Discussions
Religion = Happiness?
Posted by MylissaAriana • 2/18/09 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: happiness, religion
Does religion make people more happy?
According to a study, yes...
Personally, I'm not so sure. While it can help on the day to day happiness levels, on a global scale its got a pretty bad track record!
What do you think?
news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/7302609.stm
mylissa-nemeton.blogspot.com/2009/02/religion-happiness.html
User Comments
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[Does religion make people more happy?]
Ignorance is bliss.
[While it can help on the day to day happiness levels, on a global scale its got a pretty bad track record!]
Delusional happiness.-
Denial is a wonderful thing!
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It's a river in Egypt
(sorry - couldn't help myself :o ) -
Your few words really do say it all, vdK. Opiates? local happiness, hardship for those near, and globally. However, one's private beliefs have only a private effect until the manipulators step in and use the power gained by creating big groups and pretending that these are threatened by other big groups. -
svelmoe, I was waiting to see who would say it!
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Don't know, I do believe prayer has a beneficial effect on the etheric makeup.-
Do you believe this benefit is from people believing that someone is there to answer it, or from actual answers given to these people? Does the state of the world suggest prayer is effective? Is not mankind under punishment for straying from the true path. Personally it makes me feel insincere just asking such questions.
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i believe that all religions, in their own right, are meant to spread peace and happiness. but people have misused it and even misinterpreted it resulting in making religion create a lot of problems for society, which include violence, hatred, divisions, and discrimination.
however, there have been a number of psychological studies that show that religious people are well adjusted and are less stressful. they also cope in a better way when it comes to illness. so, in that case religion in giving happiness to people.
i think that it can be said that individually religion gives happiness, but as you said globally or from a larger perspective religion has become a cause for a lot of social evils.-
Since when was it EVER in the best interest of the people when authority has deemed it so? Answer: Never. -
if you read religious scriptures then you will find that the basic teachings of all religions is to spread happiness. the practices of each religion may be different, but the goals are the same. only religious people who think that religion is their authority have lead to causing many problems.
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The scriptures are contradictions to themselves, why would I ever give a s*** what they say. I'm sorry bro, I'm all for happiness, but it doesnt take religion to do that. A simple understanding of ethics from our great thinkers, like Kant, is enough for me. They never get any credit. But hand someone a book thats 'the word of God' and people go nuts over it. Did you even read it? How the hell can you even listen to any of it. Total, utter non-sense.
If it was written today, it wouldn't even have a chance of getting published. That's how stupid it is. -
@ rogue ... there's no use of talking to people like u ... its just a big waste of time. u havent even understood wat i have said. all u want to do is just argue without even thinking and knowing that im saying almost the same thing. so its better that u just shut the hell up ... think watver u want to, bcoz im not at all interseted in talking with insane ppl like u.
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1)I'd like to see these studies; do you have them, or links to them? If they exist, I'd imagine that the reason people of religious faith are proving to be better adjusted is simply because, with 90% of the world's population being religious, it's easier to feel at home when you believe in some form of higher power.
"He who hides well, lives well" -Ovid.
2)Most of the monotheistic scriptures (the bible, the qu'ran, the torah) are so littered with terrible suggestions and plain bad moral guidance that they don't need to be misinterpreted to have devastating effects. This is a common philosophy amongst religious moderates, but you don't get to pick and choose which bits you believe and which you don't; the religion is either good in it's entirety or not. -
@ jfinn1319 ... no, i dont have any links bcoz i have read about those studies in newspapers and journals. some of those studies have been done in harvard university. but u're right and this is what the explanations have been given for those findings.
its not that religion gives some kind of spiritual power that makes them happy. its just the belief that they are following their faith properly and that God is taking care of them gives them a sense of wellbeing. -
Ah, but that's not what I'm getting at. What I'm saying is that communal belief breeds happiness. When you're surrounded by like minded people, you tend to be more content and well adjusted then when you're in an adversarial situation.
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yeah, thats another perspective and quite possible. but there are both the things. there are ppl who experience contentment in simply following their own beliefs and on the other hand there are people who experience contentment in their communal beliefs.
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jfinn, I agree that when you're in a 'comfortable' situation, surrounded by people who are not antagonistic, its a lot easier to be happy, whether thats a 'religious' situation or not.
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Speaking as a christian myself, i've to say religion can be used as a platform to blow your own trumpet. That is not very healthy and that is unbecoming.-
So I am the only Muslim speaking here says yes. but sometimes people around do practice religion using the cultural value. Its hard when I say I don't want to be that way but people just did not want to understand. -
So in other words, you are saying:
Sometimes a certain group of people practice a certain religion, only because of it's historical identity with its culture ? -
but if blowing your own trumpet makes you happy...?!
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Well, then i would say that is a very very shallow emotional manifestation of one's faith. For the most part.
It isn't wrong to express genuine joy and testify yourself as an example of how your faith has changed you for the better, but the more realistic truthful message you communicate to others about your faith, is your everyday actions and how you deal with yourself and your mistakes.
I deal with my own spiritual issues almost all the time, even more so at the times i am alone, it's tiring. People do notice things about you everyday, even if they can't decipher what it really is in its true nature.
