Discussions
Need for an Informed Muslim View
Posted by Norski • 8/05/08 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: Culture, koran, muslim, qur'an, quran, religion
There's been some unpleasantness at a Minnesota university recently. An associate professor trashed a consecrated Host, some pages from the Quran (I know, there are other spellings), and a book by Richard Dawkins.
I have been able to write from a Catholic view on this topic, but am not so well-informed about details of Islam.
As the post says, "I would appreciate it if a Muslim would explain ... what significance the Quran has to Muslims, whether or not associate professor Myers' acts are acceptable: and why.
Thanks in advance.
anotherwaronterrorblog.blogspot.com/2008/08/self-satisfied-ignorance-euchar...
(This is a 'drive-by' discussion post - I'm going to be away from a computer for a while.)
User Comments
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[An associate professor trashed a consecrated Host, some pages from the Quran (I know, there are other spellings), and a book by Richard Dawkins.]
He threw a cracker in the garbage.
[I have been able to write from a Catholic view on this topic, but am not so well-informed about details of Islam.]
The Muslims don't care. They think PZ Myers is an "attention seeker."
If you're looking for someone to get butthurt about, try me.
www.kobrascorner.com/opine/wafers-donohue-catholic-league.php-
And so he is, in my opinion.
Pretty good at it, too.
The atheist point of view has been quite well represented in this matter, by associate professor Myers.
I'm hoping to discover what a Muslim view of the Quran is - preferably one not filtered by news media, or other traditional information gatekeepers. -
[I'm hoping to discover what a Muslim view of the Quran is - preferably one not filtered by news media, or other traditional information gatekeepers.]
They see it as a non-issue; unworthy of their attention. Catholics could take a page from him.
Right now Myers has received death threats from Catholics for how he has treated his own personal property. Last I heard, not ONE Muslim sent Myers a death threat. -
"The Muslims don't care. They think PZ Myers is an 'attention seeker.' "
Two points:- I have good reason to believe that Islam is not monolithic ( anotherwaronterrorblog.blogspot.com/2007/12/theyre-all-muslims-this-does-no... )
- I'm looking for a Muslim's view on this topic
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Death threats.
That's been reported about the Florida student, too.
It's possible. However, the more carefully-researched news stories write that the Florida reports that he has received death threats.
There's a difference.
And, yes: there are Jim Adkissons around. There could be one in Minnesota. ( anotherwaronterrorblog.blogspot.com/2008/07/islam-in-information-age-afghan... )
But I'm not terribly concerned about Myers' safety.
I am, however, quite curious about the Islamic angle on this matter. -
Then perhaps the fact that he has not received a single hate email from a Muslim supports my hypothesis that they don't give a rat's ass.
scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/07/i_get_email_20.php#more
scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/07/the_confraternity_of_catholic.php#more
scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/07/not_again.php#more
scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/07/rolls_eyes_its_a_cracker_peopl.php#more -
Perhaps the fact that there is no evidence whatsoever for these supposed death threats should be considered. I took a look at his blog and he has posted excerpts from letters that he received. Not one of them included a death threat. A few even said they'd pray for him.
If you have some proof other than the word of someone who admittedly hates religion please tell us. -
scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/07/i_get_email_special_cracker_ed.php
Myers doesn't hate religion; he just thinks it's silly. -
Yeah, right.
If he just thought it was silly he wouldn't speak so violently against it. -
Islam is most certainly a monolithic religion. If you doubt that, you'd have to doubt the monolithic status of Christianity due to the trinity.
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Catholics have miracles performed by Jesus as part of their proof of Gods existence.
The Muslims believe that the Quran it self is a miracle and the only miracle given them to proove Gods existance.-
Use of the word "them" implies that you're not a follower of Islam. Could you clarify that, please?
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That's it. I'm out of time. Thanks for the responses.
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Okay, this thread can die now then.
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No I am not a Muslim,I have been interested in all religions but from strictly historic and political point of veiw not spiritual. When I moved to Morocco I needed to educate myself on the traditions and history of Islam to understand the culture that I live in.
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XanthePat,
Thanks for the clarification. What you said fits what I've read about the Quran. I do appreciate your sharing your knowledge.
And, kudos: understanding the culture where one lives is important. Vital, if getting along with people is important.
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Here's a pretty darn good blog, though I don't know if he's dealt with your specific issue: www.juancole.com/-
juancole.com does contain some references to the Quran, but does not seem to discuss the significance of the Quran as a whole in Islam.
Thanks for the link, though. (On an unrelated topic, I see in the August 5, 2008, post that the 2001 letters anthrax strain came from Ames Iowa, not Fort Detrick, as is being said in the news. Perhaps it came from Ames, via Fort Detrick.) -
Have you tried the online reference section of your university library? Might not be all restricted databases.
