Discussions
Is Patriotism "dead" in the United States?
Posted by iyaayasmoderator • 4/30/09 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: patriotism, pride, United States
IS there sucj a thing as Patriotism in the United States any more? Are people ashamed to show the pride of living in the United States?
User Comments
-
No, I am proud to be patriotic. I just hate that the Republican's have over the past 8 years made patriotism synonymous with right wing political allegiance.
Bullshit.-
I was taught, long ago, that I could love it or leave it. The choice is yours, no-one is making you stay. Being a patriot has nothing to do with political alignment. No-one is a slave to this country, you may think you are, but you are not. Economics, past and present presidents, and people in general cannot control if you are a patriot. You control it. Would you die for you country? Would you die trying to defend U.S. soil? Would you die trying to defend the freedom's known only to Americans?
If you answered no to any of those simple questions, you are in the wrong country. People die everyday defending America, they die for you. They put their ass on the line so you can have the very freedom of having a simple opinion. -
What did I do to deserve that tirade? I just hate that political dissent is seen as unpatriotic when it's convenient for the right to do so.
-
I agree that military service is the ultimate civic virtue but there are other patriotic virtues as well: civic participation, pride in one's community, and paying taxes all come to mind. -
I would submit that rather than pledging her willingness to die, Still's patriotism would be better measured by her willingness to make her country a better place to live. Edmund Burke said it best, "in order to love one's country, one's country ought to be lovely".
The idea that patriotism means some form of glorious death is a fantasy born of Wagnerian operas. What it does mean that one has a sense of responsibility for their nation. What we've been lacking altogether, perhaps, in the West, is that too many people have been looking out for number 1, rather than looking out for their friends, their neighbours, their country as a whole.
If Still's goal is to fight against such an ethos, I dare say her patriotism withstands the harshest scrutiny. -
I was taught, long ago, that I could love it or leave it.
Your mental set appears to be frozen in time. Inviting citizens who dissent with the continuance of war mongering to leave their country is a demonstration of intolerance. Refusing to accept change is a demonstration of fear and ignorance. There is only one constant in this universe and it is change.
military service is the ultimate civic virtue
I disagree with gtally. I stand with Siul and greencurmudgeon. IMHO willingness to work compassionately, cooperatively and constructively with your fellow citizens to establish equality and equanimity, to alleviate suffering, and to make your country a better place to live for all citizens is the ultimate civic virtue. -
And now Obama is trying to do the same thing with his side. Look st, politics is politics, people play games, it comes rough. Live with it. -
No, we liberals just enjoy pointing out the hypocrisy of the right claiming that dissent which was formerly "terrorist sympathizing" and "unpatriotic" is now a "patriotic" duty.
-
No, I know of liberals who have already played this game many times.
-
@iyaayasmoderator
You have said: "People die everyday defending America, they die for you. They put their ass on the line so you can have the very freedom of having a simple opinion."
I disagree and frankly I think that what you have stated amounts to nonsense. Defense takes place within a country's own borders when those borders are under attack by invaders.
American volunteers for military service in Iraq and Afghanistan are not defending "the very freedom of having a simple opinion". And IMO that sloganeering is a leftover from WWII propaganda that has no place in this discussion. -
Timethief, what I mean is that if you're willing to sacrifice your life defending your country, its laws and institutions, then that is the ultimate sacrifice. That may come within military service, government service, social protest, local civic service and many other forms. Don't you think there are ideas worth dying for?
-
@gtally
What you have said is: "Don't you think there are ideas worth dying for?"
Let's examine exactly what ideas you refer to. The USA world hegemony is based on military and economical power (idea - might is right). By invading Iraq, the USA attempted to fulfill their goal of controlling the entire Middle East.
Some characterize this American invasion as an attempt to steal a hydrocarbon empire from the Muslim states and peoples, surrounding central Asia and the Persian Gulf. Clearly, the American volunteers for military service are presenting themselves as sacrifices on the altar of oil.
The US government under the Bush Administration lied to Americans. They orchestrated the invasion of Iraq under the pretext of fighting a war against international terrorism or eliminating weapons of mass destruction that did not exist, and under the pretext of promoting democracy.
American soldiers volunteered to become members of the best equipped military force on the planet; to immorally invade another country; to kill people (primary non-combatants); and take the risk of being killed themselves. Meanwhile the contracted corporations headquartered in America are profiting.
Answer: There are no "ideas" that I am willing to volunteer to kill other people for. -
Generally, I'll discuss civics and poly-sci on BC, but I don't delve as deep as politics. So I'm dealing with more abstract concepts than specific politics and policies. I'll leave that to others, and try to keep my political and religious views to myself.
What I was asking is an ethical question.
If push came to shove, TT, would you fight or even die to preserve certain values and ideals you cherish and hold dear? You can take that question as social protest, military service or in any scenario you'd like. -
I am NOT cannon fodder.
-
What about a social justice protest such as the Civil Rights marches of 1960s in the U.S., where you thought you might be seriously injured or even lose your life? Would you lay your life down then if you thought it was for the betterment of society?
-
-
Please explain to me what is good about patriotism
-
nada?
-
There's nothing wrong with thinking patriotism. It's the civic glue that binds the U.S. together. It's only when patriotism becomes intractable and dogmatic that it's a harmful force.
-
So if Americans weren't patriotic the US would just disintegrate and you wouldn't know how to function as a society?
-
No, but with so many disparate communities and opposing forces in the U.S., patriotism really, really helps. The important thing to realize is that patriotism belongs to every U.S. citizen and no one has a monopoly on it.
-
it's this blind patriotism that gets me confused...all this nonsense with flags and pledges of allegiance and putting your hand on your heart when you sing the national anthem...what does all of that mean?
Shouldn't people be proud of the things that are good and condemn the things that are bad? No matter which country it is? A person's country shouldn't be praised and loved just because it is their country, it should be praised and loved if it is a good country...and as no nation is ever going to get everything right, all out patriotism won't ever be appropriate. -
Siuil, if you weren't raised in the U.S., then maybe the comforting rituals of the Pledge of Allegiance and hand over the heart at the national anthem may seem strange. But I do it proudly and with no sense of irony. Compare it to the familial love many Canadians and Brits feel for the queen. If you weren't a part of this culture, you may be left scratching your head. I've had many associates in the Commonwealth who bristled when I said I found the love of the royal family strange.
Trust me, these customs have real value and are a binding agent shared by most Americans from all walks of life. -
Still don't understand this way of thinking...I'm English and think that the monarchy is an outdated institution that should be abolished and I think that people who have any affection for the royal family don't really think enough...
What is the 'real value'?
What about my other points? -
But Siuil, you're a regular of Blog Catalog so that clearly makes you a subversive.
The other questions are common sense and rhetorical and don't really need answering. You've already answered them. -
I think about half the people in Britain agree with me on the question of the monarchy. And much of the other half think we should keep them because of the tourism...
This is what I don't get...if you agree with all the other stuff I said (I'm assuming that's what you meant?)...why do you feel a sense of patriotism and why do you participate in these patriotic acts? Surely you don't think that America is flawless? -
The "real value" is that patriotism gives a very heterogeneous society some rituals that transcend all our tribal differences. That is a worthy and beautiful thing. Patriotism also buttresses our institutions, laws and government, so it is useful and constructive. There are very few things that emotionally invest the majority of our population into the American system, but these customs surrounding our flag and country are a part of that.
-
I'm teasing you, Siuil! To answer you directly, I think America is an evolving work-in-progress, with many traditional things worth defending and many new ideas worth fighting for...
-
Well that's an interesting idea...but surely it's just pretending to be something you're not. If you all have a different idea of what America is, and is supposed to be, isn't all the 'Go America' stuff just a way of defining yourselves as different from everyone else? Sorry to bring in a fairly obscure reference, but it seems very similar to the ancient Greek concept of barbarianism...each Greek city was it's own unit that had nothing to do with and nothing in common with the other Greek states except that they were all Greek and not barbarian. The patriotism of the US is unlike that of any other Western nation and it seems like this obsession with being a patriotic American has little to do with what America actually is and more to do with being insular. Am I wrong?
-
Yes, I think you're slightly off-base because some Americans are so strident and uncompromising. Blind patriotism, American exceptionalism or unthinking nationalism are different than civic-mindedness, pride in one's country and institutions. And a sense of common belonging and common pride such as the rituals mentioned above are worthy things that merit defending. During a time of deep partisan rivalry, Thomas Jefferson said during his inaugural address, "We are all Republicans, we are all Federalists." Meaning, "We are all Americans." These flag rituals perform the same function. They can and should be all-inclusive. They are part of what creates the "United" in the United States. So U.S. patriotism creates a common ground that all American share. I do find value in that and think it is both profound and comforting.
-
What is it to be an American, though? Just someone who lives on that piece of land? What are you united by? If it's just a name and locality you aren't really united, are you?
It seems very odd for me that America's two main parties can be so different from each other...they aren't just difference of policy, they are fundamental differences about the view of the universe! There aren't many places like that in the world... It seems very much like you are united only in that you don't like people who try to kill you. -
Oh, we have a long tradition of having completely opposing political parties with absolutely nothing in common. You might call that an American institution as well. It's as old as the country itself.
Plato once said, "One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." Usually this is the case.
