Discussions
legalizing the sex trade
Posted by timethief • 9/27/09 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: legalization, medical examination & treatment, prostitution, sex trade, stds, taxation
- Although I do not actually approve of prostitution and would not recommend this occupation to any adult,I have believed for a very long time that prostitution should be legalized, and that those in the sex trade ought to be paying taxes on their income like the rest of us do. Moreover, I wish to see every sex trade worker have access to frequent medical examination, and where required, treatment to prevent the spread of sexually transmitted diseases.
Some think "we've come a long way, baby".
Today we still find that the majority of sex trade workers are people with serious problems like drug addiction, alcoholism, homelessness and a plethora of personality and psychological disorders.
Many are young women and men who have been sexually abused as children by family members and/or guardians and/or authority figures.
In addition, we are witnessing an active international sex slave trade that is a growth industry. Many young people are being transported from country to country to provide sexual services, primarily to middle aged and older men.
Discussion questions:
(1) Do you think prostitution (adults only) should be legalized? If so, why and if not, why not?
(2) Provided you do support legalization of the sex trade (adults only), what's your opinion on requiring frequent medical examinations and treatment, where required?
(3) Whether or not you do support legalization of the sex trade (adults only), do you believe out society ought to provide assistance for those sex trade workers with problems like drug addiction, alcoholism, homelessness, personality and psychological disorders to get who into treatment, re-establish their health, build self esteem, and obtain other employment training skills?
(3) Provided you do support legalization of the sex trade (adults only), do you also support income tax laws being applied to sex trade workers?
User Comments
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with the exception of child prostitution, i would say yes to all. And would include that all wage/working hours/workplace safety laws should be applied. Especially the use of Personal Protective Equipment.-
Thanks for addressing the "child prostitution" aspect. I edited the original post (OP) to make it clear that I am NOT advocating for legalization of child prostitution.
I also think your other suggestion re: wage/working hours/workplace safety laws and Personal Protective Equipment are excellent ones. Thanks for posting them.
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If the great pimp Don Magic Juan pays taxes, so should his hoes.-
Sentiment understood. Thanks.
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I didn't even know that pimps gardened...
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Lol
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I do hear tell that some are even handsome rakes.
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ah, touche!
at least we aren't afraid to call a spade a spade -
But we still need to dig a bit deeper to get the root of the matter. -
lol
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Absolutely X4-
Yay! I'm so happy to hear that other people do care as much as I do about this issue, and that they want to see change too.
IMO no amount of lecturing and moralizing is going to change the bottom line, whether or not the sex trade remains illegal or is legalized it' time to move forward on this issue that affects and threatens the health and well being of so many.
I have also been reading arguments against legalization. Not a link to my blog -> www.rapereliefshelter.bc.ca/issues/prostitution_legalizing.html
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Might as well. I don't see prostitution becoming a thing of the past soon.
Everyday the cops just go round and round in circles by arresting a prostitute, and then the next day she's out on the street again. If she goes onto better things, there'll be another one to fill her place. And it just carries on and on and on.
As Einstein once said: 'The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results.'-
Wow! Excellent quote and so fitting in this case. Also I'm glad you brought forward the futility when it comes to policing sex trade workers, keeping them overnight in jails at public expense, and releasing them the next day. There are great costs that are associated with it and with the court proceedings end of things as well.
Have you read the arguments against legalization? (link in my comment above) I find them to be weak.
Instead of managing the problem through the medical and social interventions accompanied by regulation of the industry, critics of legalized prostitution would rather adopt prohibition and cold abandonment.
Well, prohibition and cold abandonment haven't been effective previously, and aren't effective now so why would we assume the same old, same old is the way to move forward?
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I mean hey, what ACHEmpire does is legal...
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Currently, prostitution is legal (with some restrictions) in Canada, most all of Europe including England, France, Wales, Denmark, etc., most of South America including most of Mexico (often in special zones), Brazil, Israel (Tel Aviv known as the brothel capital of the world), Australia, and many other countries. I
It is either legal or very tolerated in most all of Asia and even Iran has "temporary wives" which can be for only a few hours! New Zealand passed in 2003 one of the most comprehensive decriminalization acts which even made street hookers legal which is causing many concerns.
I do NOT support public nuisance street hookers being legal unless in special zones. But private consenting adult sexwork should be legal as it is in most of the world except the U.S. www.sexwork.com/coalition/whatcountrieslegal.html
Nevada is one of only two U.S. states that allow some legal prostitution; in most of its rural counties brothels are legalized and heavily regulated. (In Rhode Island, the act of sex for money is not illegal, but operating a brothel, pimping and street prostitution are illegal.) Prostitution outside the licensed brothels is illegal throughout Nevada. Contrary to popular belief, prostitution is illegal in Las Vegas (and in Clark County which contains its metropolitan area). Currently 8 out of Nevada's 16 counties have active brothels; as of June/July 2008 there were 28 legal brothels in Nevada. -
"I do NOT support public nuisance street hookers being legal"
It seems like loitering laws would apply to most such cases.
