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Ireland rejects the Lisbon Treaty, what now?
Posted by carlgalloway • 6/13/08 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: constitution, eu, Ireland, lisbon
Today the Irelish people rejected the Treaty of Lisbon amid some pretty acrimonious accusations of fear mongering on the part of the no campaign and inept campaigning on the part of the yes bloc.
Already there is talk surfacing that the core EU nations may now go ahead and create a federal EU without the UK and Ireland, which could have severe repercussions for member states that don't join these core countries.
What does everyone think the likely outcome over the next year will be?
Edit: Here is just one background piece to read if you aren't familiar with the situation
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7453560.stm
User Comments
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Write a constitution that normal citizens can understand and leave the more arcane details for other agreements?-
That is one option I guess, however actually getting anyone to produce one might be an even bigger challenge than ratifying the existing treaty. It is interesting that Barroso is calling for the remaining 8 nations to continue the ratification process. One wonders whether Ireland will somehow be dragged back into the treaty before the end of the year through renegotiation.
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I suppose the other option would be to set Ireland adrift in the Atlantic, but Europe has been too good to Ireland for it to want to let go now.
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Almost everyone I've met in Germany, France and Spain would be quite happy to see the UK go its separate ways, perhaps even joining the US, however I firmly believe that the British Isles belong in Europe.
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Even a constitution won't save it, Mark. Many Europeans just don't feel a connection with the European Union. They all know that it has and does bring in a lot of good for them, yet they don't see any advantages in moving forwards. Like I said in another discussion here, it's high time for real inter-European discussion on where to go next. And maybe, this means having a Europe of different speeds, but unfortunately, knowing Europe's background and considering this article in the Economist of this week(www.economist.com/world/europe/displaystory.cfm?story_id=11506838), it would result in jealousy, bickering and a new power struggle. Europe faces some very tough days ahead and France/Sarkozy hasn't taken over the presidency yet.
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I don't know what the outcome will be but I think this is brilliant news.
My answer to your question of 'Why?' will probably make me sound crazy so don;t ask! :-)-
For me it isn't brilliant news. I'm looking forward to Europe become a federal nation. I may seriously start looking into ways of obtaining citizenship of one of the core continental states that is part of the Eurozone and Schengen area and give up my British passport if this threatens the long term viability of the EU
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Perhaps you should value your nationality a little more.
Yes - We in the UK get taxed a ridiculously high amount - but still, we have a good way of life. If only the NHS and Dentists would help out more! :-)
What benefit, bar the nice sun, do you gain from being a citizen of one of the EU hardcore countries (Germany, Spain, France)? -
I'm going to narrate a story about a British man living in Dover. He broke his collar bone and went to the NHS. They said it would take a long time before he would get served. So, he took the ferry to Belgium, entered a Belgian hospital, got fixed up and went back to Dover. Now, he's one of the many Europeans who visit Belgian hospitals because the service is apparently that much faster and better. Without the EU, this would all have been impossible (or at least a little harder).
And, please, the British have nothing to complain about taxes. They are one of the lowest in Europe.
Carl, you'll have a hard time to get into the Schengen zone, certainly if you aren't married to a Schengen wife. -
I already live in the Schengen zone without any issues, citizenship of a state within the zone would give me distinct advantages that being British doesn't give me, not least the ability to pass on Schengen citizenship to any kids that come along. My significant other is a Schengen citizen so assuming nothing untoward happens I should have the ability to apply for citizenship, and since I don't plan on living in the UK ever again it would make no sense to keep a UK passport
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The UK doesn't allow dual nationality I've heard, so that's of course a nuissance, but if you feel so strongly about it, you can always face the paperwork (or trámite in your part of Europe).
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@Manictastic:
I would much like to see your statistics on how taxed the UK is as opposed to other EU countries (the rich ones anyway).
@Carl
Being British means you are fully able to live and work in any of the Schengen countries with your British passport. That why the polish left Poland in their droves. (of course a lot are now returning! :-) go figure!). -
@Manictastic:
I live in Northern Ireland and I am British. I have the right to hold an Irish passport if I so choose at the same time as my british passport. So there is some flexibility there. -
I have to correct you there, the UK is perfectly OK with dual citizenship. Germany has issues unless you can prove it places an unnecessary hardship on you.
Aside from citizenship, what do you expect the result of the Irish no vote will be. Do you think the Lisbon treaty is dead, or will it be resurrected? -
It's from 2000, but ay: www.worldtaxpayers.org/statpres.htm
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I think they'll give it another go and present it to the Irish again and hope that this time they'll vote yes (just as with Nice), but of course, that will take time and the UK will then form a problem because let's face it Gordon probably won't last another year. But, normally, at the summer summit of the EU this month all will be much clearer on what will happen next.
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UK never has and I don't think they ever will consider themselves part of Europe.
Of course I never though that I would see the day France, Germany and others would give up their national identity, basically do away with national borders and adopt one currency. So I guess anything is possible. -
I am enjoying this conversation, however I will admit I am ignorant to the political ways of European countries. So please do not take this question as a putdown. My question is sincere.
