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Is teaching certain beliefs a form of child abuse?
Posted by Agit8r • 6/24/09 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: morbid fables, psychological abuse
If people teach their children to worship a god who hates their imperfections and may send them to BURN IN HELL if they don't beleive in the gory sordid tale of "his" son's death to save them from such a fate, is that OK?
User Comments
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Is it OK? I don't think so. Is it abuse? No. There are a lot of things that parents teach their kids that isn't OK. Some things are accepted as normal, other things are already frowned upon.
I'm sure there are things I teach Punky that others think is absurd, wrong, or morally corrupt. Luckily, they have no say in how I raise my child
(For the record, mainstream religious beliefs tend to hold off on the hell-fire and brimstone parts until the kids are older - even my strict Roman Catholic hell-fire and brimstone loving family members and teachers did not introduce eternal damnation and torment until like, the 7th grade )-
And they waited till you had a paper route/other source of income before they told you about Purgatory, I presume
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7th grade?! you seriously missed out on a colorful childhood. -
They never covered that. (honest!)
Once you hit Jr high the level of hell-fire and brimstone, religion down your throat until you die from it was laid on pretty thick And then in highschool, it swung from that to highly theological teachings and no more morality you're going ot burn in hell stuff.
It was weird. -
I finally found out the reason they wait until then to tell kids this part. They are simply trying to keep them from having sex is all. I mean it's a pretty strong deterrent.
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Thats not exactly the story most parents tell...they usually tell theri children that God loves them and that they should love him back. That he made all the things in the world and that Jesus died for our sins...etc. I think if a parent worded it as you did...then yes that would definitely be child abuse. -
Yes, but I disagree with the way you put it. -
No, although to be honest with you it may be best not to teach religion at a young age as the usual result is mediocre believers. It's usually better for them to find it for themselves. Although I disagree with your assessment (and the Church's) of the Gospel of our Lord, I will nevertheless note that Christian parents who have their children read the bible but will not show them PG rated movies are hillarious. But see, you're looking at as Rocky Horror Picture Show when you should be seeing it as the reality and the truth of this tough, mean, inspiring, and fulfilling-if-you-let-it world we live in, where you really do have the freedom to completely screw yourself up and kill yourself at whatever rate you like. Christ did not really die, and neither will you if you believe in him. But if you don't follow him, accept heaven, and then, through your love, grattitude and honor at the salvation you've been given seek the best heart you can possibly find and let God be your Teacher, you've taken the wrong path, just like how when you're driving on the freeway if you turn the wheel the wrong way you'll hit a cement wall and die.-
There are a lot of people who don't understand the bible, or use it to control their children instead of teach them. I think that's where Agit8r's summary came from
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Thanks.
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After I take up my cross... I don't have to burn it on a gnome's yard... right o_0
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Huh?
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after the "gnome" lynching......
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Yeah, that was really more Montana Militia then KKK. KKK's not usually that agressive. Not that they are warm and fuzzy wonderful people, but they are considerably more scardey and weak these days then most hate groups in America.
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hence the poetry...
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Lord Byron wrote poetry, and he was a soldier!
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No, I wouldn't place the teaching of beliefs in the category of child abuse. We all expose our children to our way of seeing and being in the world. I'm sure all of us transmit all kinds of misguided and negative messages through our opinions and conduct. -
I think it's hideous and probably quite damaging if it's very aggressively taught like with those Christian theatre groups that try to scare children....but I don't think we can really call it child abuse when you compare it with the really shocking abuse that happens.
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Playing Devil's advocate here... My dear 'ol dad did use the Bible to abuse children. mythoughtsalways.blogspot.com/2008/05/childrens-rights.html
I'm not going to write it all here it's too sordid. In that respect I believe it can be child abuse. -
Yes, I realise that religion certainly can be used in child abuse, but what I meant was that merely teaching children to believe in Christianity isn't necessarily abuse.
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@Shirley
I just read this thread from top to bottom and found your comments. I know where you are coming from and I'm sending you a huge cyber {{HUG}}
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I grew up in church but I don't believe in church. I don't think it's child abuse unless it's like this www.youtube.com/watch?v=L0KwkVKSudM which still happens in WV. Tempting God is what my mom calls it. I call it nutty and dumb.
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i liken what you said in your OP to anorexia -
Yes, if you believe a person can be psychologically and emotionally abused. I entirely agree that it is a different type of abuse, but yes, it can be a form of abuse.
I don't think a lot of christian parents intend it in this way, but who's to say that christians can't teach their kids that they will be separated from their primary social system, their family, and be eternally damned to hell if they Don't accept jc as their saviour. It is one of the most basic interpretations of the bible. The main purpose of evangelical fundamentalism is to keep people from suffering after death.... to choose to be in the presence of eternal love vs being separated from the presence of eternal love.
So yes, I believe that hell can be a form of child abuse, and yes I'm aware that there are hundreds of different OPINIONS about christianity, and that ultimately christians will downplay this aspect of their belief system in the modern world... but it is an intregal part... going to heaven vs going to hell.
Other kids who never are taught any religion can grow up in an entirely different culture of fear/psychological abuse, whether paranoia against the government or near fanatical views from the opposite side of the spectrum. All children have to unlearn fears and scare tactics taught by their parents/guardians... it's just that religion thrives on a special brand of fear that is not a very admirable characteristic.
As I unlearned the abusive fear tactics i was exposed to in so many ways, I grew enormously as a christian... i just happened to outgrow christianity entirely in the process.-
awesome analysis and testimonial
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What about other beliefs?
What about the beliefs that ones worth is measured in productive/reproductive capabilities?
What about teachings that violent actions can lead to the "reward" of getting to debauch a certain number of virgins in heaven.
What about... whatever the heck scientologists teach their kids?-
I would say that in general terms - any belief that teaches the children to harm themselves or others for a reward, or teachings that allow the harm of children under the guise of religious belief could be a form of abuse. It would have to be severe, though.
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I suppose everyone learns some evilness from parents. people ultimately have to choose their own ethical path
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By posing this question you are going under the assumption that your non-belief is correct and my belief in Jesus Christ is incorrect. And then by suggesting it is child abuse for me to teach my children my closely held beliefs, you are attempting to impose your own non-belief system on my child. That is the height of arrogance.
No, it is not child abuse to teach my children about love, hope, faith, and grace.
And it is not wrong to tell them that Jesus Christ laid down His life for us, because greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for another.
Are you a father? Or is there someone is your life you love dearly? Would you lay down your life for them if you were put in such a position? Or would you save yourself first?
Your wording in your post was deliberately chosen to make Christianity appear as repulsive as possible.-
I think the crux of his question is "saved from what?" Yes christianity is about love grace faith and hope. It is also about salvation from being eternally separated from love faith hope and grace, is it not?
If you teach your kids that they have nothing to worry about when they die, whether they subscribe to your beliefs or not, then I'm guessing you don't have anything to worry about with regard to this question... it is irrelevent. If you do teach your kids that they will be eternally separated from everything You believe in... that is your right, but that is also why the discussion was started... to unwrap the Ultimate Intent of one's approach to teaching children their own beliefs.
What is the Ultimate Consequence of your children Not believing what you believe? Maybe your brand of christianity is not an issue with regards to this. Many brands of christianity are. -
I posed a question. Turns out that even the Atheists don't believe that it is child abuse.
I suppose the question could be turned on it's head. Are Athiests harming their children by exposing them to non-faith?
Are parents in primitive parts of the world that have not heard the "Good News" damaging their children by passing on their beliefs such that they need missionaries to set them right?