What makes Americans American, besides common rituals, customs, laws, borders and institutions? You could write a book about that, and you're forcing me to think long and hard about what binds my country together. At the moment, all I can say is, my country is like my car. I don't fully understand how it works, and yet the whole crazy thing works, somehow. And that I am fond and brand-loyal to both my car and my country, even when both are in need of maintenance.
-
-
"the freedom's known only to Americans?"
What would those be?-
"the freedom's known only to Americans?"
This Canadian is likewise waiting to hear the answer. -
*twiddles thumbs*
-
Don't look at me. I have no idea.
-
It's odd...it seems to be a fairly prevalent idea in the US that there is no other nation that allows free speech etc. As if the globe is just the US and North Korea! Even Jon Stewart suggests this way of thinking sometimes...
-
Americans don't twig to the fact that more equality and greater opportunities for the effective use of freedom of speech exist in the UK and Canada than in their own country.
-
-
I'm serious...I would like some proper answers to my questions!
-
There is a big difference between Patriotism, and Nationalism.
Patriots are people who love where and with whom they live (the land and the people) Nationalists love the country.
Patriots will work, contribute, fight, or walk away to help, to progress, to make the land, and the people better, happy, equal etc.. Nationalists only favor the growth and progress of the country (the nation, not the people in it).
Patriots are regular, everyday people, Nationalists are the batshitcrazy people who give patriots a bad name.
Patriots are also a New England football team
I love the land and most of the people here - I HATE what the country has done in the past and not-so-recent past to further political agendas.
And it's not "Love it or leave it" - It's like it and look for ways to make it better without trampling on everyone else along the way".-
Well no, a patriot may love his country as well, but the difference is that he doesn't believe in toying around with the natures and lives of others to represent it's "interests." He still believes in individuality, even if he also loves the mountains, the forests, the riverways, and the cities. Of course, I suppose in literary terms you can refer to those as characters as well.
-
Anok, I have never thought of you as anything but a patriot.
(meant only as a sincere compliment). -
Very eloquently stated Anok.
-
@Anok
You hit the nail squarely on the head:
"Patriots will work, contribute, fight, or walk away to help, to progress, to make the land, and the people better, happy, equal etc.. Nationalists only favor the growth and progress of the country (the nation, not the people in it).
Patriots are regular, everyday people, Nationalists are the batshitcrazy people who give patriots a bad name." -
Jeremy - to clarify what I meant by "country" to a Patriot, the country is nothing more than the people in it. To a Nationalist, the country is something greater than the people, it's something unto itself.
Still, TT, thanks *blush*
And on a side note, I can't type for a damn tonight. -
-
Well this is an idea I like...I think it needs a different name though to clearly differentiate it from the "USA! USA!"/"Deutschland uber Alles" type of thing...
-
Hey Daniel Shays freaked the hell out of the founding fathers and was the catalyst for drafting the U.S. Constitution. So we all owe a big debt to his activism.
Siuil, I like to call it "thinking patriotism," because I refuse to relinquish the term "patriot" to people with whom I strongly disagree. -
that's where jefferson's "tree of liberty...natural manure" quote comes from
-
Yeah, Jefferson had a tendency to go too far, sometimes. His rhetoric was frequently a lot more radical than his actions and personal choices.
-
Almost more of a poetic philosopher than politician. On the other hand he might have toned down his public image. He seems to be most radical when writing to Madison or Benjamin Rush, and they tended to be his most trusted friends.
-
I call it "Progressive Patriotism".
Oh, and Thanks Gtally - sorry I forgot to add your name up above *blush*
-
-
I consider myself patriotic... for instance like the original whig patriots who founded this country, I want to throw off the shackles of a corporate aristocracy!
-
I am patriotic. That's why what happened during the Bush administration was so disturbing -- the torture, wiretapping, loss of credibility in world events... If that kind of thing didn't bother you, you're not patriotic. Patriotism is not following blindly. That's not what our country stands for.-
don't forget the destruction of our financial sector
-
you also buggered the rest of us...
which raises another point... (see below)
-
-
Patriots, is your concern for you country more important than your concern for humanity?
-
Nope, because my "Patriotism" doesn't have boundaries drawn in the sand like Nationalism. The humans ARE "the country", ergo Humanity is where it's at.
-
I think they aren't mutually exclusive and in fact find a love of one's country and the desire for a better world to complement one another nicely.
-
@Anok
so, are you into the American flag and pledge of allegiance stuff?
@gtally
what if it was your country or another country that had to be destroyed? Is yours more important for the fact that it is YOUR country? What if it's less dramatic, say... your country's way of life for the development of another country...should one country change to support another? -
Hell no I'm not. I don't pledge allegiance to inanimate objects.
Although I will fly the flag upside down at protests and such - it's a sign of distress. -
@ Anok
I wish to make you a gift of a truckload of yayness....where shall I have it delivered? -
Oooh, That's one of them thar ethical conundrums, you got going there, Siuil! Along the lines of "If you had to choose, do you value the life of your child over another?" Honest answer: I don't know. But I hope it never comes down to that.
Change is inevitable, so I imagine the U.S. by necessity will have to alter its way of life, in the not too distant future. -
i find interesting the the hardcore Pledge of Allegiance types are also usually the "put the 10 Commandments in every public building" type as well--even though the latter forbids the former o_0
-
Yay! You can send it to...123 Anarchist way, Anokville, area code 06660
Heh.
Gtally - I definitely think that the US needs a change of attitude. There is no reason we can't achieve whatever goals we want to achieve without constantly trampling on other countries. I've always felt that the US was in it's Teenager phase - loud, bossy, full of piss and vinegar...and incessant know-it-alls. When in reality we're pimple faced kids with a tiny amount of life experience, and a really big attitude -
I'm wondering if siuil has ever flown th Union Jack upside down... and can anyone tell?
-
Wasn't the Pledge of Allegiance actually written by a socialist?
-
Oh, that's a good question. Siuil?
Gtally - yes it was:
The Pledge of Allegiance was written in 1892 by Francis Bellamy (1855-1931), a Baptist minister, a Christian socialist, and the cousin of socialist utopian novelist Edward Bellamy (1850-1898). Bellamy's original "Pledge of Allegiance" was published in the September 8th issue of the popular children's magazine The Youth's Companion as part of the National Public-School Celebration of Columbus Day, a celebration of the 400th anniversary of Christopher Columbus's discovery of America, conceived by James B. Upham.
Hahahahahahahaha -
Anok, in your analogy of the U.S. as a teen, where does the listening to Pink Floyd, being generally angst ridden and awkward sexual groping fit in?
-
Well, Anok...that is definitely not how us Europeans view you...no way...definitely not...nu-uh...nope...not a chance....definitely will you turn that bloody music down and pull your trousers up and sit up straight at the dinner table!
-
It's called the Union Flag when it's not on a ship...and it's upside down if the thick strip of white is underneath rather than on top...
...and I hate that bloody thing...it is a symbol of English imperialism, not unification. -
Well, we do have rather strange music (Britanny Spears, country music? Hello!) and we are definitely angst ridden, and awkward sexuality? Were not awkward about our sex and bodies! No way!
HEY are those BOOBS?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?! I hafta go to the bathroom now
-
"Wasn't the Pledge of Allegiance actually written by a socialist?"
See Anok, knowing your flag etiquette and history actually has its benefits! -
@siuil, good to know... sore subject?
@Anok--that's Awsome
@gtally--the awkward sexual groping took place at gitmo
www.november.org/stayinfo/breaking3/GitmoTactics.html
www.nytimes.com/2005/07/15/opinion/15fri1.html -
I'm just your average bleeding-heart liberal white middle-class post-colonial guilt-ridden English person...
-
Gtally - I'm so gonna throw that in someone's face one of these days Bwuahahahahaha
-
@Anok
I just read you britney spears comment (because before I had been digging up those Gitmo links) too funny
-
-
"[T]here is no reason why patriotism has to be so heavily associated, in the minds of the young as well as adults, with military exploits, jets and missiles. Citizenship must include the duty to advance our ideals actively into practice for a better community, country and world, if peace is to prevail over war. And this obligation stems not just from a secular concern for humanity but from a belief in the brotherhood of man-" I am my brother's keeper" that is common to all major religions. It is the classic confrontation-barbarism vs. the holy ones. If patriotism has no room for deliberation, for acknowledging an individual's sense of justice and his religious principles, it will continue to close minds, stifle the dissent that has made us strong, and deter the participation of Americans who challenge in order to correct, and who question in order to answer. We need only to recall recent history in other countries where patriotism was converted into an epidemic of collective madness and destruction. A patriotism manipulated by the government asks only for a servile nod from its subjects. A new patriotism requires a thinking assent from its citizens. If patriotism is to have any 'manifest destiny,' it is in building a world where all mankind is our bond in peace" --Ralph Nader (from "We Need a New Kind of Patriotism")
-
Agit8r and nothingprofound below: Both of you have stated very nicely what I call "thinking patriotism."
-
-
In the course of our history humankind has come up with two very good ideas: individual freedom and tolerance. The continual attempt to make these ideas a reality is what I call patriotism.-
Hey, well said!
-
-
I don't show pride for living in the United States. That was an accident of fate. I show pride in living and supporting what I feel are positive American ideals.-
I think that's a good point, we were born here not of our own choosing. What's to proud of?
-
This is how I feel about English pride and nationalism...Oh yes, we are superior because we happen to have been born on the same island as Shakespeare...and those people over there can't come into our country and use the infrastructure that we had no part in building because they were born on that piece of land over there... blech...