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You might also find a relevant discussion thread here: www.h-net.org/
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No, I haven't - thanks for the tip. And the link.
On the other hand, I don't want to get obsessive over the anthrax thing. It's just one facet of what's going on.
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Fahrenheit 451
Look. If you don't know what significance that the Quaran has for a Muslim then, simply put, you should not be asking. Certainly not here. Go read the Quaran and find out for yourself it will not bite you.
You say you are a Christian. Would you feel patronized if I asked you what significance the Bibel (yeah I know I have not spelled this wrong but hey who cares) has for you? Maybe you are a Christian for whom the Bibble has no significance?-
I think Norski knows darned well what's up. He's looking for any possible nuances he might have missed.
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Indeed.
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markstoneman,
That's about it.
polybore,
More specifically, I'm Catholic. Would I feel patronized if someone asked me of what significance the Bible was? No! I'd view the question as a wonderful opportunity.
And, since I am a Catholic, the Bible has great significance for me.
About your assertion, "If you don't know what significance that the Quaran has for a Muslim then, simply put, you should not be asking." That sounds as if you believe that if a person does not have a particular bit of knowledge, that person should not seek that knowledge. Maybe I misunderstood.
As for reading the Quran, I've got a copy by my elbow now. Reading it, however, would probably not answer my question - any more than reading the Bible would tell me what the Magisterium and tradition say about the book.
Let's say that I know enough to realize how ignorant I am. -
Polybore, you seem to be trying to make a point by misspelling 'Bible' (which, by the by, in this context is usually capitalized). I can assure you that no disrespect or ignorance is intended by Norski's spelling of 'Quran.'
Like with romanizing Japanese words there's more than one way to romanize the word that sounds, more or less, like koran. Here are just a few permutations I've found.
Quaran
Quran
Koran
Quaaran
Qur'an
Koran seems to be the spelling most often used in Germany. Quran or Qur'an seems to be the official spelling in American now.
www.ajr.org/Article.asp?id=4239
One must remember that Arabic uses a different alphabet than English speakers. It also includes sounds that don't exist in English. Therefore it doesn't always translate into our alphabet very well. -
That's really interesting about the spelling I would spell it Qu'ran, as I am sure that's how I was told to spell it in Religious Studies at High School. I hadn't realised there were so many different spellings.
And what on earth does that mean:
'Go read the Quaran and find out for yourself it will not bite you'
Reading it will not explain its significance to someone! The only person who can explain a significance is someone to whom the book has significance!!
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One thing I know about the Koran. Usually you don't place any other book on top of it. Do Christians have a problem with that for the Bible? I don't recall it being an issue.
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Remember, how I said that Islam didn't seem to be monolithic? Christianity is the same way, with more centuries to develop unique flavors.
The family I was brought up in (Protestant) was very careful about not having anything on top of a copy of the Bible.
My family is more relaxed - We have great respect for the book, but it's not always practical to have each copy on top. -
Well yeah, not monolithic. I blame my summer cold. (I'm usually the one making that point.)
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Looking for any opinion from me. I am a moslem, I believe. -
I have left my longest comment ever in your post..
LOL!-
Cashmere,
I'm reading your comment: Wow. It sure is long. And, informative. Thanks!
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Cashmere,
I think my response may be longer than your comment. Thanks again.
Now, maybe you can help me again.
I have a book, titled "The Koran," translated by George Sale. It's undated, but my guess is that it's a translation of Al-Qur'an done by a George Sale around the time of the American Revolution.
This particular copy was published by the A. L. Burt Company of New York. It's clearly a reprint. (The opening text is very different from what I assume is the original, available through Project Gutenberg - www.gutenberg.org/etext/7440 .)
Finally, my question: Are you at all familiar with this translation? Did George Sale do an adequate job of translating?
I'm treating this particular book with respect, by the way: as I'm sure my father did. It was in his collection before I got it. -
Honestly, I do not have a deep knowledge of the Qur'an..
Therefore, I can't really tell you what you want to know..
And I'm in no position to tell you which part is correct and which is not... ;P
But I've already replied to your comment on ur post.. -
cashmere,
Thanks again for your comments. And insights.
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I'm a muslim.. I think every Jew and Christian should read the Quran bcs there are so much verses which is mentioned about their religions.-
What's your favorite verse of the Torah? Or the Bible? Or The Epic of Gilgamesh?
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Hahahaha ... I have no favorite at all...
But i'd like to see some scientific evidence in Quran. Once i obsessed with ad-dahr (76:28).
"It is We Who created
them and made their joints strong; but if We please We can replace them with others like them through a change"
That verse is telling a strong evidence for Human Evolotion. Creation, mutation (saying "making their joints strong") and evolution. They are all at the same verse.-
I'd like to see any reputable scientific evidence in favor of any religion.
