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NeoNazi Opens Fire on Holocaust Museum
Posted by Stillthinking • 6/10/09 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: holocaust museum shooting, racism
A well known, openly acknowledged 88 year old Neo-Nazi opened fire on a guard today at the Holocaust Museum in Washington DC. He was gunned down by other guards. Both the assassin and guard are in critical condition at area hospitals.
The gunman openly accused blacks and Jews of fabricating the Holocaust, controlling world banks and government, and destroying white Christian America.
So many people deny that racism still exists in America and point to the election of Barack Obama as evidence that minorities no longer need protection. I think this shooting is clear evidence that in fact, racism exists and continues to have a strong hold over people who believe that their way of life is being chipped away.
User Comments
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The difference between US and UK news reporting:
"A gunman armed with a rifle has shot and wounded a guard inside Washington DC's Holocaust museum before being wounded in turn, city police say.
The guard was seriously injured and the gunman is in critical condition, officials said after the incident which sowed panic among visitors.
Reports say the gunman is in his late 80s with links to white supremacists. "-
He didn't just have links to white supremacists, He was one of the leaders. He wrote books about how the Holocaust was a fabrication, spoke at Neo-Nazi gatherings, wrote a website about the Zionist conspiracy. I think he was trying to set himself up as a martyr for his Nazi cause and try to inspire other Neo-Nazis to do the same.
Neo-nazis have been clamoring for a race war for decades and the election of a mixed race President seems to be the catalyst for increased racial violence. -
The sin of spin.
It is strange how things get reported so differently. -
ah, but as his identity hasn't been confirmed the BBC tend not to give out that kind of information because it riles people up before they have evidence.
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What difference does it make how the UK reported it versus how the US reported it? He was still a fascist, ultra-conservative, Jew and minority hating a-hole.
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chill out. I was just remarking on what I thought was an interesting point...
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Sorry, I was going off on a tangent.
It is still terrible thing, and it's crazy that there are these neo-nazis'.
Watching 'ross kemp on gangs', theres neo-nazi groups that do military training, ready for the takeover -
This gets me worked up. I hate that this country still has so much of this kind BS floating around.
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If it makes you feel any better we are electing nazis...literally! The founder of the BNP said in 1993 "Mein Kampf is my bible"
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Is it that people in the UK were just not informed enough about the BNP and voted for the people with the most familiar faces and names? That is a tactic that white supremacists use here in the US knowing that most people who are uninformed about the issues or candidates are more likely to vote for a white face and an Anglo sounding name.
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no, it's that only 30% of the population bothered to vote, and the racists were the ones who could be bothered.
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Yeah, the BNP really arent familiar faces. You'd really have to go out of your way to vote BNP, it's not like they're a common party, with hidden agendas.
They want everyone but whites OUT, and theyre quite open about it. -
This is quite disturbing as now they have actual influence on policy. Of course, Trent Lott is still a senator and he supports racial segregation.
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@stillthinking
"fascist, ultra-conservative"
Fascists are the Far Left.
Conservatives are the Right.
Fascists and conservatives are not the same thing or near the same thing.
As more details have come out in the hours since the murder it becomes more obvious that this murderer was a person of the Left. -
You're a moron.
Fascism is far right ideology. Communism is far left. Stop listening to talk radio and take some history classes. Hitler and Mussolini were fascists and far right. -
@stillthinking
Hitler was a National Socialist.
Mussolini was a Fascist.
Supposing you are correct that fascism is to the Right, then surely Mussolini and FDR would have nothing in common and there would be no mutual admiration for each other.
Correct?
Roger Shaw, the respected Leftist writer and defender, recognized FDR and Mussolini as both being fascist.
Mussolini even offered his opinion of FDR's book, 'Looking Forward'.
He said, "Reminiscent of Fascism is the principle that the state no longer leaves the economy to its own devices.... Without question, the mood accompanying this sea change resembles that of Fascism."
The Nazi paper, which once proclaimed Hitler 'man of the year' noted the following of FDR's book:
1)Roosevelt's adoption of National Socialist strains of thought in his economic and social policies
2)the development toward an authoritarian state
3)demand that collective good be put before individual self-interest
These were not condemnations of the FDR book, these were remarks of praise.