-
World domination!!!!! Just kidding.
We have a good nation. We have many freedoms. It is possible for many people to start from the bottom and through their own efforts, work to realize their dreams. Women's freedoms are pretty strong in our country. We have contributed to science and arts. We have Americans all around the world volunteering for various causes. Are we perfect? No, but there is still a lot to be proud of. -
Wow, thats a nice summary of Cheney doctrine... World domination, that is
-
There are a lot of people and people's accomplishments to be proud of - but there's nothing to be proud of simply 'coz you were born on this particular rock. - Otherwise that implies we should be proud of our country regardless of how it operates.
-
...which is what the vast majority consider to be patriotism...
-
That's what I said.
-
No, but there is still a lot to be proud of.
Ummmm ... like your humility and your ability to give credit where credit is due?
-
-
See what happens when I step out to cook dinner, give baths, and lay everyone down for bed. In appreciation for all those who commented, agreed, and disagreed. This discussion proved a valid point. There is not a "clear" definition of patriotism or what defines a patriot. This discussion took a unique direction and enlightened others with the perspectives of someone with different thoughts than our own.
Each of us has opportunities in the United States that some counties do not allow for their citizens. Everything is not because of a military action or defense, instead it has happened because, as a people, we band together. That being said in general context, we should remember our history and those who paved the way for our country.
It is disappointing, as I read back, that some chose to interject their hatred, their personal politics, and disregard, to prove what they thought was a point. No need to apologize, everyone is welcome to give what they have to offer.
As a note to timethief, who is Canadian, correct? Have you ever considered the United States as a friend to Canada? Have you ever considered that because of the locality between the two countries that you might be a bit grateful that we, the United States, can defend our borders, and yours?-
"As a note to timethief, who is Canadian, correct? Have you ever considered the United States as a friend to Canada? Have you ever considered that because of the locality between the two countries that you might be a bit grateful that we, the United States, can defend our borders, and yours?"
Now this is going to be interesting...
When exactly was the last time that the US defended the borders of Canada? -
OH I Know, i know!, It was that time when terrorists crashed planes into Canadian buildings and we backed them up in Afghanistan. What?... othr way around?... my bad
-
-
I Love my country and everything it stands for. Go America!-
Haven't I seen you here before? Hmmmmmm..........?
-
-
The US has become the once popular girl in school whose dad is now laid off and her family lost their house. She can no longer wear her designer jeans and get by on looks. She has now been shunned.-
After she's done crying about being dumped for the prom, she can stand up and make her way on her own self value or she can continue to cry and moan. I believe the U.S. will do a little of both.
-
Personnally, anyone who said they were going to "get behind THEIR president" (about George W.Bush) should freely do the same now
-
-
Bad reputations usually follow bad decisions.
-
Bad decisions usually cause bad reputations.
-
-
This term has been knowingly associated with Nationalism. This is the method of Scientologists or CIA for depriving people from dictionary word to express what is legitimate.
Because the Globalization Propaganda wants to have a one world governement so that Internationalization at left - which liberals don't even see it's just the opened door to Right-Wing Globalization - is the mantra. At left being patriotic is nearly impossible.
That's how Propaganda works at the culture or langage level without people even realizing it. Since there's no term left, it is as if the concept cannot even exist any more.
It's not only in America, it's the same thing in Europe. -
To the original poster who has the 'love it or leave it' mentality (which is SO 15 minutes ago--so BUSH ADMIN):
"To announce that there must be no criticism of the president, or that we are to stand by the president right or wrong, is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable to the American public." [ Theodore Roosevelt ]
I think Teddy had the right idea here. And I think I just might be MORE patriotic than YOU! -
way to whip out a Teddy quote
-
As the original poster in this thread. I leave you my final comment. I guess there are a few of us who still believe what we were taught as a child (more than 15 minutes ago) and would like to see the fabric of our country strengthened by people who want to be here. If you don't like this countries politics, policies, econonomy, other Americans, then why stay? Why be tortured by simple minded hillbillies like myself who are willing to say that they are proud to be an American, without the "buts" and "ifs". I can end my statement comfortably with a period, not a comma, not a question mark, but a period.
I took a beating on this and another thread. I did not realize that there were so many America haters out there. I'm trying to convince you otherwise, the very country you despise has given you the rights to disagree with it, try that bullshit in a communist or socialist counrty, I think the reults would be different.
I leave this thread now, this will be my final comment. Maybe in the near future I will start a thread about politics, government, and God, then all of the America haters will really come out to play.
Have a great day !!!!! -
You are a coward, iyaayasmoderator.
-
You are an arrogant SOB, really. You assume I don't want to be here? What in my post brought you to this specious conclusion?
Answer? Nothing. I love my country as much as anyone does--perhaps even more because I was born and spent the first few years of my life in Egypt (born to an American mother and Egyptian father). I appreciate the U.S. more than many people as I have spent time in countries such as Egypt and know how many more opportunities there are in the U.S., particularly for women. Not a day goes by that I don't feel gratitude to my mother for forcing my father to leave Egypt back in the 1960's.
How dare you assume that anyone who questions our country's politics/administration is an 'America Hater.' I love this country enough to want to see progressive changes made for the better--and thankfully, we seem to have finally elected a president who makes me proud of my country once again. For eight years, I hung my head in shame at the policies of the Bush administration.
Thank God we got this election right. -
iyaayasmoderator, this country's politics, economy, population... change over time. The one thing that doesn't change (except sometimes amended) is the Constitution. THAT is what the United States stands for. If you don't like the constitution, then you shouldn't be here. If you support a President who engages in unconstitutional activities and you don't think those activities should be investigated -- you shouldn't be here. We are a country of laws and NO ONE is above the law.
-
-
The following quotes by the primary author of the Constitution and Bill of Rights--James Madison-- out to be rather enlightening to all the shameless Bushites and their "Love it or leave it" mindset. After each quote I have included a little of my own commentary
"All men having power ought to be distrusted to a certain degree." Especially when everyone is 'behind them'
"If Tyranny and Oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy." Like the Axis of Evil?
"Each generation should be made to bear the burden of its own wars, instead of carrying them on, at the expense of other generations." TAX CUTS... keep beating those war drums... TAX CUTS!
"I should not regret a fair and full trial of the entire abolition of capital punishment." Pull the lever Jethro
"No nation could preserve its freedom in the midst of continual warfare." Rather Orwellian, no? Long War?
"Religious bondage shackles and debilitates the mind and unfits it for every noble enterprise, every expanded prospect." Faith Based Initiatives!
"The class of citizens who provide at once their own food and their own raiment, may be viewed as the most truly independent and happy." Iraq... 100 orders? Monsanto?
"The executive has no right, in any case, to decide the question, whether there is or is not cause for declaring war." OOPS
"The personal right to acquire property, which is a natural right, gives to property, when acquired, a right to protection, as a social right." Except when you need to make tax payers build a new stadium for the TEXAS RANGERS on it... and sell it a couple years later and pocket the profits from underpaying for everyone's house! -
Thread Killah! Thread, Thread KILLAH!
-
-
Well, well, well.....................I only was led to believe I was done here. I, secretly, shhh, was hoping to smoke out some Bush haters. I'm happy you are happy with our new president. I see also, I'm a coward also. Nice.
Let me explain how intolerant and arrogant I really am. Here, where I live, in an older up-scale neighborhood, outside of Houston, Texas, my neighbors feel similar to you. I am the only person around here who has two flags in my yard, not on my house for holidays, but on a pole, in my front yard. I raise the American and Teaxas flag every morning at dawn, and retire them at dusk, 365 days of the year. My flags create alot of "hate" mail, broken windows, vandalism, and spite towards my children. My "neighbors" cannot understand why I fly my flags. I'm told it will bring down the price of our houses because people don't want to see these "things" in someones front yard. Why the hell not? What are they afraid of? I don't ask anyone to post a flag. I also don't ask to get harrassed because I choose to display my colors.
Which leads me down the same road of questions. If our flag and our country offends people, why do they stay? My love it or leave it attitude is formed by the people of intolerant nature. Before there were proffessional politicians, way back in history, a handful of people had the idea that they were going to be better off in another place, with better ideas, and not be oppressed by the views of others. Today, we call this place America. Granted, we are a country in turmoil, politically and economically. It's nice to live in such a place where people from all over the world can complain about how it is run. But we all still live here.
Most people are right, I am simple. I hold no PhD or anything else that could justify me having an opinion on my own well being and on my own behalf. Shame on me for standing up for something I believe in because "you" don't.
Everyone shows there true colors on occassion. Most are afraid to do such a thing. Mine are Red, White, and Blue.-
Oh, you're French?
By the way, I called you a coward because you have not answered a single question that has been put to you. If your convictions are so strong answer the questions and prove you are right. -
Your neighbors probably aren't complaining about the flags because they are flags. They are probably complaining because they are large obstructions in the yard. (If you are "raising them" I'm guessing they have their own flag poles, and are pretty gosh darn big).
They would probably complain no matter what flag you flew, or if you had erected a totem pole or some other such large thing in your front yard.
Honestly, the person with the biggest flag isn't the the most patriotic. -
I'm saddened that some Americans find James Madison offensive
-
I still don't see where you get off telling people they hate America when they have questioned America's policies in the past. There's nothing unpatriotic about that (please see the Roosevelt quote I left for you).