As to the comment that you are replying to, i just meant that there is an element of prostitution to bourgeous sexuality. Promise ring anyone?
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Yes, the arguments against it are weak. It's illegal as we speak, and it's a booming business despite that.
Also, the reason why prostitutes get maltreated by their clients, is because their clients know they can get away with it. They know that what the prostitutes do is illegal, and are therefore helpless in seeking recourse against their perpetrators. Legalize it, and you take that 'right' away from the abusers.
Another thing. Many men are attracted to the world of prostitutes precisely BECAUSE it is illegal. Forbidden fruit is often the juiciest, so to speak. They get off on the fact that they are breaking the law.-
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Excellent point.
This is the Coalition Against Trafficking in Women International (CATW) position:
"No woman should be punished for her own exploitation. But States should never decriminalize pimps, buyers, procurers, brothels or other sex establishments. "
Here's a contrast:
In the Netherlands, legalization amounts to sanctioning all aspects of the sex industry: the women themselves, the so-called "clients," and the pimps who, under the regime of legalization, are transformed into third party businessmen and legitimate sexual entrepreneurs. Legalization/decriminalization of the sex industry also converts brothels, sex clubs, massage parlors and other sites of prostitution activities into legitimate venues where commercial sexual acts are allowed to flourish legally with few restraints.
What do you think? -
@spot
Thanks for the second excellent point. Legalization removes the "forbidden fruit" aspect. -
i'm not sure about the 'forbidden fruit' thing... I'm sure some guys get off because they are breaking the law, but I would guess it's a small minority, I don't think legalizing prostitution would hurt profits. I think profits would make a gigantic jump upwards, especially because I'm sure there are far more people who don't pay for sex because they are afraid of getting caught and going to jail! I'm sure they would compensate for the guys who refused to pay anymore because legalization took away some sort of 'spark.'
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Yes, I think prostitution should be legalized.
Why? Because I don't consider it a crime.-
Thanks for commenting NP. Please feel free to continue to contribute to the thread.
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@internetrentboy
I worked in the sex industry and although I didn't have sex with my clients, many of them said that the forbidden fruit aspect of being 'naughty' added to the thrill of sex with prostitutes. Some found it to be addictive, precisely because of the extra thrill which is also enhanced by the fear of getting caught. They may not be in the majority, but enough of them mentioned it for me to take notice.
You can liken it to couples who get off on having sex in public places. The fear of getting caught intensifies the experience.
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@TT
I fully agree with the CATW position. After all, it's not the pimps or the buyers or the brothels doing the actual physical work and risking the dangers. It's different because they are exploiting ANOTHER human being for their own gain, which is akin to slavery. A prostitute should be able to make her own choice and work independently, and keep ALL of her hard-earned money for herself.
And yes, if legalized, prostitutes should pay taxes, just like every other legal worker out there.-
We are on the same page. I wonder, what do others think?
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Pimps are absolutely worthless. They do not even provide any capital to the arrangement. The workers being the "capital" themselves.
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Is there anything in this world more useless than a pimp? Pimps, who are victimizing their employees are racking up policing, court, and medical expenses that we all have to pay for. The rate of reported violent assaults by pimps who victimize the sex trade workers who work for them is high. I imagine the cases that go unreported are even higher.
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More worthless than a pimp? you're asking a political blogger?
seriously though, the answer is no... or not much. There are other equally terrible people out there in a variety of professions. -
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As I said in the original post, (OP) many sex trade workers are young women and men who have been sexually abused as children by family members and/or guardians and/or authority figures. Many are runaways, who are "groomed" by pimps, who supply them with street drugs and thereby ensure they are addicted so they keep on working.
I'm thinking that by legalizing the workers only, and not the pimps, we may be able to provide those workers who want to escape the trade, with assistance to regain their health, get job training and establish a healthy life, in a way that we cannot do, while both the workers and the pimps remain illegal and underground.
What do others think?
Edit: I must log off now. Sleep well. See you all tomorrow. -
@agit8r
I clicked the link. that's shocking!
Under the federal worker-safety law, causing a worker's death remains a misdemeanor. -
Why shouldn't the same apply to all workers, regardless of age, sex and nationality? The temporary visa system needs to be fixed as well, so the person working gets to keep all his money! -
I don't know why this is the case in America. I assume it protects corporations that have workers in high risk jobs from being sued, but I hasten to add that I have no information or knowledge of this federal law south of the border. I suggest that contacting your elected representative(s) and letting them know you support changing this may be a helpful starting point for obtaining more information and initiating change.