The examples are endless.
It is you who need to learn your history.
The sad part is, this is recent history of which you are so very ignorant.
The fact that you do not understand the difference between Left and Right is also fairly sad.
Next time, before you insult, perhaps you should actually know what you are speaking of.
The reason you believe that Fascist are to the Right and Communism is to the Left is because you simply have never bothered to actually look at the things which you have been taught.
You of course have a perfect right to be lazy.
I however prefer to listen to what I am taught and then either confirm or deny the information I was provided.
Again, the nutbar who murdered the guard at the Holocaust Museum was a person of the Left.
I am glad that what took place in Washington D.C. angers you and brings out such passion in you. It would be nice to see that in more people when something like this takes place.
But when something like this does take place it is important to know who the enemy is and from what camp he has come from.
You don't know your enemy.
You don't know from what direction they are going to attack the next time they come.
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An 88 year old Neo-Nazi? And old New-Nazi?
And what, exactly, is a "Neo" Nazi? What differentiates a New from Old Nazi?-
Well, I guess he was old enough to have actually been an original Nazi.
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He is Old school lol,
Did he roll up in a wheel chair ?
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It'll be nice when we stop labeling people "African-American" or "Jewish American" or "Christian American" and just call us all what we are at a basic level: "Americans."
It'll also be nice when we stop labeling people "racist" or "antisemite" or "Neo-Nazi" and just call them all what they are at a basic level: "assholes."-
I just did call him an a-hole, but racist, antisemite, neo-nazi is a description that he probably wouldn't have found offensive.
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@Bullgrit
It'll be nice when we stop labeling people "African-American" or "Jewish American" or "Christian American" and just call us all what we are at a basic level: "Americans."
Wouldn't the basic level be human or people? American is still a label or a way to classify a group of people.
Personally I don't see a problem with the labels it's really the associations and assumptions we make about people based on the labels. -
"Wouldn't the basic level be human or people? American is still a label or a way to classify a group of people."
Nah. Everyone is either Americans or not-yet-Americans ;-) Saying "people" is like saying "mammal" or "Earthling" -- too broad. -
@bullgrit: in that case, you would be denying african-americans, asian-americans, muslim-americans, and so forth the heritage that they are entitled to be proud of, which essentially amounts to nothing more than racism.
the anxiety for homogeneity is the root of the problem; by your suggestion, you make yourself out to be no better than those you call assholes. -
For the record, I'm being facetious, above.
But it's an ironic concept you bring up. If we don't identify people by their differences, we're racist.
Introducing, "This is my friend Mike," is denying his proud heritage, and is racist.
The introduction should be, "This is my African-American, Muslim friend Mike."? -
judging by the silliness of your latter proposition, i'll simply assume you're being facetious again.
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Mostly ;-)
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On the same week that the BNP had two MEPs elected as well. This is a bad week for the remainder of the Greatest Generation.
At the Battle of Jutland during the First World War, Admiral Jellicoe was heard to remark, "There must be something wrong with our bloody ships today."
I echo the sentiment, though suitably altered for the context.-
Sociologists and historians have said that racism, social unrest, and nationalism tend to rise during economic downturns. Darn it, they're right again.
Here I was hoping that all the right wingers in this country were just full of hot air. I was wrong. They're actually dangerous. -
@Still
It's because cheap demagogues thrive in an atmosphere in which the public is looking for easy answers. Why are we in a recession, for example - the real answer is complex, the easy answer is to blame someone who doesn't look like you. -
Demagogues and megalomaniacs. You're right. That is what was evidenced by video of Republican rallies during the presidential campaign, lots of fear mongering. Though admirably, John McCain spoke out on multiple occasions against racist remarks made by his followers.
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There will always be racism and discrimination. Always. It has always existed and it always will exist. Unfortunately.
