Discussions
"Is Stress Pushing Spelling Snobs Over the Edge?"
Posted by ThriftShopRomantic • 2/03/09 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: grammar, spelling, spelling snobs, stress
That's the title of an article (not mine) I was just reading and which I thought might make an interesting discussion:
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/28900351/
It deals with what they feel causes people to care about spelling and to correct others for poor spelling.
I don't know that I necessarily agree with it's take on the value of correct spelling...
But I thought it would be interesting to hear the view of folks here.
Do you believe in spelling thing the best you can?
How do you feel about spelling or grammar mistakes you might catch?
Does it affect how you react?
If it would be easier, I can post the article directly in the thread.
User Comments
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Yup. All us mispellers drive the spelling snobs crazy and we love it! Better yet if we can butcher the English language with the finesse of E.E. Cummings. After all, we do need to get a life, don't we?
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I'm a professional editor, so it's impossible for me not to notice spelling and grammatical errors. I don't correct other people unless they ask me to, though, and I actually really appreciate it when people tell me about errors on my blog.
As for how reading errors affects me--if they're occasional, not at all.
howEver whn peeple rit sutff liek thIS It tels mee there slopy annd wy shud I caer aboot wht thay rite if thEY Dont ?-
I'd noticed article appeared to suggest that good spelling wasn't as much a question of "caring" but that it was, to a large part, beyond our control-- that people would either be good spellers or not.
Obviously when learning disabilities are involved, that makes sense, but then again I've known people with disabilities of that type that try all the harder to make sure they spell things correctly.
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I thought the article was interesting in its own positioning-- using words like "spelling nerds" or "spelling snobs", the article was already taking a stance in saying that having meticulous spelling is a negative quality.
Which is interesting, given this was published as part of a news feature by a journalist who, presumably, is paid for word usage. -
I'd like to think that I'm more of a spelling afficionado than a snob. I'd never correct someone's spelling unless they asked me to do so. I'm surrounded by wonderful people who can't spell worth a hill of beans. When they ask, I'm happy to correct things for them, but otherwise I have the occasional chuckle over a particularly nasty misspelling and let the rest glide right past me.
I do agree that someone who can't be bothered to capitalize, use punctuation, or even give a cursory proofread to their posts makes me wonder if they've considered the information as little as they've concerned themselves with what they've written, however. Typos and spelling errors are one thing. Complete disregard for writing comprehensible sentences tells readers something else entirely.-
I feel similarly. I get a good chuckle out of misspelled signs, and things that you'd hope would be proofread before printing-- but unless someone asks for assistance, I don't feel I need to be trying to improve anyone else's spelling.
I won't, however, spend a lot of time on blogs that are hard to read for the misspellings unless they're otherwise really well-written/have a lot of personality. -
This reminds me of my first published article in Shabbat Shalom in 1990. A Jewish editor invited me to write because I had self-taught myself Hebrew (part of my family is Jewish and I learned that I wouldn't be listened to unless I got busy and learned some Hebrew).
I wrote about the development of Christian baptism from the Jewish practice of mikveh. When he received it he was all excited over the article. Then the next day he called me up from across the continent to chew me out for an hour over this problem and that. Finally he said, "Let me see if I can salvage this article."
The next day, he called back. "That wasn't a bad edit," he said. "Excellent excellent article."
I learned more about writing from that editor than I did from years of English classes. -
Sometimes I think people of authority just like to have their personal stamp on writing, as well. I get this with clients sometimes. Where it's not that what's been said is necessarily wrong, it's either just not how they would word it, or they want to feel they've been a part of the piece.
Was your piece greatly changed by him when you finally saw it? Were these stylistic things or general grammatical issues?
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I disagree with the article's explanation of the "spelling snobs". I actually think it's the inevitable backlash to "text" languages and chatroom lingo more than anything else.
I know that while I can understand what is being said, and, I can even understand the purpose of it (expediency and lack of space or ability to type properly) I am completely annoyed when it's used and not needed.
It's just laziness. It's laziness that is being accepted as perfectly normal, to boot.