Personally, any teachings of "love, hope, faith, and grace" are sufficient to set a path or right living. I see no need for distraction or embellishment that may assault the child's reason, once greater learning and experience suggest that the whole system is not worth practicing -
then I'm guessing you don't have anything to worry about with regard to this question...(Quote freeatlast)
And what 'would' I have to worry about in regards to this question? -
I do not know if YOU have anything to worry about, but I would say that some christians (particularly members of the last presidential administration) might have cause for concern after all didn't a certain man from Nazareth say:
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'" -
@Agit8r,
I have no idea what your point is. -
And freeatlast,
It is apparent to me that you have an issue with your childhood and your so called 'indoctrination' that you were freed from. I have no idea what your family was like or what your experiences were, but remember that not everyone's experiences are the same. Nor is the condition of someone's heart. Perhaps it would help you to take up your issues with the people responsible for 'indoctrinating' you rather than suggesting that others who teach the Gospel message to their children are somehow guilty of child abuse? -
my point was that the bulk of organized religions (including the bulk of christianity) practice lawlessness/or blindly support those who do.
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@Agit8r,
I don't know about 'organized' religion, or what 'organized' religion in Christianity you're referring to, nor what 'lawlessness' you're talking about. Neither do I care to get into that discussion with you.
All I know is Christ and Him crucified, and that salvation is through Him and Him alone. If you choose not to believe that, it is between you and God, and none of mine. But I expect you to respect my right to believe as I do and teach my children as I deem correct to do.
It seems rather onerous to me to teach your child that once he/she dies, that is all there is. No hope, nothing but blackness forever. You lay in the ground and the worms eat you.
I prefer hope and light and the promise of eternal life. -
Rebecca, I understood his question to address the often incorrect, scary and guilt inducing religious lessons that children are taught by parents and religious leaders (often at the parent's request).
Whether correct or incorrect, often times the religious teachings of the church are misunderstood and taught as: You are bad, and you may be sent to a place of fire an eternal damnation if you sin. You are born with sin, therefore you're screwed, so you'd better act really good, and never mess up, and maybe you'll be spared. Maybe.
Other misunderstood teachings are that sex is evil (it wasn't until high school senior year that our Chaplin finally made it clear that sex wasn't bad - just sex outside of what God wills is bad). And that women are flawed, and not equal to men. (The whole, wives submit to your husbands and idea of multiple wives, the stonings etc).
There is a lot to be misunderstood, and, stories in the bible can be very frightening if taught without understanding of what it means.
I mean, we did occasionally look up to make sure a bolt of lightening wasn't going to take us out on the spot for using God's name in vain. -
Once again, the question posed was to get at the question of whether teaching of Hell and all that goes with it, whether That was a form of child abuse... not whether faith hope love and grace was a form of child abuse. One Can teach hope love and grace, and even faith, without getting hell and the need to be saved from it involved....
and in that if you Don't teach your child about Hell as eternal separation from eternal love, faith, grace, than the question itself is irrelevent... and in that way you don't have anything to worry about your beliefs being trampled on.
And I understand that you are very concerned that everything I have to say on the subject is merely a result of My upbringing, and should not reflect any other christian and how they do or don't bring up their children, but too often christians use what they Think they know about my upbringing as a reason to totally ignore what I'm trying to say.
Yes, I believe that Hell can be/is used as a form of child abuse.
Yes, I Know that not all christians use hell as a form of child abuse. I DON'T know where your heart is on this. That is between you and you. That said, as I said above, all children have to unlearn all sorts of things their parents teach them. I'm not advocating that parents should not be allowed to teach their kids their belief system, but I am advocating that children who learn belief systems, whether in school, church or at home, have the right as an adult to call into question the degree to which those belief systems constitute emotional/psychological child abuse.
I have No problem in teaching a child that nobody has any physical evidence of any life after death other than the body itself decomposes and creates new life. Heaven and hell are right here right now. Plenty of kids who are taught that disagree and become some type of believer in something. We all are hard wired to rebel against our parents to one degree or another. For some, it means taking a new faith on, for others it means leaving the faith, and for others it has nothing to do with faith. Hope means different things to different people. I have a great deal of hope without believing in spiritual life after death.
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I am not into organized religion but I think faith has a part to play
I am one of those odd people who believe people need to think about something bigger than themselves
I dont think giving a child a value system is a bad thing if it respects and values everyones right to be on the planet and to be happy-
tru dat
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It is part of a parent's job to teach their children morals, ethics, and values...but those have nothing to do with religion. -
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@freeatlast,
Is it child abuse to warn your child that she will get burned if she touches a hot stove? Or not to pet stray animals because she could get bit? Not to get in the car with a stranger because he might not be a friend?
Is it child abuse to warn the child not to take something that doesn't belong to him, that people can go to jail for stealing?
If a person truly believes in hell, or eternal separation from God (without the atonement of Christ), what kind of love is it if they don't warn the ones they love about it? I know you don't believe in it, but that doesn't make you right. I'm not telling you you're wrong, I'm just saying that your not believing in it doesn't necessarily make you right.
If I knew a house was on fire, but didn't warn my loved ones and let them go in it, would that be love?
Having said that, I have not taught my young child about hell, separation from God, or satan. I don't think that it's age appropriate. I NEVER tell my daughter she is 'bad'.
I do teach her about Jesus. I teach her the gospel message. And I won't apologize to a bunch of strangers on a message board for it. I love my daughter tremendously and my heart for her is that she find salvation in Christ; that she be healthy and whole, safe, and joyful. And my daughter loves life and loves people and is very outgoing.
quote freeatlast
'and in that way you don't have anything to worry about your beliefs being trampled on.' end quote
More arrogance that you're telling me what I can or cannot teach my child to avoid having my beliefs 'trampled on'.
quote freeatlast
'And I understand that you are very concerned that everything I have to say on the subject is merely a result of My upbringing,' end quote
No, I'm not 'very concerned', just pretty astute, I think.
Anything can be used as child abuse if done in the wrong way. I wouldn't tell my child not to go out at night because the 'bogey man' might get her. I wouldn't scare her that way, though I certainly wouldn't let her go outside at night by herself.
Of course you don't know my heart. You don't even know me. LOL That was my point. You can't blanket judge people just because of your own personal experiences with others. And I don't know your upbringing. I don't know if your family was too legalistic or abusive in some way. I don't know their beliefs. I don't know whether you just rebelled. Of course I don't. I don't know you. I just know you referred to being 'indoctrinated' and your posts are evidence that you have issues that stemmed from your upbringing.
If you have found hope that is good enough for you, so be it. I prefer the hope I have in Jesus.
Now, can we just be friends? I like you because you 'thumbs'ed up' a joke i made about stealing my husband's cookie. LOLOL-
Again though, the distinction here isn't about teaching kids about the benefits and consequences of their actions and beliefs.
It's more like using said beliefs as a way to control, frighten, and make children feel guilty for being alive.
I will tell Punky not to touch a hot stove because it will hurt. What I won't do is tell Punky that if you touch the stove your skin will boil, burn, and your hand will be injured beyond repair using colorful descriptions that will give the kid nightmares.
Or a better example, because in a way this is more accurate:
Telling a child that the consequence of breaking a rule is punishment A, which happens to be...a 3 minute time out.
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Telling a child that the consequence for breaking that rule will be indefinite punishment so bad that they will wish they were never born.
Which seems more reasonable?
Many peopel describe hell to their children quite literally in terms of Dante's inferno - a terrifiying place of the worst pain and suffering imaginable, for all eternity. -
peace pipe accepted. we're going to have to agree to be two ships passing in the night on this one.
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"Is teaching certain beliefs a form of child abuse?"
No.
"If people teach their children to worship a god who hates their imperfections and may send them to BURN IN HELL if they don't beleive in the gory sordid tale of "his" son's death to save them from such a fate, is that OK?"
Not OK.
I do not understand why some people are taking this as a personal attack against their faith..
The OP doesn't read talk aboutlove/peace/values/faith as abuse..
The specific parts about burning to Hell for not believing in GOD and extreme punishments are surely scarring young children and constitute child abuse. -
This is where I disagree with the Dawkins bulldogs. I was raised in an extremely religious household and in extremely religious communities. While I'm vehemently opposed to any kind of religion (and the militant atheists who aren't really making any friends), I disagree that raising a child in a religious environment amounts to child abuse.
