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If there is a God, then why are there thousands of children dying every day from malnutrition and sickness?
Posted by filosofia • 10/13/08 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: children, God, philosophy
This is actually farangrakthai's question, not mine. It first appeared on the discussion "Does God Exist or Not?" I thought it was such a good question, it deserves its own thread.
I should say right from the start this time (!) that I'm asking this question as a philosopher, NOT as a theologian, and most certainly NOT repeat NOT as an attempted evangelist. I am open minded on the existence or non-existence of God or gods, (at least for the purpose of this discussion.)
So I'm happy to take a back seat! Maybe put in the occasional word?
User Comments
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hmm, maybe because god still feels he isn't getting enough love -
Deuteronomy 32
32:19 And when the LORD saw it, he abhorred them, because of the provoking of his sons, and of his daughters.
32:20 And he said, I will hide my face from them, I will see what their end shall be: for they are a very forward generation, children in whom is no faith.
32:21 They have moved me to jealousy with that which is not God; they have provoked me to anger with their vanities: and I will move them to jealousy with those which are not a people; I will provoke them to anger with a foolish nation.
32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.
32:23 I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them.
32:24 They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust.
32:25 The sword without, and terror within, shall destroy both the young man and the virgin, the suckling also with the man of gray hairs.-
I highly doubt an omniscient being such a God would care if you love him/her or not. God loves unconditionally without asking for it in return. Those loving Bible quotes are an example of how man has used fear and intimidation to make followers adhere to their beliefs.
The thread question should not be why does God let these horrible things happen, but why do we let them happen. -
Actually, you misrepresented every one of these verses! God does not NEED our love at all for He IS LOVE.
What He condemns is the rejection of the ultimate expression of His LOVE toward you and I - Jesus Christ.
Apparently, you have never understood what John 3:15-17 actually is saying...
"That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved." John 3:15-17
If you would believe on the work and person of the Son of God, Jesus Christ - you will NOT face the condemnation of His righteous judgment - but live! -
@ Defying Gravity.
Wow you hit the nail right on the head !
I with you 100% on this one
Taffy1957 - www.diy-pc-fix.com
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hummm maybe, maybe not
you got moxie filosofia-
"hummm maybe, maybe not"
exactly. It's all speculation. Just like these so called miracles, and anyone claiming to know anything about a god. People don't even know a god exist, let alone know its characteristics. -
no disrespect morgantj I was not making the point that you gleened from it, actually nm
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Buddah I was not going at it with model elaine or Fred as some people claim him/her to be lol,but glad you enjoyed it, dang what the hell did I say to you to get my comment deleated, seriously it couldn't have been as bad as some to the shit that has been flung at me lately, but it's all good in the hood I got thick skin
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Well, from a Christian perspective read here:
Eight Explanations for Suffering Found in the Bible :: www.new-life.net/sufferng.htm-
Wow, buddhaofhollywood, you clearly have anger issues.
I forgive you.
Peace to you. -
wow global girl you clearly have ignorance issues.
maybe overpopulation is a problem, maybe, famine, poverty,and the polution of the planet are just the symptoms and God has nothing to do with it, and maybe geting angry about it isn't such a bad idea
can you digg it? -
Your level of intelligence is, um, not glowing.
What is your education and profession, buddhaof... ?
What are you doing to help the poor? -
I just got my GED, and I am a tail less monk. I help the poor by getting them off the church crutch, and live without your hand outs.
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Well, such explains a lot.
Peace. -
actally that explains more than that. lol!
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look who's calling the kettle black, I saw you going for the jugular of that model eliane the other day, and it was pretty ugly. but i loved it! so i say:
all is fair in war and blog
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We are an alien experiment.
Yes, we were created by a superior being, but "God" has a hands off approach to see how we treat each other.
Think of the Earth as a petri dish with a bunch of extraterrestrial scientists looking down and see how we're screwing each other over.-
Man created god and uses it as a personal mental crutch.
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I like that comment solodiver, and I think it rings with a lot of truth.
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Morgantj makes a good point. -
I agree, this hands off approach is called free will. We can't blame God for the atrocities of the world when we are the ones creating them or being indifferent to them.
defygravityalways.blogspot.com -
Lol, that reminds me of the Simpsons episode when Lisa had that petrie dish science experiment and created a little world of people who worshiped her. -
That reminds me of the South Park episode where Earth was just a set and people were unaware players on a reality TV show created by Aliens.
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Didn't you just have a post on a similar topic?
www.blogcatalog.com/discuss/entry/does-god-exist-or-not-
To DrowseyMonkey: Yes, and if you read the note at the top of this discussion, you'll see how it came from that other one.
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Isn't it funny how whenever things are going bad, most of us turn to God, but when things are lovely, we forget HIM? I don't know why there is so much suffering, but I have come to accept the fact that just because there may be a God, does not mean everything will be perfect, or that children will have a wonderful life. There are selfish people in this world that care nothing about the suffering of poor children in third world countries. We can't turn to GOD and expect him to make it go away, or expect him to save all the children. If people are really concerned, then they should do something about it. That's the only way.-
Of course that is the only way, and for an obvious reason.
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@luvikavi There are selfish people in this world that care nothing about the suffering of poor children in third world countries. We can't turn to GOD and expect him to make it go away, or expect him to save all the children. If people are really concerned, then they should do something about it. That's the only way.
Balderdash. There is no way even the largest band of concerned, caring humans can "fix" the problems of malnutrition and sickness worldwide. Think about it for a minute: even if we bankrupted the richest nations on earth to provide medicines and food, we still would not address the causes of these afflictions. No human can stop the weather that causes famine, earthquakes and tsunamis, floods, drought (and don't start "global warming" on me---these things have been around since time immemorial). Our science is not sufficiently perfect to prevent or cure much of the sickness in the world, either. The ONLY way for little children everywhere to grow up healthy and well-nourished is for some omnipotent being to make it so.
Which brings us back to the OPs question: if such a being exists, why do little children, the most innocent of the innocent, suffer and die? Unspoken is the corollary as to why, while these children are allowed to starve to death or die of cancer or birth defects, are cheaters and liars, mass murderers and thieves, allowed to prosper, some of them at obscene levels of wealth? (Mugabe immediately comes to mind...George W Bush not far behind.)
If such an omnipotent being exists, then its priorities are surely screwed up. But the simplest scenario...and therefore the most likely...is that the supernatural sugardaddy in the sky simply doesn't exist. -
Actually Sweetviolet much of famine could be fixed by a large band of humans pretty easily although it would take a could of generations. All it takes is widespread access and use of birth control. -
SweetViolet so many people fell the way you do. That we are not powerful enough to take on the problems, but we are. It wouldn't take the richest countries becoming bankrupt, but it would take a even playing field of the monetary distribution through-out the world. We can no longer think nationally. We have to think globally. Each of us are intertwined and connected. Greed and the feeling that there is not enough is what has lead to a great divide between the rich and the poor.
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It is related to Karmic bonds -
Many of the commenters here are focussing on the Christian perspective, but we should not forget that Hindus and Moslems and even Buddhists have their own vision of God. Some might say that these are all the same God viewed from different perspectives, some might disagree with that claim. Even so, people of any faith (or no faith) are welcome to give their opinion here.
(Only please be nice, there may be children or grandmothers reading this. Thanks)-
I am a grandmother...in fact, my granddaughter just got engaged. Nobody needs to be nice on account of me...but it would be lovely if we were nice because it is the right thing to do.
My husband is Hindu. He says there is "one God, many paths." Christianity is but one of the paths, from that perspective.
If you believe that God exists, this makes perfect sense.