When my little brother was in grade school, his teachers never corrected spelling, grammar, or punctuation. We thought the teacher was just lazy. As it turns out, the teacher had a poor grasp on spelling, punctuation, and grammar as well. And she was teaching....elementary school.
This is a problem in my opinion. Language is what we use to communicate with each other. If we can't understand what people are saying, or have become so lazy we can't express ourselves properly - a breakdown of communication will occur. Don't we already have a big enough problem with lack of communication?-
I'm concerned a little about the laziness as an acceptable standard myself. Just the tone of the article seems to suggest that choosing good spelling as a general goal is either elitist or too uptight in some way.
And while anything can be taken too far, good communication can really make or break a discussion... or an interview... or any number of things.
So while I agree, if spelling is being used as a tool to publicly funnel aggression, that's an issue. But to just say it doesn't matter at all... that worries me. -
Actually, I can't stand Krispy Kreme donuts, but until we had one in town (that went under in about a year), I was willing to overlook the stupid gimmick. Once I tried one, I decided that the inability to spell was indicative of an inability to do other things, as well, such as make a plain donut that isn't sweet enough to rot your cousin's teeth much less your own.
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I was raised by a spelling snob so I spell pretty well. My mother used to keep my letters from camp and show me my mistakes when I'd get home. I'll admit now that I deliberately messed up just to tweak her a little. My personal form of rebellion.
I know I mess up now bu7t I dont stress over. If someone else is bothered by it then it's their worry over not mine. -
I think that boycotting a business using word play is rather extreme, I wonder if she boycotts Shakespeare.
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Mispellings like the example of Krispy Kremes don't bother me so much as it's obviously a brand name but sometimes I get a bit fed up with how language can be misused for business purposes.
I'm not a spelling snob because I know some people really struggle with it. I always say you get language dyslexics but I'm number dyslexic. However, I do expect people to do the best they can and not be lazy as correct spelling is important and it is a shame not to treasure our language.-
I'm with you on the idea of brand names not really being misspellings so much as a part of the brand itself.
And oh yes-- numbers throw me for a loop entirely. I have a very difficult time retaining them for more than a moment or two. I think it's because I have nothing to relate them to, in order to remember.
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I like it when people correctify me, well it may irritate me at first...
If I have made a spelling or grammatical error that is making a post or comment difficult to understand, then I would like to be corrected. -
My hubby is a stickler for spelling and grammar, it makes him nuts when he sees a business using misspelled words and unreadable sentences on brochures. He has always been that way.
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Yes, he is online a lot, most of his business dealings are online. And he uses some forums, he just won't communicate with those who consistently misspell. Because he can't stand it.
Then he goes and marries me... dyslexic... and constantly interchanging letters, and doesn't see it until it is pointed out.. LOL...Life!
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I have to admit that it drives me crazy to see spelling and grammar errors, at the very least it lowers my opinion of the worth of what the writer is trying to convey. Anybody ever read a funny little book by Lynne Truss called Eats, Shoots and Leaves (link here: www.eatsshootsandleaves.com/esl.html)? While I do think she's over the edge, there is a relevant point when the meaning gets confused.
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Snobbery is when some people think their version of spoken and written English is the correct version, or their snobbery excludes any ability to have a sense of humour with wordplay, or understanding that English is a living language. Besides many of the accepted words and spellings are made up, or deviations of an earlier form, or are borrowed words.
Context is everything and I think there are times when wordplay/malaprops is an essential part of expressing an idea.
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I only complain about bad spelling if it becomes a big distraction - like when many letters are wrong or missing within a word. Our brains automatically fill in and fix small mistakes, ones we don't even notice. I do assume most boo-boo's are typos which I am guilty of.
But some of the comments on BC are a combination of regular writing, text messaging shorthand (beyond OMG and falling on floors, laughing), and lots of bad spelling and it drives me nuts! AHHHH!-
Deep breaths, Lizzy!
I admit, I have a really hard time with text-speak. I don't text, (I know, it's my own lack o' hipness, but still...) I understand it in its context.