Racism is on the decline, though, in the U.S. -- and Obama's election was a hugely positive influence. Much more worrisome (to my way of thinking) is the classism that is currently separating people. That's much more damaging at this point, imo.-
I think you know how I feel about classism in the US. I agree that racism among the general populace is on the decline, but the true believers are getting more devious, more desperate, and more agitated everyday.
Racists are this country's most dangerous domestic terrorists. Let's not forget Oklahoma City. Today's attack was a terrorist attack. -
Believe me, you are preaching to the choir here, ST. When I was an undergraduate, I did my honor's thesis on women in right wing extremist groups.
I traveled all over Montana, Idaho, Washington, and Wyoming interviewing women in some of the extreme militia groups--and also in the Aryan Nation and KKK.
I was only able to get interviews with them because I was working with a professor from the U of M and he had done quite a bit of research on them. As it was, the Aryan Nation compound almost turned us away because I was a 'mud person.'
Sometimes, when I was talking to the women, I would have to run into the bathroom and just freak out for a minute or two. They were that scary.
I loved doing that research though--and I would love to study them some more at some point. -
I get so scared reading about that kind of stuff. As an Asian woman, I am terrified of people who allow hate and ignorance to be the guiding motives of their lives. When you embrace hate as your doctrine, you are really capable of extreme violence.
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C'mon, get to the page of Manchurian candidates and Hegelian dialectics, especially concerning Oklo. -
That's exactly right.
What was most scary was how normal they seemed UNLESS they were talking about their hatred of virtually everyone who is non-white.
Although they ended up liking me (at Aryan Nation), which was interesting. They actually invited me back to their parade (although I chose not to go since I was worried they might be building a cross in my honor . . . ).
Scary stuff, indeed. -
@harveyavatar
I am guessing you don't understand how terrifying it is to be targeted for your race. I do.
The FBI and Homeland security consider white supremacists to be one of the most dangerous domestic terrorism threats and racial motivated attacks are on the rise. -
@ST. I understand it too (being of Egyptian heritage)--and you are absolutely right.
It's terrifying. -
I think Harvey finds this to be a little paranoid. I do not find it to be paranoid. The crazies are getting crazier and what was this shooting if not an attempt to go out in a blaze of glory and inspire your insane, fear stoked, and angry followers!
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Anyone who has experienced irrational hatred based on their ethnicity or race understands.
Racists are zealots--and zealots are crazy. And crazy people are damn scary. Nuff said.
And they have gotten a whole lot more steam with Obama in power. As you said, these types of incidents are on the major increase. For most of America, racism is on the decline--but for those hate groups, they have gotten their second wind. -
@Stillthinking,
No, I'm not saying that at all. I don't know as much. You may have quite valid reasons to fear that. However, given the long history of false flags operations and deployment of mind-controlled assasins (aka Manchurian candidates), I admit I first tend to think these type of events may be orchestrated at a much higher level. For example, Oklohoma enabled to pass some new laws restricting liberties (which would not have passed otherwise). Cui bono?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=1PIuxFxbqsI
Further, many of these extremist groups seem to be counter-operations to one degree or another. Interestingly, the white supremacist groups had no interest in evaluating the glaring holes in the official 911 conspiracy theory.
Same in Europe, a few years ago they wanted to arrest the leaders of nazi groups in Germany, but had to back off whem it was revealed they were undercover.
The deception goes deep. -
This is what I am talking about as far as the internet breeding conspiracy theories that prey on the gullible.
Do you really think that the government had any hand in killing hundreds of civilians and government agents in Oklahoma city. What is the simpler explanation, a vast government conspiracy to murder their own agents or a domestic terrorist attack from a group of highly disenfranchised, white supremacists? You're not American, you don't understand just how inflamed these people are.
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Exactly right Melinda. What I also find to be such a concern, is that there are now thousands of people who read conspiracy theories online and believe them. These kind of gullible people are ripe for recruitment into movements such as white supremacy.
What I worry about is that with the death of the last remaining Holocaust survivors and survivors of the Japanese internment camps, we are going to experience a kind of national amnesia as to history and race.-
Yes--and that is definitely a negative as far as Obama's election goes. This pushed some people over the edge to white supremacy--at least to join groups. And there is always more power in numbers.
