be the top person in the school and get into the University of Chicago with a full scholarship. Public education creates extremes of distinction.
The thing which it does best is create a holding pen for the majority, and an opportunity for those who really want to succeed in the minority.
A lot of success in the public education system comes from the parents teaching their children motivation which separates them from the other kids. The schools
certainly don't motivate most children.-
Really does the majority suck? Do you have like stats to back that up?
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Er, actually internationally speaking the US doesn't even make the top 50 for schools, last I checked.
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I know our educational rankings compared to other countries are poor but to just say across the board that most public schools suck is a bit much.
Arkansas could just seriously be dragging us down. -
LOL! Actually I think it's the schools in my town that are doing it
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About ten years ago, I was in the position of working with a new program that ran classes after school in a very large public school district. Because of the scope of the project, our initial plan was to train public school teachers to present the classes. Unfortunately, when we applied the criteria that we used for hiring teachers directly, not one of the public school teacher applicants was qualified to teach the class.
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Bingo! Madame X! Question, did you opt to homeschool you kid(s)? (Just out of curiosity).
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I was looking for reports of how the U.S. measured internationally, but I'm coming up short. Two articles I've run into so far are:
"More nations pass US in reading skills" (Boston Globe, 11/29/2007)
www.boston.com/news/nation/washington/articles/2007/11/29/more_nations_pass...
"In a Global Test of Math Skills, U.S. Students Behind the Curve" (Washington Post, 12/7/2004)
www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A41278-2004Dec6.html
Both just give a broad picture.
Of course, what kinds of skills these tests measure is a different issue.
And who do they measure? Do home-schooled kids even get measured? And does anyone know anything about what happens to home-schooled youth after they "graduate"?
Long story short, can anyone cite some more hard news sources or even actual studies?-
If I remember correctly most of the measurements are based on math and linguistics, graduation rates, percentages of those who enter into college, they don't include private schools, or homeschooled kids.
I forgot where I found it...I'm off to look now.... -
Yes, they also go to college. In fact, many college recruiters seek out homeschoolers for their unique dedication to independent study and their superb social skills. Homeschooled kids are required to take the same tests in high school (SAT, ACT, etc) as any other student to graduate and get into college.
Here's lots of info on homeschool and college:
www.hslda.org/docs/nche/Issues/C/College.asp
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We are talking about stats on how all schools operate and rank.
Plus I am not taking stats from Bob Jones University. There is no f'ing way they aren't slanted. -
You've got a point there.
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I have a report on why Harvard is the greatest college written by Harvard. If you want to check that out.
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I think I'd rather read a report by you on why Buzznetworker is the best thing since sliced cheese.
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Actually I could write that on pointlessbanter that buzznetworker is the greatest thing since sliced cheese. It would be a DIFFERENT site that has the write up... Totally on the up and up.
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Actually, this is a peer-reviewed journal article, not a site, and the author comes from University of Maryland at College Park. It is not a Bob Jones University site, though that university is mentioned in an interesting way: "The Bob Jones University (BJU) Press Testing and Evaluation Service is the largest and oldest of four organizations providing home school families access to standardized achievement tests. . . ."
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Yikes! That's a lot of homework. Are you going to offer us a blog post next?
By the way, the fourth link in your first batch (Journal of Statistics Education) is not directly relevant, though certainly interesting. -
Wait I have to read and research... screw that I never learned how to do that .
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Kevin, were you homeschooled by any chance?
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AH, sorry Mark I thought it had the statistics we've been looking for, but I had trouble opening up the PDF myself...so I just threw it out there anyway
I used to have whole bunches of references about this, but unfortunately my 'puter crashed and I lost it all :*(
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Exactly the question I've pondered on. If we're not smart enough to teach our kids, then what have they taught us? LOL
For home schooled kids scores, here ya go. They score higher than kids in both public and private schools. Also, there is data on whether the parent having a degree matters or not. It doesn't. The scores remain just about the same, regardless of whether the parent has a degree or not.
www.hslda.org/docs/nche/000010/200410250.asp
www.hslda.org/docs/study/rudner1999/Rudner2.asp
www.associatedcontent.com/article/518645/can_a_parent_be_a_homeschool_teach...-
Nice of you to inject some clarity and perspective!
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If we're not smart enough to teach our kids, then what have they taught us? LOL
Heh, thats a good way of putting it into perspective, actually!
Many of our founding fathers were also homeschooled, if I remember correctly, since, you know school houses weren't very common way back when
I think they did just fine!
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Jennifer Love Hewitt was homeschooled, apparently. That should silence all you haters! So was Davey Crockett.
www.homeschoolacademy.com/famoushomeschoolers.htm-
I didn't know she was homeschooled - doesn't surprise me though because she has awesome social skills (obviously). Thanks for link. I've checked up on lots of famous homeschoolers before as well.
Here's some more just for interest:
The Williams sisters (tennis)
Jason Taylor (football)
Raven Symone
Elijah Wood
Albert Einstein
FDR
Thomas Edison
Alexander Graham Bell
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