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Is the Bible a consistent source of sound moral teachings
Posted by Agit8r • 4/05/09 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: Bible, Genocide, pedophilia
Before one makes a glib answer, I would like to refer to the an exerpt from 'Age of Reason, Part 2' by Thomas Paine:
'...the character of Moses, as stated in the Bible, is the most horrid that can be imagined. If those accounts be true, he was the wretch that first began and carried on wars on the score or on the pretence of religion; and under that mask, or that infatuation, committed the most unexampled atrocities that are to be found in the history of any nation, of which I will state only one instance.
When the Jewish army returned from one of their plundering and murdering excursions, the account goes on as follows: Numbers, chap. xxxi., ver. 13:
"And Moses, and Eleazar the priest, and all the princes of the congregation, went forth to meet them without the camp; and Moses was wroth with the officers of the host, with the captains over thousands, and captains over hundreds, which came from the battle; and Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? behold, these caused the children of Israel, through the ñ thous ands, and captai commit trespass against the Lord in the matter of Peor, and there was a plague among the congregation of the Lord. Now, therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known a man by lying with him; but all the women-children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves."
Among the detestable villains that in any period of the world have disgraced the name of man, it is impossible to find a greater than Moses, if this account be true. Here is an order to butcher the boys, to massacre the mothers, and debauch the daughters.
Let any mother put herself in the situation of those mothers; one child murdered, another destined to violation, and herself in the hands of an executioner; let any daughter put herself in the situation of those daughters, destined as a prey to the murderers of a mother and a brother, and what will be their feelings? It is in vain that we attempt to impose upon nature, for nature will have her course, and the religion that tortures all her social ties is a false religion.
After this detestable order, follows an account of the plunder taken, and the manner of dividing it; and here it is that the profaneness of priestly hypocrisy increases the catalogue of crimes. Ver. 37 to 40, "And the lord's tribute of sheep was six hundred and three score and fifteen; and the beeves were thirty and six thousand, of which the Lord's tribute was three score and twelve; and the asses were thirty thousand and five hundred, of which the Lord's tribute was three score and one; and the persons were sixteen thousand, of which the Lord's tribute was thirty and two persons." In short, the matters contained in this chapter, as well as in many other parts of the Bible, are too horrid for humanity to read or for decency to hear, for it appears, from the 35th verse of this chapter, that the number of women-children consigned to debauchery by the order of Moses was thirty-two thousand.'
As for those that would discount Mr. Paine's analysis as being merely consigned to the old testament--Jesus having fullfilled the Law of Moses--I would direct those to the Epistle to the Hebrews, in which many of the Old Testament 'glories' of infanticide, genocide, exploitation of slaves, and mutilation are rehashed as examples of 'great faith'
It is no wonder so few who hold it to be the Word of God have never read through it!
User Comments
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I think Numbers is one of the if not the most horrific books among all of religious scriptures..
Just take a look at all the violence from that book,,
skepticsannotatedbible.com/num/cr_list.html -
Judges reads like a graphic novel... lots of blood and guts!
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off topic but to equate Graphic novels purely with blood and guts is not appropriate.. and I, as a big fan of graphic novels, take offense.. but that is a different matter for a different thread..
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lol, my bad. There are many violent graphic novels, but I should not have generalized.
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Now, therefore, kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known a man by lying with him; but all the women-children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.
That's a mistranslation. It should read: "spare every young woman who has not had carnal relations with a man." There's no "for yourselves" in the original text.-
the original text being?
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The Torah.
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I did a little investigating, and found nothing to disprove your assertion. So for the sake of arguement, may assume that Moses did not condone pedophilia, but merely genocide?
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Chapter and verse, please? -
Got it. Bamidbar Chapter 31. @agit8r, you're putting a very modern interpretation on the words "for yourself" and taking it completely out of context. What's going on in this chapter is that the Israelites are decimating a tribe who have gone against the Lord.
They kill all the grown men, all the women capable of intercourse, and all the young boys. "For yourself" doesn't have a prurient meaning unless you assign it one. The most logical interpretation is that the girls would be folded into the rest of the Israelites as future wives.
@satijournal, the last word of that verse is לָכֶם - you or for you. I'm not sure I see your point.
I used Rashi as my source. www.chabad.org/library/bible_cdo/aid/9959/showrashi/true -
I can't read Hebrew. I got it from the New JPS Translation version of the Tanakh, which supposedly follows the original Hebrew as closely as possible.