On forums and in blog posts, though, with full keyboards available, it is a lot easier to read words written out.
I often wonder whether students are turning in essays written in text-speak. -
I just read the article which seemed to me to be coming from the place of judging that choosing to have good spelling is either elitist or an indication of uptightness. I don't think it is.
When I witness my own errors I edit and correct them because I believe they may convey the impression that I haven't thought about whatever I'm saying before typing. The truth is that I do think first but I'm struggling with ordering my thoughts, trying to spell well, and also to use correct grammar.
I have major problems with my vision, and I also have 3 learning disabilities as well. I'm also having some trouble with sequential organization in my writing due to the head injury I'm recovering from but I do expect to make a full recovery.
If those habits of correcting my own mistakes while overlooking the mistakes others constitute grounds for labeling me as an elitist, then frankly Dear Scarlet, I don't give a damn. -
TT- What you picked up on from the article was the impression I got too.
And I'm wondering if the reason it came off that way was there weren't enough extreme examples of aversion to typos, like the woman who wouldn't patronize Krispy Kreme because of the spelling.
By the end of the article, though, it did really come off like aspiring for decent spelling was a negative. I understand if the full point was trying to make everyone else CONFORM to those standards being the problem.
But I was just wondering what other folks thought about it.
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Personally, I think that people *should* know how to spell and have the basic info on grammar. However, if they choose to not use it, that's their choice, and it really doesn't bother me.
I do notice it (but I notice it in my own writing more often. My typos are the bane of my existence); bad grammar/spelling won't immediately stop me from reading something, or get me upset.
What *will* stop me from reading something is a run-on sentence that is a page long--stuff like that
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I admit, when I worked in my college's writing lab, I got used to pointing out basic mistakes, and I got harsher with the criticisms ('they're in college, shouldn't they be able to write a coherent essay?'), but that was the point of what I was doing, really. Now, when I try to proofread my writing or my sister's (we are the only two I do it to), I always get the comment of 'red pen! red pen!'
Would I be as extreme as some who don't patronize a fast food joint because of the spelling? No. Some just take things to the extreme of fanaticism and over the edge into complete idiocy.
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I use Firefox with its built in spell checker. I can't bring myself to hit the submit button if there are words underlined.
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According to the article, I am a spelling snob. My gut emotional response is to just accept it.
I am irked by businesses named Kountry Kabinets or Kountry Kuts or Kountry anything, really. (Maybe that's because of the presumption that someone from the country doesn't know how to spell country?)
I also cannot stand to find spelling and punctuation errors in the newspaper. When I read the paper, I know that it must pass under the gaze of a paid editorial staff. Is it unreasonable to expect that they would catch and correct errors?
I am much more forgiving of errors in online media than print, for some reason. (Perhaps because I have a blog? That must be it.)
Find me at: www . kreative-kountry-momz . com-
Even though the intentional misspelling of words for brands is annoying - it is smart marketing. Branding as well as distinct listings in phone books etc... are key for business. (After a quality product, of course).
No one says "Dunking Doughnuts". It's "Dunkin' Donuts" Short, concise, and it rolls off the tongue. Marketing genius. -
I don't think there is anything wrong with expecting good spelling/grammar in reading material such as reports, newspapers, books. I don't view that as being a snob at all. What I find being a snob is when someone feels compelled to correct others or feels some level of superiority and it shows.
I will admit though when I first came to the United States I was taken aback and quite appalled at some of the spelling, such as Kountry Kabinets or Donuts etc. I got over it since I didn't feel I wanted to spend my life getting my knickers in a twist over American English and variations thereof. I still find it odd to write tyre as tire but unless I am writing a formal paper, I stick with British spelling. -
Hey - Dunkin' Donuts is spelled correctly and they've demonstrated appropriate apostrophe use. It's places like the local X-Kwisit Kustumz or however they spell it that give folks like Krispy Kreme a bad name with regard to spelling. It's a slippery slope, I tell you! Businesses are going to spelling hell in a handbasket! [pant pant] Erm, I mean, Dunkin' Donuts is spelled correctly.
