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Morality: Subjective or Objective?

Posted by RMania • 9/16/08 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: morality, objective, subjective

Classic question. Do you think morality is a subjective or objective construct?

I don't understand the claim that morality is objective. If you take away humans, then moral rules become meaningless. If something is dependent upon the minds of humans (subjects) for existence, then is it not by definition subjective?

User Comments

9/16/08

Anok

I think morals absolutely subjective.

Or, subjectively absolute.

Confused yet? (Quit smoking that dope!)

[reply]
1. 9/16/08
  
  DrowseyMonkey
  
  Absolutely.
  
  I think it's subjective ... what's the other option? Absolutes. I don't like absolutes.
2. 9/16/08
  
  RMania
  
  "Confused yet? (Quit smoking that dope!)"
  
  No, I understand. May I light up now?
3. 9/16/08
  
  Anok
  
  heh
  
  I think that each moral is absolute for the individual, but on a grand scheme is subjective.
  
  For example, harm - what constitutes as "harmful" varies from person to person, but when they draw that line in the sand, they have an absolute moral. It's safe to say that the majority of humans would agree that "harm is bad" what they can't agree is on the definition of harm.
  
  So you see, it's both absolute and subjective.
4. 9/16/08
  
  RMania
  
  I don't think it's accurate to say that it is "absolute" for each individual, if you are using "absolute" as synonymous with "objective," meaning existing independently of people's minds. If you just mean firm or unchanging, well that's not true either... almost everyone re-calibrates their moral compass as they go through life.
  
  "It's safe to say that the majority of humans would agree that 'harm is bad' what they can't agree is on the definition of harm."
  
  But even a complete consensus on right and wrong would not make morality objective. It would just be a subjective consensus. Think if the whole world agreed that vanilla is the best ice cream flavor. Would that make it objectively true?
5. 9/16/08
  
  Anok
  
  Oooh, oh oh, I was substituting absolute and objective...
  
  Sorry.
6. 9/16/08
  
  RMania
  
  Not a problem.
  
  So do you agree, disagree... ?
7. 9/16/08
  
  Anok
  
  Yes and no...while I agree that one probably cannot separate themselves from their emotion and personal bias enough to determine any set of morals objectively, I also believe that they can objectively prove why their morals are what they are.
  
  For example, we'll go back to "harm". Let's say, drug use. Sue says drug use is morally wrong. Tim asks why, Sue gives a list of reasonable, logical reasons of why it is harmful, backed up by provable although anecdotal evidence as case in point examples.
  
  While some aspect of emotion is dictating these morals, there are also real, tangible, and provable reasons for said morals.
  
  I guess philosophically speaking, even a hint of emotion or human instinct would render is totally subjective, but I think the reality is a bit different than that.
  
  You can even see "moral" guidelines in animal kingdoms - and unless you believe animals have human like emotions, then they engage in totally instinct based morals, which are really based on objective principles geared towards survival.
8. 9/16/08
  
  RMania
  
  We do basically agree. I was making this point in my response to DrowseyMonkey. Certainly, like you say, there are certain behaviors that are objectively more conducive to survival and well-being than others. But the belief that survival and well-being should be the standard to begin with is subjective.
  
  Of course, like in other animals, the drive to survive (and as a social species, to feel empathy and cooperate with one another to some degree) has been firmly rooted in us through evolution, so practically speaking, we don't really need to worry so much about the subjectivity of morality unraveling society.
9/16/08

howisbradley

Totally subjective, though I'm sure there will be those who come on quoting the Bible and saying it's objective.

[reply]
1. 9/16/08
  
  RMania
  
  Yeah, I anticipate that as well. But you can't debate somebody who ignores logic. I'm more interested if there are any secular people here who claim something like "murder is wrong" to be an objective fact. I've encountered such people before.
2. 9/16/08
  
  DrowseyMonkey
  
  Well, I would say murder is wrong and I don't have a religious belief system.
  
  But ... there's always factors that go into why someone murders, which is why we have our legal system. There are different degrees of murder and different sentences depending on a lot of various factors.
3. 9/16/08
  
  RMania
  
  Drowsey,
  
  Believe me, I think murder is wrong too. I just recognize that it is a subjective viewpoint based on my innate desire to survive and sense of empathy. Of course, it is a viewpoint shared by most people across cultures because it is clearly good for the well-being of our species.
  
  I'm not denying that there are certain rules and beliefs that are objectively more suited to overall well-being of humanity. When we can agree on a purpose for our moral system such as that, then we can in theory rationally and objectively derive moral rules. But still, the underlying belief that our morality should be guided by a concern for our own welfare is still a subjective one.
4. 9/16/08
  
  fershur
  
  I was thinking just that when I ran into your comment :D. I guess really that fact proves it is subjective because the mere answer is based on ones personal views anyway.
9/16/08

voodooKobra

Well, Anok summed up what I was going to say on this. =\

[reply]
1. 9/16/08
  
  Anok
  
  Hey punk ass! I'm bored. Entertain me.
9/16/08

annaswan

Subjective as a whole - absolute as an individual belief. I agree completely with Anok on this one. I believe I shall have another cookie absolutely, but my hubby thinks this is subjectively immoral and constitutes gluttony. Go figure.

[reply]
1. 9/16/08
  
  Anok
  
  There is no such thing as cookie gluttony.
2. 9/16/08
  
  annaswan
  
  Hahhaaa... once again - I agree!!!
3. 9/16/08
  
  Anok
  
  Heeheeheee
4. 9/16/08
  
  RMania
  
  annaswan,
  
  I don't think it can be both like that. If the claim that "murder is wrong" is subjective, then it is subjective, regardless of who agrees or disagrees with it. Likewise, if it is objective, it is objective, regardless of who agrees or disagrees.
  
  You believing that you are entitled to another cookie without being labeled gluttonous is a subjective opinion. Something can't just be objective for one person, when the definition of objective is that something exists or is true independent of what anyone thinks or perceives.
  
  The fact that you think you deserve another cookie is objective. In other words, it is absolutely true that you hold this opinion... but the opinion itself is still subjective.
9/16/08

CrystalRaven

did someone say cookies? I am absolutely never object to cookies!

[reply]
9/16/08

morgantj

Subjective

[reply]
1. 9/16/08
  
  Anok
  
  Pfft, that's just your opinion.
2. 9/17/08
  
  voodooKobra
  
  You're supposed to say, "Well, that's just, like, your opinion, man..."
9/17/08

earthlingorgeous

Subjective

[reply]