Translated as "for yourselves" sounds like they get to "deflower" the virgins. -
@satijournal - you're projecting. Find a single source; a single interpretation of those two words that implies a sexual connotation for them. There are dozens if not hundreds of interpretations of Badmidbar online.
It just doesn't make sense in context. Pedophelia simply wasn't an accepted practice among the ancient Israelites; there's no mention of it anywhere else in the Talmud. You're taking a story about war, and placing a veil of sexuality on it. -
I know that's not what they meant, but that's how many if not most people would interpret "keep alive for yourselves."
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@dins, actually Thomas Paine was circa 1795. Before the enormous block quote I introduced it. Mind you he was probably quoting the KJV. My Strongs concordinance wouldn't give me a precise translation of the word 'themselves', so I conceeded the point to sati.
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Yet this God is clearly trying to prevent women and men from engaging in sex and procreation...WHY?
The Bible clearly mentions the Annunaki and the Nephilim (Elohim) and they were busy having relations and intercourse with earth women.
Where is the murder of these species of Annunaki and Nephilim for engaging in sex acts with women?
Why isn't this GOD pissed off with them enough to destroy them too? hmmmmm -
LMAO
that was supposed to be funny, right? -
Nope ask yourself why was this God allowing Moses to kill off all those who engaged in having sex with each other. Were they not humans engaging in natural sex and intercourse with humans?
And what is so wrong with humans engaging and having intercourse with other humans is it not natural? Maybe this God wanted to keep a reserve few real humans under watch.
Remember they just escaped from Egypt and Egypt must of been filled and over saturated with reptilian half breeds or maybe the Israelites were the reptilian half breeds that left out of Egypt along with their strange GOD. Most still have no idea which GOD they left with out of the Egyptian pathenon. -
we're talking about the angry volcano-god from the books of moses right? I mean its like those primitive tropical islands
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YUP
Which GOD did they leave with is the question? I don't know any GOD who follows people in a cloud overhead EXCEPT FOR SETH AND SETH WAS KNOWN AS THE EGYPTIAN STORM GOD AND LORD OF CONFUSION, THE EQUILIVANT OF SATAN. -
Howard Fast wrote a book about his people ("The Jews") in which he explored the nature of Yahweh. Very interesting stuff.
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Oh this wouldn't be the 1st time that the Jews were known to worship Baal and Satan.
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Nahushtan?
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Yes fiery serpents and nahushtan
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interestinglym the New Testament compares Jesus to the "standard" that moses lifted up--that was later worshiped as the idol Nahushtan. Interesting coincidence.
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It seems to become clearer to some that MOSES worshipped Lucifer,
the light bringer.
In order for man to start at the beginning, he has to find his true maker before the mixing and genetic dna creations of other alien species came about.
Who is the true GOD who created man?
If we were created by the ANNUNAKI as a slave race, we are doomed.
How can we ever break free of our slave mentality?
How can we ever break free of the spiritual bondage that man clearly has? -
@jeunelle Are you for real?? It seems to become clearer to some that MOSES worshipped Lucifer,the light bringer.
Am I seriously reading you right that you're saying Moses worshiped Satan????
Satan isn't even a Jewish concept - it's a CHRISTIAN concept. I'll thank you to stop slandering Judaism. -
I have nothing more to add and if BC feels that I have slandered this most holy discussion I am sure they will delete which ever comment they felt was slander.
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That's your reply? To run away? To not even acknowledge that what you're saying could be perceived as offensive or distasteful? That possibly someone might get upset at hearing bizarre theories about their religion?
I wonder what religion taught you that's moral. -
No, Satan was an angel acting as the district attorney for God in the Jewish bible. Christians turned him into something evil by taking some of the Zarathustra myths and combing them with Jewish folklore, and that's how they arrived at their concepts of heaven and hell, and the devil.
As a side note, the word pandemonium comes from the word demon and it's when all hell breaks loose in hell. -
@satijournal...As a side note, the word pandemonium comes from the word demon and it's when all hell breaks loose in hell.
YES or on the BC discussion platform.
dinsquared....I sent you a private shout a few minutes ago, so NO I am not running away. However since you blocked me just a few seconds ago I will now add what I sent you by shout here.
I am sorry that you feel offended by what I said through this discussion. I almost never post religious views because so many people get offended too easily. The comments that I added here are from many books that many different people from many different faiths are buying and reading today.