There are countless fairy tales that are told to children to protect them. In my home town, for example, children are taught not to go near the river at night because there is a ghost lady living in the water who would pull them in and drown them. You simply can't sit and reason with a child about the dangers of going to the river at night. Religion falls in the same boat for me. Look at the dangers of swine flu and then compare this with the Abrahamic religions' s adversity towards pork. It's far more alarming that adults fall for The Secret - this indicates that there are very few people who are fit to raise children anyway.-
Do you mean to say that there isn't a ghost lady? It ... it's okay to go near the water? -
Probably no ghost lady, but just in case don't go near the water at night.
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i think that's a horrible thing to teach your children.
is it abusive to teach your children that a mythical, fat, sixty-year old man wearing a velvet red suit will somehow magically slide down the chimmney and leave gifts (or coal) one night per year, and that the same said man rides in a sleigh hauled by magical flying reindeer?
you have just led your child into BELIEVING with all of their innocent little heart that this man is real and has been delivering gifts like this for hundreds of years. By the time your child reaches age eight, they may or may not have discovered that this man they believe in is mythical.
At any rate, it will be up to your child to decide on whether or not to continue to believe.
i don't think it's abuse-- no more than teaching your children the concepts of right and wrong are abuse--because what's right and wrong to some may or may not be right or wrong to others.
teaching your children from the ideological standpoint of an organized religion is not abuse, unless the teachings of this religion inflict emotional or physical abuse on the children, in which case the teachings would become abusive and unhealthy.
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I kind of feel that exposing your children to your beliefs is just the natural flow of human culture. Many of our mannerisms or values have been passed down through centuries and vary from one part of the world to another. How tragic it would be to lose that piece of ourselves, the past that has led us to here and now...
This exchange of ideas from old generation to new is important. Even if you had the idea to only remove religion from this "indoctrination" of our children, it would have affected every facet of the world's civilizations: written language, fine arts, architecture, etc.
There are always going to be extreme cases like you mentioned, that's just the way it is. Hopefully, with access to a proper education, children become adults who can think for themselves and make their own decisions. We can't police everything, that'd be ridiculous.-
i second the motion. *thats code for "i agree*
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By "thinking for themselves" and "making their own decisions" do you mean...and endorse...doing sufficient independent thought and decision making that they repudiate organized religion and refuse to pass it down to their own children?
Or is that bit exempt? -
Apparently calling your child Adolf Hitler Campbell and refusing chemotherapy for your child are exempt.
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SweetViolet:
What I meant by that piece was that they can decide on which values to uphold and which to leave behind. A child raised to hate a certain race can grow up and decide to be open-minded instead of blatantly racist, but they may decide to keep other values they were taught, for instance ones relating to work ethic or sex or justice, or any other number of topics. I mean that they can pick and choose what is right for them.
I am trying to say that it is unfair to blame parents completely for a child's actions at a certain age. We have free will and, at a certain point, our own notions of right and wrong supersede our parents'.
Choosing not to raise your children under a certain faith is one of those options that I support, sure. However, many values we take for granted (for example, honesty) are rooted in religion all over the world no matter how much one might hate to admit it. You may teach your children to be honest, but don't deny that you praise honesty because you were brought up Christian or Buddhist or Muslim or whatever your religion may be. I mean that removing religion from your home doesn't make it any less important to history. I'm sorry I keep stressing that but I am a bit of a history nerd. I'm Agnostic (former bitter Atheist, hehe) and was raised Catholic. When I have children, I will not baptize my children or force them to go to mass, but I will do little things like put up a Christmas tree or hide Easter eggs because I feel it is part of my heritage and these are things that connect you to people around you and make up part of your identity. There are cultural elements to religion that I think are very important.
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If it is my job as a parent to teach my children morals, ethics, and values how is it I teach those things without explaining why this is moral and that is not, why this is ethical and that is not...?
I derive my morals, my ethics, my values primarily based upon my Christian beliefs. Most everyone derives these things from their worldview.
So how do I teach those things to my children without sharing the foundation upon which I believe those things are secured to?
I've mentioned this in other BC threads before... I have been accused of indoctrinating my children. Accused by my own mother in fact.
So call it indoctrination, that's fine I don't mind.
What I am concerned with is that these are my children who I love, who I am responsible for, who I as a parent am going to mold in to at least a general shape.
I am going to mold them into that general shape precisely because I love them.
If it is not myself and my wife who are indoctrinating them, molding them then we are allowing them to be indoctrinated, molded by someone else.
If I believe that something is true, such as I believe Christianity is true, am I going to not attempt to have an influence on my childs worldview and instead leave that to another person?
As a parent who believes Christianity to be true and eternally important then it would be neglectful of me to not try and have an influence on the worldview of my children.
Should I perhaps leave it to government?
The guy next door?
Pick a random person from a crowd and ask them to please assist in the shaping of my childs worldview?
I can't speak for all parents obviously, but what I do and what most parents Christian and non-christian that I know do, is teach their children, 'this is what I believe and why. However there is also this other thought on this subject over here and they believe this and this is their reasoning'.
They know what I believe, they know why.
They see me in my daily life and I become either part of the evidence for or part of the evidence against what it is I teach them.
Children are not stupid, as they are exposed to various thoughts, ideas, worldviews they weigh what they see against what they have been taught and attempt to discern and discover from there what is true and what is crap.
I left the religion I was born and raised in because I found it to be crap. My mother rejected the religion she was born in because she believes it to be crap.
It appears that flamingpoodle and Anok left what they were raised in because they grew to believe it was crap.
I go to church with former atheists, they left that behind because they believed it to be crap.
It is not child abuse to raise your child in your belief system in the end the majority come to their own decision that decision may or may not be the decision the parent would like the child to make.-
I agree. Religion is, and always has been an excellent way of teaching morals, of right and wrong.
Christianity is an excellent teacher, has meant morals set down thousands of years ago are still here, and have been spread worldwide.
The stories Jesus told were brilliant.
Parents should be allowed to pass on such things.
Theres a chance that atheists are wrong, and that the resulting existential crisis that the child will probably go through is unneccessary suffering.
I am not a christian myself. -
Thank you for a very good post, rfburnhertz.
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It is ok, here's why I think so.
I'm confident spirits choose their parents (or lack of) and are born into experiences so they get experience particular emotions and gather wisdom o the journey down through time (or timelessness). Our greatest teachers come in the weirdest forms. I find the Burn in Hell attitude a little over the top, but when my son was told that by a religion teacher he came home and told us. We had him removed from the class and an investigation into the teachers place. I told him that God for me is a God of love, I don't know that other God and never will.-
That other god has cookies!
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An unlimited amount of cookies...?
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It's indoctrination and it's one of the worst kinds of abuse you can do to a child. A child will believe everything you tell it, think about santa clause and stuff like that. So when his idiot parents tell him there is a god out there of course he will believe it. A kid like that will never get the chance to grow his own character because he has been molded by his parents from day one.
Every parent who forces their own religion on their children should be shot and hung. I have no problem with it if you tell your kid 'this is was mommy and daddy believe, see for yourself if you want to believe it too'. And if you do that you should do it after the age of 12, when kids can actually think for themselves.-
Children do become indoctrinated. In fact, it is your job as a parent to indoctrinate your child not to take a dump on the carpet, to fulfil certain gender roles, to cultivate a personality so they can get along with themselves, to cultivate social skills so they get along with other people - in short, your job as a parent is to take an animal and make it think it's not an animal but a Human Being.
Religion fulfils many of these functions, if for the wrong reasons. Of course there's a lot of nonsense in religion too, but nobody can be too certain of having the correct kind of indoctrination. -
HAHAHAHAHA! Wow, you're an effing genius.
I'm agnostic, but your post offended me anyway with your fascist views of raising children and religion.