My two cents worth. -
I do actually completely agree with you. The best advertisement for a religion is how its followers act in their day-to-day lives, not how loudly they can shout or how well they can convince you of their 'turth'.
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I would say that followers of a certain faith can be categorized into these catagories:
Believers who had experienced genuine change
Believers who are still experiencing changes in their lives
Believers who do not want to change
Believers who give lip service
Believers who have become disillusioned
Believers who see their faith as a way out of their lives, an escape
Believers who need a platform to boost their ego
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A study suggests that studies about the correlation between religion and happiness are stupid.
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I do agree slightly on your comment.
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one study claiming that all other studies are stupid does not make any sense. you can't deny the number of other studies that show that religious people are better adjusted.
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rogue, do you have a hyperlink to an academic website that backs up your comment on the study you mentioned ? I'm curious to know.
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No, its a study I just conducted by myself, with no sources, no proof. Why should I give proof to something that is solely based on faith and non-facts. I can say anything to rebute religion and the Bible because the Bible itself holds no factual truth. You have to compare apples to apples right? So, my non-factual opinion about correlations between religion and happiness are solely based off my 'belief' in not believing things that aren't factual.
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@ rogue ... did u ever read any study. read the studies done in harvard university before commenting on wat i have said. and if u look at my first post u'll realize that i have said the same thing that religion has caused violence and hatred. before opening ur big damn mouth and making up ur mind to argue with me did u even read all my posts in this thread.
u call my comments vague bcoz u urself r a damn ignorant person.
and dont u dare call a blind preacher u idiot. u r the biggest ignorant person i have ever seen in my life. i have myself said that religion causes discrimination and divisions. u the hell dont u read all my comments properly. u wont do that bcoz all u want to is fight and argue for no reason wat so ever.
i have said that religion causes happiness individually but not globally. so before saying that im a blind, empty headed preacher just see who the hell u r talking to.
its not me but its u who is empty headed and a big ignorant person ... u stupid fool. -
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2 hours ago saiffarooqi
one study claiming that all other studies are stupid does not make any sense. you can't deny the number of other studies that show that religious people are better adjusted.
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saiffarooqi
@ rogue ... before u comment on who i am, just read at wat i have said. i can also use ur kind of language but i dont want to degrade myself at ur level. now first listen and then open ur big mouth.
firstly im not a preacher. i dont follow any religion u sick mind. did u even read all the things that i have said. u talk about facts. instaed of arguing with me y dont u just go read some of the psychological studies that have been done on religious people. u r a big ignorant person that shows by tone of ur comments.
first go and get some knowledge and then talk about things. if u say that im a preacher than read my first comment on this thread u damn fool.
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I was simply commenting on your inability to actually read what I wrote. I never said ALL studies were stupid, I said this topic was. And I said it to make a point... I am not ignorant. The simple fact that you think you're the only one that has read any sort of research material baffles me. I call you a preacher because you totally disregarded my point without even addressing it (exactly what preachers do) and trying to back yourself with 'knowledge' about 'harvard studies'.
The fact is that there are many papers, research, that argue both sides of the coin, I have the full right to express mine. Whether you can't handle my view or whether I hurt your feelings, again, has no bearing on my point of view about this topic.
Also,
@duniyah: It is not subjective. Ignorance does not equal happiness. It is not a synonym and is not even regarded as being the same, ever. I stand by my point that this is a problem that people feel the need to combined things where there is no logical reasoning to. After all, that's why people follow religion anyway, because they can't think of a better way to logic it out... among other reasons.
-Eric -
@ rogue ... u say that i completely disregarded ur point, i was putting my point forward and u thought that im disregarding urs. u completely disregarded my point without even reading it properly and too in an aggressive manner. i do not claim myself to be the most knowledgeable person. i'm not taking any sides. i'm just giving a psychological perspective of the whole topic ... things that i have read about.
there can be many perspectives of the same thing. if u read my comments properly then u wud have understood what i'm trying to say.
i have even written a post on my blog about religious violence and how ppl have been tormented each other in the name of religion.
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Well religion may well lead to a more happy life for many people. I suspect religious people find it easier to exlpain away any event in their lie as the will of god. There is no need to understand and question why things really happen if you just follow on blind faith.
While this may make you a happier person, it will also leave one more ignorant.-
i completely agree with you. religious people can easily justify the bad things that happen to them, which releases a lot of stress. also, they have a kind of feeling of being taken care of by God. they feel that whatever happens to them, God is always there to help them and take care of them.
this makes them happy, but also makes them too much dependent on their faith. it also shows that how people blindly follow something that doesnt have much of a logic. -
I agree with duniyah, i've basically met a lot of people who are like what duniyah said.
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And this is where I have to say ignorance is not happiness. So again, these two words are not correlated. You are not more happy because you are more ignorant. I am a happy person, and I think more and perceive more about topics like religion. Just because I think about all the sh** that's wrong with the world doesn't mean I can't find other things to be grateful for or happy about. Just because you know more about reality doesn't automatically make you less happy. This is why I just don't get people. There is no correlation here... it's what you make of it... just like it's what people make of religion. And from my POV, people are lazy and like to make excuses for everything. Which has nothing to do with being happy.