Are they my own personal beliefs? NO
When having discussions like these many who do not believe the bible or the word of the bible, they will read other books and they will form their own conclusion no matter how far off they are from your suppossed truth. That is the reason why I usually don't discuss religious views.
Sorry that I angered you so much that you choose to block me but hey I've tolerated worst here at BC.
The fact is there are many books out there today that have many different views on this book we call the bible.
There are even lost books of the bible that are not included in our regular bible and if some people are not satisfied with the holy book they will look elsewhere for answers and form their own conclusions.
When they form their own conclusions, should we then prevent them from stating their views in public?
If not where is their freedom to express their beliefs?
The fact is many people will get offended when you discuss and do not fully agree with their religion
or even if you make mention of that religion in a way that offends the offended.
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Absolutely not. There's murder, revenge killings, deception, etc.
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Religions have been blamed for around 2 BILLION deaths by historians.. the Nazis were devout Catholics, had Vatican support until the US invaded Italy, then the "front runners" changed sides! no morals at the Vatican..
The problem is MATERIALISM - people take the Bible literally - the authors DID NOT intend this... read my metaphysical meanings of the Bible's symbology here: bibledecoded.blogspot.com
Religion is a PRIVATE matter between you and "whatever" you worship - IT WILL NOT AND NEVER HAS worked for society as a whole!
Religious freedom is the only way, which means NO RELIGION can dominate the others, and MUST BE kept OUT of all government!
.. jose, the 'littlegods' guy..
(we are all little gods, we just need to create a better world)-
@Joes
Religion is a PRIVATE matter between you and "whatever" you worship - IT WILL NOT AND NEVER HAS worked for society as a whole!
Religious freedom is the only way, which means NO RELIGION can dominate the others, and MUST BE kept OUT of all government!
I heartily agree with you but many religious people do not. For example: evangelical Christians, who rely on literal translation of the Bible, and who have their own interpretation of the OT which is not in keeping with Judaic interpretation have a 7 point program which they are pursuing to introduce more and not less of their religious beliefs into legislation and governance in America and throughout the world wherever possible ie. in democracies where the majority religion is Christian.
It is their position that America was founded as a Christian nation. Currently the sloganeering going on is to this effect: "We are being systematically excluded from governance as if we are a minority and we aren't. Let's show them the power of the majority."
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oops! wrong spot
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ps- I meant to add that the Bible permits SLAVERY (and RAPE of female slaves), also GENOCIDE (when the Philisistines were "slain, every man, woman, and child, there was rejoicing in the streets of Jerusalem"
THIS IS A HARSH RELIGION to base any SOCIETY on - it basically boils down to "Might makes right", and the mighty can enslave the weaker!
Is this religion or SUPPRESSION and dominance??
Under this PHILOSOPHY, then the Nazis were "god-fearing christian soldiers"...
anything promoting HATRED and REPRESSION can't be good for mankind!
Religious zealots, missionaries, preachers - anyone spreading their own WORD is part of the problem, not the solution! Thankfully the US was created to STOP religious persecution, which means the MAJORITY has to respect the rights of MINORITIES and NOT try to convert or suppress them!
This is just common humanitarian decency. Even the Roman Empire allowed religous freedom! We can't become worse than them!
As for "moral teachings" - the 10 'Commandments' were just a re-working of what you had to recite in Egyptian religions when in the House of the Dead! ("I have not killed", "I have not ordered anyone killed", etc) - there were 11 basic commandments, and you had to also say "didn't order", "didn't allow" - the sins as well! that way you couldn't avoid judgment by getting OTHERS to do the crimes for you.
SOMETHING THAT THE half-hearted "MOSIAC LAW" left out!! hence all the murders and killing "ordered by" Judeo-Christian religions, almost constantly!!
We've gone BACKWARDS, not forwards - the ethics of the Bible were "less" complete than the Egyptian religions that preceded it!
-- Jose-
I meant to add that the Bible permits SLAVERY (and RAPE of female slaves), also GENOCIDE (when the Philisistines were "slain, every man, woman, and child, there was rejoicing in the streets of Jerusalem"
There's a difference between what was permitted under either the Torah or the Christian bible, and what is common practice these days.
I can't speak for Christianity as I'm not familiar with its evolution, but Judaism is constantly evolving and being reinterpreted. In Judaism the Torah is a living, breathing document meant for discussion.