Indoctrination is one of the worst kinds of abuse? Really? Okay, so is education an outrageous act of child abuse, also? That is what schools are doing, after all. Even potty-training your child is indoctrination. How evil of us, forcing children to use bathroom facilities instead of pissing in the street. They should be able to make up their own minds!
Should we wait to teach children about the theory of evolution or long division or the Spanish Inquisition or any other random thing until they are 12 and "can think for themselves"? Actually, maybe we could send our kids away into the forest to be raised by wolves so that they can grow freely without interference from us and can then come to their own conclusions. They won't be able to speak or write a language, but at least they won't be "molded" by their parents' views.
The fact that you referred to a child as "it" in your post pretty much sums up your authority on the subject. Thanks. -
flamingpoodle:
That's funny, our posts are making like the same point -
Wolfmechanics: Wow, you are dense or stupid, or possibly both. How you can compare a god with everyday life is beyond me.
So because I want to pottytrain my kid means I should force him into a religion as well? Seriously?
Do you even know what the word indoctrination means? No I didn't think you did, so let me explain.
Indoctrination is forcing an education, basically. You teach a person something and that person is not to question why or how, he just needs to follow your rules.
Everything your kid learns, from going to the toilet to the theory of evolution, is based on free will. A kid can ask questions about evolution and have his doubts about it if he wants to. What exactly do your parents tell you if you doubt god, again? Oh yeah, you will burn in hell, that's right.
People are teaching their children religion as if it's fact, which is wrong. -
true... indoctrination is different than education.
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I'd agree that if they force it on a child that objects to the teachings, its wrong.
But it's not one of worst forms of abuse.
I'm pretty sure that beatings, molesting, neglect, and just about any other form of child abuse is worse than teaching your child a religion out of care. -
I thought we had already established that the teaching of religion/faith/worldviews could in fact be considered indoctrination.
Do you have children?
They only believe everything you tell the for a while, eventually they begin to consider and test the things you tell them.
So I'll ask again only this time specifically of you, if it is not myself or my wife who is to indoctrinate OUR children, then who?
You?
Teaching your children what YOU believe and WHY is not forcing your religion on them.
Come shoot me or hang me, that is exactly what you would have to do in order to take from me the responsibility of raising my children.
What the crap makes you think my children or any other child is not capable of reasoning prior to the age of 12? -
Indoctrination
1. to instruct in a doctrine, principle, ideology, etc., esp. to imbue with a specific partisan or biased belief or point of view.
2. to teach or inculcate.
3. to imbue with learning. -
Sorry Tiger, but they are right. Our entire childhood is a form of indoctrination of some sort - from social skills to educations.
You have confused yourself into believing that kids are being forcefully brainwashed into believing a religion because their parents have taught them about their own religion.
Believe it or not, kids can and do ask questions and question their parent's religious beliefs. In most families this is fully accepted as a part of learning, and it is embraced. You are confusing hard-core fundamentalist authoritarian type parenting with plain, old fashioned, parents who happen to be part of and teach a religion.
But I suppose that teaching your child abotu your religion is way worse then burning their faces with cigar butts, and then drowning them. I'm sure the kids would totally prefer to be burned and drowned or starved and beaten to a lesson about X religion, or being asked to attend a religious function.
*rolls eyes* -
Oh, my parents forced me into learning. I did NOT want to go to school when I was 6 and I objected. I also indoctrinated lots of clay into the cute girls's hair.
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I don't think teaching a child religion is a for of abuse. There's a lot it can provide someone with, that outweighs the risk of it being 'not real'.
But I do believe that hell was never mentioned in the old testament, I'm not sure about the new testament.
What I do think is abuse, is I know jehovas witnesses who drink alcohol, but if their child needed a blood transfusion, they wouldnt let it go ahead.
This says to me, 'mommy and daddy don't care'. That must be distressing. -
TigerXtrm:
Wow, I didn't think this could get any worse but you've surprised me. Okay, so first off (from two different sources):
in·doc·tri·nate
1.to instruct in a doctrine, principle, ideology, etc., esp. to imbue with a specific partisan or biased belief or point of view.
2.to teach or inculcate.
3.to imbue with learning.
in·doc·tri·nate
1: to instruct especially in fundamentals or rudiments : teach
2: to imbue with a usually partisan or sectarian opinion, point of view, or principle
I can understand your view that education is completely separate from indoctrination, but I do not agree with it. Indoctrination vs. education is a common point of argument in many debate clubs and philosophy classes, so I do not expect to come to a compromise with you on this topic. However, I don't think the definition of indoctrination implies that you can't ask questions or disobey. It seems that you made that part up? Or maybe there is a language barrier?
In school, children are not given a choice as to what they learn. Even if they have free will to decide what they "buy into", they still don't make choices on the curriculum. No one says "Okay little Timmy, would you like to study gravity today or the history of video games?". That is why I view it as indoctrination. They are forced to live up to our idea/opinion/view that education takes precedence over everything else. If a child doesn't want to go to school, we say "too bad". It sounds an awful lot like religion to me.
How is learning to use a toilet "free will"? A child is repeatedly coaxed to use a toilet and parents show disappointment when the child fails too many times and they give rewards and congratulations when they succeed with using the toilet. If a child were in fact feral (as in Mowgli from the Jungle Book), they would not have the same bladder/bowel control as the rest of us, even as an adult, because they would not have been indoctrinated to view incontinence as disgusting and shameful. They wouldn't have been indoctrinated with the etiquette of daily living and common decency.
On another note, I don't know anyone who'd tell a child they would "burn in hell" if they didn't follow a certain religion. That is most likely an extreme example. Also, I recall that as children we were always curious about "god" and if we asked a particularly perplexing question, we would be told something to the effect of "we can't be sure", which is where the idea of faith came in.
Anyway, your argument hardly made any sense, and then you act like a condescending prick towards me? Well thanks for the vocabulary lesson.-
I've noticed that TigerXtrm doesn't practice very good manners.
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@ Ms. Wolf: There is a difference between learning scientific backed up material in class and learning about some mystical book which may or may not be true as if it is fact.
Potty training is normal, everyone on the planet has done it.
Going to school is normal, reading books is normal, receiving an education is normal. All these things are perceived as normal every day things.
Becoming religious and believing in god is a big deciding factor in your life. One which everyone should be making on their own, without any outside influence especially your parents.
The choice to believe in something should be made after careful consideration of your own personal mindset. Not because your parents told you there is a god.
@ Rebecca: How very very observant of you. -
Thank you. Thank you very much.
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Becoming religious is absolutely as normal as not taking a dump in your garden. This is based on the scientifically verifiable fact that most of the world's population is religious.
Try this:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religions_by_country -
There is no scientific or biological need to be potty trained. it is a social concept - a concept that humans - and humans alone - have deemed as "normal".
Potty training is made up by us.
Organized school is made up - it's another man-made social concept. (and in the grand scheme of things, a relatively new one).
The average person teaching their child about their religion is teaching their child about their religion, not their religion as science.
You seem to be very confused about all of this.
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The element that I find totally missing from this discussion is how parents teach their children. If I shared how I was taught religion you would be appalled and sickened to your very core. Spare the rod and spoil the child still prevails in some religious circles folks. If I took you and showed you children who are still enduring that style of education in such circles today, far away form the long arm of the law, would you look away?
Are you truly unaware of the domestic violence and dysfunction endemic in our societies including religious households within our societies?
Are we truly unaware of the hundreds of thousands of children who have been abused by religious authority figures, including their own parents and extended family members? The stats represent children not just numbers.-
That question wasn't 'if someone beats the hell out of their children as a tool to teach religion, is that child abuse.'
Domestic violence is wrong period.
It is the exception, at least in America & I'm sure Canada also, not the rule. -
I think you'd be surprised to find out how prevalent child beating (spanking, caning, belting), denial of food, denial of sleep, and other "punishments" are in fundamentalist families. Combined with those behaviors beliefs being inculcated like you are unworthy. You are a sinner. You need a savior.Then confuse the whole thing by talking about a loving God who also doles out eternal damnation. If you don't believe and don't get saved you will burn in hell.