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rogue has struck on a truth that anyone who practices a faith, should take note and be aware of.
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@ rogue ... before u comment on who i am, just read at wat i have said. i can also use ur kind of language but i dont want to degrade myself at ur level. now first listen and then open ur big mouth.
firstly im not a preacher. i dont follow any religion u sick mind. did u even read all the things that i have said. u talk about facts. instaed of arguing with me y dont u just go read some of the psychological studies that have been done on religious people. u r a big ignorant person that shows by tone of ur comments.
first go and get some knowledge and then talk about things. if u say that im a preacher than read my first comment on this thread u damn fool. -
rogue - this is a very subjective topic. From my own experiences I have seen people find contentment and happiness in religion. Of course there are also plenty of atheists, like myself, who are also happy.
From what I have seen people who believe in a spiritual force seem to find it easier to come to terms with a lot of the unknowns of life, as there is one explanation that fits all questions. -
@ duniyah ... thanks for talking some sense. i myself am an agnostic and do not get into all this. i'm talking from a psychological perspective but some ppl just want to argue and call me a blind, empty headed preacher, which is actually really funny and the most stupidest thing that i have heard.
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@duniyah: It is not subjective. Ignorance does not equal happiness. It is not a synonym and is not even regarded as being the same, ever. I stand by my point that this is a problem that people feel the need to combined things where there is no logical reasoning to. After all, that's why people follow religion anyway, because they can't think of a better way to logic it out... among other reasons.
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I think yes there are some that do, that offer comfort and a sense of joy. Unfortunately many don't afford others that sense of peace and joy by leaving them alone. -
I can't completely agree with religion=happiness-
There are many who suffer at the hands of religion and impose that suffering onto others also. So I agree, I don't think it is de facto that religion equals happiness.
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Depends on the religion, the person, and the reason they're religious.-
@Anok - then please do me a favor and name me the 'happy' religion so we can clarify your statement.
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It's entirely dependent on the individual. Each factor - what, who, why and even when make a big difference in whether or not a religion can make you happy, or miserable. For example:
My religion makes me quite happy. It's the right religion for me, and I find happiness when I practice it. The methods and lessons I learn or use helps me balance my everyday life - which also makes me happy. I also practice it freely, free from coercion or guilt - another thing that makes me happy. (I'm a practicing Pagan, by the way).
On the other hand, some people may be coerced or stuck in a religion out of fear or habit - it doesn't fit them, and they are not happy practicing it. That would not make them happy. In fact, it may make them bitter. -
What religion do you practice if you don't mind me asking.
And secondly, so, it doesn't depend on the religion at all. Your point proves to me that it depends solely on the person. The religion is nothing more than a structure that is used to provide a function to the person.
But, the act of practicing a religion means you must actually believe it in (you should believe in the whole thing if you are religious) but there are plenty of people who only partially believe... which leads me to the question: 'why believe at all?'
Find something else that fits you entirely... not just pieces. There are plenty of other things you can think about or 'believe' in if thats the case.
If you take the crazy God figure out of religion. You are left with Ethics. Ethics is the dark horse... the forgotten source. No one seems to hear me when I say it though. -
You're right when you say it isn't religion - it's the engagement of an activity that makes a person happy. For some people, a religion can do that. For others it's music, art, food, work or a combination of those things.
So, for some people - like me - religion makes them happy, among other things.
(I had already stated that I practice Pagan religions, an eclectic variety to be specific). -
Glad we agree then that religion by itself has nothing to do with happiness, thanks for proving my point.
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But it does, if it makes the person happy when they practice it.
Of course, I think we agree on general studies claiming that religion, as a general institution always makes people happy is false. -
Agreed (with the second part).
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Would you be so quick to disagree (With the first part ) if the subject was work, or food or music?
If I said "But music does make people happy if they enjoy listening to it" would that strike you as incorrect?
We are, of course, affected by outside stimuli. Weather, music, people, beliefs, work, work environments etc... all affect our mood. Some things make us happy - cheer us up, or keep us calm while other things makes us angry, winds us up, or makes us feel macabre.
Religion is no different. -
I just don't think it makes sense you know? Music, by itself, can't be happy. It takes a person practicing or listening to music. And still, the music by itself cannot be an emotional entity. I know I'm killing the semantics here, but I'm honestly serious. I think people really don't know how to seperate these sorts of things. They unneccessarly combined them where it's not logical to. So, I still stand by my point. But thank you for such an engaging conversation so far
I think we actually do agree, but I'm taking the semantic path, because I don't think people pay enough attention to the literal meanings of things. -
Inanimate objects, ideas etc cannot express an emotion on their own - no, of course not. However the psychological exploration of how certain things affect humans render inanimate objects, ideas, or intangibles more powerful than not.
For example - scientifically speaking - music with fast or very fast beats raise the heart rate of the listener. That increases blood flow, thus increasing oxygen, and thus, energy. This is why gyms play high tempo music. The music literally makes you hyper or more active and alert.
Smells are a funny thing as well. The nerves associated with the olfactory senses have an intricate relationship with the brain and memory. Certain odors trigger brain activity that can make you sad, happy, angry, improved memory, or even sexual attraction.