Thankfully the US was created to STOP religious persecution
Yeah, sort of a myth, or at least only part of the story. Those nice folks who came here via the Mayflower because darn it they just couldn't practice under King George? They set up camp so they could practice religious freedom. It kind of didn't occur to them til much later that they had to expand that concept to others, too.
I'm just saying that things are not as black and white as you think. -
In Judaism the Torah is a living, breathing document meant for discussion.
Mine doesn't breathe. Wait a minute... I think I heard something... No, that was the dog.
Reform Judaism is more open to new interpretations than say, Orthodox or Conservative
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Taking a look at the subject, from a broad historical and ideologically benign perspective, it's a moot point really.
It is easy to blame the major religions for all kinds of ills through the ages but the idea that the world would have been a better place without them is pure fantasy.
Focusing on the Bible and Christianity lets have a little zip back through time to Before Christ. Ok, so we can imagine it might have been fun to live in the Roman Empire but that rather depended on if you were in the circus looking out at the audience screaming for your blood, or in the audience laughing heartily at seeing a person ripped limb for limb. Polybore's point here is that there was no Golden time before Christianity. The world, even where relatively civilised, was a horrible amoral place.
Back into the polybore time machine and we scoot forward in time (wheee!) passing from BC to AD and for another 1215 years. During this time the Christian world is in the Dark Ages, a ghastly mess of disease, war and death. However the only reason we know anything about this time is because of the scholarly and theological work of Christianity.
Then wallop! Magna Carta 1215. POW! The Declaration of Arbroath 1320. Both the products of Christian Clergy, hundreds of years of study and their interpretation of the Bible and their faith in relation to the freedom of humanity. Nothing was ever going to be quite the same again. Democracy, Common Law and the American Declaration of independence follow.
So, in the grand scheme of things, Polybore says yes. The Bible is a consistent source of sound moral teachings.
Anyway, The Old Testament (stories from the bad old days) is superseded by the New Testament (stories for the future). One thing polybore notices in these types of debates neither side generally mentions the main protagonist of the Bible (which is weird because according to the Bible He was the Son of God), Jesus.
Christian fundamentalist crawl off to some backwater of the Old Testament to back their claims or to some bystander with their own opinions. Christian bashers do the same to validate their view. Frankly, polybore says "pathetic time wasting and a plague on both your houses". Ironically both sides of the argument are closer to one another than they realise. Duh.
Polybore thinks that Jesus (fact, fiction, myth or legend) was super cool and if Christians and Non Christians spent a bit more time focusing on his story we would be a lot better off. A topical example being when Jesus booted the money lenders from the temple.-
Anyway, The Old Testament (stories from the bad old days) is
superseded by the New Testament (stories for the future)
Dinsquared really can't believe Polybore actually just said that.
My Bible is not from the bad old days, thanks very much. It's quite alive and relevant to me. I could say that your Christian bible was just a bunch of yahoos re-writing things they didn't like so they didn't have to do them. I could, but I wouldn't.
I'm not interested in your Jesus, personal or otherwise. -
@Polybore:
Very interesting reading! Thank-you!
I also think Jesus is super cool.... -
Paine did beleive that Jesus' teachings were fine and virtuous, but he denied his divinity. Nor did he believe that God was the volcano god of the books of Moses.
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nope - I will not post (exit stage right)
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dinsquared Bearing in mind what you have said Polybore has read the piece over a number of times and would like to draw your attention to:
"Taking a look at the subject, from a broad historical and ideologically benign perspective"
Here Polybore clearly sets out that the argument is not designed to promote or deride any particular faith.
"It is easy to blame the major religions for all kinds of ills through the ages but the idea that the world would have been a better place without them is pure fantasy."
To clarify for you, here Polybore's expressed sentiment includes Judaism.
"Focusing on the Bible and Christianity..."
From this point on Polybore is focusing specifically on Christianity and the Christian Bible because that is within the parameters of discussion topic set by Agit8r
Polybore understands that you have inferred, from the use of (stories from the bad old days) in relation to the Old Testament and (stories for the future) in relation to the New Testament, disrespect to The Torah.
Polybore has considered their response to you carefully. Unfortunately due to the tenuous nature of your inference and the fact that it flies in the face of the spirit and clearly defined objectives of the post polybore disregards your comment.