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If we have "free-trade" agreements with nations, their workers should have at least as many rights as workers here. Unfortunately this is not the case.
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Even the "free trade" agreement serves discriminatory based on nationality. What does it do for workers from other countries?
To protect worker interests a uniform policy is required
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I've heard arguments about not including 'sex trade income' as business income and not requiring hookers, and prostitution trade in declaring income taxes.
The argument would be that to include sex trade earnings into income as a business, there should be deductible expenses spent to generate the revenue .. including pimp fees, drugs, rent and of course, medical costs .. and this really wouldn't exactly create a new source of income (taxes) for the government (e.g. break even, non-profit and lousy NET income and earnings)
The logical way to go would be the Al Capone method of income tax evasion of the pimps, and people benefiting from the sex trade - besides the ones actually giving the sex away for trade.-
but .. to answer your discussion questions:
1) No .. i don't think prostitution should be legalized.
2) I do not think there should be require medical treatments of people labelled in the industry - but, medical treatments should be available for those who are seeking it.
3) I do think society should offer help to those who are addicted and seek help .. and currently the government does offer education grants and retraining programs if you look and ask for it. -
Thanks for answering the questions and sharing your POV.
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I've never understood why prostitution was illegal. I see absolutely nothing wrong with it between adults, and I agree with what Nevada does, as far as requiring medical testing and requiring that income be subject to taxation.
I've never priced a prostitute in Nevada, but I would imagine that the cost would be somewhat higher than a average hooker on a dark street corner in some major metropolis. Therefore, if prostitution were legal, I would imagine that there would still be a demand for "cheaper" sex - where those offering their services would bypass whatever laws would be in effect.
How do places like Nevada and the Netherlands deal with that? I imagine that anyone circumventing the laws could be arrested, not for having consenting sex with an exchange of money, but for violating health regulations and tax evasion.-
Nevada ogles the potential tax dollars of legal prostitution
A lawmaker is proposing legalizing brothels in Reno and Las Vegas. Gambling revenue is down sharply in the state.
articles.latimes.com/2009/jan/23/nation/na-legalize-vegas-prostitution23?pg...
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TT, there is unfortunately little more I could add here - it's pretty much unanimous.. try to think of a more controversial viewpoint next time!
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Ha! Ha! Ha! troublemaker
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I am hoping Melinda will comment on this one tomorrow.-
@libdrone
There have been 28 pages of threads on this topic and the links can be found in the Discussion search box
www.blogcatalog.com/discuss/search.php?q=prostitution
Melinda, Anok, MadameX, Dane Morgan, myself and many other members have discussed this in previous forum threads. You will find Melinda's contributions in this Shameless Blog Promotion thread.
www.blogcatalog.com/discuss/entry/should-prostitution-be-legalized
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Its legal here (on the provision that its done indoors and away from residential areas) but to be honest legalizing it has only made it guilt free to those who pay for it. Its done nothing to clean up the streets.
But
I agree there is a demand for sex and have no problem with it being a legal profession if the right health checks are done.-
I understand that in 2003 New Zealand passed one of the most comprehensive decriminalization acts which even made street hookers legal and that aspect (street prostitution) is now causing concern.
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I agree. No matter how everyone looks at it, it is still a job.
Medical treatments should be addressed because they are also like us.
Taxes as well.-
Thanks for contributing.
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Yes, I think prostitution should be legalized. Just like I think a lot of drugs should be legalized too, but that's for another discussion. -
Just to clarify: ONLY FOR ADULTS!!! And I would define that as 21 because I think 18 is too young for anyone to make life decisions.
21 probably is too young too, but at some point people will make their own decisions anyway.-
Then you shouldnt be able to join the military until 21 either.
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Discussion questions:
(1) Do you think prostitution (adults only) should be legalized? If so, why and if not, why not?
Yes - adults ONLY and I agree w/ bringbackpluto - 21 years of age - at 18, you don't know what you're up against.
(2) Provided you do support legalization of the sex trade (adults only), what's your opinion on requiring frequent medical examinations and treatment, where required?
Absolutely - OSHA regulates workplace safety around here - why wouldn't prostitution be regulated/monitored/health care benefits etc....
(3) Whether or not you do support legalization of the sex trade (adults only), do you believe out society ought to provide assistance for those sex trade workers with problems like drug addiction, alcoholism, homelessness, personality and psychological disorders to get who into treatment, re-establish their health, build self esteem, and obtain other employment training skills?
Aren't there already programs/churches/organizations etc... who already do this?