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I think your likely right, I would be surprised.
It is likely more common than I would like to believe (it happens among secularist also by the way. Saw such a story out of NYC just a few months ago).
I do however feel that it is more than safe to say that it is the exception and not the rule. -
Of course, and because they are exceptions, we should all continue to minimize what's being done in the homes of religious zealots right now, just as has been done for centuries. In essence, fundamentalists teach kids that paternalism and misogyny are God's will.
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In other words, timethief, because of your unfortunate experiences in your own family situation, you're going to be the leader in clamping down on religious freedoms?
You're brandishing all Christians and Christianity because of your own bias.
There is abuse in all walks of life, whether it's a maniac fundamentalist who, instead of reading the Word of God, uses the Bible for a weapon. Or the godless drunk who comes home late from the bar to molest his daughters and beat the stew out of his wife.
Or the boyfriend of the single mom who ends up killing the children.
My experiences are not yours. I'm sorry that you were mistreated. I'm assuming you don't want to share the personal details on a public forum, so I'll just have to take your word for it. I'm just as sorry that you were treated in such a way to cause you to harden your heart toward God. That is a tragedy. -
I don't think child abuse is the exception either. It's definitely more widespread than any statistic you can think of, mostly because a child is vulnerable and has no place to turn. How do you sell out your parents? You aren't indoctrinated to know right from wrong yet, so you think it's normal to get beaten to a pulp.
That being said, these are two separate issues: whether bringing children up in a religious environment amounts to abuse; and abusing children. -
timethief:
Okay, but there are many examples of these "crazy parents" who force their children to do things like memorize flash cards when they are 4 years old, to practice piano for 10 hours straight, to take up a strict dance like ballet, to study to become a doctor and get into a prestigious school, or to compete and train in sports they hate, all with harmful consequences should the child fail to meet the controlling parents' expectations. There are always cases like that with deranged people verbally and physically abusing their kids over something they think is of utmost importance in their lives. We never advise that children shouldn't play instruments or dance or play sports just because some parents take it too far and damage their children over it.
It is unfair to point out the abuse by priests and pastors without making note of the abuse teachers and aides in our public and private schools have dealt out - sleeping with students, molesting little kids, calling them horrible names, etc. What about the people raping their own nieces, nephews, children, and grandchildren. What about the kidnappers plucking children from their beds at night and leaving them brutalized on the side of the road?
This is not a religious issue, this is the human condition - we do wonderful things, but we do horrible things. If a person is screwed up psychologically, they will hurt people regardless of their profession. Religious figures will naturally get more press than the neighborhood guy who abuses his daughter every night, because we like to be shocked and we feed off of these sick tales. Priests make for a better story because they are trusted in their communities, unlike the creepy guy at the playground holding a zoom lens.
The truth is, we could remove traditional religion from everyone's lives, and most people would just replace it with another belief system not revolving around "god". How many hardcore Atheists are out there who force their children to be vegetarian or force them to refrain from watching television or playing video games? How many "health nuts" force their children to work out? How many intellectuals force their children to read Shakespeare on summer vacation and write full book reports? There are many examples, (Believe me, I have grown up in over 20 different foster homes and have seen many parenting styles), so I do not think for a second that Atheists and Agnostics make for better parents than Muslims, Christians, Jews, Buddhists, Hindus, etc etc etc.
My point is: where do you draw the line? In the end, you're just taking away people's freedoms and paving the way for pain and unhappiness, and eventually, bloody revolutions and civil wars. -
wolfmechanics,
I appreciate your level-headed way of looking at this even though you consider yourself an agnostic.
Thank you for being fair. -
There are groups right now who are training their children to take up arms for the war to come.
Literally. In fact, the whole God warrior camp was shut down after so many complaints about what they were teaching the children.
(Just syain' the whacko's aren't that small in number or isolated) -
How do we discover those households?
Do we infringe upon the freedoms of others because of what some might be doing? -
You can't do anything about the individual households, unless you have a specific complaint or concern about a particular parent/child relationship, and asking child services to intervene.
However what I was referring to was an actual camp for kids, not a household. It was a summer camp program that had the kids geared up in camo's talking about being soldiers in God's war and - well some of the things the kids were saying were on par with fundamentalist terrorist ideologies.
Seriously - that's a problem.
Some of the older kids in the camp were all into it - the younger ones seemed more scared than interested.
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@flamingpoodle
Child abuse is not the exception but is the norm?-
Yes, I mean it is more widespread than you may think. I'm not rationalising it, just stating it the way I see it.
Child and spouse abuse are widespread - so much so that it is 'normal', even though it is not considered so.
I believe that part of the problem of child abuse is that it is viewed as something inbreds do in isolation and the chances are next to none that it ever happens next door.
Each week, child protective services (CPS) agencies throughout the United States receive more than 50,000 reports of suspected child abuse or neglect. In 2002, 2.6 million reports concerning the welfare of approximately 4.5 million children were made.
pediatrics.about.com/od/childabuse/a/05_abuse_stats.htm
Percent of women surveyed (national surveys) who were ever physically assaulted by an intimate partner: Barbados (30%), Canada (29%), Egypt (34%), New Zealand (35%), Switzerland (21%), United States (22%).
Some surveys in specific places report figures as high as 50-70% of women surveyed who were ever physically assaulted by an intimate partner
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domestic_violence
I don't mean normal as in you should feel abnormal if you haven't been abused, but you certainly shouldn't feel alone if you have. -
It may well be and likely is more widespread than I know of.
Again, is it the norm?
Calls to or visits from CPS does not establish the existence of abuse.
I have, because we home school, had visits from CPS, I wasn't abusing my children.
I know others who have had visits from CPS, none of them were abusing their children.
In one case I was witness to a pastor and his wife had their children removed from their home based upon the living conditions.
The outrageous living conditions were dishes in the sink at the time CPS arrived.
The call and reason for the visit, it was found out later, was based on someone calling about the pastor using corporal punishment in the raising of his children.
This despite the fact that his own children attested to the fact that there was no spanking prior to the age of 6 (there was swatting prior to age 6) and no spanking what so ever once each child reached the age of 13.
Spanking is not illegal so legally it cannot be abuse.
Dirty dishes, within a half an hour of breakfast having been finished, is not child abuse.
The point being that just because CPS is called or visits does not mean that child abuse is taking place.
The 50,000 reports of child abuse does not mean that 50,000 incidents took place.
CPS suggested that we might be neglecting our then 10 year old because the person who visited didn't believe she read well enough.
He took all of our children to the outside balcony and "interviewed" them (the interview included a handful of very inappropriate questions, not relating in any way to the supposed reason they were there).
During this interview he had all of my kids, except the two youngest, read to him. He felt my ten year old did not read well enough. Upon testing, she was found to read several grade levels above her own grade level at the time.
CPS should not be trusted just because they say they have the best interest of children in mind. As a whole they may well, but there have been many law suits that demonstrate as a parent you are far wiser to be cautious of them than to be trusting.
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I strongly believe that teaching children to follow religions based on paternalistic structures wherein female submissiveness grounded in misogyny is also taught is a form of child abuse.
I was taught that Christian men are the rulers of all households and their wives are their "help meets" who must obey them unequivocably. I was taught that wives and children must obey the heads of their households no matter what because this is what God who could see, here and witness and control all events willed.
I was taught with the rod, the cane and the belt to recite scripture from 4 different translations in 3 different languages by rote. Unless or until I could provide a clean delivery of such recitations without stuttering, stammering or mispronunciation I was not allowed to eat, sleep, or even use the outhouse.
Failure to produce the correct recitation or losing control of your bladder was corrected with the belt, cane or rod, which was delivered by a parent or family member, who claimed to love me, and who also claimed to be doing this breaking of my bones on behalf of a loving God, who would send me to the hellfires of damnation, unless I obeyed my parents, and unless I loved Jesus.