So too does any physical, emotional or psychological stimulus - even from inanimate objects, ideas, or intangibles. Religion - if one believes in the religion they practice under no coercion - also trigger the brain and body. Prayer, meditation or other forms of worship cause change in the body and mind. Incense, homeopathic remedies, or ritual practices affect the senses (sight, touch, smell, taste, sound) affect a person physically and emotionally.
In this sense objects ideas etc can have a great effect on people's moods and well being. -
"@Anok - then please do me a favor and name me the 'happy' religion so we can clarify your statement."
The church of the flying spaghetti monster. I'm pretty sure they're happy.
www.venganza.org/ -
I agree that our unique abilities as humans have profound and very complex effects. Whether they are chemical, neruological, mental, etc... This is something I do agree upon and its definitely not the way/angle I was approaching our initial conversation. Unlike most people who argue about religion... who refuse to see someone elses point... I do now see yours. And although my original point didn't change, this is a different perspective in which we can consider, in context, and learn from. So good points. Well made friend.
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Thanks, Rogue - you too.
FSM - Do not mock the FSM or he will smite thee with his noodley appendage!!!
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Why be pigeon-holed into an outlook labelled as "religious?"
Religion is ANYTHING that makes you happy, successful, peaceful.
(e.g. Tony Robbins, playing sports, blogging =) )-
I'm sorry. But in the real world, this isn't religion.
If I agreed with your statement, then we'd all have to acknowledge that the amasterdam weed-smoking guy had a point. And he doesn't. -
"Religion is ANYTHING that makes you happy, successful, peaceful. "
Ummm...
reā liā gion
ā ā/rÉŖĖlÉŖdŹÉn/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [ri-lij-uhn] Show IPA Pronunciation
ānoun
1. a set of beliefs concerning the cause, nature, and purpose of the universe, esp. when considered as the creation of a superhuman agency or agencies, usually involving devotional and ritual observances, and often containing a moral code governing the conduct of human affairs.
God grant me the strength to deal with vague generalized WRONG interpretations of words. -
edopeno? 'religious' just means strict, single-minded, that sort of thing; the word can be looked up for it's variety of meanings. As has been exceptionally well said by Anok and others religion and happiness are quite different states of a human mind - different words invented to mean different things.
Their meanings are not INTRINSIC, or absolute, A study of their correlation in individuals could be interesting except for this vagueness of meaning, and except for the certain dishonesty of too many of both the researchers and the researched. There is certainly very little value in such studies, but of course 'believers' will believe in them - it's what they do, is it not?
I am extremely happy WITH my own atheism - I have no doubts whatever - my ignorance about most things is a source of future happiness.
I am happy FOR Anok and Mylissa if they draw comfort and stimulus, happiness one day, doubt the next, from their paganism. It is only one aspect of their whole.
I enjoyed the name-calling above too, it served to strengthen the beliefs of the contestants. Logic, experience, reasoning, intelligence are all powerless against religious belief. But I pray they will replace it one day!
jfinn - your comments are a pleasure.
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Religion = happiness???
Religion = misguided people who are susceptible to the suggestion that they must obey and follow some all-seeing bearded bloke in the sky.
The sooner we all stop talking or believing in religion, the better this world will be. Why can't people have faith in themselves and believe that we are all our own gods, instead of being sheeple and following something which was concocted in order to control the masses.-
Religion = misguided people who are susceptible to the suggestion that they must obey and follow some all-seeing bearded bloke in the sky.
I completely disagree with your definition of religion. That is a very narrow view which only applies to a couple of (admittedly major!) religions. Personally I believe in many gods and goddesses, none of whom are infallible and none of whom I blindly obey. -
Yes indeed SolReka. Sadly is not religious belief a function of the mind, just like the appendix is an organ of the body?
Trouble is Mylissa, mono-theism does control a lot of people. I predict you will abandon paganism one day. You might even be happier after - if that is possible. -
Out of interest bob, what makes you say that I'll abandon paganism?
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I do not personally believe religion alone makes people happy. Happiness is something that comes and goes.
Now joy is something else and it stays even in the bad times. Joy comes from God's Holy Spirit dwelling in us and even the worse conditions of life will not take it away.
I can be unhappy with life, such as when I am unemployed, but still have joy because I know what the end result will be.
Religion never brings happiness but a relationship with the Creator, the Savior and the King does.-
Don't relationships have to go both ways to be considered, you know, relationships? How can a one sided relationship (well, let's face it, the level of devotion involved here, in most cases, is creepy and needy enough to call it stalking) bring anyone happiness?
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I think that a set of beliefs in anything can provide happiness, as long as one doesn't have those beliefs shattered or one doesn't have to spend the majority of one's time defending those beliefs.
For example; a belief in Santa Claus made me happy as a child, once I discovered he wasn't real I was unhappy for a time, but I would have been unhappier still if I had to spend all day defending my belief in him to people who knew better and thought I was dumb.
In an increasingly communicative age, can religious people truly be happy? Everywhere they go, they have to defend their faith. Except in church, they probably get agreed with there. -
A bit wrong I think, Inclark does not have to defend his beliefs, they cannot be questioned, it is we who are wrong. In a way 'happiness' is a bit that way, drunks and junkies after a hit are not exhibiting JOY are they? Every step towards an understanding the true nature of the physical universe brings me joy.