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In your dreams
I mean you'd better search it on your own...
It took my years to understand some of the verses.. -
Well, I came to the conclusion that no religion offers any proof and I therefore have no incentive to believe in any of them. Since I'm not easily intimidated, the "You'll go to hell" argument doesn't sway me. Instead, it provokes me into being anti-Christian.
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Ok..
I wrote it before in the thread called "god exits or blah...etc."
I am sure that everyone will at last reach their heavens whatever happens..
So i never say smtg like "you'll go to hell" but it may last a bit longer for some people.
P.S: Heaven and Hell are in figurative meaning of course. -
I never said you said anything about hell. I was rambling.
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We rambled and i remember once there was a man called Norski who wants some info from people like me..(though i never understand what he searches for)
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He's searching for anything that will validate his "omg catholics are repressed by teh evil atheists" idea.
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So i'd better be gone.
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That's up to you.
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Responding to this set of comments:
ophase
We rambled and i remember once there was a man called Norski who wants some info from people like me..(though i never understand what he searches for)
voodooKobra
He's searching for anything that will validate his "omg catholics are repressed by teh evil atheists" idea.
ophase, thanks for acknowledging my search for knowledge.
voodooKobra, I seriously doubt that you will believe this, but I do not have a "omg catholics are repressed by teh evil atheists" idea.
Anyone interested in my views on being a Catholic in America can check out a blog I started recently, "A Catholic Citizen in America" ( catholiccitizenamerica.blogspot.com/ ). -
Well, okay, evil atheist. PZ Myers is only one person.
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voodooKobra,
Okay, I understand the reference now.
You're thinking of my response to a college professor near here, who tore a few pages out of a Quran; had someone steal a consecrated Host from a Catholic church, then stuck a nail through it; tore a page or two from an athiest's book; threw the lot in the trash, and posted a photo of the result. (More at anotherwaronterrorblog.blogspot.com/2008/08/quran-eucharist-atheist-writing... .)
A Kobra ( www.kobrascorner.com/opine/wafers-donohue-catholic-league.php ) offered these comments to the online conversation:
"It's a fucking cracker (Myers' property). The other two are insignificant texts that HE owned.
"What's the problem?"
August 5, 2008 2:39 PM
"[To do otherwise is an offense and a rather grave one at that.]
"No, it's not even petty theft. Once it is given to the worshiper, a transaction has been completed and it becomes their property.
"If you want to call it an 'offense,' then you can't be speaking within the scope of US law."
August 6, 2008 5:26 PM
Those may not be your comments, but the name and the views are quite similar to yours.
As for my seeing professor M. as "evil," I don't. And, I have not. His acts are unacceptable, but that's what he did. I can't know what's going on in his mind.
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The Holy Qur'an contains the truth of our religion. It's the way of life that guide Muslim what to do and what should be avoided.
we know the fact that the ozone have 7 layer.About 1400 years ago, Muslim knew the fact that skies have 7 layer.. there are many other miracles of Al-Quran-
[truth of our religion]
Truth is not so subjective. If truth does not match reality, then it is not truth.
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People that understand Qur'an, practice wat it says,they will tell how the way of life should be in Islam. Islam is not like what western media Shows to the world.
As what Ophase said, about the Creator and Big Bang Theory, Muslim knew about this 1400 before others realize about it. -
wrong translation.. too direct, the translator did not understand and aware its real meaning. should give me another.
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I agree..
Wrong explanation! or superficial.. For example; Names refer to the names of Allah which is also one of the research subjects in islamic philosphy.. Meanings of these names are secret. -
What do you mean "too direct"?
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shah87,
ophase,
I've read Enlight's view of available translations, but I'd like your opinions, too.
About that George Sale translation: is my guess correct, that it may have been well-intentioned, but is not particularly useful for someone trying to understand the original?
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direct translation.
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A person needs to travel the Middle East and spend some time to understand the depths of Islam, most westerners don't have a clue. Moslems are very sensitive about the Quran. Although, the translation of the Quran that exists in the West are garbage.
The only accurate translations can be found in a small public library in Cairo that has been certified stamp from the Al Ahazra University, I was in Cairo and bought one, and read it, and the deeper context is completely different than the translations that are sold in the West.
Everybody in the Middle East will tell you that Allah is not a name. In Arabic, AL means "The" Lah defines as "God", Thus Allah means "The God". Even the Christians in the Middle East use the Term "The God". The word Inshalah defines as God willing, or If God wills. Notice there is no AL. Same with Humdulah, meaning God is Great.-
Enlight,
Thanks for that detailed comment.
I'm grateful for your identification of a particular library in Egypt as the only place in the world where useful translations may be found.
If true, it's rather frustrating, though.