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Add the recession into the mix and you have the perfect storm.
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Yes, that too.
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You do realize "conspiracy theory" is a rhetorical figure of speech coined by the Tavistock Institute of Human relations in the 1960s?
DO you think it to be a coincidence Bill Cooper was gunned down in late 2001?
www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zy4EyBstOsA
Or that Representative's Larry McDonald's plane was shot down a few weeks after he warned of the one world government plan of the CFR - on Crossfire.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=7PAJJ5eRvQw
That would make you a "coincidence theorist" ;-)
That said there is some deception mixed with a lot of truth in the
so called "truth movement". Most of these groups are imo "Cointelpro". -
Occam's Razor.
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Do you think that if what children learn up to college or high school changes, would it make a difference in issues such as racism and religious extremism? I was thinking of more philosophy in class rooms, Less "we're the best country in the world" or "our religion is the right one"...don't you think?-
I think less ethnocentrism and just more knowledge of other cultures and countries would be very helpful.
Most Americans know very little about any other country other than their own. -
Absolutely! I actually really support a more multinational approach to education that includes ethics, philosophy and world religions. I only hesitate as far religion goes because there needs to be a safe guard against proselytizing.
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Same thing with the media, they should talk less about terrorists and extremists around the world and give an idea about the actual people living there.
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Watch the following video - and come back:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=VKp7HDv01hk
Ready?
While education helps limit the influence of fascists, the problem is that so long as there are inadequate little gits, there will always be extremists who latch on to ideologies in order to mask their personal inadequacies. Hitler was a talentless hack of an artist who only had one testicle. Goebbels was a club footed little sack of excrement. Himmler was a reedy, nerdy chicken farmer who had delusions about the sanctity of German blood. As Mr. Cleese points out, extremism makes people feel good. Actually doing anything useful is boring, dull and requires thinking - not the strong point of the paper hanging layabout who got to run Germany.
These people need to be marginalised, and never let near the machinery of the state. I think Homeland Security is absolutely right to watch them - the problem is that it's never going to be foolproof and it will never catch the occasional extremist who believes in conspiracy theories because even his cat left him. -
I loved the video, and the psychological problems of the extremists might be a factor, but I think people who are extremists for reasons like that are a minority, It's true extremism gives you a goal and something to fight for, but the same energy can be given to something else, if people are educated to solve problems (and real problems not just math problems) it would sure make a huge difference, even if it may not end extremism.
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That is what is so insidious about white supremacists. They have gotten more devious. And the Republicans have been inadvertently assisting their cause by playing to people's worst fears for the past 20 years.
Do I need to remind people about one of the leading figures in the Republican National Committee Chip Saltsman distributed CD's called "We Hate America" full of homemade music featuring such racist and vile tunes as "Barack the Magic Negro" and the "Star Spanglish Banner"?
www.huffingtonpost.com/matthew-filipowicz/chip-barack-the-magic-neg_b_15467...
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The museum security guard just died.
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That is very sad, he's the innocent one
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That is always what happens with terrorist attacks. Innocent people die.
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I just heard that on the news. My heart goes out to his family.
People can be so uplifting at times . . . and so disappointing at times.
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For white people to realize that racism exists, all they need to do is tell jokes with other white people
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That's a racist joke in and of itself.
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I really think that the media and the government would call this what it is: a terrorist attack.
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totally agree.
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Ironically enough, he is a WWII vet - fighting against Hitler whom he later glorified in his writings. (Stating on his blog and in his books about how great a leader Hitler was, and how the "Jew people" messed everything up).
What isn't clear at the moment is his motivation (beyond the obvious). As it turns out, he has a criminal record, but nothing of the shooting to kill variety.
Why now? Why when he is nearing the end of his life? And why did he have a list of other places with him?
So far, the stories have not turned anything up about the why's and how come's.
ANother good question - how on Earth did a person get through DC with a shotgun/rifle?
What, no one noticed?-
He's 88 and I'm sure the election of Barack Obama put him over the edge. I wouldn't be surprised if the police found some sort of manifesto.