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I usually notice spelling mistakes, but I rarely ever say anything about them. I don't want to make people feel bad. The only situation in which I have been a spelling snob is when I tried online dating. I would give a guy one spelling mistake in his online profile. Any more than that, and I would move on. It wasn't necessarily that I was being a snob; I was just looking for someone who was a lot like me for compatibility reasons.
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Finding a date using spelling as a criterion? Interesting. Wouldn't that limit a lady to a set of guys who are good at spelling and maybe grammar. I'm pretty sure there are men who can be better judged in ways that weigh more than in the communication arts. I surmise women could see a man beyond his spelling lapses even if this were a big put-off.
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In this case, it's a question of someone not willing to put any effort into making a good first impression. If you know that almost everyone you "meet" will see your self-written profile before they interact with you, wouldn't you at least run it through a spell-checker and maybe give it a read-through to see if its understandable? If not that, then what about your resume?
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The point is not every man can aspire to be good at the written word. Well, maybe everyone CAN aspire, but many know they won't be good at the written form of a certain language, but those who fall under this category may well be good for some women, even for those who find intellectual stimulation in correct spelling.
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ThinkGeek has LOLcat word magnets. www.thinkgeek.com/geektoys/cubegoodies/abea/ I'd be afraid to get them, for fear that my children will never learn to spell or use grammar. I still want them, though. Just a little.
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It's jarring. Spelling mistakes slow down the reader. They have to stop and look at the word, shake their head and wonder about the meaning of what they are reading. Grammar mistakes are even worse because the writer fails to get his message across. If someone corrects your spelling or grammar. . .listen to them and learn.
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@thriftshopromantic
I found an interesting article on variant spelling.
Excerpts:
Spell it like it is - The idea that we shuold except student’s spelling misstakes as merely ‘variant spellings’ speaks to the denigration of Trooth in education.
Yet according to the proponents of the ‘New Literacy’, when the former American vice president ‘corrected’ a school pupil’s spelling of ‘potato’ to ‘potatoe’ during a school spelling bee, he was simply practising the art of ‘variant spelling’. Many educators now consider the teaching of Correct Spelling as an elitist imposition that discriminates against the disadvantaged, or, in the case of Quayle, against those who have had a literacy-bypass.
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My principal objection to ‘variant spelling’ is that it reinforces the pernicious idea that children and young people today cannot be expected to meet the difficult challenge of learning how to use language correctly. For some time now, influential educators have asked whether it is desirable to teach children correct spelling. Some pedagogues argue that teaching spelling is a waste of time that serves no positive purpose. Others claim that an insistence in the classroom on spelling everything correctly frustrates those who suffer from learning disabilities and dyslexia.
www.spiked-online.com/index.php?/site/article/5574/-
G-AH! That example paragraph made my head implode.
You've touched on the thing that bothers me, too-- that having a specifically recognized way things are done is being viewed as "elitist."
In my opinion, good communication is too important to not have some standards for it. It took me twice as long to read that paragraph and understand its meaning as I would have if the spelling were correct.
An author who subscribes to an anything-goes spelling philosophy really ends up only hurting him/herself, in this case. -
My youngest brother came home from high school one day with a very similar article - passed out in his lit class. But it took it farther. It stated, essentially, that spelling and reading comprehension were things of the past, and that we didn't need them anymore. People with educations, vocabularies, and solid reading skills were elitists.
I never found out if it was satire or not, but some of the students took that article to heart. -
In the province I live in the school boards made a huge mistake by introducing a program based on "natural language". What it came down to is allowing kids to use any grammatical constructs and spellings they chose. As a result of that 5 year mistake we now have a batch of young people, who left elementary school with barely passing grades, and whose opportunities for employment are severely limited. They are now struggling highschool students and some are attending adult literacy programs run by volunteers in my community.