(3) Provided you do support legalization of the sex trade (adults only), do you also support income tax laws being applied to sex trade workers?
Absolutely!! If we're going to legalize and incorporate into the GDP, tax away!! (I'm also for legalization of marijuana - think of the tax profits!)-
Thanks for taking the time to reply to all of the questions. I'm not clear if the age of majority in America is federally set or provincially set. I'm also not clear on how it would affect the age for sexual consent, volunteering for military service, being served alcohol, etc.
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oops! I said "provincially" what I meant to say was "set by the state".
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I/m for it. I could then offer myself openly as a "grandfather figure" to those young college coeds who have such fixations. Even advertise my rates!-
Oh Rivy ... you crack me up
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Im for legalizing it. But just because its made legal doesnt mean that people will follow those rules.
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That's true. There will always be rule breakers not matter what.
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I agree with you TT. There's a projet on Brazilian Congress legalizing prostitution but the religious lobby is so strong and nothing happens.
Brazil exports prostitutes to many countries (There are almost 80,000 only in Portugal) and our big problem is child prostitution. That is a serious thing and it attracts foreigner tourists. Now we have severe laws against it but the Brazilian Police is very corrupted and almost every week we have a scandal on breaknews.
Behind prostitution there are many criminal traffics. Many Brazilian women get the illusion of getting rich abroad but whe they get in Europe the become slaves and having their passaports taken by the mob.-
Child prostitution breaks my heart. And the men that prey on them are the sickest of all.
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Child prostitution and teen prostitution break my heart too. When I see the sexualization of young children, by their own parents, evidenced in our society today I am outraged. I believe the sexualization of children is linked to both child prostitution, and to child abuse, which often gives rise to teen prostitution.
The vast majority of sex trade workers commence work as abused and neglected children. The "homes" they escape from are full of drug and alcohol abuse as well as poverty and domestic violence. Many become runaways from their parents homes and from foster homes where they have been molested.
The societal environment they are raised in worships young flesh and young flesh is seen everywhere these days in advertising for a plethora of products. What do we see in schools and in the malls?
I see (low a$$ or skinny a$$ pants, spaghetti strap tops on pre-teen school girls, halters and muffin tops on highschool girls, etc.). I see mommy and daughter look-alike outfits with mommy's cleavage and belly exposed for all to view. Add to that the influence of images of presumed role models like Miley Cyrus and other celebs, in the media and what have you got? A society that is turning children into sex objects.
It's not only the kids themselves who keep these celeb role models at the top and fuel the "young flesh" obsession. They get lots of help from adult males (fathers of children), who like to drool over masturbatory material, while fantasizing having sex with "young flesh". That's not to mention their moms, who are desperately striving to look younger than their age to keep their men "happy". -
Lost youth: turning young girls into sex symbols
Toddlers in tube tops and naked teen pin-ups no longer seem to shock us. How the sexual image of young girls is being manipulated
www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2009/sep/18/lost-youth-young-girls
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I recently saw a doc (with Roscoe) about the underage sex trade industry in New York, although it's everywhere.
I don't have a problem with women, grown women, who for whatever reason choose to sell their bodies to make money. Quite honestly, if a man offered me enough I cant say I'd turn him down. BUT, I think that the young women are getting targeted to much in inner city areas and brought into that industry in a big way. I don't think there is enough enphasis put on that.
And yes if I have to pay taxes so should Candy down on 24th and East.-
I don't know what you mean by Roscoe and I'm gleaning from the context that "doc" refers to a documentary. Can you clarify that please?
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Clearly, as a sex worker, I think it should legalized. However, once again timethief, I have to take issue with some of your statements.
"Today we still find that the majority of sex trade workers are people with serious problems like drug addiction, alcoholism, homelessness and a plethora of personality and psychological disorders.
Many are young women and men who have been sexually abused as children by family members and/or guardians and/or authority figures."
I'm not saying I KNOW it's not true, but these just sound like your own assumptions... Can you back these statements up?
The internet has changed the face of the sex industry. Thousands of sex workers have moved their business online. I know pimps still exist, but there are also many well run escort agencies and many more self employed escorts that just do it by themselves when they need a buck (like me). These are people putting themselves through college, paying rent, paying for kids, etc. I can only speak from my encounters and experiences... but I'm not sure the 'vast majority' of sex workers are abused, molested, drug addicts.
Again, I think you are assuming that to be a sex worker, a person's life must have sunk to some awful, low level... but many people are just ok with sex work, and so they do it because it pays well. I'm not saying it's not a flawed industry (and for me, that's a strong argument for legalization), but it's important to realize that sex workers come from all walks of life. I think one of the reasons people are scared of it is because of these assumptions that its just a 'lowlife' business.-
The sex trade worker research done in Canada and specifically in Vancouver's east end does back-up what I say. You can find it online. I'm not aware of any research being done in NYC on this but perhaps you are as that is where you reside.