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Check out Gnostic and Platonic versions too - God is everything - unitary Logos - i.e. everything good AND evil - this is the thing that the Church has had an issue with for hundreds of years - check out stuff on Metatron and The Demiurge -
p.e. fundamental versions of religion might also be the archetypal examples of Persuasion and Influence seen in advertising - i.e. Pain then Relief. so that we're given all the hassle, fear and trouble in the world and guess what!!! Try New Enhanced Religious Sect Powder to take all those troubles away
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What would be your response to someone who said: Thousands of children are dying every day because of the imperialist government policies of the wealthy nations in Europe and America towards the Third World over the last 200 or more years, and because of exploitation by European and American business interests?
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I'd say...uhhh...DUH!!! -
I'd say "baloney!"
If European and American business interests had never come to Africa, if the white guys had just sailed on past, what would it be like here?
Would the drought and flood cycles still happen? Would famine still occur? Would children be born with birth defects? Would injured people die of gangrene and other complications that could be addressed in a modern hospital? Would Ebola exist? Malaria? Tsetse flies and sleeping sickness? Venomous snakes that can slip into your hut at night, like the spitting cobra? Do you think children would not be kidnapped and butchered, their body parts used for muti? Do you think slavery would be non-existent or that women would not be chattel?
Do you really think that if the white man had stayed away from this part of the world, it would be one big Garden of Eden? That's a fatuous notion at best. Like everything else, the arrival of white people (and their business interests) has been a mixed blessing. But it is interesting to note that the biggest problems with hunger here are not in the big cities where they are an abundance of charities to help feed and house those in need, but in the rural areas where people live close to the land as their forefathers did. But now there are roads and cars and busses that can transport a sick child to a city hospital where its life can be saved, its medical conditions treated. And although the standard of care in some of these hospital may be lower than Cedars Sinai, they are a far cry from some powdered rhino horn mixed with homemade beer and poured down a sick baby's throat!
Famine, hunger, disease, war...all those predated the arrival of the white man in Africa. And they continue to be alive and well here, even absent the influence of the white man (anybody remember Rwanda? Idi Amin?) It is too large and complex a problem to simply blame on the white man and his business interests. It has been a mixed blessing, at worst.
I am an American and I have been living in Africa for five years. -
All good points, but we (the white men) are not innocent on all these accounts.
We obviously have some effect on other countries outside of our own.
Special interests is the name of the game.
If we did not have special interests, and all the wealth of the world were distributed equally, we would not have half (or even two thirds) of the problems we have today.
Everyone effects everyone.
It's a kind of Butterfly Effect if you will.
If we all operated with everyone’s best interests in mind, I think this world would be a better place.
*Given - We don’t always know what others “need”, but if we were to operate on a kind of “Oneness” basis, with the creed that we are all connected, we would all be a lot better off.
Case & Point - American Indians and Eastern Philosophies -
closer to the reason I reckon, although medicine, sanitation, and education do mitigate a bit
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I'd say Amen! (Pun intended)
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Because Mankind SUCKS!!!
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Your question is a matter of theodicy: if an allegedly omnipotent and supposedly beneficent entity such as God exists, why do horrors and evil also exist. In way of a short answer, the way that light wouldn't exist without darkness, life without death, God couldn't exist without issues opposistive to his (or her or its) existence. That's the short answer...the longer one is for philosophers and theologians who have been attempting one since the Book of Job was on the bestseller list.-
Ahmen Brotha!!!
Halleluiah! -
I vote for "we are just a bunch of assholes" -
LMAO
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Absolutely. We must see the darkness to know there is light.
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i wreally wouldn't know , But according to eastern mythology, every sole has to work towards negating his karma. so who ever dies early has completed his duty on earth and achiives nirvana. So If God exist's and still young and poor die,i'm sure, that's the way it was meant to be.
still god bless them all.!!!-
I’m not a ichthyologist but I say those soles have it pretty rough!
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God isn't a guy, gal, good nor grievously callous. God is the goal. -
If there is a God, He/She sure is not that nice...
Because besides the children and others mentioned in the title of this thread,in the past 2,000 years, He/She was responsible for millions of deaths, millions of people killed in the name of God.
And I do not really think the few miracles put the balance right... -
the holocaust and slavery. proof that there is no god.
and even without those, the whole concept is silly anyway. really.-
Wrong the holocaust and slavery are only proof god doesn't care. If you read your bible you will find slaves are quite an fashionable thing to own. Of course if you really believed what was in the bible beating your wife and stoning disobedient children is okay too.
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I repeat. There is God and therefore you exists. If there is no GOD then there is no existence. Poverty..well GOD has something to do with it. It is man's fault of not knowing HIS KINGDOM of Abundance. GOD is Abundance ...but man limits his mere mind. He is scared of losing money..so he loses money, man is scared of being poor...so he is poor. Man is afraid of sickness...so he is sick. GOD is what you think about. If you think that you are rich and wealthy then you will be wealthy and rich. The presence and existence came from you mind. Your mind create you, your current situation and consciousness. So...that is folks. It is that simple.
lobster-ravioli-recipe.blogspot.com
seafood-pastarecipe.blogspot.com-
Sounds logical enough.
I like to think that's how it works.
God is one, we are all. We are in God and God is in us all.
We could change this experience if we all desperately wanted to.
Unfortunately, greed far outweighs love.
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Right, let's eat...
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I am still waiting for someone to define what a god is. Simply calling something a god probably doesn't make it so I am one based on the number of women over the years who have called me one while I was between their legs...
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I think in the context of the original post, the "god" refered to is a supernatural entity\deity that exist outside of time and space and created everything, or something to that effect, your run of the mill Judeo-Christian god, the evasive god - www.travisjmorgan.com/blog/2008/02/19/the-evasive-god/
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That still says nothing about what makes a god a god. Is god simply a being a being that can do something no human can? How do you design a test for godliness? My wife's answer of having a look at them naked doesn't seem like a good test even if I am sure it will be popular with other ladies...
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One of the believers will have to answer that. They claim to know so much about god.
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I am not holding my breath that they will be able to explain it, I have been waiting for an answer since I was eight...
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God is just a thought.... a belief system. The tiny voice inside your head that aspires you to do good for everyone. You good thoughts show you the right path.And that's how God exists.Your conscience is God. You are God.
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Well yes that is what my said last night...
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There are many things that probably exist beyond our time and space and hopefully, we'll understand them better with time.
But God as defined on this planet, by us, creatures that are a mere blips in this universe and time, is, I'm afraid, not one of them... -
Because that is part of life. I don't believe in the Christian God, but do believe in a god. I believe we all came here to experience things as equal souls, but with very different things to experience. For one of us, the experience is to die a horrible death at a young age, for one, it is to suffer the loss of a child, and for some of us, cruise through the life without much of a worry. Then we get to choose our next experience in the following life, I'd hate to diminish it by saying "like having another go on Playstation" but that's a pretty good analogy. That's in a very tiny nut shell. -
good question.. -
Buddha, when he was still Prince Siddhartha, had been kept from the sight of all worldly misery within his palace walls. When he finally saw old age, a corpse and a leper (I think it was these 3 things correct me if I'm wrong) he was so saddened that he left everything to meditate on the Whys of Suffering. Which is what we are still doing centuries later.
Am just including this as a kind of parenthesis to bring other religions into it. -
The universe is about 14 billions years old, human race is 0...% of it.
What makes us special? People that would not even part of statistics considering how little we have lived on this earth compared to the age of our known universe.
And we sure love to think we're different, we can't die, it can't be over.
We're so special.
So there must really be something special about us.
What exactly?
I'm dying to know... -
"The universe is about 14 billions years old, human race is 0...% of it." You mean the human race has missed out on 14 billion birthday parties that SUCKS!
I want a party!!!! -
To Shy: Imagine trying to get 14 billion candles on a birthday cake! Can it even be done?
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It would actually deserve a party if the human race live 350 millions years or more, same as the dinosaurs, approximately.