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Sigh. Wishful thinking.
I was being ironical Since there's more of them then us, clearly we're the ones on the defensive.
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Because of religion, I lost all chance of obtaining a degree. Because of religion, I was married off in a 21-year bad marriage and ended up working rotating shifts that destroyed my health. Because of religion, I was run out of many churches with violence, just for quoting from the Masoretic Text. Because of religion, my spouse was estranged by a minister. Because of religion, my only daughter does not speak to me today.
Happiness due to religion? I don't see that happening. But I do see happiness as a result of trusting in principles that religion claims to espouse but in practice only gives an image of doing so:
Trust in the Higher, innocence, remembrance of the Good, sacrifice, the Turning, the desire for others. These are things, while presumed to be the stuff of religion are nothing of the sort. They transcend all pretense, and all religion, and do much for happiness. -
Religion=happy lies-
lmao
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Here's a better equation to ponder...
Jesus = Your Salvation
...nothing to do with religion.-
It's a statement that speaks to most people of dogma, though. For most, it's just another religious slogan that has no living reality in most people.
It would have to be explained better than that if the latter is genuinely true with you. -
Again see the definition of religion in my response to edopeno, above.
This is like saying that apples have nothing to do with trees. Of course the assertion that salvation can be found through Jesus is religious in nature. Yikes. -
I'm very confused. How can 'Jesus = Your Salvation' ever not be religious?!
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There will be some people that are turned off by the above equation and some that will be attracted to it. Maybe a seed will be planted, maybe not.
When I was in a recovery meeting, one man spoke about Jesus often. Most were repelled or not interested. I was one out of maybe 3 or 4 that were interested in what this man had to say out of a meeting of 35 men. I was attracted to his words, actions, and behavior. Eventually, I found what he had...a relationship with Jesus...not a relationship with religion.
It is a leap of faith and God's grace that one finds salvation. Again, it's not about religion. -
Okay, then, it's about salvation. But that does not equate automatically to happiness. Happiness for most people isn't about a surety of a hereafter. The experience says plenty. But most don't relate to it, let alone the equation because most have no idea if what you offer is any more than an indoctrination by a cult. Even talk about a relationship is so undefined that it's nebulous.
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What are you talking about TBR - 'nothing to do with religion'? Jesus, salvation?
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I think TBR is trying to hone in on the idea of "relationship" as in opposition to religion. But I've had a devil of a time trying to hone in on a good illustration if not an actual definition of what that means to him. At least Jesus of Nazareth did that much with his parables, so at least providing illustration shouldn't be impossible. And after all, the idea of a relationship is different with different people.
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Salvation is more important than happiness...although finding such is an unexplainable joy.
I'm watching the video now. You've got some "old school" fire and brimstone sounding dialogue...works for some, for others it doesn't. But I know God's church is bigger and works in more ways than I can understand...so hats off to you for posting! -
Perhaps it's more explainable in parts. Perhaps you can give a vignette that's illustrative that can cut through the logjam of ecclesiastical and theological gobbledegook?
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@MylissaAriana
Your question is:
Religion = Happiness?
Within all schisms of Christianity, Christian speak (jargon) is used to distinguish one schism of Christianity from another. If you were an evangelical fundamentalist Christian you then would never have used "religion" in the title of this post or in your equation.
In order to differentiate themselves from all other Christian schisms evangelicals deny having "religion". Instead they choose to emphasize having a "personal relationship" with Jesus/God. That's why you are getting the kind of feedback on salvation, etc. from BC members who are evangelicals.
There position is that the sadducees and pharisees had religion in Jesus's time were legalists, who had lost the spirit of the law and over emphasized outward practices of their faith.
Within the Christian evangelical mileu today the word "religion" has a totally negative and judgmental spin. And unless you go with their flow of their negative spin on that word, they will beat you over the head with the paper pope, cherry picking verses verses to convince you that Christians are meant to have a personal relationship with Jesus and not religion.
Unless you appreciate the fact that this jargon is employed to differentiate themselves from other Christians your can spend days on end in this thread going round and round in circles playing the evangel speak game.-
I do not define my faith in Jesus by the word "religion" not because I want to "differentiate" myself from anyone or "all other Christian schisms."
I define it that way because I truly believe it's not about religion and that is what I would like to convey to you! -
TT, thanks for that clarification, I was getting ready to go ten rounds with Captain My Love for Invisi-God Has Nothing to do With Religion.
I think I can say with some authority that religion of that stripe definitely doesn't bring ME any happiness; the whole put your fingers in your ears and say "Jesus Jesus Jesus" over and over when a differing view point comes along is frustrating at best.
Cheers -
Please consider who is putting their fingers in their ears. Mere mention of Jesus a few times in my comments has you running out the door!
In fact the comment above yours explains my stance and why I say what I do without using the word "Jesus" over and over. Yet, you chose to believe TT. -
Big Rusky:
1) Not running anywhere sir.