I'm sure people noticed and were too scared to stop him.
His criminal history includes invading the Federal Reserve with 2 guns and a bomb. I think that qualifies as the shoot and kill variety of criminal. -
he probably carried it in his car, till he got there. Haven't heard the details
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yep, apparently he double parked almost right outside the entrance.
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Maybe he did it BECAUSE he was nearing the end of his life...
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It's sad, and senseless
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It is tragic and senseless, not just for the loss of life, but because he could have so easily hit dozens of other people. The museum was apparently very crowded with summer crowds.
We need to call this what it is: terrorism.
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They should bury his carcass in an unmarked grave.
Considering the 16 thousand or so fire arm homicides in the US a year. It is tempting to think that if the US government was really concerned about the security of their citizens they would recall the military to defend US citizens from each other.-
I don't want our military interfering with our daily lives. I value our freedoms too much.
I just wish people would open their eyes and realize our enemies at home come in many different skin colors. Some of the most dangerous ones are white and Christian, and I am referring to not just the ones with guns, but the ones with websites, radio shows and devoted followers. -
hey polybore! we get a higher ranking in that than we do Democracy or Human Developement... oh wait
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Are you saying the Holocaust didn't really happen?
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@1401
You are a demonstration as to how hatred can blind a person even to documented history.
How do you have time to post on BC right now anyway?
Aren't you busy with your re-election campaign in Iran Mr. Ahmadinejad? -
i believe so...
i have met a man still alive that was in auschwitz, he has to deal with that everyday of his life because he is constantly reminded by his number which will not be removed because it would cause further pain to such an old man
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@harveyavatar
ditto: using conspiracy theory, just makes people think all is well on the home front. They see what they want to see, and even skip over the facts.
I am still amazed how people who talk about such things like the Holocaust, and never mention that a man who helped finance those camps had his son and grand son go on and become presidents of this country. Those facts are always over looked.
"The government has the right to lie to the people for the good of the nation"
-Plato-
one can also add, television is a powerful hypnotic tool (when you add up the hours).
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When I read about this last night, all I could say was, "What a horrible person." I'd like to believe that he suffered from mental illness that led him to such irrational beliefs and actions but he may be one of those people that force me to confront the fact that not everyone is, at the root, a good person. -
Consider it an anecdote, or not, how can a leader of the American nazi Party in the 1970s - Frank Collins/Cohen/Joseph - and convicted pedophile, then go on to become an acclaimed author, editor, and international bon vivant?
Stokie Archive
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ThP8jAr9gb4
www.jerrypippin.com/Ancient_Mysteries_On_Demand_Frank _Joseph.htm
"The Many Faces of Frank Collin."
www.flavinscorner.com/collin.htm-
Harvey,
You are ridiculous in your pursuit of conspiracy theories.
Frank Collins/Cohen is a man with deep psychological issues and represents the most insidious face of the Neo-Nazi movement, the one that hides under a respectable, reformed exterior.
I don't understand what you are trying to prove or disprove with this response. I think that they are things in this world we should fear, but I don't believe in convoluted conspiracy theories.
Get out your tin hats everyone. -
Stillthinking,
You are ridiculous in your pursuit of coincidence theories.
Get out your fin hats everyone.
Seriously, you made me laugh with the "deep psychological issues" explanation
What I suggest here, is not to take everything at face value. -
Stop trying to derail this discussion.
Frank Collin's father was Jewish. His real name was Frank Cohen. You're telling me that a man who led the Neo-Nazi movement in the 70's but was secretly half-Jewish didn't have deep psychological issues? You're telling me that a convicted pedophile didn't have deep psychological issues?
I hate conspiracy theorists. They spend so much time looking for hidden truths and connections that they completely lose sight of the basic facts.
The basic facts are DOMESTIC TERRORIST GROUPS OPERATING FROM WHITE SUPREMACIST IDEOLOGY ARE REAL and that they are some of the most dangerous threats to the safety of the average citizen. You don't live here. You don't understand race relations here. You don't get it.