You are wrapped up in a very narrow vision of what it means to be American and what it means to be patriotic. I suggest you broaden your view a little bit and at least learn to appreciate that dissent is a VERY patriotic quality.
I think you have a lot of nerve proclaiming what it means to be patriotic.
-
-
One pole, 25' tall, two flags, each 4x6. Pole sits about 6 feet from the far corner of my house, opposite the drive way. Not at the curb, not in the easement, and when my 100 year oak trees are in the full swing of green, they are almost not visible from the street. I got permission from the very home owners assciation, which gives me grief, to plant this pole. There was never hidden intentions or anything else. I just wanted a place, besides hanging them from the side of my house, to display my colors. They block nothing.
As I sit here and think about it. Why am I the only one in my neighborhood who thinks we should be free to diplay the flag of our country and state? This hasn't been outlawed by the democrats has it?-
would you care to answer any of the important questions? or is your flagpole the most important thing in this discussion?
[Yes it was intended] -
If the association gave you permission to fly it, then that's that. However (I could be wrong here, I'm operating on rumors) with home associations, there might be some resentment that you could plant a 25' flag pole, while the neighbor's request for a (whatever) was rejected.
Why am I the only one in my neighborhood who thinks we should be free to diplay the flag of our country and state?
Obviously you're not the only one, as you were allowed to put the pole up by the neighborhood general consensus.
Has it occurred to you that you might be on the receiving end of the hostilities for other things/behaviors, and not the flag in your yard? Do you have problems with your neighbors? Fights with them? Have you had run ins about other home improvements or upkeep? Do you throw parties at night without inviting the neighbors? Do you have a parking situation? (Parking is the big neighborhood fight where I live, and causes a lot of strife).
-
-
If they gave permission, it's their problem. if however the neighbors dislike the clanging of pullies etc, that would be a separate issue.
@siuil, I think that flagolatry (as a subset of statolatry) was a primary theme of the tread -
For SiuilARuin , no, I'm not French. For your questions, most of which were answered by you or others, which ones have I avoided?
For Anok , none of the above. we have a sixty foot drive we park two vehicles in. We keep to ourselves, keep our yard mowed, and so on.
For some of you. Why is it so easy to lower yourselves to the point of name calling. As I sit here and read, I see finger pointing, name calling, and general discontent for someone who is proud to be an American, whether there are good times, or bad. If you do not feel a sense of loyalty to America, all I can say is I'm sorry, I do.
I disagree with the fact that I defend my beliefs to those who don't understand them and think that people, like me, who speak proudly of my country, defending her to the end.-
You are the one who has been throwing out the name calling: Unpatriotic, America-Haters, etc.
Pot, meet Kettle--Kettle, meet Pot. Both black! -
iyaayasmoderator, is that your house or your parents' house?
-
Question:
If the country, the president and the administration is doing something illegal, immoral, unethical, or just plain wrong, what do you do?
-
-
For mtyler77. What is a person who speaks out with their hatred of our country? What is a person who speaks in such direspect for past presidents? What is a person who could give a damn about his/her country? What is a person who wants change, but can offer no solution? Why do people band together for their "cause"? Why is it there are so many definitions of a patriot or patiotism? Why does everyone "choose" not to get along? Why can't people accept who they are and who they are not? Why do some people join the military while others despise it's very existance? Why?
-
to question 2: a patriot
-
What is a person who speaks out with their hatred of our country?
If the country, president, administration etc... has done something to deserve hatred, criticisms, and dissent than that person is a patriot. -
"I tremble for my country when I reflect that God is just; that his justice cannot sleep forever."-- Thomas Jefferson
-
When did I say anything about hating this country. Please post the specific quote because I did not, nor do I hate my country.
I disliked Bush and didn't agree with almost all of his policies. That has nothing to do with loving my country though.
Who are you to judge me? No one. You are no one to judge me.
-
-
@iyaayasmoderator
-Please explain to me what is good about patriotism
-"the freedom's known only to Americans?" What would those be?
-the flags and pledges of allegiance and putting your hand on your heart when you sing the national anthem...what does all of that mean? Shouldn't people be proud of the things that are good and condemn the things that are bad? No matter which country it is?
-When exactly was the last time that the US defended the borders of Canada?
If you're going to make assertions like that I want you to back them up.-
not answering these then?
-
-
For satijournal. My house, have lived here for 10 years. Something else your trying to say?
-
No, just wondering how you managed to get a house in an upscale neighborhood if you didn't go to college.
-
-
"If our flag and our country offends people, why do they stay?"
Did it ever occur to you that perhaps it is your attitude that offends people or perceived nationalism, not the flag itself? I don't know, because I don't know you, or your neighbourhood, but that might be a possibility?
A love or devotion to one's country can manifest itself in many ways, but when others start to define how that love is shared and proven we slip into dangerous territory.
As a mother of a veteran in the marines I found the little flags of support for our troops a shameful self pleasing self deluding sham because where it really counted they didn't support increasing funding for vital equipment, life saving equipment (families had to buy their soldier's body armor), and veterans needs.
When someone loves their country they don't buy made in china flags and magnets saying they support their troops, they support their troops with actions that directly help their troops.
Just my humble opinion though-
Good points, Jafa. When the Mr was overseas I tended to get upset or angry towards flag waving "patriots" who couldn't take five minutes to help create care packages for the boys and girls over there.
It became a real point of contention for me, as I was heading a local chapter of troop support and needed help collecting, packing, and sending care packages as well as organizing all of the e mails, letters, banners and post cards of well wishes and safe returns to be sent to each ship.
I didn't want them to wave a flag, I wanted them to send the guys some f*#^*@ing socks. -
Yep! Not only could they not be bothered to send care packages, they couldn't care less about funding for proper equipment. We were told to just shop and get on with our lives as normal. Americans were not asked to make any sacrifices to support our country during a time of war or for our troops in the least.
-
For jafabrit. As an Air Force veteran, I have been in that place, have had those needs, and the had those fears. I am a contributor to organizations who do send help and supplies because our soldiers get short changed. I don't raise my flags to tribute our soldiers. When I was active duty I was very happy to come to U.S. soil and see that our flag was still flown. It always seems that people are ashamed of being American because of desicions made by their government. I, for one, am not ashamed to be an American or to be called and American.
-
"I am a contributor to organizations who do send help and supplies because our soldiers get short changed."
It should NOT have been up to veterans and volunteers to supply our troops, it should have been up to OUR government. We were NOT asked to make any sacrifices during a time of war, or asked to help our troop, that was SHAMEFUL.
It always seems that people are ashamed of being American because of desicions made by their government.
"Seems" is the key word here. You are confusing dissent and political dissatisfaction with shame of country.
Our government is accountable to US, the public that votes them into office, they work for US, and when they make decisions that hurt the best interests of America and our troops, then it behooves us to hold them accountable.
People who love their country don't stand by and let their leaders abuse the constitution, abuse its laws and abuse the service of their military.
-
-
For SiuilARuin.
What I think is good about patriotism, for whichever country you might choose, is the pure fact that I try to dedicate myself in positive ways as an outlook to my country. Do I want revolution? NO. Are there things wrong with this country? Yes. I wan't apologize for being proud of where I live.
A simple example of a freedom that America has that others do not: Women are not classified as "property" to be bought and sold at will. Children do not start working at age 4 or 5 in factories for pennies a day. How many do you want? or need? Here, you have freedom of speech. Here, people are allowed to censor your freedom of speech because in some way it offended them.
Flags, pledges of allegiance, the national anthem, and other traditions are common threads, in all states, all cities, with all people. Some choose not to take part, some choose that things like these should not be taught to our children, and some believe that because we have traditions, that we show our traditions.
The borders of Canada are defended every day by the United States. Ever consider the fact that if the USA was over-run by an invading country that they would just stop at the borders? In the United States, our borders are protected against enemy invasion. Would there still be a Canada or a United States if we didn't? Your right, we'll put our tanks, missles, and guns away. We'll send our soldiers home. Sleep well tonite.-
@siuil:
Darn you Limeys and your child factory labor *snicker* -
hahahaha! you are so ignorant!
I'm from the UK, I wasn't working in a factory or up a chimney at the age of 4 and I haven't been sold into slavery or marriage yet...Of course, I criticised the monarchy earlier in the thread so I will soon be beheaded by Beefeaters from the Tower of London. -
"beheaded by beefeaters" lmao
-
Canada has their own armed forces. SiuilARuin is British and is most certainly not considered property in her country. Most countries, with the exception of extremist Muslim nations, women enjoy the same rights as men. Even communist China and North Korea still affords women equal rights.
I am Korean American. My family is in South Korea and enjoys the protection of the American Marine Corps everyday from the threat of North Korea. I appreciate what the American military does.
However, I will not apologize for exercising my right to political dissent.
I HATED George W. Bush and everything he stood for. I HATED being told by conservatives that I was "unpatriotic, America hating, terrorist sympathizer" because I disagreed with the administration's policies. I HATED being told that in order to be a good American, I needed to shut up and unequivocally support political policies that were destroying our international reputation. I do not agree that the US must be a policeman for the entire world. Our way of life is our way of life. Has it every occurred to you that maybe other nations don't appreciate having it crammed down their throats? They don't want our version of freedom.