Long way to go...
I'm personally in favour of the theory of (do not remember his name ) stating that the reason we do not meet ET is pretty simple.
When a civilization gets too "smart", it self destructs itself, far before it could reach any stars...-
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fermi_paradox
Fermi Paradox basically asks the question, "where is everybody?" One of the answers is the natural tendancy to blow ourselves up.
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Maybe he hates kids. -
And quite a few others...
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God has been fundamentally proven to exist today. See Phillies, is god a fan of? -
Yes, there are tsunamis and tse-tse flies and famines, but we don't need to talk about them. We have our share of floods and earthquakes and hurricanes in the western world. But if you read your history, you find there were many famines that killed thousands in Europe not very long ago (as recent as 300 years?) but we don't hear about those any more, do we?
And the majority of diseases that kill children on such a massive scale are preventable and curable, and have virtually been eradicated in the West. Clean water and basic medicines would make a huge difference. Do you expect those things for yourself and your kids in the 21st century? Why should people in Africa expect any less?-
Didn't the west do most of those things for themselves? Why should people in Africa expect to do any less?
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So one God thread by the same OP was not enough for one week?
www.blogcatalog.com/discuss/entry/does-god-exist-or-not-
Your powers of observation continue to serve you well.
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Yeah markstoneman I agree it's too many, but you can't deny they're popular. Look at the total number of replies they got between them.
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Are they discussing the same god?
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God has given mankind free will-
Yeah...in Christian doctrine that means Heaven or Hell.
So much for free will....two whole choices. -
He did? So much for "gods will" then.
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To that I would add how sure are you of what will happen to you when you die?
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If the afterlife for those who believe is so great...what are you guys waiting for?
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God doesn't let the kiddies die, Human Greed does, and sometimes in the name of some sort of God.-
I think Rozie818 is right. Children die every day because of greed.
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Rozie's right. I believe in a "God" that gives humans free will. That means free will to fuck up. Otherwise it's not free will.-
ah, so when bad things happen to us, its our fault, when good things happen, "god did it." Got it.
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morgantj: I didn't say that! (or are you reflecting sentiments of society. When you do good, you did it. When you do bad, you did it! God didn't do ANY of it.
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Probably,overpopulation and high rate of unemployed. -
In my country, we protect people who are too weak or too old to look after themselves. We give out benefits and free healthcare. We could do the same for people in other countries, but my country hasn't got enough surplus wealth to feed the world on its own. But between all the rich countries of the world there is enough.
I think America does a lot to help people in poorer countries, but not enough, and why should America be the only one?
The rich countries are democratic aren't they? So the people can force their leaders to put world poverty on the top of their to-do lists - create a system where each country puts in an amount, and the money gets given to people according to their needs. But the government won't do it unless the people make them do it.-
Not enough people are convinced that global poverty is a top priority.
And not enough "democratic" countries are passionate about it to make a change.
Democratic governments have convinced the people that the economy, terrorism, and global warming are the top priorities.
Out of site, out of mind; if you know what I mean.
*Shrugs shoulders
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The poor countries have very rich, and most of what the US sends to these countries end up in the hands of those that live in their Palaces.
It's a endless cycle, and there are many here in the US that are in need of help, but never get it. We have vets sleeping on garbage bags, and eating out of garbage cans. They put their life on the line for country and for other countries and we treat them like garbage.
We have millions of kids that have nothing either, we just don't advertise it as much. -
I think God loves blood and watching at children suffering.
God loves weapons, sharped knifes, starvation, wars etc. Otherwise, why does he (or "it") do nothing to save/help people? -
It's not God, it's Frank
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GAD!!!
FRANK!!!
Not again!
What a weirdo.
I told you not to invite him to the Christmas party.
Sheesh!
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god has stopped monitoring us all [ or i could also say He has stopped controlling us ] since adam ate the forbidden fruit . That might be the reason perhaps .
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I think Adam was never controlled by God, even before the Apple eating event, because it was Adam's own free will that translated his temptation to action of eating the forbidden fruit.
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Could be.
Maybe he is monitoring the development of this planet every few hundred millions years.
Which by universe time, is pretty short.
Came back to wipe out the dinosaurs a few millions years ago and will come back in a few millions years to see whether he did the right thing...-
Wasn't there a theory about that, that man was put on earth as a breeding experiment by superior intelligences from outer space and that is why God is supposed to be located skywards? (Daniken et al)
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:nono: The humans creates those sort of gods and that's hell of a malacious conduct. The real god is the universal energy and not sons of man. Energy csn neither be created nor destroyed but to change its form -- life is already perfect along with all of its existence, the good and the bad, the birth and the death.-
I concur.
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Agreed
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There's lots of things that people say, about how nothing can be done to help the kids that die. Things like:
Not enough people think it's a high priority.
All the money would get re-routed to thieves in those countries.
It would be too difficult to set up.
It would be too difficult to run.
It's probably just their karma.
It's their own fault.
It's the fault of their government.
It's someone else's problem.
We're just too busy right now.
Yes, I agree something should be done but no one else is interested.
Yes, I agree something should be done but the government won't do what I tell them to.
All of these may be very good reasons for doing nothing. But just imagine being in a room with those kids and telling them those reasons why your NOT going to help them. Maybe in the children's ears, they might start to sound less like reasons, and more like excuses. -
Starving children are not the fault of God or any other supreme being. It is caused by the ignorance that humanity insists on perpetuating. When there is no need for armies or wars fought over what ever stupid reason humainty can think of then perhaps we can get down to the buisness of taking care of our children. Unfortunately it's too easy for people to blame something outside of their own stupidity for the state of our existance. Quoting scripture to justify the suffering is as offensive to me as blaming God. We forget the free will thing, is it not our own will to continue to accept overpaid gladiators who pummel each other over a piece of pigskin or the acceptance of politicians who womanize, then are forgiven by their spouses openly (stand by your man) and then expect us to forgive them back in to office. No, God is not to blame. The only ones who hold the blame is ourselves for believing the lie that we have come far just because we can pound keys on a keyboard to express ourselves or text each other about the guy or girl we slept with last night. Humanity is far from advanced and we have a long way to go.....until the children and people suffer no more.-
But According to Proverbs 16:9 "A man's mind may plan his way, but the LORD is the one who determines his steps"
So how is it not gods fault? He is after all, determining every step for every man. -
@ JohnnyGnote
Cherry picking this time of year? Many believers think that God controls everything.
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My mother is minister. Well... a really liberal hippie kind of minister. But, a minister of a protestant denomination nonetheless. She once shared a parable to our sunday school class that I will never forget. It's for kids- so don't kill the messenger in regards to the sappiness.
"There once was a Little Soul who lived in heaven. So awesome was the glory that shone in all of heaven, that The Little Soul could not see or understand who he really was... It was like trying to see a candle in the sun.
So he called upon God. "God, how can I see who I really am?" And God replied: "You must call upon yourself That Which You Are Not." The Little Soul asked: "And what is it That Which I am Not?" "You must call upon the Darkness, Little One," said God.
So the Little Soul looked around for Darkness. But heaven in all of it's glory was perfection. No other soul was less perfect or beautiful than God. The Little Soul was upset. "What shall I do?" he cried.
Suddenly another Soul stepped forward. "I will help you. I will become That Which You Are Not."
"You will? Why?" asked the Little Soul.
"Because I love you," replied the other Soul. "Because we've been all of it, you and I. We've been the good, the bad, the hot, the cold, the strong and weak. And we do it out of agreement. We do it, so that each of us can experience who and what we really are."
The Little Soul cried in glee. "Thank you!"
"But you must promise me one thing," said the other soul.
"What? Anything!"
"You must promise me that when I come to you on earth, and when I smite you... When I do the worst things to you that you could ever imagine... please do not forget 'Who I Really Am.'"