You seem to think the internet only tells the truth. If that's the case, I've got a bridge I'd like to sell you. -
I'm saying if you believe Frank Collins became a leader of the nazi party because of "deep psychological issues", then you are major out to lunch. Just as the high ranking "zionist" nazis in Germany did not join because of "deep issues" - see Dieter Bronder's (a Jewish teacher) 1960s book - "Bevor Hitler Kam" - for the details.
Nazis have been tracked down around the globe and here we have an ex leader of the American nazi party who becomes a mainstream author and editor. Get a clue! lol
For the record, I do not consider this to be a Jewish thing, but the brainchild of an apocalyptic cult (which can more or less be ignored if it is limited to an enclace in Montana, but which has very different consequences if the members of the cult are in controlling positions across the planet).
And what you buy as being conspiracy theory can mostly quite easily be shown to be FACT - the Federal Reserve scam, for one, is as far as a theory as it gets. In fact, MUCH OF THIS IS OUT IN THE OPEN. What was considered CT a few months ago (plans for a one world currency, a one world government, etc) are now being discussed IN THE OPEN.
This has nothing to do with the Internet. WEATHER and "MIND CONTROL" via chemtrails and cell towers are in your sky, they are also in official documents and patents. I'm not the one who shoud be stepping out here!
To be frank, this museum attack reeks of psyop. Look into MK Ultra. Bill Clinton had to apologize for that in the name of the US. You can believe the programme is still in effet or not.
As to the point you made on these groups, I addressed that above.
Much to be said, but I don't see the point in having a monologue. Nuff time spent on this. -
"You don't live here. You don't understand race relations here. You don't get it."
wow... -
I do not cease to be amazed that an intelligent (usually not coarse) person like you, is full on oblivious to the propaganda. As I said, I don't see the point in discussing this further.
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To all the idiots who listen to conservative talk radio and don't understand the political spectrum. FASCISM is not a leftist doctrine.
Communism --> Socialism --> Liberalism --> Center --> Conservatism --> Fascism
Read it from left to right.
Hitler, Franco, Mussolini all fall to the far right.
Stalin, Kim Jung Il, and Castro all fall to the far left.
Yes, there is tyranny on both ends of the spectrum but get your history right.
If I hear one more moron getting this wrong my head is going to explode.
You people who listen to Rush and Glenn Beck and went to tea parties. You know you sound as a-holes on TV comparing our liberal democratic government to fascism. You just sound like ignorant blind followers.-
You believe the spectrum you provided because that is what you have been taught. The vast majority of people who accept such a spectrum have not bothered to confirm or deny the things which they were taught.
I do listen to talk radio, I believe the things I believe independent of talk radio and came to such conclusions previous to a Rush Limbaugh or Glenn Beck even being on my radar screen.
I also didn't go to a Tea Party, rather myself and another person, together, threw one of the most successful in the nation on April 15th.
How do the tea parties weigh into this?
Are we partly responsible for this mad mans murderous act?
The fact is fascism is of the Left.
Ask FDR, hell ask his wife.
Monarchy doesn't really belong because it takes many persons to make a monarchy work. That being so, then a monarchy cannot truly exist.
Anarchy also doesn't fit well because it is always a temporary situation and transitional and obviously not a government.
An accurate spectrum shows 100% governmental power on the far Left and zero governmental power on the far Right.
That being the absolute fact of the matter, Fascism is in fact of the Left.
We [America] by the way were formed as a Republic.
It is only in a Republic that the Constitution may function in the way it was meant to and in that way it is the way we [American citizens] can experience the most freedom.
True individual freedom.
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Racism is resurfacing with a vengeance, and it is frightening.-
Whereas I believe that most people are fair minded, I am terrified of the few that are unstable, ignorant and angry enough to destroy the peace.
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ANother concern that this incident brings to light is the recent upswing in enrollment/activities of white supremecist groups such as the KKK, IKK, and various affiliate groups.
Politically speaking they have laid low for the most part until recently. There have been reports of KKK and IKK sponsered gun shows where the gun laws may or may not have been fully respected, and so many of the guns are not traceable - and the groups are stocking up on firearms.