Korea is a nation that is a friend to the US. They are deeply grateful for American intervention and has embraced Western capitalism with a vengeance to become one of the most successful, educated, and prosperous nations in Asia. However! Just because it worked in Korea, doesn't mean it will work in Iraq where there are major religious and cultural differences. Koreans didn't particularly identify with any single religion to the point of religious extremism. Koreans were never a theocracy. They were a constitutional monarchy before the multiple invasions of Japan and the Korean War. It is not the same situation.
I am a patriot because I pay attention to our government, pay attention to the issues, genuinely care about my community, my city and the politicians that represent me.
I think that you are mistaking political disagreement with a personal attack. No one on this thread (except maybe Siuil :D) thinks that you don't have the right to be proud of being American. We just resent that you don't afford the rest of the us, the same right unless we define ourselves in a very narrow political manner. -
"Flags, pledges of allegiance, the national anthem, and other traditions are common threads, in all states, all cities, with all people."
It can also become a tool for manipulation and oppression, hitler used flags, anthems etc very effectively. -
well not before you've been tortured on the rack perhaps Siuil.
-
the Beefeaters have been integrated into MI6?
-
Quite...they might not kill me...they might just cut off my hands and then put me in a work-house...
-
yea, making flags.
-
-
-Please explain to me what is good about patriotism: It keeps one from saying things like "we oughta suceed y'all"
-"the freedom's known only to Americans?" What would those be?: The freedom to get business subsidies from the gov't to subvert competition/the Rule of Law
-the flags and pledges of allegiance and putting your hand on your heart when you sing the national anthem...what does all of that mean? Shouldn't people be proud of the things that are good and condemn the things that are bad? No matter which country it is?: But that does nothing to support the "blood tax"
-When exactly was the last time that the US defended the borders of Canada?: War of 1812... grantted it was OUR side of the border, but...
If you're going to make assertions like that I want you to back them up.: Why, when one can just back away?-
win
-
-
To the OP--I am still waiting for you to post where I said anything about hating the U.S.
Or you can just admit you were making that stuff up.-
How to speak Statist, lesson 1:
Criticizing "leaders" = Hating your country -
I must have been absent that day!
-
-
I feel so sorry for you guys...in America, stupid goes all the way to 11...
-
We deserve your pity!
-
are you dissing our schools? Hater, Hater!
-
-
I JUST READ SOME OF THE COMMENTS ABOUT WHAT WE ARE ALL ABOUT..SOME MADE ME PROUD, SOME MADE ME MAD, SOME LEFT ME CONFUSED..I AM A RETIRED MILITARY MAN OF 21 YEARS...I STAYED IN THE MILITARY TO HELP KEEP AMERICA FREE, GOOD, AND JUST A NICE PLACE TO LIVE...WE NEED THE VALUES OF THE EARLY 1900'S..WHAT HAPPENED TO THE GOOD OLD DAYS WHEN WE WERE JUST PROUD TO BE AMERICANS, LIVING FREE AS A NATION OF LAWS. FOLLOW THE LAWS SET UP BY THOSE WE ELECTED. JUST ENJOY...-
Please,no ALLCAPS. It's considered shouting on the Internet. Title case is generally preferred.
-
You mean the values that made African Americans a segregated underclass? The values that made working class Americans live in poverty while the rich got exponentially richer? You mean when most American's didn't finish school beyond the 8th grade unless you came from a privileged family who didn't need you to work? You mean before women were granted the right to vote?
-
Do soldiers go to school? or is it that military families all sell their brains to pay for the uniform?
-
Considering women didn't have the right to vote until 1920, and blacks were second class citizens during that early 1900s time period, I think I'll pass on that particular time-travel. -
In many ways, blacks are still treated as second class citizens, from the first-hand accounts i've heard.
"oh darn... we all out of job applications... we'll have to get some more"
next day
"oh that position has been filled" -
(eyeroll) You know what I meant there, bub.
-
-
"No one on this thread (except maybe Siuil :D) thinks that you don't have the right to be proud of being American."
I guess I don't understand the concept of being proud to happen to have been born in a certain country...
I understand being proud of upholding a certain set of principles...but just being proud of being American when many Americans clearly have no idea what the rest of the world is like...?
I don't understand being proud of rights that you didn't fight for and don't fight to maintain or of an infrastructure you didn't help to build...What right do people have to feel personal pride that they can reap the rewards from the actions of others?-
If people aren't proud, they may question...
-
Dictators throughout history have used excessive pride to wage war and inflict enormous suffering. Love for your country is good. Nationalism isn't such a good thing.
-
However the other way to look at is that people who are proud of their country will question when they see leaders abusing it's core principles.
-
Core principals, I like...Enjoying your country, I like...Enjoying your culture, I like..."Go America!", I don't like...
Same goes for Britain, though...I like folk music and satire and castles and fields...BNP and UKIP, not so much... -
Thank you Sati, for not using the "H" word
-
jafabrit already went there...
-
lol, oops
Hitler also spread "patriotism" through youth organizations 0_o -
What, you don't like the Team America theme song, from the makers of South Park?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTHxkIfnxTA
-
-
Wow! What a discussion!
Patriotism and pride in the USA is alive and well.
That's all I'm going to say (lest I be stoned by someone in this thread).-
Hey, no stoning here. Freedom of Speech
-
Thanks for not throwing rocks at me!
-
I might stone you...after all...I'm not American and everywhere outside of the US is mediaeval...
-
I read "The Lottery" so I'm not as naive as you might think. Anyway, I can always hide behind Agit8r if you still feel inclined to hurl stones at me but beware my wrath (I'm a pretty wicked vampire on Facebook!).
(runs off into distance, laughing insanely...)
-
-
I agree absolutely with Siuil. The only flag I'm willing to pledge allegiance to is Life. All this wanton destruction in the name of principles and ideologies, religious or political, disheartens me. I think our main task in this world is to survive and help others survive. That's the real meaning of solidarity and community.
-
Am I the only one thinking that the fact that iyaayasmoderator has disappeared from the thread (but is still reading it) since people refuted his arguments is very, very cowardly?
-
I don't think he's walked away. These are working hours in the U.S. He's got kids and probably a job. Things will probably pick up again about 5 pm Central time.
-
Time to read, no time to comment...alrighty, we'll see...
-
I see his avatar moving up and down the "recent viewer" board... we're watching you
-
It's the usual response for someone who is unwilling to admit he or she was wrong.
-
*pokes rattlesnake with stick*
-
-
I'm curious as to why you would ask that question? Do you think it's dead? -
Patriotism is racism. My country is better than yours. And so am I. Not my cup of tea but well, does not affect my life much.-
That's nationalism. Some countries are not homogenously populated
-
Racism???
What an abuse of the word. Racism. So I love America more than any other country. So I feel America is the land of freedom and best represents that supposed basic human right. And according to your belief and definition that's racism.
Please.
Do you really know what racism means?
Let me guess, you think Obama is a racist too.
-
-
I actually did walk away, to shower and get ready to go to a doctor's appointment in a short while. Which at that time I will let everyone know I had to leave.
Everyone has their own opinions' here. So be it. I wasn't trying to change them, nor did I expect that many would like mine to change. I believe in certain things strongly and also believe that I do not need to hide them from those who might disagree with me. Hate me. I don't care. Like me, same answer. If you prefer, in the future, don't come to my discussions if you can only offer petty bullshit. I don't like to talk with people who are like minded only, impossible to learn anything new that way. When I do walk away from this discussion, and it will happen, we all will, I will be able to take away the knowledge that people around the world, as well in the United States have their own mindset of what it means to pay ones repect to our history and to our future.-
Could you provide me with an example of rights that you actually really only have in America? Or will you admit that that claim is false and stop making it?
-
So if someone disagrees with you, that means they hate you?
-
I'm new to this place. Can you kindly tell me who you were writing too?
-
Now, now, we don't want to bother anyone with "petty bulls[--]t"
-
I don't hate you. I don't even know you.
You certainly do have a flair for jumping to conclusions, don't you? -
@iyaayasmoderator
Do you not see your own contradictions? Can you really be blind to your own faults and too stubborn to admit you were mean spirited towards everyone who did not share your POV?
These are your words:
If you prefer, in the future, don't come to my discussions if you can only offer petty bullshit. I don't like to talk with people who are like minded only, impossible to learn anything new that way.
(1) You dismissed all of the feedback from every member who dissented with your POV in this thread.
(2) You chose to label the well thought out and passionately held POV shared by those who dissent with your POV as bullsh*t and falsely accused them of hatred when all they expressed was their stand and their reasons for taking such a stand.
(3) You invited those who dissent with your POV to leave the country over and over again in this thread, while saying that you fought to give them the right to beg to differ and the freedom to say that they do.
(4) You repeatedly avoided answering questions that were put to you. Instead you defaulted to lecturing and making heated, rude and false accusations.
(5) And now you allege that you do NOT wish to speak only to the likeminded, but at the same time, you invite all those who dissent with your POV not to post to this thread. -
the diverse views of those who dissagree with him must all somehow be "likeminded"
-
iyaasmoderator,
complicated question, and the level of replies here show why.
the problem is that patriotism is another one of those terms that mean different things to different people.
The Narrow minded will always connect it with non-related terms like racism, nationalism, and other negative terms.
The problem with the term "Love it or leave it" is that it isn't true. The real term is actually "Love it or change it".. there are plenty of examples of how this country has fundamentally changed from the values of its founders. (Suffrage, slavery etc).