"Oh I won't!" cried the Little Soul. "I will hold you in the perfection I see you now. Forever and always!"
The End.
I know it's cliche for a teacher to tell a story. But this parable has helped me through some dark times.
Cheers all :-)
BrAZen -
Thanks to JohnnyGnote and BrazenTeacher for your recent replies. x
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What I think: The discussion shows that there are a lot of reasons why children die, but at least some of the blame must rest on you, me, and people similar to us.
So maybe we should be thankful that God (if there is one) doesn't seem to be the type of god that goes in for swift punishment for wrong-doing. Maybe we're being given lots of time and extra chances to put things right?-
nah, its only a matter of time before we self-destruct or are wiped out by a natural disaster like the dinosaurs.
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Reminds me of one of the theory that explains why you never met any ET.
When a civilization reach a certain level of technological development that allows it to destruct the world they live in, they just do it...
And it is far before they have the technology to reach other stars. -
Yes maybe we self-destruct, maybe we get wiped out, maybe you get hit by a bus tomorrow, but in the meantime, isn't it best to just do whatever you think is right? Or is that a silly question?
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"If there is a God, then why are there thousands of children dying every day from malnutrition and sickness?"
From the "Free Will Defense" perspective, this situation is caused by man-made evil, which is a necessary by-product of free will. God gave us free will, because it is intrinsically good for us and he wants to have a closer relationship with us that way. (Vs. being a robot)-
Is this opinion or fact?
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So if it is man-made, and we recognize that it's man-made, then why do we let it continue?
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@MarkPogue
I am just giving what a particular philosophical theory says on this particular case. I have not given any of my opinion.
But don't weld around the word "fact" like a magical sword. The word in your context is meaningless to many philosophers out there. (Including me) -
@filosofia
Some people (Disturbing) find intrinsic pleasure in committing man-made evil acts, while others might not be aware of the full consequence of their causal actions. Again, according to the "Free Will Defense", these acts are necessary, because free will allows any action to be committed by man, as long as it is possible to commit under the limits of natural law.
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Why waste all this time wondering if there is or isn't a god and instead, use that time to help solve so many of the problems put forth here? -
Because God lives in all things and wants that experience-
Huh? What would you do differently, what would change in your world if it was proven and verified that there was no god? How would YOU change not what would god do.
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@LisbethPixFlix
That's a meaningless hypothetical, because we cannot prove or disprove the existence of God. -
@ tdkyo
We cannot prove or disprove the existence of elves or leprechauns either, but if one dares to profess a belief in such, he/she is viewed as a crazy. -
@MarkPogue
There will be a fundamental disagreement from here on wards, but God cannot be separated with the realm of morality, at least from my vision. Granted, there are other moral theories that do not hold this necessary connection between God and morality, but to get back to your post the existence of elves or leprechauns (Assuming we do not have access to them - not real to the extent we experience the world) do not hold any necessary cognitive connection with our lives. God does at least in the realm of morality.
As you might have already known, we cannot move our discussion further due to our fundamental disagreements on the matter. -
@ tdkyo
"As you might have already known, we cannot move our discussion further due to our fundamental disagreements on the matter."
Worded like a gentleman. I respect that much of you anyway. -
There is only God, nothing else and it doesn't really bother me whether you have knowledge of God.
The greatest trick that God has played on himself/herself/itself is to deny it's very existence. The ultimate practical joke, and whether you believe it or not makes absolutely no difference in the scheme of things.
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I feel it strongly proves my point that we can spend loads of time in discussion,and still not reach one answer that fits all.
At least we can agree that we disagree. Thank you both. -
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These comments are really interesting! First of all, about the idea that all living creatures are God "in disguise" (sorry if I don't express it well) it's an attractive idea, but you have to be careful it doesn't lead to a type of fatalism. So if you see someone havin a rough time, you think, oh well, no point in trying to help, because God wants to have that experience. It can happen with the karma doctrine too: oh, those kids are dying cos they obviously did something bad in a previous life, so we got to let them suffer.
As to free will, some might say it's not totally proved that we even HAVE free will, and while there's no doubt there are some people who want to commit evil acts, most people just want to get along. Most religions tell their followers not to resist evil, because it gets multiplied. I don't think the children die because of evil actions, rather it's from people doing nothing when they could do something. It's caused by people thinking of them as from a different country, not "one of us", someone else's problem.
It's a question of where you set your boundaries. Let's say you live in California, and you hear about a hurricane that devastates New Orleans, and that the human suffering could have been averted. You could think, well that's nothing to do with me, I'm from California, not Louisiana. But most likely you would feel that you are involved because it's happened in the USA. "This has happened in MY country, I want to do something to help." So lets make new laws, bend the existing ones, do whatever it takes to make sure this doesn't happen in my country again. But the African children? Well they are in Africa, that's nothing to do with me.
If we had a perspective of ourselves that allowed us to consider ourselves citizens of the whole world, with our boundaries being the round limits of the entire planet, we might quickly start to do something about those children.-
God also takes on the compassionate role, it does not mean that there is inaction, in fact quite the opposite. There is an Indian term Dharma, I would in this case translate that as Right action, action which is appropriate to take for the benefit of the God in all others.
First there was one, then that one became many to experience every possibility and the ultimate end experience being for each of those trillions of beings to experience Love. With out the duality there is no-one to love. This is a journey of Love, from unconscious to conscious.
At one level there is free will, at another the idea of it is meaningless because the real question would be better phrased as "Who is it that experiences free will?"
The recognition of Divinity does not mean anything goes, with knowledge comes responsibility. -
Well said acoustic.
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[So maybe we should be thankful that God (if there is one) doesn't seem to be the type of god that goes in for swift punishment for wrong-doing. Maybe we're being given lots of time and extra chances to put things right?]
I whole hearedly agree, if there is a being that listens then the old adage that, sometimes the best prayers are unanswered ones, could apply. Often when we pray are we not talking to ourselves and in so doing appealing to the God within ourselves. I often look at my children and I can see them changing right before my eyes, at times I start to believe that this is God, and if there is a god wouldn't it make sense that the children would be more likely to represent Him/Her than a bunch of misaligned adults who have lost there way in the world. "Suffer the little children to come unto Me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God" perhaps the reason so many children suffer and are abused is that we fear we have lost something they still may have and the reminder of it causes people to want to take it away from them. Who knows, yet I ramble......-
ah, the tyope of god that prefers a slow painful punishment as opposed to a swift punishment. Got it.
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To JohnnyGnote: I like your last reply. And it brings us very near to getting a sensible answer to the original thread question.
What about this as a possible answer: God "allows" these things to happen because God has given us free will. Free will is given to us, because without it, we would not have the capacity to love. Love, to be real, must be freely given, not forced or determined.
So God has given us free will. But the exercise of free will has also a nasty downside to it. It allows us to commit selfish acts, and it is this that is causing the children to die from malnutrition and sickness. None of us has any excuse. Each person has the individual power to help others, especially in rich countries like ours where we all have some surplus cash. And collectively, we live in democracies, where the people can tell the government what to do, and we have the right and the power to dismiss them if they don't do what we say.
So, from both an individual and a collective point of view, it is our fault. That means it is our duty to put it right again.-
But According to Proverbs 16:9 "A man's mind may plan his way, but the LORD is the one who determines his steps"
That hardly sounds like free-will. That sounds like gods will. Determinism. -
To morgantj: With the greatest respect, you are deflecting attention away from what is important by these hair-splitting arguments. The part of my comment which was talking about free will was not an assertion of opinion; it was the setting of a basic premise, an assumption, an "if-statement", a "let's suppose". The important line in my last comment is the final line, as I thought should be obvious. Please disagree with that if you will. Or maybe even agree with it?