In a recent interview/biography of he IKK, they stated they are stocking up their compound for the imminent race wars to come, and hope to educate others as to the sanctity of the white race - although their main statement was that they are a peaceful group that doe snot promote or condone violence, their main compound is set up like a military base, complete with armed guards and make shift schools for white supremecy and support of a race war to declare racial dominance.
There may be a push to try and start race wars - or the propaganda may simply be reaching the ears and finally affecting the mentally unstable enough so that they have begun to act violently. This incident may be like a vent - small outbursts that will either quell the "movement" or may in turn fuel it.
It's cause for concern indeed.-
Yes, and these groups are using the internet to fuel conspiracy theories like Holocaust denial. They are counting on the fact that the last remaining Holocaust survivors are dying of old age and that the veterans of WW2 are fading out as well.
These groups thrive on stoking fear and the more Republicans try to stoke fear into their base, the more they are feeding these groups.
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The Roman Empire didn’t last a thousand years with liberal thinking.-
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Yeah, I don't get it either. I think he's saying that fascism is preferable to democracy.
Hey Fred in case you missed it: I am Asian and a liberal. If that offends you, please go away and hide in your compound polishing your guns. -
Surely he can't be saying that?!
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The Roman Empire was a fascist state. That is exactly what he is saying.
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erm...I really don't think the term 'fascist' is applicable to Ancient Rome...
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Yes it is. You can call it a monarchy if you want, but monarchies are at heart, fascist.
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It's an anachronism to refer to ancient Rome as a fascist state when the concept is really a twentieth century one. It's misleading and inaccurate.
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What Fred was referring to is the absolute control that the Roman Empire exerted over it's populace. He is implying that a liberal government is weak and will lead to its downfall.
I am having a really crappy day and have very little patience for semantics right now. -
You don't know what Fred was saying, you're guessing. And I'm not picking at what you said because you used the wrong word, I'm doing it because you are making a sweeping generalisation that is wrong. The Roman Empire was different under the Republic and under the Emperors, and it was different under every emperor and in every century and in every part of the Empire. I don't think 'absolute control' was ever exerted over the inhabitants of the Empire and I don't think that the term 'fascist' was ever applicable.
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Then Fred was the one who is wrong in his analogy.
I'm leaving for the day. I am getting too worked up and angry. I found out my cat is dying this morning and quite frankly, I can't deal with the bickering.
Siuil, you are picking on the semantics as the Roman Empire was essentially run by absolute tyrants. I don't think Fred was breaking it down by individual emperors nor was he referring to the Republic. The republic died when Julius Caesar became the first emperor of Rome. -
I'm sorry about your cat but stop taking it out on everyone else.
And just to be that extra bit annoying...Julius Caesar wasn't ever Roman Emperor, he was Dictator. The first Roman Emperor was Augustus. The Roman Empire was not run by tyrants, and you don't know what you are talking about.
We don't actually know what point Fred was trying to make, we'll have to wait and see if he comes back to see if your guess was right. -
Actually Fascism is a Roman concept and was symbolised by an axe bound together by sticks (The fasces, from where the word comes from) The axe was meant to be the central state power or dictator and the sticks the populous.
I grant you that what we mean today as fascism is slightly different because it incorporates the power of corporations along with a central dictator figure but they are essentially the same things. -
20th C fascists borrowed ancient symbols like eagles and salutes and swastikas but that doesn't mean the symbols in their original context had any fascist connotations.
There isn't an absolute definition of fascism, but you really can't apply what is actually a modern concept to the ancient world. It's the same as talking about ancient homosexuality. -
The early twentieth century version of fascism was entirely based on an "idealised" Roman version of what Mussolini thought fascism was.
So you can't really say that just because they borrowed all the trappings it wasn't the same thing. If we can claim democracy has a direct descent from ancient Athens then surely we can claim the same for fascism's descent from Rome.
If I sleep with a man two thousand years ago or yesterday it don't make it a different act just because manners and attitudes have changed it is still the same act.