The real problem is that there are plenty of people that love it, but would like to change certain parts of what they don't like about it. And what they would like to change is not the same as everyone else. So they all fall on the "Love my idea or leave it" which makes it rather narrow to begin with.
Just because someone wants change, doesn't make them less of a patriot. Remember that the civil war was fought largely over ideas that one side wanted to change and the other didn't.
In the end, it comes down to this being a democracy, so you'll have to accept that this means changes sometimes won't be to your liking. You can fight against them, and partake in the system to get the changes you want. And you have every right to oppose the changes that others propose, That's what people should love about this country. -
Well said csi
-
Erik, that was really nicely put.
-
Erik,
I was wondering when you might stumble on in here. I agree with your analysis and am glad you weighed in. -MM
-
-
You're gonna think about this when you take your flag down, aren't you?
-
iyaayasmoderator says: "I believe in certain things strongly and also believe that I do not need to hide them from those who might disagree with me."
So you support OUR right to feel strongly and NOT hide it from those that may disagree with us, right?
"Hate me".
Don't flatter yourself into thinking you have that much power to elicit such a strong emotion.
" I don't like to talk with people who are like minded only, impossible to learn anything new that way."
so why are you so bothered by being challenged on a discussion YOU brought up? -
My apologies to everyone here or not here at this point. I need to step away and go to a doctor's appointment. I will be back later in the day. Hopefully this causes no hard feelings.
-
To address a point farther up the thread (somewhere...)
I have always been torn about being "proud" that we have "rights". Why? Becasue our rights come across as privileges, when they are not. They are rights, inherent. Our government doesn't need to bestow them upon us, they're already ours.
Don't get me wrong, I'm always very glad that our country decided to recognize those rights as such, and not infringe upon them (much), but that's a bit like saying you're proud because your country told you that you have the right to go to the bathroom when you need to, or sweat, or think, or feel, or any other naturally occurring human behavior.
Gee, thanks.
I mean, is that really something to be proud of? It's certainly something to appreciate, but pride is a bit excessive, a bit like groveling and sniveling thanks for being allowed to live....
"I'm proud that our country recognizes that we are all humans with inherent rights...". "I'm proud that my parents realized that I was a child and not a slave to be abused..."
I mean, really...-
civil rights are merely imperfect reflections of Natural Rights
-
@Anok
I hear you and I take the same POV.
What Is Patriotism?
by Emma Goldman
1908
San Francisco, California
Men and Women:
... Indeed, conceit, arrogance and egotism are the essentials of patriotism. Let me illustrate. Patriotism assumes that our globe is divided into little spots, each one surrounded by an iron gate. Those who have had the fortune of being born on some particular spot consider themselves nobler, better, grander, more intelligent than those living beings inhabiting any other spot. It is, therefore, the duty of everyone living on that chosen spot to fight, kill and die in the attempt to impose his superiority upon all the others. The inhabitants of the other spots reason in like manner, of course, with the result that from early infancy the mind of the child is provided with blood-curdling stories about the Germans, the French, the Italians, Russians, etc. When the child has reached manhood he is thoroughly saturated with the belief that he is chosen by the Lord himself to defend his country against the attack or invasion of any foreigner. It is for that purpose that we are clamoring for a greater army and navy, more battleships and ammunition...
Read the full speech here -> edchange.org/multicultural/speeches/emma_goldman_patriotism.html -
Maybe it's me, but it's just one of those things that pop into my mind from time to time.
You know? like "Oh, you ow have the right to...(whatever)"
Oh RLY? Gee thanks.... -
Ah yes, good Old Emma Goldman
Thanks, TT!
-
-
Basic human rights and nationalize civil rights are two completely different things. Imperfect or not. One has nothing to do with the other in most societies. America is probably a the best example where the two intertwine, but not the norm in most societies in existence today.
-
"America is probably a the best example where the two intertwine"
Could you qualify that?
-
-
[Sure....this will raise some eyebrows I'm sure. Be advised actual facts and international tribal history is in play. Please know your stuff before name calling.]
Many believe [especially Americans] that food is a basic human right. In American not only is it thought to be a basic human right, but a civil responsibility and right as well. Is it? No. It is neither.
Yeah, I'm saying that a starving child dying from malnutrition, doesn't have the civil liberty to freely eat. No more than they are thought to have the right to food. Whether they beg, borrow, grow it or steal it. Food is not a basic human right. It is definitely not a basic civil liberty. In America- believe it or not- we are compassionate, caring citizens who believe differently. But that doesn't change International Policy and Law.-
oh, wow...
Since theoretically if all the earths ariable land were divied up evenly (though virtually impossible in practice) there would be sufficient sustenance for all, (although this could not be the case indefinitely, so other measures which would limit population would heve to eventually occur such as education) therefore it falls within the realm of Natural Right -
I wouldn't say that makes America the best example...What about the rest of the 'West'? How about the UK? We have a universal national health service, America doesn't...
-
Since you didn't provide a source here is one:
www.worldhunger.org/articles/global/foodashumrgt/special.htm
-
-
Yeah wow.
Everyday- I use what little retirement money my family has left feeding, transporting, housing and clothing starving children living on America's mean streets. [Even though my husband and I are both out of work.] But see as an American, I do think it is a child's inherited right to be fed and allowed to grow up strong, healthy, viable human beings. That doesn't mean it's a right though. On many different levels, the international community's leaders are justified in their approach and thinking. Imagine the chaos if food was deemed a civil liberty or basic human right.
Food is a privilege.-
can you explain how this relates to the subject of patriotism?
-
and how being American has anything to do with it?
-
Food is a necessity, like air.
-
@1brn
Read my blog post "The Jacobin" on my "Rights of Mankind" blog
-
-
Sure, I feed the children because it is my duty as a proud American. It is my duty as American to nuture those in need, and give out an empathic hand to anyone who needs it. I owe my country that. My country has allowed me to thrive as an individual. I freely speak my mind, wipe my butt and go about my day as I chose. I love America. I love Americans. I'm glad to be American. I don't know of another way to give back to my country, that has been so good to me. I am as American as it gets and I stand strong in American compassion and commitment. We are not all war mongers, hate mongers or idiots. As a true patriot of this great nation, I freely pass out food to American children. Letting them know that America hasn't forgotten them and believes in them. This is a great nation, and I want her children to know how truly remarkable this country can be.
In the above threads someone said,"civil rights are merely imperfect reflections of Natural Rights". You can clearly read that I view differently from them. How that reflects patriotism, I'll let you decide. As a strong willed American, free to speak her mind........ I stated an opposing position. That in itself is a form of patriotism to me.-
"My country has allowed me to thrive as an individual.. I freely speak my mind, wipe my butt and go about my day as I chose.."
A lot of countries allow their citizens to thrive as individuals and are allowed to do this.
I am just trying to get at what this has to do with patriotism, other than you as a citizen love your country and want to give back, which is what many people do one way or another in their own countries. Is this what you meant, because if it is it is perfectly understandable. I guess I just got confused about the human rights part of it. -
Food like water is a necessity, and since life is a right, so too, is food.
Right along with anything else that facilitates the ability to live (breathing, shelter, self defense).
you'll never see an animal group (herd, flock etc) deny other animals in the group access to food. Never. They are communal, and while there is a pecking order, they never ever deny the food to one of their own. (Yes, the right to food in animals is fairly species specific) - although animals do tend to leave some food for the competing animals in the area (or for the scavengers). Absolutely nothing is wasted or thrown away, or hoarded.
Food is a right, not a privilege. -
and as I show in the blog-post I mentioned, that (right) is a rather traditional american view of food
-
Wouldn't it be more patriotic to support human rights and social government policies that stop hunger in the usa rather than depend on handouts willy nilly from compassionate citizens.
-
Jumping in late but yeah animials deny food to each other, they eat each other's young and will kill one another
-
-
"I wouldn't say that makes America the best example...What about the rest of the 'West'? How about the UK? We have a universal national health service, America doesn't..."
& SiuilARuin wrote:
"and how being American has anything to do with it?"
First:
How can I possibly speak for countries I do not currently live in. I'm not big on giving out uneducated opinions. You? Is that your philosophy? Okay with ignorance? Me? Nah, I tend to shy away from giving uneducated opinions.
Second:
Is Patriotism "dead" in the United States?
You do realize that is the title to this forum post? If you have a hard time reading English, my apologies. Allow me to help clarify something then for you- the post is talking about AMERICA. The United States is short for THE UNITED STATES of AMERICA. Understand?-
wow! ok...
Don't you dare call me ignorant when you are the one claiming that America is the best at something without being able to qualify your assertion and without knowing anything about any other countries. -
Gosh you don't need to be rude about it! you are participating in a social network that is global, and as such people from around the world want to explore and understand the various cultural viewpoints about issues.
SiuilARuin wrote:
"and how being American has anything to do with it?"
why is that NOT a relevant question to the issue of food and helping those in need and being proud to do so? -
I see everyone still hammering the same points, just now we have added food, air, and water.
Why don't we try this. A game if you will. I asked if patriotism is dead in the United States. This was the original question, still unapproached by anyone speaking in this thread.
This trhead has become no more than a school yard tiff, telling each other that my country is better than your, no, my country is better than yours. That wasn't the point.
We all have seen the quotes posted, the titles, the codes, the history, and so forth. But other than proving you can read, copy, and type, what is it that you are trying to say? There are people from quite a selection of countries, backgrounds, and education. It's a shame that many want to ask what's so good about the United States, and that all they have to offer.