Furthermore Polybore feels obligied to point out that
"I could say that your Christian bible was just a bunch of yahoos re-writing things they didn't like so they didn't have to do them. I could, but I wouldn't."
is one of the most astounding displays of bare faced hypocrisy that Polybore has ever witnessed. It is absolutely clear that you lurked in that thread waiting for someone to say something positive about the Bible so you could let fly your preprepared bile. Disgraceful. -
@polybore is absolutely clear that you lurked in that thread waiting for someone to say something positive about the Bible so you could let fly your preprepared bile.
That's extremely funny. My actions speak quite clearly in regards to this, so I'll direct you to any number of other religious threads in Blog Catalog where you can see my "preprepared bile".
Polybore thinks that Jesus (fact, fiction, myth or legend) was super cool and if Christians and Non Christians spent a bit more time focusing on his story we would be a lot better off
Am I not allowed to find this distasteful, as it disregards my own faith and beliefs? Considering this entire post has turned into some sort of discussion about bizarre theories on Judaism, Egyptian gods, the devil, etc. thanks to @Jeunelle, you'll forgive me for being more than a bit testy. -
bizarre theories according to you, other people don't find them too bizarre
or as bizarre as worshipping a God they have never seen or met.
I find that more bizarre, yet you call me insane. lmao
You're the only one who is judging this whole thread. Everyone else came in and said what they had to say and moved on. I find the entire human race bizarre, especially those who worship something unseen, a phantom.
I don't even take these debates seriously.
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[As for those that would discount Mr. Paine's analysis as being merely consigned to the old testament--Jesus having fullfilled the Law of Moses--I would direct those to the Epistle to the Hebrews, in which many of the Old Testament 'glories' of infanticide, genocide, exploitation of slaves, and mutilation are rehashed as examples of 'great faith']
Irrelevant. It's still in the Bible and it's still immoral. QED.-
Also, it's kinda hard to be morally consistent when half the book isn't moral.
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right, my point was that it is morally inconsistant. The teachings of Jesus and of the other teachers of ethical Judaism are the only bright spot.
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Why does this shock so many?
Did we not also read in the Bible that Moses was fleeing from the Lord out of Egypt
because he murdered an Egyptian in anger. Once a murderer, always a murderer.
It's pretty obvious to me that POWER & KNOWLEDGE was always reserved
and given to the Elite.
This power & knowledge that walked out of Egypt with Moses was no ordinary God,
in fact this God is responsible for a lot more than you all think.
Maybe you all should be asking exactly "which God did Moses walk out of Egypt with"?-
Let me give you a hint
Above the tents the people can clearly see a dark cloud above them, which was said to contain the Lord or the spirit of the Lord that went with them wherever the people went. Who was the Egyptian God of storms and clouds? -
RA is the head God of the Egyptian pathenon but RA is no where mentioned
or even compared to Moses/Israelites God.
Also note that the Israelites were known to worship a God called Adonai
but later made the switch to Jehovah and it is written in text that Jehovah was once seen with reptilian skin who burned people by fire and raped virgins or so it was told. -
@Junelle...I don't think you know what you're talking about here. Adonai is simply another name for God. "Jehovah" is not a name Jews use. It's a transliteration of the Hebrew letters Yud Hey Vuv Hey, which is said "Adonai", not "Jehovah". Jehovah is not God's name.
is written in text that Jehovah was once seen with reptilian skin who burned people by fire and raped virgins or so it was told
What text? -
I'll have to dig that text up for you and drop it.
Adonai is used to replace the word Lord.
Jews replaced Adonai with Yahweh.
www.eliyah.com/whythlrd.htm
We see in the above quote that Jews started to vocally replace the name "Yahweh" with "Adonai" (Lord) for two reasons:
1. It was beginning to be believed that His name was too sacred to be uttered
2. They preferred to simply call Him "Elohim" rather than "Yahweh" to demonstrate to the world that He is the only true Elohim. -
@jeunelle Find me a neutral historical source that says that "Yaweh" or "Jehovah" was ever a name used among the Jews or the ancient Israelites. Not a a Christian source. Yes, God's name is not pronounced because it is too sacred. God's name is not Yaweh or Jehovah.
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@Jeunelle While I generally don't rely on Wikipedia, it does a good job here.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Names_of_God_in_Judaism -
I am just dropping what other people believe not what I believe.
I know that God's name if I worshipped a God is not Jehovah or Yahweh.
I knew that years ago just like I know that Jesus is not Jesus true name.