And it's always a bad sign when an atheist starts quoting from the Bible. (lol) -
The quote was used as a reference in support of my argument against yours. You said, supposing "god has given us free-will..." And your whole argument depends on that premise. The quote I provided shows that the bible says that god has "determined" our every step (supposing he exists to begin with). Which is contrary to him giving us free-will. Free-will to think and plan, but not free to act on those thoughts or plans. What's the point in that? This is hardly deflecting attention, this is addressing your premise head on, and crumbles everything below it that it built on that premise including the conclusion. If god is determining our every step, then we have no control over what we do, so how can it be our fault? According to that scripture of course. Are atheists not allowed to quote the bible? It doesn't matter if I am an atheist or not, I quoted it to support my argument that according to the bible, it says god is control of us, we are puppets, and he is the puppetmaster. It's a good sign when someone has supporting evidence to support their argument.
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Does it makes sense,to be angry with God because he permits suffering? Not when you consider that God has promised to end all suffering. Nor does it make sense to feel that God causes bad things to happen. Many tragic happenings are simply the result of random events. Imagine, for example, that the wind blows a tree down and it injures someone. People may call this an act of God. But God did not make that tree fall down. The Bible helps us to appreciate that such things are simply the sad result of "time and unforeseen occurrence."—Ecclesiastes 9:11.
But if their is someone to blame it's Satan and his demons because in the Bible it says that most of the suffering is due to
Rev 12:12 On this account be glad, YOU heavens and YOU who reside in them! Woe for the earth and for the sea, because the Devil has come down to YOU, having great anger, knowing he has a short period of time.”-
unforeseen occurrence? I thought it was believed that god knows and sees all. There is nothing unforeseen to god. Therefore he allowed the tree to fall down when he was in power to prevent it.
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Indeed if there is a god (a supernatural creator being as depicted in the bible) then he has been depicted there as being omnipotent (all powerful and in control of all things), omniscient (all knowing, seeing and hearing) and omnipresent (present everywhere at all points in time). And, if you ascribe to belief in that biblical construct of "god" then you are led to conclude that it's god's will that there thousands [hundreds of thousands] of children dying every day from malnutrition and sickness.
The cop out position is that it's all satan's fault; that he and his demons have dominion over the earth and are to "blame" for the starving and dying children. The word "blame" really amounts to "being lame" because we all know that if we chose to be compassionate and share food (feed the hungry and heal the sick) rather than hoarding it and accumulating wealth from its sale and hoarding, we had we could create a distribution system so that all would eat then no children would be starving and dying. Stating the forgoing which is self evident always brings out the ignorant, who profess to be christians but shout that sharing is pinko communist and/or "socialist" and hunker down over their treasure chests (bank accounts, while they self-righteously maintaining that ridiculous McCarthyism "god hates communists". Obviously, they know sweet muck all about how the original members of the early christians lived or they are in a state of denial about it. -
To timethief: Fantastic stuff, I totally agree. More power to your elbow!
Have you ever thought of running for president?
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Why blame God....why not look at what we, as people aren't doing? Why don't we help others?????-
Which brings me to my first question in this topic, Why does God send rocks crashing down from the sky as church groups on their way to help kids in South America are passing by? -
Why do you say God does that? How are you to know the inner workings of what goes on behind the scenes? How come you know the 'answers'
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I assume he is the cause because thats what I would do if I were God.
To quote Al Pacino in his role as Lucifer, "God likes to watch, He's a prankster" .
Ah, Fun times.-
Oh, Kryptonitemare...you just want to be a puppeteer?
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No. I want to be Al Pacino.
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Is God Really Up There?
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They say He’s up there
Looking down on you
He’s really busy
Ceasing troubles for all you do
They say He helps you
But can you ever believe?
When you are most in want
His face can never be seen
If He’s really there
There wouldn’t have been so many sufferings
You’d tell me they are essential; for they teach the way of life
Then, if life is so difficult, why can’t He make it light?
If He’s there, why can’t He enlighten this world?
With his ever vivid light
And bring a ray of new hope
Upon every evil dark night?
And if not all this, why would He not save himself?
Man has made so many partitions in His name
For the sake of temples or churches
But He quietly bears this discrimination of his fame!
But never mind, I know He is
For world has made so many amends
And it’s not man who does it all
It’s HIM and I’ll be waiting till He reads this call!
meghnaspages.blogspot.com/2008/08/is-god-really-up-there.html-
Thanks Meghna, it's lovely to see a comment from you in this thread x
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Looks like no one knows the answer???
Your God fails when you fail. So you have to keep working... folks -
My answer is we learn compassion, love, forgiveness and empathy by helping others...these are essential lessons. By helping others we learn these essential lessons. It is our responsibility to help others and not pass the buck.
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I totaly agree!!!
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this it is man's fault 4 sure... God give us the free arbiter to do what we want to do with this life.. if we are wrong it is not the God's fault...4 the kids that they are starving , they are guilty the parrents and the countryes where they are....
just 5 reasons why children are starving:
1. Political unrest and civil wars
2. Diversification of funds to increase military budget
3. Economic conditions
4. Drought
5. Many families are child headed families because of HIV/AIDS
The HIV pandemic has caused many children to loss parents meaning a plunge into poverty, end of education, and starvation escalates.
I really don't think that God has to do smth with all this!-
But according to Proverbs 16:9 "A man's mind may plan his way, but the LORD is the one who DETERMINES his steps."
So yes, you can blame god for mens wrong-doings. God has already determined mans every step. -
To bjork: I agree with you. Maybe four of the things you listed are entirely man-made problems, and the other one, drought, could be easily dealt with if the governments of the world took action, instead of fomenting war and greed.
Whether God exists or not really makes no difference to this discussion. In either case, the plight of the children is still humanity's fault, in other words, our fault. -
filosofia, it DOES make a difference to this discussion whether god exist or not because I will remind you that the very topic is, "IF THERE IS A GOD, then why are there thousands of children dying every day from malnutrition and sickness?"
And since according to the bible, god determines our every step, and if humanity is the cause of this suffering as you say, then it is gods fault. He determined humanities steps! He is in control! Why does god do this?
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God love the children.,why He would make them bad things???
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Perhapss, they are collateral damage in an attempt by god to test your faith! Sick huh.
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Most people just don't have the balls to admit "God" is a fallacy.
When they are cornered, they conveniently make up excuses for their "God" figure by saying, "It's God's will" or "God doesn't work like that" acting as if they wrote the rulebook on God's actions. Like I've said many times....most don't believe in God, they believe in the fairy tale! -
If there is a God, then why are there thousands of children dying every day from malnutrition and sickness? or
Why human system destroys the earth?? Why famines?? Why Global-warming?? And Why God let these happen??
Ok some questions to the questioners
What makes you think that all these things bad and your ideas are good?? What is Bad?? and what is Good?? define me!!
Can't you see that your Good can be bad for another one??
Good and Evil are subjective and not well-defined concepts.
But God is the God of Good and (also)the Evil.
And God exists..
Here is my proof
kudai.bloggum.com/yazi/mathematical-proof-of-the-existence-of-god.html-
If good and bad are subjective and not well-defined then how can any believer have any idea if they are going to hell or heaven if they can't tell if they are doing good or bad?
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As a child I was turned off to god for these reasons. After hearing about his "works", who in their right mind would love, let alone respect a deity like that? The christian god is Lawful Evil for sure. -
yeah....because we will be able to figure this out through discussion.....I feel like i am back in school taking a metaphysics course or studying the philosophy of religion. God is a belief structure that only exists in ones imagination and is only as real as someone chooses to believe. God is a human creation. words are a human creation. doesn't it seem odd/unfair then to say that it is ok to use words to prove the existence of god? words and communication are a tool not a form of observation or proof for anything. -
in my opinion the bible is nothing more then a creative way to tell people how to treat eachother...i think it is wrong to take it literally or to think that it can be adopted into any culture or time period as the only way to live. I believe it was nothing more then the first constitution for a single group of people and should not be taken out of its time or context.