What does Ireland bring to the table to be a positive of an EU union?
Thank you.-
The Irish are a wonderful bunch of people, and if you ignore the 'troubles' in the north of the island they are mostly a very peace loving group of people who tend to do things by consensus. Ireland as a nation is progressive in many ways and they bring a moderating influence to the EU that is greater in influence than their size would lead to believe
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The thing with the EU is that once you're in it, you're in it. There's no exit plan.
Other thing is that any reform of the European institutions must be accepted by ALL member states. According to the Irish constitution, international treaties of a certain magnitude must be presented to the public in a referendum. This is what happened yesterday with the given result. -
Thanks Carl. I do not have much to offer, other than my wife, step-mom and step-sister are Irish. That, And I have become addicted to Hurling, and my wife is addicted to Camogie. LOL
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Wow, Manictastic, I can see where "national headaches" can arise with that situation.
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That's part of the reason why we need to push this thing forward if its going to go forward. Right now the EU is a bloc of nation states with their own rules and constitutions and inevitably states like Ireland and the UK are going to have to give up those privileges, so of course there are a lot of teething troubles to be overcome in moving toward a federal style of government.
If the Lisbon Treaty is going die then one of the options touted by Germany and France is to push ahead with a two speed EU where the core bloc becomes a single federal nation and all the outlying states retain their limited independence but accept they will have a much reduced ability to influence future direction. In many ways they will effectively become client states, nominally independent but ham-strung. I don't think anyone really wants that as a long term solution -
www.economist.com/blogs/certainideasofeurope/2008/01/belgium_sets_a_crackin... ==> And since Belgium too is a federal state, all the governments in Belgium must approve the Lisbon treaty too. Guess they shouldn't bother now, ay
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@Carl:
Sorry for ducking out of the conversation(had some things to do etc).
Why do you want the Lisbon Treaty to be successful? Do you not realise the magnitude of what it represents? -
There were a few points that worried me in the Lisbon Treaty and if I had been eligible to vote I would have said no (I am French and did not yet register for voting): who would be crazy enough to not want their country to have a seat in the European Parliament for every 5 out of 15 years? (another way for the bigger EU countries to impose new laws for the countries that are not in power at that stage);
The army: the Irish people do not want any involvement in wars; however, signing the treaty would mean that our country would have to spend more on war and might be dragged into a war that the majority of EU countries might have chosen to support;
On the other hand, even though we are supposed to be a democracy, I don't doubt that we will be tricked in Ireland ratifying the Treaty in the future, that is what they did in France with Hitler (Sorry, Sarkozy), ratifying the Lisbon Treaty even though the French people voted no in a referendum.-
Hi sophielc,
You see thats the problem here. If your country has 'control' for 2 years - what are you going to do with your power? (I am not targeting France by the way - just saying that you don't know what the presiding country will want to do).
I see this movement towards 1 EU government as a disasterous move for anyone who values the way of live in a certain country. Over time, all laws will be the same. All prices will be the same. Essentially, everything that makes a certain country great will be slowly eroded until one day all countries talk and live the same way.
It sounds dramatic, but that is what will eventually happen.
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Coming to the discussion a little late but I would like ot offer an Irishperson's view on why the No succeeded and where to from no.
Basically there were several factors, principally, lack of understanding, despite being a well educated race, the Lisbon treaty is incredibly complex, some had fears over sovereignty, others felt Ireland's long established position of neutrality was endangered. The revolving/rotating commissioner did not go down well at all. Ireland is very much pro-European and I believe the result demonstrated a mature consideration of the proposals.
Since then there has been considerably initimidation/bullying by the media and certain larger Eurpean states especially France. President Sarkozy appears to disregard the long held EU principle of veto, in otherwords if one state does not ratify the agreement then it is dead. Ireland is the onlyt state so far which gave the opportunity to the citizens to decide. Speculation is the peoples of Holland, Czech Republic and even France would have also rejected Lisbon, if given the chance to vote. The Economist appears to be getting much attention of late, since when has it become a pillar of pro EU ? Also the british eurosceptics have also come out in vociferous support of the Irish result, but they have a different agenda. On a more general level, despite being significant contributors to the EU, the UK has always being mildly sceptical of many aspects of EU policy development. If Germany could abandon the Mark, why does UK still so long after the introduction of euro stubbornly insist on retaining the £?
Anyways to get back on topic, the Irish rejected the Lisbon Treaty for obvious reasons, not least because we are pro-Europeans, and down through the years we have consistently demonstrated a much closer affinity to the European model than other member states. Yes we have close ties with US, but much of the time this is overstated, pyschologically and definitely economic policy we are Europeans. That is not to denigrate non-European ideology, on the contrary Europe camn learn much from US and vica versa and despite the tumultous events of European history and the significant aid provided by US, there remains a sense certainly within Europe, that diversity isn't such a bad thing, tolerance appears readily available but ultimately the importance, rights and respect for the individual are paramount. When a small nation which has gained so much over the years from the EU and in spite of that, it's citizens reject the latest proposals, I think it's important to stop and take note and be too influence by cliched debates by representatives of other agendas.
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