On one hand, I was taught that I was a worthless sinner born in sin and would die in sin. I was a sinner that had no right to call upon God, but by his grace I could ,if and only if, I believed that God AKA Jesus was his own son born of a virgin, probably impregnated by an angel.
On the other, I was taught that Jesus the son of God who was also God came to dwell among us to die for my sins, and therefore I ought to pray to God, in the name of Jesus who was also God for my salvation.
I was taught that my sins were covered by the blood of the lamb. I was raised in the country and saw lambs and slaves being slaughtered. I spent my nights dreaming about a who was God in control of everything and everyone, but had so little control that he chose to send himself to his own death being slain on a cross, and dripping with blood because he chose to sacrifice himself for my sin.
What resonated in my head continuously was: what sin? How could I have sinned before birth? How could I be born into sin because Adam and Eve ate apples from a tree they weren't supposed to eat them from, because a snake told them to?
I was used as shill to "call others to Christ" simply because I had a good voice. Any small pleasure I had in singing was corrupted and denied to me as being my own. It belonged to the cult - my voice was theirs and I was compelled to perform whenever and wherever they demanded that I did so.
I survived two bible college educations and when I finally had the chance to be free I flew and then I went back and rescued every single one of my siblings and 4 cousins as well.
The only salvation myself and the other children truly needed was to be removed from the crazymakers who were our parents and who were also the leaders, pastors, preachers and teachers in the fundamentalist cult that called itself a church. Yet, there was no deliverance from southern baptist fundamentalist abuse for us.
I also strongly believe that we have become accustomed to thinking that spousal abuse and child abuse does not take place in religious homes today, when, in fact, it most certainly does. Imagine being a terrified abused child in an extended family, in isolated community who all belong to the same belief system and having nowhere and no one to go to. This was my reality. It is the reality of many children in North America and elsewhere today.
I'd like to offer the link to this video that jaybetee provided in another thread.
Talib Kweli - Def Poetry Jam
www.youtube.com/watch?v=sGvZ9aXg5Xs-
TT: Thank you for sharing this candid and painful memory.
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timethief, I may come back and post more later, but right now I just want to say thank you for sharing your story. And I am sorry you endured such a traumatic childhood.
I have two friends, both male. One is from a Catholic family, the other is from a totally irreligious family (his family was into drugs, drinking, and had no moral boundaries). The man from the Catholic family was beaten in the face with a belt by his father. It didn't have to do with the religion, though. It was more of a 'macho' type thing. The other friend was backhanded often by his own father. Neither of these friends of mine are Christian.
As far as their cases go, it is hard for them to see a Heavenly Father who can really love them after their earthly fathers so betrayed them.
I also think that they would have a hard time believing any man could be a good father after their treatment. But that would be wrong to lump all men into that category because of the failure of the ones they personally knew.
By your story, your family had very twisted notions. And I believe that unless they sincerely repent for their actions, they will face special judgment from God for hurting so greatly one of His children. -
Rebecca
timethief, I may come back and post more later, but right now I just want to say thank you for sharing your story. And I am sorry you endured such a traumatic childhood. ... And I believe that unless they sincerely repent for their actions, they will face special judgment from God for hurting so greatly one of His children.
You probably aren't aware of this but I have endured a lifetime of other fundamentalists saying what you just said to me. They say they are sorry. They minimize what happened to me and what is still happening today to hundreds of thousands of children the world over.
I do not share your belief system which I am extremely well versed in. I did not comprehend what passes as Christianity today or embrace it as a child and I never will. -
thanks :-)
When peple read our stories, they suddenly get a better understanding of why many of us don't quite view the world and religion in a traditional way and why we have asked questions and dug deeply into the exploration to find out what God is or isn't. -
Thanks for sharing TT.
I don't know that I can add anything beyond that -
@acousticaguitarist
I haven't told me "whole" story and given Rebecca's predictable response, I'm not inclined to do so. Recalling the confusion, pain and suffering does not benefit me. In every case where I have done so what I have revealed has led religious people to minimize, deny, and distract from the fact that teaching kids faulty paternalistic and misogynistic values is perverse and will only lead to more misery and suffering in their lives and in the world.
@Agit8r
Thanks for perceiving that I only gave a brief overview.
I have no issues with parents who focus on teaching their children the things that count. They are the lessons that teach us to strip off "otherness", and come together in peace to affect the expression of love for all. I have listed them below. -
TT
My sweet friend, It has been a while since we have talked... on reading this part of your story my heart was crushed for you... I have known of these things in christian circles... and I have known friends that have experienced these exact terrible things. To me it is no surprise that anyone experiencing these things in the name of Christianity would have no desire to ever come close to anything resembling it!
as I am sure you well know Jesus always reprimanded the legalistic and overbearing pharisees for creating laws and rules that were too much to bear. And from my perspective... Jesus wasn't a christian anyways... I think the big thing that is missing from your list is the same thing that many Christians forget about.
dana = authentic generosity (charitable giving of the self and sharing of possessions, donation)
metta = selfless love and good will toward all beings (loving kindness)
karuna = compassion (respect, acceptance, forgiveness)
mudita = altruistic joy filled with peace and contentment (appreciative joy at the success and good fortune of others)
sila = self discipline -abstaining from physical and vocal actions that cause harm to oneself and others
uppekka = equanimity (an inclusive state of open mind free of attachment, aversion, bigotry, craving, ignorance and intolerance)
Charis = regardless of your capability to perform all of the above... if you accept the gift of Charis you are counted as perfect.
This concept is unique to the teachings of Jesus... unfortunately most of his alleged followers reject this concept both in action and in their convoluted doctrines that they hide behind.
My friend, while I know that I may never have all the answers, I do know that my search for truth has always been greatly rewarding. I fully accept the teachings of Jesus and I seek to be more like him every day. Loving... Kind... Forgiving...Peaceful... at these things I constantly fail... my peace is found in his perfect gift of "Charis" that gives me "immunity" from the judgments of God and men.
Blessings.
Jasonthebaldguy -
@Jason
Thank you for your kindness. Long before I left Christianity behind I knew it was not my path.
Since that time I have twice been declared dead but have come back to life. I no longer fear death and no longer question what my life purpose is. I know that I am meant to live, love and learn and that's why I'm here. And this I know in my heart of hearts -- I am meant to teach as well as to learn.
Death is a transition; it's a new beginning. After my life in this body is over, I will return again to this earthly plane, with no knowledge of any past lives, and I will be faced with more lessons to learn and more to teach. Until I have learned all my lessons perfectly and taught them all perfectly, and I have become nothing but love, I will return again and again.
Not everyone has loved me in my past lives. Not everyone will love me in this life or in my future lives either. I have I not loved nor will I love everyone either but that’s okay, because at our core we are all much more the same than we are different.
What’s at your core?
thistimethisspace.com/2008/09/07/whats-at-your-core/ -
You deserve a big hug. I grew up in a Pentecostal church (no snakes involved) but I learned plenty about how people take the Bible. You can take a portion of the Bible and get good stuff. When the abusers come in they dissect the Bible and take out portions of the Bible to make the abuse ok.
My dad knew the Bible forward, backward, and inside out as he should have since he was an ordained minister. The problem with that was he was working for the other side. The side with the guy with the horns. My mom used to say even the Devil knows the Bible. I always knew she was referring to my dad.
It was because of his treatment of children and his disrespect for his wife, my grandmother, that I chose to not go to Bible college. I also understand that like any tool, it can be dangerous in the wrong hands.
This doesn't just happen in Christian religions though. This happens in religions across the board and all of these religions have the same players in the books, same message, and virtually the same circumstances. -
@Shirly
Have you read any of Brennan Manning's books? I'm ordering them in on interlibrary loan one at a time as I could only find one on the shelves here.