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Hi everyone, your friendly thread-starter here! Can I just respectfully remind everyone that this discussion is not about whether or not God exists as such (that's the other thread "Does God exist?)
This one is entitled "IF God exists, then why..."
The idea being that THIS discussion is to find out why there is that situation, on the ASSUMPTION that there is a God (of whatever type).
The OTHER discussion is for the simple question of yes or no.
Thanks for your understanding... -
Perhaps, the children are collateral damage when god wants to test believers faith.
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Here's what I want to know: If the Bible is the inerrant word of "God," why doesn't it contain anything USEFUL?
I can't find a shred of Calculus in the Bible. Or Physics. Wouldn't God want to give his chosen people a technological advantage?
Guide to sanitizing drinking water? Nope.
Guide to proper crop rotation? Nope.
An explanation of what ails people (bacteria, viruses, fungii, etc.) and how to control diseases? Not a word.
What the Bible DOES teach is how to make yourself a slave to an idea.-
But how would you grow as a person if he just gave you this knowledge? This is why cancer and AIDs exist. It build character and tests our faith. With the answers, life would be pointless.
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Occam's razor!
"There is no god, the Bible is a work of fiction, and it contains nothing useful" is a MUCH simpler explanation. -
VooodoooooK ... have you been watching the movie "Contact" again? -
Never seen it.
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To voodookobra: In reply to your earlier comment, where you said, "Here's what I want to know: If the Bible is the inerrant word of "God," why doesn't it contain anything USEFUL?"
I agree totally with your argument, but I just want to insert a little point of fact that sometimes gets forgotten about. The vast majority of people of faith, or people who believe in God, (Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, etc) do NOT accept the Bible as the inerrant word of God. Furthemore, a very large number of Christians, although they may revere the Bible as a book of wisdom, do not see it as inerrant. The Catholic church, for example, which has a lot of followers worldwide, does not insist on the inerrancy of the Bible.
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Speaking of children dying:
Maybe because Christian Organiziations that help them (like, let's say, the Christian Children’s Fund) don't accept money (17,000 $) collected at charity auctions because "Dungeons and Dragons" (evil, satanic roleplayer stuff) was sold there?
8minutesold.com/?p=76 -
Because we have free will and the powers that be don't want to help. They just want to be in charge. But hopefully, tomorrow we will have positive change and this morality question about starvation may be correctly addressed.
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@morgantj;
I'm not the person who will decide what is good or bad for other people. Actually people has to make their own decisions.
I mean that you'r using subjective and not well-defined concepts in your sentences like "believers, Hell, heaven" So it's impossible to understand an unwell-defined things(Good&Bad) using other unwell-defined things.-
The problem isn't that I am using subjective terms, the problem is that the terms are subjective. So the question still stands - If good and bad are subjective and not well-defined then how can any believer have any idea if they are going to hell or heaven if they can't tell if they are doing good or bad?
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Yes, the terms are quite subjective and relative. (The main problem)
While a believer thinks that he/she did smtg so good, it may instantly becomes an evil thing. Noone can be (100%) sure about what he/she has done good or bad..
My answer to your question: "Anyone regardless of his/her relegion and what he/she has done in the past good or bad will be(at last) in their heavens"
But one can define his/her struggle as a Hell..or one can define his/her heaven as a hell comparing the others. One can define smtg good or bad.
it's all about the definitions we named..They are too much radical.. Why isn't smtg good and bad at the same time?? Why should it be black or white while it's gray actually ??
So it's useless to discuss the subject using these terms. That's what i am trying to say.. -
As Blaise Pascal, the French mathematician was saying at the end of his life:
- If I do not believe in God and He does not exist, nothing can happen to me
- If I believe in God and He does not exist, nothing can happen to me.
- If I believe in God and He does exist, nothing can happen to me.
- If I do not believe in God and He does exist, I could be in trouble
So I better believe.
Old mathematics, I guess... -
Now, if you only knew which god to believe in! You must also know what all their requirements are! You can't believe in them all because many are known for being jealous if you believe in gods other then them. Also, you risk being punished for only believing because you want to avoid going to hell not because you really love god. You also don't know if that god will punish you for not using the brains, logic, and reasoning he gave you and for believing in him without any evidence at all. Good Luck with that! Old logic, I guess.
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@morgantj
Ur basic assumption: God's have Human sins, i.e.. they are/ can be jealous.
My basic belief: God's are above human sins. And any book , any law, any church claiming MY God to be otherwise is not acceptable to me. Use ur brains, logic to separate claims from the facts. And to decipher the meaning urself, instead of accepting other's interpretations.
Good Luck.
P.S. ... God might not have been entirely captured in texts/ buildings -
The Christian god is a jealous creature, and so are many others.
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Don't believe in that entirely then
I have not read Bible completely, so I can't argue with you on that. (tried to do that, couldn't... will try again someday )
God is there to give you strength, not to weaken u by superstitions or confuse u by having the same sins that he advocates to get rid of!!!
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totally agree with farangrakthai
P.S. Love ur profile pic -
God does exist. There are so much pains and sufferings in the world today because people do not go to HIM and don't look to HIM for help. -
Readers of this discussion may be interested to read the following blog post thegentle-snail.blogspot.com/2008/11/world-refugees-day-10th-november-2008....
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Some people on this thread have argued that the problem of the starving children can be taken as a sign or proof that God doesn't exist.
Others have seen it as some kind of test that God is giving us.
If it really is a test, then we're failing it. -
Maybe god is just an asshole? No-where does it say that omnipotence and being an asshole can't go together. Hell I would be an asshole if I created an entire universe under my control.-
So you are saying that god may lack omnibenevolence?
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Quite simple: we humans have chose to do our own thing instead of doing what God would want us to do. -
dont blame God why thier id malnutrition..
but blame poeple who did not let poeple learn and educate and give proper job to have a good life,
no learning about life poeple will not take care of themselves
no education poeple dont understand which is right and wrong
no job they dont have a proper food and needs in every family...
dont blame GOD ever
everythingforfreenow.blogspot.com-
Why not blame god? According to Proverbs 16:9 "A man's mind may plan his way, but the LORD is the one who determines his steps"
He is the one determining their steps! Even if they planned to do otherwise! God is respsonsible. Apparently it must be part of his master plan to make all these children to die.
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Some people say that God exists, but that the bad things in the world, like for example the fact that kids are allowed to starve to death, is purely a consequence of man's rebellion against God, and of man's selfishness. Do you think that's true?
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Hahah, that's great!
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Not to be mean spirited or an ass, but if people didn't die from various causes, then the earth would be over populated with humans and thus that within itself would be somewhat of a disaster...um, I have no opinion on whether or not god exist, as a future scientist I definitely don't want to take a position on this that could hurt my career as I have heard that scientist who openly believe in god are passed over for jobs, but that's just what I have read or heard, I have no confirmation of this happening to anyone I know
oh, and (if god exists) then people dying would be his way of telling us to appreciate life, and not be greedy, and possibly telling us to help others less fortunate.-
Wow, I really sympathize with your situation, and no doubt there are others who are in it too. To be passed over for a job in science because one believes in God? Sometimes the scientific community seems to behave quite as arrogantly as the church did in the bad old days of the Inquisition.
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If the Judeo/Christian construct of god does exist and what the bible indicates is true then god's will is being done on earth. If what Jesus taught is to be a loving and compassionate peacemaker is the way to go, then the 2 billion Christians on earth ought to be following his commandments to feed the hungry and heal the sick, and rather than hoarding their wealth on earth, they ought to be sharing it with the less fortunate. If they aren't doing that but instead are protesting every attempt to create a just and compassionate society by yelling "socialism" and upholding right wing political agendas instead, then it would appear that they are not obedient followers, who are doing god's will.