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The way some teenagers look at communication skills these days, I think, is different from five-ten years ago. I read somewhere that they think in bullet form and when they want to put pen to paper, they want it fast and have it delivered to the recipient immediately. I don't know if they're still interested in the so-called romance between pen and paper. I don't mind it really for so long as their ability to comprehend and tinker with ideas is fine.
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Pinoy - I think you are on to something.
Not only are teens and early 20 somethings accustomed to instant information gratification, I've often heard complaints from bloggers about having to read "long posts" and how much they hate it.
Long, of course, being subjective. My posts must read like novels to them
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I do get annoyed when reading established writers who commit many spelling errors. But in this day and age, correct spelling has become less important than it used to insofar as younger people are concerned. (I'm not sure about zeroing in on the younger set because there are equally many older people who don't mind their spelling mistakes nor are they aware of their mistakes.) Maybe it's because I usually focus on message rather than form.
I mean I wouldn't be interested in this thread if I were to allow myself to be annoyed by this typo error: "I don't know that I necessarily agree with IT'S take on the value of correct spelling..."
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I'm a professional writer, and a recovering English teacher, so I'm very aware of spelling: correct and otherwise.
I may be a "spelling snob," since I would rather live in a world where signs didn't say "EMPLOYEE'S ONLY" - and newspaper articles hadn't so obviously been proofread by a spell checker.
Getting emotionally worked up about this sort of thing is pointless. Whether it's because of a couple generations of inept education, the normalization of an "I'll do it my way" attitude, or something completely different, sloppy spelling has been happening.
I think it'll change, when enough people start having trouble figering ought wat th ritter is seighing.
The good news is that syntax hasn't been degrading - after a reader determines what words the writer intended to use, the sentences make sense.-
I can't think it's as rare as all that, when there are thousands of blogs dedicated to apostrophe abuse and English grammar, especially the wide-spread ESL sites where I often find consensus for my more obscure grammatical pursuits that aren't addressed (or aren't clearly explained) on more mainstream sites.
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My maiden blog here. Read every post. Blogging for 6 weeks, learning to spell for 65 years. A total and happy nonentity like me does not have to spell, but it worries me that sincere and otherwise virtuous people might be type-cast by their written word as uneducated if only dyslexic, or careless if only seeking to identify with their peers. If a new kind of freedom has led young people to want to change the rules of grammar, along with other rules, or if they feel excluded because they are poorly educated, there would be nothing new here. It's up to writers, the media, etc. to avoid expressing judgment and the snobs to hold their tongue a bit. I just love America's contribution to language but serious writers have to spel serious surely?
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I agree with you Norski, even if i couldn't always make out what you were saying. If it doesn't matter when signs are wrong, education itself doesn't matter. Grammar is only one thing that give a clue to a person, but when i see lousy pictures it seems a pity that they use up broadband (or paper). The 'grammar and spelling' of photography has the same absolutes as righting good - a craftsman tries to get them right, and should s/he not? Faiz, are you trying to faze us? I'm gone - the girls started a good discussion.
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No, Faiz was spamming us. I like your point about a photograph having "grammar" rules that help it make sense to (and please) viewers. I agree that writing should do the same, in as much as you are drawing a mental picture for your readers and ignoring commonalities distorts or destroys that picture.
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IMHO standardized spelling and grammar aid literacy and further communication. How can one comprehend the message if one must first struggle to decipher the spelling and the syntax? I have little patience for sloppy spelling and grammar in formal writing and speech. This is not elitist, it's practical.
I'm a chronically bad speller and a sloppy typist. I often use a dictionary and a spell-checker before posting. -
lulubelleb,legbamel,Anok, We have all hit the nail on the head (as the brits say) so hard it will never come out again. Or will it. In 1980-4 was 'teaching' creative photo techniques to art post-grads at the Slade, one of the world's most prestigious art colleges. It was cutting-edge fashion then to cut out as much technique or craftsmanship from art (print-making anyway) as possible. The difference now is that craft underachievers are empowered to scream loud enough to gain recognition as VOTERS. So who will tell them 'nay'. Perhaps it doesn't matter, if they want to work in communications they can learn to write well.
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