How do think that some form of an answer could be arrived at? Need to some research? Do it and come back and share. If you live in the United States or are a United States citizen living outside the U.S., please share what you think. I only actually a few comments on it, reading all the way back, and everybody jumped on them like sharks because they might have had something nice to say about the United States. -
well considering the people who were for Bush (and won't admit to it now) talk about sucession and wave the Bonnie Blue flag around the blogosphere, I'd say yes, yes it is
-
If you're referring to me with the "my country's better than yours" comment, I wasn't making that point at all. I was merely challenging the assertions that America is the only country in the world with freedom and human rights etc. The fact that you couldn't back up any of your claims isn't me saying that America sucks...it's really saying that you ought to have a rethink about what you think America is...because you clearly have it wrong.
You want an answer as to whether patriotism is dead in the US, it's not off-topic for us to establish what patriotism is first... -
but he meant HIS definition. So I answered THAT question in the affirmative
-
-
Show me where I called you ignorant???
By all means, feel free to quote me???
I am a direct matter of fact person. I don't know what you are like. How am I going to know what your standards are if I don't ask?
But by all means, feel free to find that quote where I wrote that you were ignorant, SiuilARuin. Please.
_____________________________________________________________
Rude? Rude about what? I see, you like sugar on top of your sugar cookies. Is that it? Heck far, I was offering a clear explanation between AMERICA and the UNITED STATES. I have found that people who don't read English well find it easier to read differences in all caps. I wasn't being rude. I have had countless friends tell me to write something in all caps when they can't understand the written word. I thought if I didn't help, like I've been told to do by so other non-English speaking persons- that that would be rude.-
My question still stands:
SiuilARuin wrote:
"and how being American has anything to do with it?"
why is that NOT a relevant question to the issue of food and helping those in need and being proud to do so?
I see you are presuming something about my eating habits, don't eat sugar cookies thanks. -
If you had bothered to read the thread before posting you would see that not only do I speak English, but I am English. You came across as rude, not only to me, but obviously jafabrit thought you were being rude too.
"I'm not big on giving out uneducated opinions. You? Is that your philosophy? Okay with ignorance? Me? Nah, I tend to shy away from giving uneducated opinions."
I'm pretty sure most people would read that as calling me ignorant. -
Yes, it was clear, and plus you must like sugar cookies also
and I would like to include that besides NOT eating sugar cookies I am also an English speaking person
who is an American citizen. -
I found the comment to be both rude and amusing.
Rude, because people here from all over give opinions about countries they don't live in all the time (even in this thread) and so, by default you have called everyone with an opinion about someplace else ignorant.
Amusing because I can't understand why a person wouldn't bother educating him or herself about another country (and forming some opinion about it) simply because they don't live there.
This sort of geological educational isolation is one of the stereotypes that gives Americans a bad name. Not knowing, and not caring to know about any country that isn't the US. -
Y'all speak English in the UK, who knew?
-
apparently not well enough for anyone to think I'm fluent...
-
-
I once worked with a girl who mentioned musical groups who sang in english even though they couldn't speak it... "like the Spice Girls" !
-
hahaha! Oh dear...maybe we don't speak English...
-
she wasn't the swiftest tack in the box o_0
-
-
SiuilARuin, my apologies. I was not calling you ignorant. I don't like words put into my writings, any more than you apparently don't like being called ignorant. I apologize for the misunderstanding. I never meant too nor did I call you ignorant. However, I apologize to you. I am the type of person who has the balls to call a spade a spade. If I thought you were ignorant, I would of said, "SiuilAruin, you're ignorant."
I do realize that real people, with real feelings live behind these computer screens. I meant no injustice or harm.
I desire that everyone has peace and happiness.
SiuilARuin and to anyone else who is bothering with this; I'm not looking to share Karmas with you. I apologize for any miscommunication. However, I am frank. I have a very dry sense of humor. At times the facts of reality make me sound cynical. But this is me. If you don't like it- my best suggestion is to ignore me. I hate that this place doesn't have smilies. I have found that they are helpful.
Peace be with you. Again, I don't want bad karma between us. My apologies. -
I'm going to go ahead and give you my answer. Yes, I think it is dead. I think people are ashamed to be called Americans. There may still be some of us who don't mind this place, it's people, it's culture, language, traditions, and so forth. The fundementals of being Patriotic have been so diluted over time that the reason the are so many definitions is because everone wants to change it to work for them or their cause.
It's a sad and disappointing day. The sun is out, yet the clouds of doom will not let it shine through. (that's probably something that belongs in a global warming thread)-
I personally am proud again to be an American. We have a leader who is articulate and thoughtful, and who's policies will be pragmatic rather than coming from some gut instinct. I wasn't proud of what our country did under the Bush administration. Or much of what Clinton did. Or Reagan. Or Nixon. Or Johnson. Or Kennedy... Man, we haven't had many good presidents.
-
well cross your fingers
-
Yeah, he may get corrupted after a few years. We may be forced to worship Rev. Wright.
-
-
iyaayasmoderator :So you asked if patriotism is dead and my answer is no, just some imposed versions of it.
" telling each other that my country is better than your, no, my country is better than yours. That wasn't the point."
WEll I am American so obviously this doesn't apply to moi
"It's a shame that many want to ask what's so good about the United States, and that all they have to offer."
I don't think it ever hurts to define the finer qualities and challenge/confront the negatives of one's country.
"If you live in the United States or are a United States citizen living outside the U.S., please share what you think."
I did.
"I think people are ashamed to be called Americans. "
Prove it! because I haven't seen any data that supports this.
"The fundementals of being Patriotic have been so diluted over time that the reason the are so many definitions is because everone wants to change it to work for them or their cause."
No they haven't, it is defined as love of and/or devotion to one's country. How they show it is the issue here. You just have one way of defining how that love is shown.-
Just for my own personal clarification, when you say "No they haven't, it is defined as love of and/or devotion to one's country. How they show it is the issue here. You just have one way of defining how that love is shown." Then who is to define the proper and the improper way of how that love is shown? Can it remain open for interpretation?
-
wrong spot
-
-
Tony must be asleep, and god knows what daniel and oscar are doing, lol -
"Comerado, I give you my hand!
I give you my love more precious than money,
I give you myself before preaching and law:
Will you give me yourself?
Will you come travel with me?
Shall we stick by each other as long as we live?"
Walt Whitman
That's the America I pledge allegiance to.-
It would be a better America if we could all walk hand in hand and were all able to get along. It's too bad that most would shun their neighber, rather than sacrificing something for them. I value your comment and that ideal.
-
is iyaayas a Work Camp proponent?
-
-
Anok wrote:
"Amusing because I can't understand why a person wouldn't bother educating him or herself about another country (and forming some opinion about it) simply because they don't live there.
This sort of geological educational isolation is one of the stereotypes that gives Americans a bad name. Not knowing, and not
caring to know about any country that isn't the US."
Patriotism. True heartfelt patriotism can not be taught by an Atlas, text book, or any other literary form. Patriotism can't be taught. At least that is my learned opinion. My understanding of what you might think of patriotism is actually nationalism.
To truly know and understand patriotism for another country or cause- you first have to live it. Breathe it. Feel it. Consume it. Be it.
Example:
My great grandfather Best is from a small spot north of Cork, Ireland. He was a admiring Catholic, and most sincere Irish Patriot. So was his four sons. My grandfather Junie lives in a green house, drives a green truck, proudly wears the family colors everywhere, and his kitchen, living room and hall bathroom is horribly decorated in Fighting Irish football gear. My uncles and grandfather were all staunch supporters and revered Irish patriots. I just found out recently that both my great grandfather, and a great uncle served time in a federal prison. They got busted for sending guns back home to family members who were fighting in the bloody IRA! That's crazy. That's Patriotism. The IRA isn't taboo in my family. It wasn't and isn't hushed and was frequent, normal Sunday dinner conversation. I've never been to Ireland. I don't know what Irish Patriotism is. I know what I think it is. But does that make it correct. Are all true Irish patriots catholic and support the IRA? NO!!! But based off your theory- I'd be right. I'd be correct to arrogantly assume that all Irish patriots feel this way. Patriotism comes in many forms. Since I've never lived there, how could I possibly recognize all of them? I can't.
Another example:
My grandmother is Native American. I have never stepped foot on my grandmother's reservation. I refuse too. I don't attend Indian Pow-Wows and know very little about my heritage. It's been lost and what is available is in the history books. But that's my land belongs to my people. I hate that land for what it represents, but love it just the same. Those are my people. I'm proud of them. I'm proud to be a Blackfoot.
I can tell you how I feel. I can show you. I can write it to paper for future generations to read. But you still have no clue what it feels like to be a patriot of my people. A patriot who would die for her people.
I was also born in Spain. I have dual citizenship. I don't have a single drop of Spanish blood running through my veins. The country of Spain has no spiritual meaning for me. I'm indifferent towards the country. I don't even cheer them on during the Olympics. I feel nothing and yet I lived in the country for several years.
Patriotism is not taught or learned through books. Its endured, understood, witness upon, felt, cherished, valued, measured, timed, and so much more.-
(clapping) Bravo.
-
iyaayasmoderator states: "Then who is to define the proper and the improper way of how that love is shown? Can it remain open for interpretation?"
well you seem happy with 1brncowco interpretation of how to show one's patriotism so it seems to me you feel free to accept interpretations that fit you idea of how to be patriotic.