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How do you know they are not feeding the hungry and healing the sick? Their founder (that's Jesus, by the way) expressly told them that when they give to charity they should do so secretly, and not to make a big show to the world of what they were doing. So they might be doing a lot for the hungry and sick, but you wouldn't know about it...
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@filosofia
Do you actually believe this? -
@filosofia
How do you know they are not feeding the hungry and healing the sick?
Are you kidding? BTW I made no allegations I used "if" throughout what I said.
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Clearly those children are not believing in the right god.-
I don't see how we can ever know what those children believe in.
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Yes, you're right. Maybe what they believe doesn't make a difference?
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What they believe in probably makes a difference to them, but it doesn't really make much difference to us...
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Or to the fact that they're dying from malnutrition and sickness.
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If the world were to be perfect...then who would strive for heaven? (and/or be scared of hell?)-
I thought the strive for heaven and avoidance of hell wasn't supposed to be ones motivation to do good. If one is only good because of these operant conditions, it devalues the acts.
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Words like heaven and hell are very tricky words to use in a rational discussion, since they convey widely different meanings to different people.
In most interpretations, the two words stand for outdated and largely irrelevant concepts. Pearly gates and St Peter with a clipboard etc... A reasonable definition for the modern world might be: Heaven=Closeness to God and Hell=Separation from God.
Perhaps an oversimplification, but at least, a rational attempt at an interpretation. -
filosofia, so the "hell" as described by the bible as being an everlasting lake of fire perpared by the devil and his angels for sinners to endure everlasting torment is irrelevant? That is not hell? That is outdated? Based on what criteria do you pick and choose what parts of the bible are outdated?
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So the "hell" as described by the bible as being an everlasting lake of fire prepared by the devil and his angels for sinners to endure everlasting torment is irrelevant?
Woow! Sign me up! -
To morgantj: The criteria I use? I'm a free spirit, I can pick and choose what I like. Are you seriously saying that if I happen to think one or two things in the Bible are true, then I'm somehow forced to accept the whole lot as true? Surely you're not saying that, are you?
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You think only one or two things are true in the bible?
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I don't think "God" micromanages us. It's up to us to do something...-
Then people might as well stop wasting their time praying because what they are praying for is essentially an interaction of god that would be micromanagement. Such as - Dear lord, please help me pass my final exam tomorrow, I pray.
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I like the term "micromanagement" :))
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"Hell", the absolute drama, is a pure efficient causality, and "pure" means it is an errant cause, that is to say separated from its final cause. It is the hand cut off from the rest of the body, only the separated efficience remains. -
I have a 15 yr old Daughter who has Nephrotic Syndrome which is a chronic kidney disease. My Daughter was healthy her whole life up until a year ago when she suddenly became very ill and had to be admitted into Cardinal Glennon which is the Children's Hospital in our area. After seeing all the suffering she went through at that time and all the prayers from family, and friends, noone will ever convince me that there is not a God. God was the only one that could have spared my daughter from all the pain and suffering she was going through. Her condition was so serious that at one point she began having some heart problems and I know God spared her life. Anything could have went wrong at any one moment at that time. Why this happened to my Daughter I will never know. I do know that sometimes God will allow certain things to happen maybe to make us stronger or because it's all apart of a bigger plan he has in store for our lives. The Bible mentions that God works in mysterious ways. My Daughters illness has now also brought her closer to the Lord. As the saying goes "if we're ever gonna see a rainbow we gotta stand a little rain". I have always and will always believe that yes, there is a God. -
Why not blame god?-
Exactly, I find it amazing how an innocent man can be put in prison for 30 years for something he didn't do to begin with, and when, with science, they determine he IS innocent, and they release him, he thanks god for being released! Um, don't forget to thank god for putting you in there for 30 years to begin with! I find it amazing how believers pick an choose what to attribute to god. It reflects an obvious confirmation bias. The bad things they attribute to a cuase that is beyond their understanding, but the good things, oh Thank god for those things. It makes more sense if there simply isn't a god.
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It seems to me that it's equally as incorrect to blame God for putting him in prison, as it is to credit God with engineering his release. Likewise, I don't really see how anyone can blame God for the sufferings of little children, when we already established in this discussion that those sufferings are the fault of man, not God.
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The sufferings being the fault of man has not been "established," it is just an opinion. Some here say that god makes those children suffer so that others will appreciate their lives more. Some have said that god does not intervene and therefore just allows the suffering. Many have said that god performs miracles and answers prayers, but doesn't do anything ill, some say god gave man free-will which makes man responsible for his actions and not god, some say everything is god's will and is therefore determined by god, some say it is how god tests your faith, etc... There are all kinds of opinions on the subject, nothing has been "established" as fact on the subject.
I agree that god shouldn't be credited for his release, because if he can credited for his release then he can just as easily be credited for his imprisonment.
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Any evil on earth is not of God, but of man. Caused by man's desire of independence from God. The fall of man separated us from God, loosing accesses to His knowledge, therefore having to base our understanding of what is good and bad on such things as how they make us feel...
Ever experienced how what we thought was bad shun blessings and when we acted on emotions, how much we regretted our decisions?
If the whole world turned to God, gained His knowledge through the Spirit, become Christ-like and live His standard, do you think those things would happen? Staying focused on God's character here...
He gave us free-will. Unfortunately many still haven't got the meaning to life, so we suffer. What we see is the consequence of sinful nature. This doesn't deny God's love for us, but I believe Him not allowing such things in the world would generally be Him breaking His promise of free-will.
We reap what we sow... harsh stuff!-
AMEN!!!!! Thank ya lord. Praise JESUS
(just watch how much flak
I'm fixing to take for what
I just said)dangermouse!
can I getta AMEN "what"!!! -
Holly: I'm an engineering major, math minor, college student, and my hobbies include cryptography and lexicography; and I struggle to read your posts.
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The answer for all of pain and suffering is found in one verse:
"And the LORD God commanded the man, saying, Of every tree of the garden thou mayest freely eat: But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Genesis 2:16-17
Mankind rejects God's absolutes - and even today, there is nothing new under the sun...-
or simply, "The LORD is a man of war." Exodus 15:3
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In the last days, HE will roar out of Zion and save HIS people - yes! The question is, "Who is HE saving HIS people from?"
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@creemos
IMO you have clearly strayed from addressing the OP into fear and guilt based preaching and bible pounding once again. Haven't you got a pulpit ie. a blog and a captive flock of sheeple ie. readers somewhere that you can spiel that fear and guilt based crappola to?
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If one believes in Reincarnation then Bad karma from previous lives seeps into a new life of suffering until you can get out of the cycle of birth and death. It's called cause and effect but not on a linear level.
In Divine reality though nothing is separate and all is part of the One..all these experiences, painful or otherwise are to make us realize Dive attributes such as compassion and love and mercy..so when you see a hungry Child you cloth and feed it, despite what cause and effect has done to it..this is the paradox and dual understanding of the Circle..where there is no point..it's all one interwoven experience. This is the only way I can make sense of it. -
God has never claimed he would prevent the starvation and illness ofchildren in the first place.-
@ jsjeffo
Yes I think you're right. But there are people on this discussion who think God SHOULD prevent it, and the fact that God doesn't constitutes for them a proof that either:
God has no power, or
God is nasty, or
God has favourites, or
God is non-existent.
These people seem to be saying that if they had God's power, they would use it directly to prevent the sufferings of children in the developing world.
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Ok, I see your point. However. We have this planet; a planet overflowingly abundant with plants, animals and innumerable resources. We have two hands, with a brain to direct them.
What more do you want?
I think it might do well for people to stop blaming a God they don't believe in for the world's problems because WHAT on Earth is that going to achieve?