There is obviously a lot of confusion here with the different Gods and different beliefs but I enjoy offering many different possibilities but never saying what I actually believe in, that I keep to myself. -
@jeunelle I don't see you throwing out "opinions" about Christianity or Buddhism, or Hindu, or Islam. I see you slandering Moses, and Judaism and it's highly offensive.
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Again NO I am simply asking questions and it is natural for my mind to go where it wants and ask them.
Gnostics equated Ialdabaoth with the Hebrew Yahweh, whom they saw as a jealous and wrathful deity and an opponent of the supreme God whom Jesus came to earth to reveal.
The book "Jumpin Jehovah" by Paul Tice gives a different view and tracts this God from the old testament crafty character, Jehovah, conned and bullied his way to the top of the godly heap. He then maintained his standing through threats and coercion - and when that didn’t work, he did what only a mentally deranged god would do:
he just moved in and killed people.
He delighted in roasting people alive and tormenting his followers in a variety of creative ways. So why is he worshipped as God?
Basic theological questions are explored, such as: Was Jehovah really a god, or a demon? Why did Jehovah never promise a heaven or any kind of reward to his followers? Does any entity that murders thousands of devoted followers deserve to be worshipped? What are the differences between a false god and a true one?
Many questions about this God and where is this Jehovah today? -
You're missing my point, which is that you've turned this entire post into some sort of forum for your books' bizarre "theories" about Ra and snakes and "Jehovah" and Judaism, and that's offensive. That you can't just spout off about that shit and expect that it's all going to be sunshine and roses, and when someone does get upset just snif that you're just talking "possibilities" and things you've "read" and blow it off.
Forget it. Blog catalog isn't worth this. Hardly a sane one here. -
WOW I am sorry you are getting offended.
If I knew you would be this offended, I would not of bothered to waste my time posting. I honestly didn't come out here to upset people.
However if the many different views that I presented are offending you, I don't need to post them, this discussion isn't really worth that much to me anyways.
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Ancient Egypt has many underground secret stealth technology reserved for the Elite.
Area 51 is one of the USA's most secret technology development centers, it is also the world's most longest runway. What lands here?
The Sumerian Empire was formed by invading aliens called the Annunaki.
Sumer is also known as "Ki.En.Gir" which means "land of kings with blazing rockets".
Ancient Egypt has many hieroglyphics which clearly show many serpent headed and bird headed humans.
Ancient Egypt also clearly shows many unexplained devices and machines depicted in the hieroglyphics.
The Sumerian clay tablets describe the Annunaki aliens genetically manipulating mankind and creating a hybrid race of alien reptilian humans who became known as the Nephilim. The Nephilim are also known as the Elohim in the Bible.
This was a genetically race of rulers who had their human DNA mixed with the invading Annunaki aliens.-
Bourbon or Single Malt?
jk -
I don't think I'll be drinking anymore, not even wine.
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Birds are actually feathered serpents and share the same reptilian Dna as terradactyl's
and dinosaurs, the entire planet is covered with serpent Gods depicted in many different cultures from Native america, South american to china and the far east.-
they just flew well enough that the cavemen couldn't hunt them into extinction
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They seem to be ever evolving almost like cockroaches, you use RAID
yet some get away. -
This would also shed some light as to why Religions place emphasis on not mixing the races.
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There isn't anything against that in the OT or most religious texts... in fact "keeping for themselves" the women-children (if thats how it translates) would imply the very opposite.
As far as I can tell, it's just an old southern thing
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Could be and who knows for sure what the heck they meant
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The creator is so misunderstood. Not only did the creator shape man He came to live as a man and then to provide the perfect sacrifice for man's salvation. He died for all of mankind but not all of mankind is willing to acknowledge they need a savior. Has his sacrifice been wasted on you?-
It's kind of like voting... one won't make a difference
www.ariarmstrong.com/2008/07/did-resurrection-myth-precede-jesus.html
www.religioustolerance.org/chr_jcpa5b.htm
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Life-death-rebirth_deity#List_of_life-death-rebirth_d... -
I do not think I need a savior I know I do and I accept the fact that as a human there are some things I just cannot do.
Sorry but I cannot place a guilt trip on anyone. If the last sentence is what you call a guilt trip then so be it but you do not know my heart so get to know me before you judge me.