- "I am deeply distressed by what I only can call in our Christian culture the idolatry of the Scriptures. For many Christians, the Bible is not a pointer to God but God himself... God cannot be confined within the covers of a leather-bound book. I develop a nasty rash around people who speak as if mere scrutiny of its pages will reveal precisely how God thinks and precisely what God wants." -Brennan Manning, Signature of Jesus, pp. 188-189
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Timethief, I am familiar with your story--as we have talked about it before, to a certain extent. My heart does go out to you and for all children who are abused by people they should be able to love and trust, completely.
I hope that your sharing your story will help others understand the extent and reality of what you experienced.
((((((((hugs))))))))))
Melinda -
@Melinda
I'll take that {{{HUG}}}} thanks.
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You know, timethief, I also endured abuse at the hands of my own dad, so you don't have the market cornered on abuse. My dad wasn't a Christian. He liked to make snide remarks such as, 'sob sister sunday school teachers'. If he had truly had Jesus Christ in his heart, I don't believe he would have abused me.
I won't take up an agenda to undermine all men because of the failure of my dad. I recognize he is personally responsible for what he did, just as your family is personally responsible for what they did to you, not the rest of the Christians in the world.
But if anger and your own form of zealotry is what gets you through, so be it.-
@Rebecca
I am mindful that there are Christians who abuse their children and that the fact they do rarely ever comes to light. I am mindful that the reason this abuse does not come to light is because there are enablers who deny it's existence in order to "protect their church", and any perceived threat to their continued ability to undertake their agenda (The Great Commission).
I have stated on many occasions in threads on these forums that I take no issue with the actual teachings attributed to Jesus. They can in fact be found in other religions and philosophies.
Relationships are often troubled when religious differences arise but when they do arise, we all have the choice of seeking spiritual common ground rather than dwelling on differences.
IMO following any spiritual path is not about pledging an allegiance to institutional doctrine, dogma or a reliance on scriptures. Scriptures from all faiths provide guidelines, inspiration and contain wisdom. At the personal level spirituality is about experience and practice.
Granted that individuals and groups have different explanations for what they experience but, there are teachings and tenets for practices that can be recognized as universal, regardless of which spiritual path one may follow:
dana = authentic generosity (charitable giving of the self and sharing of possessions, donation)
metta = selfless love and good will toward all beings (loving kindness)
karuna = compassion (respect, acceptance, forgiveness)
mudita = altruistic joy filled with peace and contentment (appreciative joy at the success and good fortune of others)
sila = self discipline -abstaining from physical and vocal actions that cause harm to oneself and others
uppekka = equanimity (an inclusive state of open mind free of attachment, aversion, bigotry, craving, ignorance and intolerance)
These universals are the essence of teachings of both Buddha and of Jesus. They are also found in other traditions as well. I think these teachings do constitute common ground for what all self aware people ought to be teaching their children.
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timethief, no fruit will come from this discourse. You are as entrenched in your beliefs as I am in mine.
Perhaps we can return to the 'song phrase' game.-
It's my opinion that the the most important lessons that any parent can share with any child are the lessons that teach us to strip off "otherness", and come together in peace to affect the expression of love for all. Therefore, I cannot comprehend why fundamentalists object to teaching them.
dana = authentic generosity (charitable giving of the self and sharing of possessions, donation)
metta = selfless love and good will toward all beings (loving kindness)
karuna = compassion (respect, acceptance, forgiveness)
mudita = altruistic joy filled with peace and contentment (appreciative joy at the success and good fortune of others)
sila = self discipline -abstaining from physical and vocal actions that cause harm to oneself and others
uppekka = equanimity (an inclusive state of open mind free of attachment, aversion, bigotry, craving, ignorance and intolerance) -
and pakora
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And samusa. Nom-nom.
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I don't think it is a form of child abuse.
No parents wants their kids to be BAD & I'm sure whatever they do, they do it for the best of their kids-
@dosox
No parents wants their kids to be BAD & I'm sure whatever they do, they do it for the best of their kids
It's my strongly held opinion that paternalism and misogyny are a cancer on this planet. It's my strongly held belief that anyone who disagrees with that, and says a loving God intended this to be so is a brainwashed and deluded person.
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'Hotel California'
Oh, wrong thread!-
...You can checkout any time you like,
But you can never leave!..
Not really, no.
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No, it is not OK
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Wrong place
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YES
Religion is an abuse so don't teach your child let him be free -
I feel that atheism may be acquiring precisely those characteristics that atheists so dislike about religion — intolerance, dogmatism, righteousness, moral contempt for one's opponents. — Charles Moore
I am an atheist born and bred. I don't believe in any God. Despite this I can't help but feel uncomfortable with someone criticizing religion from a scientific perspective. Surely all religion is based upon unprovable assumptions; that is the nature of faith; most Christians, Muslims and the rest find religion helps them to be better people. Who is Dawkins to tell total strangers they are living their lives badly? It is just plain arrogance and smacks of preaching to me. Live and let live. — Tom Templeman-
Most people in the world inherit their religion... a few accept it later in life while dealing with turmoil
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Very well said, Rebecca. And I agree absolutely.
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Thank you, nothingprofound.
I'm leaving now. My little girl has been so excited about this celebration. They have inflatables she can get on and a wonderful fireworks display.
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- "The greatest single cause of atheism in the world today is Christians, who acknowledge Jesus with their lips and walk out the door and deny him with their life style. That is what an unbelieving world simply finds unbelievable." -- Brennan Manning
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'The fool has said in his heart, there is no God.'
Now I don't have time to play anymore. I have a precious child to take to an Independence Day celebration.
All of you who are painting Christians as child abusers, uneducated, delusional, and all of the other insults you love to fling at someone who is different from you (kinda like kids in high school have always done), perhaps you should take a long look in the mirror and consider your own bigotry, hypocrisy, and lack of the much touted 'tolerance'.
I've tried to be as humorous and diplomatic on this discussion board as I could, but the venom from this pit of vipers is starting to sting.
Have a good day.-
- I have looked into the mirror and what I see looking back at me is a woman, who strongly believes paternalism and misogyny are a cancer on this planet.
To be charitable I have attributed no malice to those who uphold paternalistic institutions. Instead, I choose to think of them as being brainwashed and deluded, in the sense of: Forgive them for they know not what they do." -
"Independence Day".... the irony is thick indeed
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Is that aimed at me, or the fact that the United States celebrates Independence Day?
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I was raised in the Church and am glad b/c it gave me a good moral basis even though I don't believe in every thing I was taught. What I do with that is my choice. I think it's bad to force people to go to church after a certain age. I've also seen how they can use scare tactics which only messes people up in the long run.
No God I know would want you to hate your imperfections or be so horrible. Sorry you have had to see Him that way.-
Getting raised in church gave me good moral bias too.
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This is a ridiculous discussion...Frankly the anti-religious rhetoric from the usual members is somewhat tiresome and redundant...-
Amen
The whole premise of this discussion is ridiculous and comes from a place of arrogance. And fortunately, reasoning and intelligent people recognize that. -
"a place of arrogance"
that comment is like that one from childhood...
"I know you are, but what am I"
*rolls eyes*
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Let's see, this thread is attacking people of a certain world view, heaping allegations of child abuse simply because of what they believe.
And when you falsely accuse people of child abuse because you don't accept their particular belief system, that is heinous indeed.
My posts are an attempt to point out that you can't blanket judge people simply because you don't share the same world view.
Where's the arrogance? You are the one who came in with the bait. And yes, I got caught in your trap.
I was also taught that rolling eyes is very bad manners.
You should be so ashamed. You know nothing about me except that I say I am a Christian. You have no idea of how I live my life or how I raise my children.
Christianity is about Christ. Abuses are committed at the hands of sinners.
As far as I'm concerned, this thread is an abuse; an abuse against innocent Christian parents who are loving, and would never dream of harming their children.-
And frankly, I could turn the table on you. I think it's abusive that you don't tell your children about salvation in Christ. Who decided that your views are right and mine are wrong? You did.
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We are adults and the question put to use was:
Is teaching certain beliefs a form of child abuse?