2)"the whole put your fingers in your ears and say "Jesus Jesus Jesus""
This is what we in the humor/atheist/social commentary blogging business call "Extreme use of metaphor to highlight a point"
For those needing clarification, what I was actually referring to was the typical stance of the faithful (and here's an example specific to you, sir; "I define it that way because I truly believe it's not about religion and that is what I would like to convey to you!") to use circular logic, feelings, and jargon to distort debate and insulate themselves from the application of reason.
3) I absolutely agree with TT; in my life I've seen the evidence of this first hand and have had the exact same debates, none of them leading anywhere positive. A long time ago I came to understand that the fundamental difference between faithful literalists and atheists is that, if the universe provided incontrovertible evidence of god's existence, atheists would believe. If the reverse were true, you'd still cling to your faith.
Everything about your style of arguing reflects that stance, Big Ruski, whereas TT seems a bit more reasonable and rational, ergo I agree with her. -
@@MylissaAriana
I have spoken from my own personal experience as I was born and raised within the Christian evangelical fundamentalist community. I graduated from Bible College and I chose not to continue on to get a degree. Both sides of my family are replete with, pastors, preachers, praise and worship leaders, teachers and elders. We are in continuous contact I I know whereof I speak.
I have spoken openly and honestly. I have not referred to any other BC member's name and have no launched an attack on their viewpoint or on them as a person. I have simply shared what I know to be true.
Each schism of Christianity must needs be distinguish itself from others in order to exist. It's the differences the members perceive between denominational dogma and doctrine that led to the founding of these schisms in the first place and that sustains them today.
Both Conservative Christian evangelical fundamentalists like Baptists and the schisms they have given rise to, and charismatic evangelical fundamentalists like Pentecostals and the schisms they have given rise to will deny having "religion". They will state that they have a "personal relationship" with Jesus/god. And both denominations and the the schisms they have given rise to also have a firm belief that the members of the "other" Christian denominations and schism have not interpreted the gospel message correctly. -
Ok now I had to laugh. When I was scared as a child putting my fingers in my ears and saying Jesus, Jesus, Jesus is exactly what I did. was I happy? No, terrified that my aunt said I had deamons in me. For me religion does not equal happiness. I can only connect it to a bunch of demented, delusional people. One of them was in a nut house last I heard. -
@jfinn1319
[quote] A long time ago I came to understand that the fundamental difference between faithful literalists and atheists is that, if the universe provided incontrovertible evidence of god's existence, atheists would believe. If the reverse were true, you'd still cling to your faith.
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YES! IMO you have hit the nail on the head. Suffice to say that atheists, agnostics and secular humanists are far more open minded on these subjects than evangelicals are.
They aren't fear based guilt trippers, full of shame and self loathing for past attitudes and deeds, so they aren't voluntary candidates for brainwashing.
As I come from a family that contains both conservative christian evangelical fundamentalists and charismatics as well, I could devote several comments to clarifying the differing emphasis each denomination it's many schisms places on their interpretation and ranking of cherry picked scriptures, the jargon they use and the means they employ to differentiate themselves from all other Christians, but I won't because I have a life to live. -
TT:
"YES! IMO you have hit the nail on the head. Suffice to say that atheists, agnostics and secular humanists are far more open minded on these subjects than evangelicals are."
I don't believe in agnostics either lol.
My friend Stef wrote this as a reply to a post on my blog;
"Once upon a time a little boy and a little girl didn't know how to read. They looked up the word atheist in the dictionary and thought that it looked very smiliar to anachist and rememebered it wrong.
Then they told everyone they knew."
I think that sums up the conflict nicely -
no, that's fair enough. Personaly I wouldn't have used 'religion' I would have said 'spirituality', but as the staudy and the BBC article used 'religion' I figured I better stick with that. Especially as I was interested in people's reactions to the article as well as the concept!
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Actually, even Christians have a "religion" that they are COMMANDED to practice! Here it is:
"If anyone thinks to be religious among you, yet does not bridle his tongue, but deceives his own heart, this one's religion is vain. Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, to visit orphans and widows in their afflictions, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world." James 1:26-27-
If you consider "visiting orphans and widows in their afflictions" a religion, so be it. But, it is not this action that gives you relationship with God.
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Ah...the old faith-only vs faith and works debate that never seems to end within the Christian circles. Will Christans ever come to a consensus on this?
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Consensus is not so important on this one. Sometimes we do acts of kindness because we simply want to. Other times we are called to. It is possible to act in both ways...but I would not recommend hanging your hat on "acts of kindness."
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Good answer. Good answer.
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We are all capable of being good for goodness sake - no salvation required.
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True enough. That echos Ruski's response well, even if from a different persuasion.
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I find that the religion makes the person happyest and insurance of itself! Greetings.
Fernando -
Im starting to hear bees again. The swarm has come! BZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ!
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LOL... does this mean there are still bees that have not been summarily killed off? Quick, break out the pollen.
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Bee pollen is good stuff there...
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So far, this discussion has been more on the order of whether or not Christianity brings happiness or not. Where are the other faiths on this? Have any weighed in who I may have overlooked?
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I guess me...and what...one other person are the "more."
Crying "uncle" are ye? -
Uncle? I just want to hear from the other religions because the discussion is too limited. Where are the Muslims? Are they happier because they have religion? Do they know anything otherwise and have nothing to which they can compare? And is there a living reality in that as so many Christians claim to have (whether they actually do or not). That should provide an insightful contrast, don't you think?