If you cannot feed a child, then don't breed a child. Sorry if this sounds harsh... I'd go on more about this but I think the points been made!-
You made some good points there. But can you clarify what you meant by "If you cannot feed..."
Are you saying that the suffering of the children is the fault of their parents for bearing them in the first place? -
I have heard from theists that children are gifts from god. Why would god give you a gift you can't even support or feed? Hardly seems like a blessing. It is more like torture. Here you are, this child is a gift from your loving god, now watch him suffer and die because you are unable to support him. God knew you wouldn't be able to support the child, but gave him to you anyway.
It doesn't makes sense. What does make sense, is when you take god out of the picture. If there is no god, it makes perfect sense. -
Actually children are born as a result of people having sex... Thinking of them as gifts from God is rather poetic, but not amazingly scientific.
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I agree, and the idea of god is not amazingly scientific either.
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@SpiritualBloggers I agree with you... almost
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To morgantj: I never said the idea of God WAS scientific. I just thought that your assertion that children are gifts from God wasn't very scientific, that's all. It also deflects attention away from the real issue, which is that someone made a comment that seemed to imply that if the poor people can't feed their children, then they shouldn't have them. If I've understood it right, it seems a rather callous view of the situation, don't you agree?
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I didn't assert that children are gifts from god, I said, I have heard theists say that children are gifts from god. And I was commenting on that in relation to people having children they can't even feed. Read it again.
I agree with the comment that poor people shouldn't have children if they can't feed them. If one can't feed or support ones children, the child will starve to death. Seems rather cruel and irresponsible to me.
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Proof that God is unfair (a joke)
KEY
[No. bullets used]
[1]- Abraham Lincoln (Died)
[1]- Franz Ferdinand (Died)
[4]- John Lennon (Died)
[2] - JF Kennedy (Died)
[3] - Mahatma Gandhi (Died)
[6] - Malcolm X (Died)
[1] - Martin Luther King (Died)
[3] - Jesse James (Died)
[0] - Julius Caesar (Died)
[9] - 50 Cent (Lived) -
We only have a human understanding of what happens on this earth and aren't in heaven where everything is ideal. Good and evil are here. It's evil that causes the ultimate suffering. A thread that grows and grows. Hard times draw us closer to God. Easy times have us drifting away. We start worshipping material things and then all the trouble starts. Like in the Old Testament when the Israelites started worshipping the golden calf. Can you imagine how that made God feel? He had just led them through the desert and hovered above them in a cloud. The KNEW him but still wanted the gold.
Hugs, JJ -
Trying to answer as a philosopher ...When people ask, why does a loving God let such astounding mayhem happen? I have another question. Why does God let anyone die?
No doubt, God could have made the universe in such a way that nothing ever went wrong. But he didn’t. He created a world that is free to be itself—and to express its identity in continually fresh and creative ways. For some reason, he thinks that is good.
Maybe that’s because it takes such a world, a wild and free world, to be the breeding ground for things God values in human beings—things like courage, devotion, loyalty, self-sacrifice, kindness, generosity, hope, trust. By anybody’s reckoning these are a few of the noblest features of humanity. Would they be in a world without risk, danger, calamity—and death? And where would love be? Love isn’t just a matter of getting along. Love is made real in the crucible of suffering, of self-sacrifice, of loyalty and devotion against the odds.
As much as we hate to admit it and hate to talk about it and throw stones at those who do, we all die. We all die of something. Whether we die of "natural causes" or of "natural disasters" makes little difference in the end. Either way, we die, and nothing will stop it, regardless of how kind we are or how mean we are or how smart, careful or wise we are.
God could stop all natural movement of earth, air and water. He could stop humans from making mistakes, making unwise decisions, being selfish, or stubborn or rude. God could have made a "Stepford" creation in which everything worked automatically. But he didn’t. God created a world in which something far more valuable than long physical life could exist. He made a world in which love can exist and grow. In love, humans pull together and respond to suffering and calamity. In love, humans forgive one another, help one another, encourage one another and stand by one another.-
Some say that the original intention of God was that the world should be perfect and peaceful and harmonious and happy. But the rebellion and independence and arrogance of mankind caused evil things to start happening. This caused a chain of more evil coming from the original evils to give us the world we have today. AND YET, they say, even out of all that, we still see noble qualities like courage, devotion, love, self-sacrifice, kindness growing out of the midst of all that evil, almost as it were in response to that evil.
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As you say things like, courage, devotion, loyalty, self-sacrifice, kindness, generosity, hope, trust, love etc... are only valued as noble features relative to a world with risk, danger, calamity, death, uncertainty, hate, etc... If the world WAS without risk, danger, calamity, death, etc... we may not value those other features you say are noble. But so what? In such an enviroment that would be okay. Those things are only valualable because they are as you say relative to the chaos. Without the chaos, we may not have those things, but we wouldn't miss them either, because we would not value them as we do now.
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I've asked myself this question and I've found an answer while studying the Bible. This answer satisfied me... I'll share it with you.
First I realized that God's intention for the Earth was paradise. He created the Garden of Eden for that purpose.
Second I realized that God created us out of love. He loves us.
Third, I realized that since he loves us, he had to give us free will.
Fourth, I realized that it is this free will, that has caused all of the wars, crimes, death and illnesses in the world since time began.
Had Adam and Eve never sinned (or at least felt sorry for their sin), sickness, death, pain, war, etc... would not exist. Once they sinned, God removed their potential for perfection.
Why??
The key thing to remember is that he wants us to have free will. How can free will and perfection ever exist in unity? Jesus indicated that few people would be in paradise (or heaven) these are the people who have realized and obey God's word... while they can never achieve perfection here and now, their heart desires it. God knows this. These are the people that will live in the paradise that God intended us to live in.
If God would have just zapped out Adam and Eve and started over, the next 2 would have probably sinned again. We see the repercussions of sin. We see that we cannot have peace, health and prosperity under our own rule... hopefully many of us will realize this and follow God and Jesus with sincerity and love.
The devil is in control right now... he was hurled down to the Earth and can no longer travel back and forth between heaven and Earth.. this is why the increase in these sad things has occured.
Here's a simple example that I use to explain things to my daughter.
- there's a child in math class... the math teacher puts a problem on the board and then follows it with the solution. The child thinks he has a better way to solve the problem so he raises his hand. The teacher tells this child that there is NO other way and he MUST do it the teacher's way. That child leaves that classroom still believing that his way is better than the teacher's. Now let's say the teacher, instead of telling the child there is no other way, allows the child to attempt to solve the problem his "better" way. The child approaches the board and starts. He realizes that his way is not better and that the teacher is right. The child leaves the classroom believing that the teacher's way is the right way.
We are the children... God is the teacher... he's letting us try to solve it. We should realize that we can't without him.
Anyway.. that's my opinion on the original post. -
My first response to this question is to go to Greg Laurie who tackles this very issue in his commentary titled:
Why does God allow evil?
thescroogereport.wordpress.com/2007/04/15/why-does-god-allow-evil/ -
Why God created an imperfect world
Answer:
metaphilos.blogspot.com/2004/09/why-god-created-you-imperfect.html -
sometimes I feel that God just decided to experiment one day and created an organism, giving it everything that is needed to have paradise wherever it lived. He gave them a beautiful planet, ample amount of food, enough places to live, and a brain to decide what is right and wrong. Instead of giving them a rule book/ guidelines he gave them free will to choose and make his own rules.
He is just sitting back and seeing what is happening. May be interfering when he sees that something wrong is happening without reason. He gives strength and courage to those who believe in him and looks after them.
I guess, if he expected that humans would be able to manage on their own, he must be disappointed.
As Woody Allen said:
“If Jesus came back and saw what was being done in his name, he wouldn’t be able to stop throwing up.”
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