Aside from what I shared I'm aware of some adults, who chose to be in the sex trade, who have not suffered child abuse, and who are not drug or alcohol abusers, and who do not suffer from personality, psychological or mental disorders. -
As of 2009, prostitution on the internet has been flourishing as many sex workers have moved to internet sites such as Craigslist and myRedbook to solicit sexual encounters. In turn, pimps have used these sites to broker their women.
Some tech-savvy pimps use social networking sites such as MySpace or Twitter to recruit young, troubled, and often underage girls. Children who are already at risk of recruitment into prostitution face increased danger on the web, which offers a megaphone through which kids unwittingly announce their vulnerability to the world. blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2009/02/pimping.html
According to Ernie Allen, president and CEO of the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children, or NCMEC, the internet has given pimps the ability to recruit young girls not just from poor, broken homes, but from a broad spectrum of society.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Center_for_Missing_and_Exploited_Children -
Google "Very Young Girls" which is about the sex trade going on in NYC.. YES the majority were sexually abused. This is a very true statement.
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I have never been aware of prostitution being legal in Canada. Of course, we do have "massage parlours" or as they are known on the street "rub & tugs". These businesses ARE legal, however, the minute a sexual service is performed for pay the business and the john have both committed a crime.
There is a man who lives in my city that just got a 30 month jail term (that's pen time btw)for cohercing women into prostitution, running an illegal brothel (massage parlour) and living off the avails of prostitution. He was the owner of 3 parours within the city and was also a driving instructor (this is where he would find women to work for him). Quite twisted really ...
As for legalizing prostitution, I am for it. I'd like to ideally, see these women & men work in a house or brothel as it allows them a safe and regulated area in which to sell thier trade. I think places like Carson City, Nevada have the right idea.
They pay taxes
The house gets 50% of what they make daily
They must have no criminal record and a clean bill of health to get hired as well as a license to work.
They have to take a mandatory range of tests for all STD's each month and pass or they are fired.
They pay $20.00 room & board per day as well as get 3 meals per day
Each rooms comes equipped with a panic button in case of emergency
All clients MUST wear a condom, no matter what sexual activity is performed
In my opinion, this is exactly what should be set up and required everywhere that prostitution happens. Of course the street pimps do and will not share the money they make with the women or the tax man, and that is where we will always have problems. Street prostitution will never go away due to one simple reason... greed.
If we can provide legal houses/brothels to these women & men I think it would benefit them as well as the communities in which we live, work and raise our children.-
[quote] There is no general crime of prostitution in Canada. However, many of the activities that are usually associated with prostitution are classified as criminal offences. [/quote] www.torontocriminaldefence.com/articles/EEAFZllkEEfGCBJCfp.php
In Canada, prostitution itself (exchanging sex for money) is not illegal, but most activities surrounding it (such as operating a brothel, being found in a brothel, procuring or soliciting in a public place) are illegal, making it difficult to engage in prostitution without breaking any law.
Although Canada is a federation, the criminal law applies throughout the country, the laws are the same all over Canada.
Soliciting in a public place is illegal (automobiles are considered public space if they can be seen). Running, owning or occupying a brothel is also illegal.
Private communication (telephone, e-mail etc) for the purpose of prostitution is legal.
In accord the Canadian Criminal Code yhe following activities are unlawful (the law applies throughout Canada):
* owning, running, occupying or transporting anyone to a bawdy house (ss.Canadian Criminal Code 210 [6] and 211 [7]); a "bawdy house" means a brothel and is defined as "a place that is kept or occupied, or resorted to by one or more persons, for the purpose of prostitution or to practice acts of indecency"
* procuring or living on the avails of prostitution (s. Canadian Criminal Code 212 [8]);
* paying for sex from anyone under the age of 18;
* public communication for the purposes of prostitution (s. Canadian Criminal Code 213 [5]);
a public place is defined as "any place to which the public have access as of right or by invitation..... and any motor vehicle located in a place.... open to public view"
* bringing someone to Canada to work as a prostitute;
* bringing someone from Canada to work as a prostitute outside Canada.
See also: Human Trafficking & Modern-day Slavery gvnet.com/humantrafficking/Canada.htm
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The government needs to devote more time to real problems and not who dose this or that for money i.e. sex for pay.-
Thanks for commenting.
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I think prostitution should be legalised to protect those working in the industry. No amount of laws can stop prostitution so we might as well legalised it. Through legalisation, the governing body can have more control of it and stop any form of human trafficking/slavery. They would also be contributing taxes which is a contribution to the economy.-
I think prostitution should be legalised to protect those working in the industry.