We all show our love differently to things/places/people we love, but the love doesn't change, just how we express it. Not one person has the right to dictate how another person expresses that love. -
And you missed the point completely.
I was reacting to this statement:
How can I possibly speak for countries I do not currently live in. I'm not big on giving out uneducated opinions. You? Is that your philosophy? Okay with ignorance?
I don't care about your patriotism (or lack thereof) for another country. I found it amusing that you assumed or implied that having an opinion about a country you don't live in was ignorant and uneducated.
Thanks for upholding the willfully ignorant stereotype, though. *rolls eyes*
-
-
For jafabrit.
Well said also. (clapping for you too) -
As I said on another thread: It seems to me that one reason many Americans avoid expressing patriotism is that it's been given such a bad name by conservatives who've cynically used it to malign anybody they disagree with as unpatriotic. Thus, when a Republican's in the White House, criticizing him is treason; when a Democrat's in the White House, the right wing so called "patriots" express nothing but contempt for the democratic process that put him there, make jokes about assassination, and threaten to secede. If you're really concerned about a lack of patriotism, those are the people you should be yelling at. -
It seems to me that it all depends on what one actually means by patriotism. If it refers to a high level of civic and political involvement, of willing discharging one's duties such as to pay taxes and serve on juries and to defend the precious right of each and every American to make up their own minds and live their lives as they see fit, I do not believe that patriotism is dead nor in any danger. If you are referring to the fact that the flag waving, war-baiting days of Bushco are ended, I can only think "good riddance". -
Let me rephrase what I said before. Being patriotic means you think your country is worth fighting for. For what your country thinks is right. But why do you think your country is right? Or should I say more right than any other country?
-
You can still be a patriot of your country and oppose them too.
I hate the war in Iraq. I'm angry that my country is over there. But if I was a 18 year old kid, and my country needed me- I'd go. Doesn't mean I'd fire a weapon. But I'd go. I love my country. Patriotism is so vast- you can love your country and give back to it in so many different ways. No, my country isn't right about a lot of things. America has a troubled past. But I'd still lay down my life to protect her. -
I personally think that we should not talk about countries anymore. We're living on a small rock lost in this universe and its billions of stars and hundreds of billions of planets.
Seems to me that talking about a country and patriotism is a bit narrow minded.
And well, America will have a troubled future...-
Thanks for your opinion. I agree that the universe is a vast space and there is so much out there that we don't know about.
However, it is the little things that make a difference. I think it is narrow minded to be center only on the extremes.
-
-
Let's consider exactly what Patriotism is.
I personally believe that Patriotism is the love of one's country. It includes attachment to the country's land and the people, admiration for its customs and traditions, pride in its history, and devotion to to its welfare.
I do believe that it is dead to a lot of Americans due to the fact that Americans care more about what they look like, or what they are going to eat for their next meal. But I do believe that when it's time to come together and defend our country, we will stand up proudly and fight. I would not have no problem shooting someone if my life depended on it.
I support my husband, A Soldier of the US ARMY and I support the war we are fighting to bring peace.
As for other countries, as said before, they don't care until we, America have to go and defend their sorry asses!
I may be wrong about this, but from what I can see and hear is that, if the other countries would stop all their crap. We would not have wars and American Military would be able to stay home.
(this is me, using my freedom of speech)-
oh, wow... none of us even explored what patriotism might mean to different people... 0_o
-
(this is me, using my freedom of speech) = "I'm talking out of my arse, but if you say that I'm going to accuse you of oppressing me."
-
@Siuil are u takin to me? -
Holly, why would you assume I was talking to you?
-
-
This is the most AWESOME place in the world to live!!! I think the majority of the population feels that way. I think since the invention of 24hr.news station,tabloids,and internet,etc...... We are told what we like from 3 different places....... HOLLYWOOD,BELTWAY,AND NEW YORK the problem is the TALKING HEADS,CROOKED POLITICIANS,and the GOOD LORD WHO CARES WHERE BRIT SPEARS THONG IS,PEOPLE!!!! are fixin' to get their EARDRUMS BUSTED,by the time I'm done......
BET UR BOOTY ON THAT!!!!-
YEAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
-
-
WOO HOO so how r u?
-
AWESOME AND AMERICAN TO THE CORE BABY!!!!!!!!!!!!
-
-
yea,me to,but I'm takin' a breather from twitter today! I'm starting to see @ something in my dreams now
-
I don't do twitter. That is too euro.
-
-
guess what I figured out!? This is a rough estimate,but between the 2/ 700 billion dollar bailouts+they added in an extra 85 billion,+ this last 450 billion dollar bill that past,(they didn't call it a bailout)
they called it "FIXING INFRASTRUCTURE" The entire AMERICAN POPULATION YES ALL 304,059,724 PEOPLE.Even the ones that don't work or pay taxes,and children (ALL) u ready for this???!!!!
could receive a check in upwards of 6,300$$$$ NOW DON'T YA THINK THAT WOULD "STIMULATE" THE ECONOMY!!!!-
good math
-
That is what I'm gonna lobby for!!! Not a little 1,000$ dollar check that is already gone before u get it!!!
I mean HELLS BELLLS that was OUR money in the 1st place!!!! -
yeah! what the hell do I pay taxes for?!?
-
-
I know the gov't probably won't cut a check in that amount for each and every single person,BUT even if a family of 4 receives a 6000$ check they could actually do something with it,ya feel me?
-
I could do something with 6k!
-
-
you pay taxes to line the pockets of crooked politicans,big business(don't u know it's at least a million to throw a good get2gether these days,Oh and don't forget in this past 450 billion dollar bill that just passed. There was an ear mark for I believe it was 450,000 to go to a lab to see if they could come up with a hormone to make a pig not STINK!!!!!
PORK,LITTERALLY-
I hate earmarks and pork barrel spending.
I thought Obama was going to get rid of that!?!?!? -
sorry cook, the "two" parties are all about power, and the campaign contributions that bring power... It's due to a missinterpretation of the first amendment. Some people think it says that you can buy democracy
-
I think that has been quick pro quo in the past. I think it will always be that. Money does buy anything you want and everyone has a price.
-
It takes a legal framework to prevent corruption. It will never be perfect. But the laws restricting lobbying must be enforced. The people need to demand it
-
There is good and bad in that. It the scruples of the ones holding office that are in play. Not the lobbyists. They are just do their job. So I disagree.
-
-
I absolutely do not think patriotism is dead in America. Look at how many turned out for Obama's inauguration. You think all those people went to Washington D.C. just to see a black man?
No they went because they love this country. Because they are patriots. Patriotism is alive and well in America.-
yes absolutely patriotism is alive,It doesn't matter what side of the Isle you are on,politicians are politicians. PERIOD END OF STORY!!!
-
-
SHOOT FIRE,HECK YEA!!! We could buy a car! Our car was repoed when we hit hard times,and even though we have money coming in out credit was shot to hell,because the stupid mort. co. wouldn't take our house note for a year!!!
They're gonna hear about that too!!!! -
You know what I need to go add that to my blog!! I bet that'll really get people behind me!!!
-
good idea!
-
-
Hmm. It depends what you mean by patriotism. There are many different ways to look at it.
Rational Patriotism. Big yes here. I am proud of the achievements of my country, and I hope to help drive America across new milestones into the future. I am especially proud of NASA.
I understand that America is not perfect. I do not think it is fair or mature to compare countries, nor is it conducive to diplomacy to prance around going, "I'm so much better than all of you! I'm the greatest!"
I recognize that we have a long way to go, and a lot of flaws to work out. Progress should be the key, not regress.
Blind Patriotism. No. Hell no. America is not some infallible entity, not some ideal "We kick everyone's ass" bully and world police officer. Blind patriotism is elitist, arrogant, and ignorant. Blind to our flaws, arrogant and elitist in regards to our virtues, and ignorant to other cultures.
Lewis Black did a good skit mocking blind patriotism: www.youtube.com/watch?v=4mCDZMWVWuc
"The amazing thing is that there are people who have never left this country, who talk about the fact that we're the greatest country on Earth. HOW f*cking dumb is THAT?! Because you don't know. If you haven't left here, you don't know. There are countries that may be giving sh*t away every day. Canada's one of those countries. You know what they give away? HEALTH INSURANCE!" - Lewis Black -
I think that patriotism is not a characteristic of smart people, it causes discrimination and hatred between people
If people were feeling and thinking as citizens of the world, if they felt that the whole world is their home we would have much less trouble-
What???
-
@michaelwillow--ya know your are right. I agree. But people are rude, cruel and don't give a crap.
-
Indeed
-
-
When you have a president who calls the constitution a "G[-----]ned peice of paper" and everyone gets "behind him"... then, yes!
-
I Think patriotism is being proud of where you are a citizen of . So I'm damn patriotic,(proud) of where I belong!!!! What is soooo great of being patriotic about this country is,No one is gonna MAKE you be patriotic (proud)!!! Hence you say something against your country,you will be,jailed,tortured,or even worse murdered or a family member murdered or hurt!!!!
you might be protested for speaking against your country,but baby sticks and stones to that! -
To All-
I just wanted to thank everyone who participated in this discussion. It was a real eye opener with the variety of responses from a variety of people from around the world in different walks of life. Gave me alot of research info for future reference.
Add Your Comment
Login to leave a message.