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I weighed in about my Pagan beliefs waaaay up there ^
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Crying uncle surely you jest.
My Core Beliefs
* I am complete, perfect and whole.
* I am capable, competent, compassionate, lovable and powerful.
* I set realistic goals and achieve them.
* I learn equally well from both success and failure.
* I see clearly what is happening both outside and inside of me, without emotional or rational attachments and distractions.
* I experience joy and peace that pass all understanding when I enter the ego-less state of harmonious balance through meditation.
* Learning is a lifelong experience that transcends many livesā¦and when we close our minds to learning we close our minds to life itself.
* The same life lessons will be presented to me and over again until I learn them.
* The more difficult the challenge, the more valuable the life lesson will be.
* Ideas, theories and beliefs are not necessarily truths.
* A belief is not an idea held by the mind; it is an idea that holds the mind.
* We donāt see things as they are; we see things as we are.
* Change is the only constant in life, and I am able to be flexible and adaptable, and to flow with its ever-changing events.
* Lifeās changes are challenges, which help me grow and become more powerful, purposeful and strong because every failure contains the feedback required to achieve future success.
* Not everyone will love me nor will I love everyone but thatās okay, because at our core we are all much more the same than we are different.
* Happiness is a decision made between the ears.
* Death is a transition, a new beginning.
My guiding principals for practice are:
dana = authentic generosity (charitable giving of the self and sharing of possessions, donation)
metta = selfless love and good will toward all beings (loving kindness)
karuna = compassion (respect, acceptance, forgiveness)
mudita = altruistic joy filled with peace and contentment (appreciative joy at the success and good fortune of others)
sila = self discipline -abstaining from physical and vocal actions that cause harm to oneself and others
uppekka = equanimity (an inclusive state of open mind free of attachment, aversion, bigotry, craving, ignorance and intolerance) -
Pagan also.
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Religion is a belief. It may or may not happen..
Happiness is a gift. And Your hapiness results from the happiness.-
Wouldn't you say, though, that what you believe makes a difference in your overall perspective?
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dosox please; 'Religion' is a kind of philosophy, 'belief' is a state of mind, such things don't 'happen'
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Viewing this doesn't really tell me much other than the usual apologies of Islam. What I would like to know is how it may have meant greater happiness for you personally...or did it?
BTW...check your blog. When I clicked on it I found a threat detected that I had to isolate. -
Perhaps proselytizing is not the intended purpose of this conversation; or should I link to a site detailing (at nauseating length) the tenets of atheism?
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I have approached this discussion with the belief that it was NOT about proselytizing. But if an Atheist has something to offer on religion and happiness, why not?
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Lynnea:
I was parodying Jana's post. The point I was making was that the site linked to was a conversion tool to recruit people to the muslim faith. Jana's assertion that our answers could be found there wasn't really in the spirit of the discussion.
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I believe that religion can equal happiness, whether it's Judaism, Islam, Christianity, Buddhism, Hinduism, various forms of Paganism, or Atheism.
Your belief and adherence to a set a principles is what creates belonging and happiness with religion. If your religion enraged you and did not fulfill you, you would find another belief system. -
Was I happier when I was religious? Yes, somewhat. But when I look back at my former religion, it seems foolish and hateful, so I'm not sorry I'm not religious. -
There was another study released last year that showed regular service attendees lived longer than those who did not regularly attend a religious service. But I don't remember the details.-
And that would be funny, because isn't the goal of the religious to reach the right sort of afterlife? Living longer would seem counterproductive.
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@jfinn1319
Indeed you cracked me up because you made me remember something. When I was 12 I asked a pastor (a relative) this question, which I was later punished for asking:
"Well, then why don't we all just fall on a knife?"
My cheekiness gave rise to a whole series of sermons vilifying those who had committed suicide, and emphasizing that our purpose in life was to serve and worship god, and if we choose to "play god" by ending our own lives, rather than allowing him to choose when to "take us" then we would surely not find a place in heaven. [She rolls her eyes.] -
I was about to post this comment in response to the original question: Back in the days many, many years ago when I occasionally attended religious services they always bored me to tears, so, for me, religion definitely does NOT equal happiness. However, after seeing your (kevingoodman) comment, I thought my words were better placed as a reply to you because what you said got me thinking. Maybe regular service attendees don't live longer, it just seems longer. -
@time
Why is the pastors kid always raises hell? -
When I was a kid all my friends went to church so I naturally wondered why we didnāt ā my mom said āBecause your father embarrasses us with his snoringā.
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ROFL! And perhaps the extra napping had something to do with the increase of lifespans? That aspect of religion just might be good for some people!
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@Joel & Kevin
Maybe regular service attendees don't live longer, it just seems longer.
... lol ...
Because your father embarrasses us with his snoring.
... lol ...
@LynneaUrania
Maybe Kevin's dad's napping wasn't napping at all ... lol ... maybe he was inclined towards "soaking in the spirit". -
KG That's because they are already old, but don't worry, religious people don't need research to be scientific.
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Ignorance is bliss as they say. Heck it's easier to believe in something that cannot be proved (faith), rather than keep questioning the very thing you know nothing about (science).