I agree with you and I'm glad that my country (Canada) has recognized this need.
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Well I'm sorry,but it shoulndt be legalized....your giving the government permission to treat women like a piece of garbage....yea real nice-
I attribute the tradition of treating women like garbage the world over to paternalism, wherein women are not considered to be the equal to men, but were considered to be inferior, and the dictum was and still is that they need to be controlled by men. The tradition of paternalism is where monogamy, marriage, and the double standard re: infidelity came from.
Traditionally, in paternalistic societies women and children were the chattels (possessions) of men (their fathers, male relatives, and/or husbands) and could be loaned out, prostituted, assaulted, raped, unlawfully confined, and even killed by their owners with impunity. But it's okay if you wish to disagree with me. Thanks for your opinion. -
[I attribute the tradition of treating women like garbage the world over to paternalism, wherein women are not considered to be the equal to men, but were considered to be inferior, and the dictum was and still is that they need to be controlled by men.]
I concur.
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(1) Do you think prostitution (adults only) should be legalized? If so, why and if not, why not?
Yes. Selling is legal. Sex is legal. Why is selling sex illegal? (Apologies to Carlin.)
(2) Provided you do support legalization of the sex trade (adults only), what's your opinion on requiring frequent medical examinations and treatment, where required?
I'm in favor of it. We keep workers and products safe elsewhere in the market, why not do so with sex?
(3) Whether or not you do support legalization of the sex trade (adults only), do you believe out society ought to provide assistance for those sex trade workers with problems like drug addiction, alcoholism, homelessness, personality and psychological disorders to get who into treatment, re-establish their health, build self esteem, and obtain other employment training skills?
Yes, absolutely.
(4) Provided you do support legalization of the sex trade (adults only), do you also support income tax laws being applied to sex trade workers?
Yes. Their revenue could mean my venture capital.
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I'm in favor of it. We keep workers and products safe elsewhere in the market, why not do so with sex?
We are on the same page and I thank you for your comment. I was amazed to find this out about the USA at the link posted above:
www.blogcatalog.com/discuss/entry/legalizing-the-sex-trade#comment_1139278
Under the federal worker-safety law, causing a worker's death remains a misdemeanor. -
That's outrageous! D:
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Regulation seems to work in Europe, although the illegal trade and human trafficking exist next to it. U.S. laws about prostitution are about as realistic as prohibition was in its day. The morality of it is beside the point. Outlawing it just removes the state's ability to protect sex workers and public health.
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Your last two sentences say it all. It's astonishing that America has only two states Nevada and Rhode Island that have taken steps to recognize the situation and address it.
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(1) Do you think prostitution (adults only) should be legalized? If so, why and if not, why not?
No. Decriminalised but not legalised. Polybore makes this distinction because they want prostitutes to be able to seek help without prosecution but at the same would not want people who might otherwise not consider selling themselves to consider doing just that. Call polybore old fashioned but there are other more fulfilling career paths available.
(2) Provided you do support legalization of the sex trade (adults only), what's your opinion on requiring frequent medical examinations and treatment, where required?
There is a problem with this. If you support legalisation but only on the basis of certain conditions being met, like medical examinations, immediately you are going to criminalise some prostitutes because for one reason or another they will not do it.
e.g. a prostitute is beaten up, if they missed their last couple of medical exams and have effectively been trading illegally would they ask for help from the police?
(3) Whether or not you do support legalization of the sex trade (adults only), do you believe out society ought to provide assistance for those sex trade workers with problems like drug addiction, alcoholism, homelessness, personality and psychological disorders to get who into treatment, re-establish their health, build self esteem, and obtain other employment training skills?
Yes. Polybore would however go further than that and offer all sex trade workers a route out, not just those with additional problems. The career of the majority of sex workers is short, unpleasant and ultimately unrewarding.
(4) Provided you do support legalization of the sex trade (adults only), do you also support income tax laws being applied to sex trade workers?
Again there is a problem with this. As soon as you have a group of government approved prostitutes who have medical check ups and pay their tax you will also have unregulated prostitutes who will work illegally.
The reason for this would be that prostitutes paying tax and or medical bills would pass these extra overheads on to their customers. Some customers will pay the extra, many more will not despite the dangers, if the price is lower elsewhere.
And the price will certainly be lower elsewhere. There will be illegal prostitutes undercutting the price, controlled by pimps and subject to prosecution for tax evasion and unlicensed sex. Pretty much what we have now. Back to square one.-
Polybore would however go further than that and offer all sex trade workers a route out, not just those with additional problems. The career of the majority of sex workers is short, unpleasant and ultimately unrewarding.