IMHO your allegations are unsubstantiated and your rage is evident in your comments. That rage could be the result of making too great an emotional investment in this issue and may be indicative of a misguided desire to control the thread. We were asked for opinions and we shared them Perhaps you need to decide to take a time out from posting to these religious threads. I intend to do that so I'm sharing my intention with you. -
I see you changed your comment on me, timethief. And don't forget you came in with your horror story of childhood abuse at the hands of 'Christian' parents to prove that Christians are child abusers.
Perhaps you need to stop talking down to people. -
yes, you could say that, the same as those who have abused and tortured and taken children from their parents and committed genocide in the supposed name of "God" have said for centuries
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Take that argument up with someone else. I'm just as horrified of atrocities committed in the name of 'God' as you are.
Christianity is about Christ. Abuses are committed at the hands of sinners.
Even Jesus was condemned and crucified by a group that considered themselves the most religious men in the world. That is no reflection on God. It is a reflection on the fallen nature of humans. -
the problem is that the lesson taught isn't "beware of religious legalists," it is "this torturous death was the will of Jesus's PARENT because all people are naturally evil" and that they need to accept part of this fate, as they "take up their cross daily"
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I'm aware of what the original question was, timethief. But you yourself brought other dynamics into it.
This thread has become convoluted, no doubt. And I'll give you this. I 'have' become too emotionally invested in it.
But the very idea that because any of you have rejected the Gospel message, which is your right to do, you think you have the right to accuse Christians of child abuse because we teach our children from our own foundational beliefs, just stuns me. That is an attempt to force your non-belief system on the family of believers. And you then have decided you are 'right' and I am 'wrong'. But who decides that? You do. You think you have the right to decide what is correct for my own children. Arrogance!
I am reminded of the passage in the Bible, though:
'8Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.
9Yet Michael the archangel, when contending with the devil he disputed about the body of Moses, durst not bring against him a railing accusation, but said, The Lord rebuke thee.'
And Jesus, when he faced his false accusers, opened not his mouth to speak.
Isaiah 53:7
'7He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.'
I do believe all things work together for good to them who love the Lord. Even my own mistakes. I have spent far too much time playing around on this discussion board. I allowed myself to get embroiled in this discussion that will just go round and round, everyone determined to get the last word.
All of those on this board who have railed against Christians have actually done me a favor. Not only have you been evidence of the truth of scripture, but you have given me a longing to go back to the Word of God which I have been woefully neglecting.
One night when I was getting really down after reading so many disparaging threads, I forced myself to turn it off and start reading from Hebrews in the New Testament. It was a breath of fresh air.
It was also a breath of fresh air to get away from this computer and go have a family day. -
perhaps I worded the question poorly. Maybe I can put it more clearly--BY ANALOGY--in another similar post
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Ironically, we had pretty much exhausted the discussion, the near-consensus being a negative to the question (which was itself was posited in a rather ironic spirit of role reversal). here were the last three comments of the thread breathing its last, before your rususcitating it:
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3 days ago Agit8r
What about other beliefs?
What about the beliefs that ones worth is measured in productive/reproductive capabilities?
What about teachings that violent actions can lead to the "reward" of getting to debauch a certain number of virgins in heaven.
What about... whatever the heck scientologists teach their kids?
3 days ago Anok
I would say that in general terms - any belief that teaches the children to harm themselves or others for a reward, or teachings that allow the harm of children under the guise of religious belief could be a form of abuse. It would have to be severe, though.
3 days ago Agit8r
I suppose everyone learns some evilness from parents. people ultimately have to choose their own ethical path
" -
Religion is ok, but whatever you do, don't teach your kids French!
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how else could we teach them Condorcet?
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So your point being that I didn't have the right to speak my views about it?
I see all the threads you start. You are an Agitator. No doubt. -
Condorcet-isn't he the guy who thought the world would keep getting better?
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@Reb,
You can keep the thread alive as long as you like
@NP
I was thinking of the quote "throttle the neck of the last king with the string from the bowels of the last priest"... but I guess that was Diderot... my bad -
Thank you. Thank you very much. Since I did have some excellent points.
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I'm not sure that you did. Did you refute that organized religion tries to halt human progress for it's own advantage? Did you refute that it harbors unjust and arbitrary power for fear of losing it's own power? Did you refute that it values "moral authority" over what is good for God's children, and in doing so harbors misogyny and paternalism again for its own non-Jesus-sanctioned worldly authority?
Please feel free to point out any points refute these? -
"Hotel California"
On a dark desert highway, cool wind in my hair
Warm smell of colitas, rising up through the air
Up ahead in the distance, I saw shimmering light
My head grew heavy and my sight grew dim
I had to stop for the night
There she stood in the doorway;
I heard the mission bell
And I was thinking to myself,
'This could be Heaven or this could be Hell'
Then she lit up a candle and she showed me the way
There were voices down the corridor,
I thought I heard them say...
Welcome to the Hotel California
Such a lovely place (Such a lovely place)
Such a lovely face
Plenty of room at the Hotel California
Any time of year (Any time of year)
You can find it here
Her mind is Tiffany-twisted, she got the Mercedes bends
She got a lot of pretty, pretty boys she calls friends
How they dance in the courtyard, sweet summer sweat.
Some dance to remember, some dance to forget
So I called up the Captain,
'Please bring me my wine'
He said, 'We haven't had that spirit here since nineteen sixty nine'
And still those voices are calling from far away,
Wake you up in the middle of the night
Just to hear them say...
Welcome to the Hotel California
Such a lovely place (Such a lovely place)
Such a lovely face
They livin' it up at the Hotel California
What a nice surprise (what a nice surprise)
Bring your alibis
Mirrors on the ceiling,
The pink champagne on ice
And she said 'We are all just prisoners here, of our own device'
And in the master's chambers,
They gathered for the feast
They stab it with their steely knives,
But they just can't kill the beast
Last thing I remember, I was
Running for the door
I had to find the passage back
To the place I was before
'Relax,' said the night man,
'We are programmed to receive.
You can check-out any time you like,
But you can never leave!' -
do not the Bible's own account of Jesus's teachings discredit paternalism. Does it not quote him as saying of children, "the Kingdom of God belongs to such as these"?
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You can get earth worms at your local bait shop.
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I told you in an earlier post that I wasn't interested in discussing your beef with 'organized religion'. All I know is Christ and Him crucified.
Christianity is about our Savior, Jesus Christ.
The only thing I came in here to discuss was the idiotic claim that when we teach our children our Christian beliefs, it is child abuse.
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When one examines the life activities of the Rabbi of Nazareth, are we not struck by his elevation of ethics over moralism. Did he have any qualms of reclining at a table with sinners. And yet who do the religious of all christian sects act more in keeping with? The simple Rabbi whose name they claim, or the Scribes, Saducees and Pharissees???
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This link is relevant to your questions.
crossexamined.org/tv.asp
Good luck in your search for 'truth'. Ha! -
HA! Who said I was SEARCHING for anything?! I called myself a Christian while I was searching.
Eventually I realized that the whole in my being was one that only Reason could fill. That Reason was the free gift given to all, which the worldly hierarchies try to cloud with superstitions.
Before I began searching, I was a slave to aquired ignorance.
While I was searching I was a slave to mysticism and bigotry.
Now that I'm found, I am free. -
dude you hit the nail on the head... "christians" and I include myself rarely act like the Jesus we claim to follow...
it is something that I actively combat in my life.
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That was the whole point of my 'ha', dude. I know you're not searching, you're Agitating.
Do you want your earth worms fried?-
just spreading the good news of Reason
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paternalism and misogyny?
Hatred of women? My Bible doesn't teach that, nor does my faith. Christ lifted women up.
And the Bible instructs men to love their wives as Christ loves the church.
I don't know what your experiences are, but my husband and I have an equal partnership and equally respect each other. And equally love the Lord.
I don't have to refute anything. It's not my job. -
"love their wives as Christ loves the church"
well I guess that isn't expressing inequality or moral authority
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