I take it that my quest for knowledge of Islam and the Quran are futile, since I can't afford to travel to the Middle East, and am unlikely to develop an adequate working knowledge of Arabic in the time I have left?
I'm not questioning that it's necessary to live among people, to understand their beliefs.
Which brings up another point: I was under the impression that the vast majority of people in Indonesia followed Islam. I'm not likely to get there, either: but couldn't someone learn about Islam in that very Islamic country?
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I appreciate the feedback. Thanks for taking the time to comment.
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You might be able to find a certified translation of the Quran someplace. When I mentioned the subject to people in the Middle East they were very surprised that I even knew about the Certified Translations from the Al Azhar University (correct spelling).
The first three to four pages are filled with certified stamps, and the only accurate Quran's are the ones that are translated from a Moslem, not a westerner who translates the language. The quran I bought was translated from two Moslem professors in Saudi Arabia, in addition with foot notes explaining the excerpt of the context. A Quran with major detail.
The closest one I could find on the internet is this link www.powells.com/biblio/9780814727249?&PID=28081
I person can understand the depths of Islam without experiencing the culture, although the correct information on the history is essential. In addition, studying about Rumi, who wrote in Konya, Turkey is extremely important to grasp a deeper meaning of Islam through the branch of Sufi. Another branch is the Druze to look at.-
Enlight,
Thanks for the additional information. I'm noting that URL, and plan to pursue it.
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I have a lot of respect the Sufi teachings.
A correct translation of the Quran is very important. I live in Morocco and sometimes its hard to tell if things you are told about Islam are cultural or fact.
The Islam practiced here is very differnt from the Islam practiced in say Pakistan or the Islam practiced by a group like the Taliban.
Unfortunatly the Western Media love to grab hold of things that aren't really true Islam, and are interpretations made by some what fanatical Muslims taken out of context.
I think that you can see what ever you wish to see in the Quran depending on where you are coming from.
But just remember The Arabic word Islam means peace.-
XanthePat,
Thanks for sharing your experiences and insights.
You mentioned "Western Media" as grabbing things out of context, and distorting the image of what Islam really is, as a result.
In my opinion, the same thing happens with Christianity - and, probably, every religion. It's understandable, perhaps: a maniac with a torch is much more exciting than a community getting together to help out a mosque.
(On the other hand, this did get in the news, although it was rather low-key coverage: After three jerks burned a mosque in a (largely Christian) community in Tennessee, the town started helping Muslims re-build their community center. And, some of the churches were offering their meeting spaces to the Muslims, until enough money and resources were collected.)
( anotherwaronterrorblog.blogspot.com/2008/02/mosque-burned-in-tennessee-what... and anotherwaronterrorblog.blogspot.com/2008/02/jerks-burn-tennessee-mosque-chu... ) -
And don't forget how Hollywood consistently gets the whole yin-yang thing wrong. I don't know what else about Buddhism they get wrong since I'm not familiar with that religion, but they probably get quite a few bits off.
Kinda makes you wonder if the writers ever do the research.
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my opinion as a muslim is the professor act is not acceptable.it shows that he didn't respect other religion and leave a bad impression on him. as muslim even though we belief that our religion is the ultimate but it doesn't mean that we can belittle others. Quran is our holy book... why it is so important it speak only the truth. Only those who seek the truth can only accept Quran.. be it a muslim or non muslim. Wasalam (Peace on you)-
[he didn't respect other religion]
He doesn't have any undeserved respect for any idea. Not just religion. I'm the same way.
www.kobrascorner.com/opine/respect-this.php
People (or ideas) who demand respect deserve none. -
voodooKobra,
It occurs to be that, in a sense, you demand respect, too.
Or, perhaps not.
To paraphrase ezalahmad, peace on you both. -
ezalahmad,
As often happens, I find common ground in seemingly odd places. I am not coming at Truth from the same direction that you are, but we seem to share the idea of respect.
Of course, being human, I find it easier to respect people who are more or less similar to me, and living in a similar place. Like Ziarat, for example ( catholiccitizenamerica.blogspot.com/2008/10/earthquake-in-ziarat-i-have-to-... ). -
[It occurs to be that, in a sense, you demand respect, too.
Or, perhaps not.]
I never demand any amount of respect in excess of what I earn, and I make sure I earn it first. -
voodooKobra,
I like respect, no question about that. It's a very human thing.
And, we deserve it.
As for demanding respect, you raise an interesting point. I think everyone should 'demand respect' - and one of my personal, ongoing, struggles has been to extend respect to others.
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i'm a moslem..for me Qur'an is the one of His miracles
see chapter 74 verse 30 or 29
it is tells us about the miracle of magical number 19-
I'll be looking that up. Thanks.
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This I didn't know... and would like to find out...
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Many more information will you got if you start from reading and learned the Quran and ask to the moslem leader. eligible resource will make you got more information.
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