You can apply ancient concepts to the modern world because people have always done this and always will, even the Roman's looked back to ancient Greece and tried to ape it. -
This is a really pointless discussion because we don't have the same knowledge base.
(no, I'm not trying to patronise you, but on this subject I do seem to know more than you and I don't have the time or energy to explain Foucault to you) -
Don't be a twat all your life Sil.
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Back atcha
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It just goes to show you, hate still exists in this world. Better watch our backs! -
One old fart with old world ideas kills one person and people are in a world wind. Here (NY) this week I think we lost 6 men women and children to drunk drivers. I don't know if they were Skin Heads, Blacks, Ginny's, Mick's - you get the point they were drunk drivers, killers. I think that clan is stronger than any KKK group out there.
But, like I said, people like to indulge in mental terror.-
I have to respectfully disagree with you on this. There is a huge difference between a hate crime which is a message crime attached to an ideology with specific groups and the tragic consequences of idiots who drink and drive. There has been an upsurge in memberships in hate groups and seething anger, so it isn't just about this old fart, but what he represents.
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He did apparently plan other attacks:
www.splcenter.org/blog/
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Wow - clearly a lot of passion on this thread. I am from Northern Ireland, and people being shot because of their perceived opinions on nationality, religion and politics has been a way of life here for all of us for many years. And continues to be - no matter what else may be reported throughout the world about our "Peace".
Some of us have been talking on another thread about discrimination. I have said that I think anyone can have attitudes that are potentially discriminatory - and as illustrated by this news story, potentially dangerous, even fatal - to others. That canot be policed. And maybe should not be judged either. But it is taking ACTION on those attitudes that is the problem.
The motivation is irrelevant. When someone choses to SAY something or DO something - such as drive when drunk, or get trigger happy, or JOIN some extremist group - THAT attitude in action in my view is discrimination. And I think anyone anywhere in the world who tries to claim that doesn't exist is either completely deluded or a liar.-
Again I just have to respectfully disagree. A choice to drink and drive is not about being part of an ideology of hate, or wanting to hurt anyone, or target anyone. If someone does get hurt as a result ofdrinking and driving it is a consequence of their actions, not a choice to hurt or kill. Not in the same category as belonging to a group or clinging to an ideology of hatred and then choosing to target a group or an individual to hurt.
Motivation is not irrelevant at all, it requires a different approach to deal with it socially, politically and legally.
And as someone who has lived through the terror of the IRA during my teens in London, I don't feel deluded or incapable of recognizing the difference. -
@jafabrit - I may not have said this right, because I wasn't suggesting that anyone who disagrees with me is deluded at all, rather that anyone who denies such attitudes and actions still exist is deluded, as that denial was referred to in the OP re racism.
And I accept completely that someone who chooses to get into a car drunk with no regard for the consequences to others is doing something different to someone who deliberately targets another person or group. But both of them are chosing to act on something they believe is ok to do, and I believe that is not uncommon whether it is deliberate discrimination or not. Both actions were referred to earlier in the thread, which was why I used those examples. I accept both are different, but I think both still exist and both are wrong. -
thanks alcomum, I see what you mean.
I don't agree that a drunk drivers thinking is on the same level as a racist. Drunk drivers are not intending to hurt anyone, they just think they're not too drunk to drive.Irresponsibility doesn't compare to racist intent to hurt,or kill. But yes both are wrong, I can agree with you on that.
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@jafabrit thank you for that. And as you say there should be different ways of dealing with these things legally etc. In law, intent and recklessness are different to cover that. In theory anyway...
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Doesn't a drunk have hate for some one to become a drunk to begin with?
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I don't think I was driven by hate to drink. Other issues, yes. But not hatrid. Can't speak for others tho.
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@jafabrit
What is a hate crime?
you cut me off on the road I hate you! You hurt my family I hate you!
You are a Jew, I hate you! You cut me out of my of my vig I hate you!
Hate is an excuse to justify anger, if you're mad because some one does not follow you're beliefs, than you're an a a-hole, and that is where hate crimes develop from. I believe in short and you believe in tall. Nothing more nothing less.
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