This is a complex issue and you have provided food for thought. I appreciate where you are coming from. Although we do not know for sure how many male and female sex trade workers may want to leave the industry I do agree that the opportunities ought to be available to all.
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In Finland, it is legal to take payments for sex, but it is illegal to pimp out other people. Prostitutes don't need to pay taxes, nor are they required to do health checks. They are however, required to stay off the streets as in "out of sight out of mind" but it is legal to run your own website for example advertising your services.
Apart from the health checks I think this is a good system. The girls seem to be in it of their own free will (as pimping is illegal) and even though it might attract more the unprivileged (read: dumb) women, there are a lot of highly educated women working in the industry, just because they love doing it.
There has been discussion in Finland from both sides: to make it completely illegal and to make it equal to any other job, but so far the status quo has remained in the middle.-
Below is what I gleaned form the internet about prositution in Finland.
Prostitution has not been common in Finland and it has not been professionally organized. Previously there used to be no street or child prostitution. However, the situation has changed since the beginning of the 1990s, when prostitution became more common and more organized.
In 1999, following Sweden's adoption of tough legislation which criminalized buyers of sex and Finland debated doing the same. The bill was rejected in parliament by a narrow margin.
The police spoke of hundreds of women from Estonia and Russia, who work as prostitutes in their home countries but come to Finland to earn additional money tourist visas. And in early 2000 there were 13 sex clubs in Helsinki, as compared to only one in 1998.
I understand that in 2006 Finland originally had plans to ban all purchasing of sex services, but the government have agreed on a partial ban instead.
With a vote of 158 to 15, MPs approved a version of the bill which would only criminalize buying sexual services from prostitutes if pimps or human trafficking were involved. The punishment for first-time offenders is six months in prison.
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(1) Do you think prostitution (adults only) should be legalized? If so, why and if not, why not?
Yes, I believe prostitution should be legal. Simply put, it is a business transaction between two consenting adults.
(2) Provided you do support legalization of the sex trade (adults only), what's your opinion on requiring frequent medical examinations and treatment, where required?
Medical examinations should be required. I have read "model" legislation where examinations would be required to insure the health of both the prostitute and the person acquiring services.
(3) Whether or not you do support legalization of the sex trade (adults only), do you believe out society ought to provide assistance for those sex trade workers with problems like drug addiction, alcoholism, homelessness, personality and psychological disorders to get who into treatment, re-establish their health, build self esteem, and obtain other employment training skills?
To be honest, I do not support any type of government assistance regardless of one's occupation.
(4) Provided you do support legalization of the sex trade (adults only), do you also support income tax laws being applied to sex trade workers?
Absolutely.-
I'm not clear how medical exams can be required in America. We will have to agree to disagree when it comes to government assistance but I'm sure you won't be surprised by that. Thanks for your thoughtful replies to all of the questions I posed.
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@ TT - Mandating medical exams, I believe, would not differ from mandatory drug testing for employment, or the eye exam required for receiving your drivers license, or even health exams required for food handlers here in the US.
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Do you think prostitution (adults only) should be legalized? If so, why and if not, why not?
Yes. Nobody has the right to tell adults what they may or may not do with their bodies. If you want to sell yourself short then like any transaction, it's between you and the person with the dosh.
Provided you do support legalization of the sex trade (adults only), what's your opinion on requiring frequent medical examinations and treatment, where required?
No. Your medical record is your private information. It is not the business of the government or anybody else. I do not believe it should be a requirement, but I'm all for voluntary, indepedendent, privately owned organisations who provide a '100 days disease free' sticker to their members.
Memberships is of course voluntary, as is displaying such information. Having such regulatory bodies is a good idea, but it will fall in the same corruption pitfalls as other overseeing governing bodies that require membership or participation if there is one overseeing governing body.
By ensuring private ownership and competition among such bodies, instead of conglomoration to get away with meeting minimum requirements, the price and service of such bodies would remain market-related instead of conglomerating to fix prices from a central point maffia-style.
Whether or not you do support legalization of the sex trade (adults only), do you believe out society ought to provide assistance for those sex trade workers with problems like drug addiction, alcoholism, homelessness, personality and psychological disorders to get who into treatment, re-establish their health, build self esteem, and obtain other employment training skills?
No more than anyone else gets it. I believe such services should be paid for by private individuals and not provided by the state.
Workers in the sex trade can pay for health insurance. I actually think that if the sex trade became legal, the stigma that causes self-esteem issues would disappear. Prostitution is the oldest profession that there is. If you don't agree with it, you should try to do something on the demand side instead of victimising the supply side.
Provided you do support legalization of the sex trade (adults only), do you also support income tax laws being applied to sex trade workers?