I personally do not believe in a hell fire that you spoke of so no that will not come from me. -
Not judging here. just informing
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was the door on the right side of the stage locked? lol -
@InClark
Thanks for the offer but I don't want to get to know you. Also the no judging commandment applies to Christians only and I'm not one, so I'm free to judge and I do. I judge all the arguments presented by Christians to un-believers in effort to secure their conversion to be to be circular reasoning.
img.chan4chan.com/img/2009-04-01/1238544137729.jpg
Circular Reasoning – supporting a premise with the premise rather than a conclusion.
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I make sure to consult Exodus whenever I'm going to sell a daughter into sex slavery, so that I can do so in a godly manner. -
well you would want to get top dollar if you were living in that day, dughh
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Is there a place in BC where people can discuss their views freely without other people getting so upset even if you disagree with them? Apparently not when it comes to religion.
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Juenelle - You seem to misunderstand the difference between thoughtful disagreement or debate, and wild, offensive theories.
I'll not apologize for becoming outraged when seeing my religion, and my religion alone dragged through the mud under the guise of "things you read" and don't necessarily believe.
It's quite the typical response to become the agitator and then play the victim, as in "Is there a place in BC where people can discuss their views freely without other people getting so upset even if you disagree with them?"
Words have meaning and power, and the respectful debater understands this, and knows how to debate a position in such a way that others' are not getting trampled on.
The cowardly debater insists "They're just theories! They're not even mine!" -
[Words have meaning and power, and the respectful debater understands this, and knows how to debate a position in such a way that others' are not getting trampled on.]
Yeah. You have to first learn the rules before you can efficiently break them. -
[I'll not apologize for becoming outraged when seeing my religion, and my religion alone dragged through the mud under the guise of "things you read" and don't necessarily believe.]
If people from other religions start taking part in the discussions, it would be wonderful.. but unfortunately, it is only the Christians we got here -
All right! Another cat fight! WhooooHooooooooooooooooooooo!!!
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and this is the problem we have with religions today. As soon as someone says anything that is offensive we are ready to cut out their tongue and some religions even commit murder if challenged with the excuse that their religion is a bit off.
I am not asking you apologize just like I won't apologize for what I said or what I read.
However this discussion no longer holds any interest for me and I really don't care what you call me.
A coward in my view is not the definition of a coward in your view.
The fact is if your religion and all these other religions had the answers I am sure this would have been a loving environment without war and strife over a God or Gods no one has seen.
You seem to think that I have a gripe on your religion but I am here to say that I have a gripe on all religions, they all have major problems.
@satijournal....glad you are enjoying the show but this is not a fight in my view, I stated what I've read and if some become offended by what I've read that is life.
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Keyphrase "moral precepts of Jesus"
Jesus's teachings were wonderful.. I agree
but the Bible is more than just the new testament, you know.. it also has the Old Testament
that is why the discussion.. it is not morally consistent -
Right, "moral precepts" not christian doctrine, of which he said:
“Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man”
ouch -
YES and when we bring these facts out some are getting a bit angry.
There are other books of the bible and the old testament shows some really violent past of worshippers many years ago. THAT IS FACT. -
I reposted my "Founded as a Christian Nation" post just in case there was any question about... say... how John Adams felt
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The Bible is a How To and How Not To guide -
I believe that the bible has some good and some bad, you just have to pick up the sound advice and leave the bad advice. It's kinda like going apple picking. Are you going to pick the rotten apples along with the ripe? I have to admit though, it has been the cause for a lot of suffering and killing over the years. Like the verse "thou shalt not suffer a witch to live" Salem witch trials anyone? Not to leave out the hundreds of people this saying still kills every year in third world countries. -
Right, right... but should you let your kids read it?
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Yes, as well as wiccan doctrine, Buddhist doctrine, and what ever else they can get their hands on. The Bible is filled w/ all sorts of bad stuff but they'll hear about that in history class too. I have been reading it since childhood.
I also believe there is no true religion so I truly don't care who practices what. With kids it is more important to me to teach my children to accept others and their differences this includes religion. I draw the line at completely crazy stuff though. Holy rollers with snakes, virgin sacrificing, space ships coming to rescue us lets commit mass suicide crazy stuff. -
..."spiritual warfare"...
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the bible was put together by some dudes for political reasons. They decided what books to keep in, and which to burn. Therefore it cannot be looked at as the complete teachings of christianity. The only reason the roman empire turned christian was to appease the growing pop of christians who were beginning to out number the pagans. poo.-
mixing government and religion...ALWAYS bad news!
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