I'm not a fan of income tax for anyone. However, sex workers must also be able to deduct expenses from this tax (red lights and wigs, medical expenses, prophylactics, whatever they need) and they should pay income tax same as anybody else.-
I agree with flamingpoodle regarding the income tax. As long as I'm paying, so should anyone that chooses this or any other occupation.
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@flaming poodle
I appreciate the thorough way you answered the questions and provided your reasoning as well. Thanks for contributing.
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I do believe that prostitution should be legalized. I am a former prostitute and will actually give a link to a story about an experience I had while working on an outcall in NYC. To me, this story highlights the need for legalized prostitution.
I hope it is okay to leave this link--but I do believe this is very relevant to the discussion here.
blog.melindaville.com/2008/08/25/should-prostution-be-legalized.aspx
I believe most people working in the sex industry have problems that are deep rooted. Almost every woman I knew while working as a dancer and call girl had been sexually abused while growing up. Most were addicts, myself included. I believe that help for these root problems are needed but locking women up is absolutely detrimental to all aspects of society.-
I'm so sorry to hear that you went through that Melinda *hugs* and as odd of a statement as this may seem, I thank you for your honesty and ability to share something so deeply personal with us..
Bettie -
@Melinda
What more can I say that hasn't been said? You are a courageous woman with a heart of gold -- a champion. Thank you for all you have done to help others, for what you continue to do every day, and for all you intend to do in the future.
♥ you -
That's horrifying! You must be a strong person to live to tell the tale today.
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I don't get this statement, maybe I'm missing something here ..
"In Canada, prostitution itself (exchanging sex for money) is not illegal, but most activities surrounding it (such as operating a brothel, being found in a brothel, procuring or soliciting in a public place) are illegal, making it difficult to engage in prostitution without breaking any law."
Maybe we should be saying that "private prostitution" is legal in Canada as all of the above examples are what we, as citizen recognize as illegal acts. If a john picks up a woman on the street corner and he is caught, he goes to jail or john school just for "making a deal" with said prostitute.
example:
How much for a blowjob?
$50.00 says the woman
man agrees
Boom, you have just committed a crime. So you see, my point is that you don't even need to be involved in the sexual act, just the dealings and exchange of sexual services for money is enough to land you in the slammer, have your license taken away and of course there's always that call to your wife at 4:00 am letting her know of your whereabouts.
I do not claim to know it all but I lived on the streets from the age of 13-15 years and I have seen many arrests dealing with prostitution and the clients that pay for thier services.. Things are never as black & white as they may seem on the surface..
just my two cents.-
Yes, and I thought I acknowledged that up here and even included all the Criminal Code sections.
www.blogcatalog.com/discuss/entry/legalizing-the-sex-trade#comment_1139970
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my family comes from a country where (adult)prostitution is legal and regularized so I don't see where the problem is.-
@lolitav
Thanks so much for contributing to the thread. I appreciate it. -
Ooops, wrong place
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This is immorality: to continue to allow the exploitation of women, children, and teenagers by paternalistic countries because of religious beliefs; and to deny health coverage and protection to victims and workers. Pimps and child pornography and child exploitation must be vigorously prosecuted and prostitution decriminalized. Countries that invade others to spread ideologies and religions along with diseases, and exploit the women in those countries must be sanctioned.
Namaste-
I agree.
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Dear Count,
Thank you so much for weighing in on these issues. I know you are aware that I agree whole-heartedly with you, and that like you very much wish to see a shift in consciousness take place across this planet that leads to action.
It amazes me how many do not consider where these repressive and negative attitudes towards women, children and teens spring from, and how they are transferred from generation to generation. As it's a directly related I'm going to post the link to my article: Paternalism, monogamy and marriage aren't natural
thistimethisspace.com/2009/09/18/paternalism-marriage-monogamy-arent-natura...
Namaste -
Although paternalism is a major issue, let us not forget that there are male prostitutes too.
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Indeed there are now, and have always been, male prostitutes, and most appear to be initiated into the sex trade during their childhood and youth by older men.
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Yeah, I wanted to be a male prostitute. But I always forgot to collect payments. Doh!
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@ flamingpoodle - That's what happens when you just roll over and go to sleep.
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That and you took my wallet!
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Well, George Carlin said it best, "Selling is legal, sex is legal, why isn't selling sex legal?"
There really isn't any good argument against legalizing prostitution. Just like with marijuana, legalizing prostitution would reduce crime not increase it. -
I read that in many areas over 50% of prostitutes are kids. Over 1 million worldwide. Most only go into it because of poverty. You probably would not make enough money in taxes on just the adults to make anyone even consider it.
This is probably the reason I think why it is not legal and never will be. If it can't raise a huge sum of money in taxes, they probably figure why bother with it.
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