Humans beings are ultimately lazy, selfish, and belligerent creatures. Religion seems to fit this bill rather nicely, hence the large number of followers of most religions.(except buddhism, and a couple of others).
imo the flying spaghetti monster (FSM), or the teapot orbiting Jupiter have just as much merit as any other God.
My scientific opinion on religion: When people 'feel' the presence of God, they are simply harmonizing themselves with this Universe. They are resonating at a frequency which is in tune with their surroundings, this leads to a sense of euphoria, elation, and esoteric bliss. This has nothing to do with god/s.-
@solreka
When people 'feel' the presence of God, they are simply harmonizing themselves with this Universe. They are resonating at a frequency which is in tune with their surroundings, this leads to a sense of euphoria, elation, and esoteric bliss. This has nothing to do with god/s.
Agreed.
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@timethief
Hi stranger, long time no speak.
I'm glad you agree with me, not many people do. It seems that it's me against the rest of the world at times. Just how I like it :-) After all, imagine being the same as every one else - how boring would that be.
So timethief you believe in resonant frequencies, superluminal waves, and branes (elsewhere Universes). These are topics we should be discussing, instead of the baloney that is religion.
I find it sad that today's society place little value on the inquisitive mind.-
Your inquisitive mind is great. Keep inquiring!
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@Sol
I think I missed a step somewhere, did we suddenly take a left turn into the land of quantum/meta physics? Isn't that almost religion anyway? ;p
Big Ruski:
I have a friend on another site who said literally the same thing you said to Sol, but to me:
"Your inquisitive mind is great. Keep inquiring!"
She's a devout born again Christian and she sent me the message in response to this article that I had cross posted:
thingsthatmakemyheadexplode.blogspot.com/2009/02/neither-bound-by-threat-no...
The reason I bring this up is that her response was word for word the same as yours and, when I called her on whether or not she was being sarcastic, she admitted that it was used as a deflection to avoid having conversations that might challenge her faith. She and I have a good enough friendship that I get honest responses like that, and I don't expect the same level of disclosure from you, but...and not meaning to imply anything mean or untoward here....
Was that a genuine compliment, or was that you implying that, while you have all the answers you need on the subject, Sol should keep on plugging away at it like a good puppy, until he hits upon the same truth?
Maybe I'm reading too much into it, maybe I'm just subconsciously trying to pick a fight, but the fact that it was identical to what my friend Jan had said in a similar situation makes me wonder if there's some born again handbook of easy deflection-responses out there.
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@jfinn1319
I was being sincere....being inquisitive just might lead you down the right path. I don't know your friend and there is no "handbook" other than God's love letter to you, the Bible. -
@TBR
I was raised by Jewish parents, if the Bible is god's love letter to me, he needs relationship counseling. -
'So timethief you believe in resonant frequencies, superluminal waves, and branes (elsewhere Universes). These are topics we should be discussing, instead of the baloney that is religion.'
Statements like this make religion sound almost attractive as an expression of rational thought.
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"when people 'feel' the presence of God, they are simply harmonizing themselves with this Universe. They are resonating at a frequency which is in tune with their surroundings, this leads to a sense of euphoria, elation, and esoteric bliss."
Wow! How do you know when you are "in tune"? Is this like a formula we can all follow and achieve?
Sorry, too complicated...too many steps to believe in...and what if we got addicted to "esoteric bliss"?
I appreciate your conviction. However, I believe you are placing too much emphasis on "esoteric bliss."-
I've asked similar questions of Evangelicals who talk about being "in tune."
The "esoteric bliss" blurb reminds me of Billy Graham's remark in a sermon, "Get high on the LORD!" -
@LynneaUrania
Some evangelicals claim they are "in tune" when they lay on the floor and "soak in the spirit" during church services. Others make the same "in tune" claim when they come forward during a service to be touched by pastors, and then fall backwards into the hands of strategically placed "catchers," who make sure that those who are "slain in the spirit" do not injure themselves.
Still others roll about on the floor engaging in "holy laughter" or "holy tears", while claiming to be "in tune". A few also claim to be "in tune" when they blurt out what they refer to as prophetic utterances.
All of them claim to be "in tune" when they engage in "speaking in tongues" because another distinguishing belief they have from other Christian schisms is that speaking in tongues is evidence of being in dwelled by the holy spirit.
Rock concert mega church style stadium events feature masses of believers claiming to be "in tune" with hands held in the air, singing and dancing along with the music while experiencing euphoria and elation.
These same believers claim that all other Christians who do not manifest in these ways are "not in tune" as it's their belief that the others have "quenched the holy spirit of god within them". -
Would that be a kind of addiction to "esoteric bliss?"
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Would that be a kind of addiction to "esoteric bliss?"
Indeed it well may be, for the majority of new converts are frequently those who have been previously getting high on alcoholic, drugs, sex and contemporary music. It's entirely possible that they are substituting one "euphoric" addiction for another and calling it "salvation". -
In which case the arguments presented by TBR might just as easily be applied to certain Evangelicals. Perhaps his Christianity is of a different sort than these? You'd think that a relationship of some kind with Jesus should shatter the illusion of such addictions...or are they good addictions?
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@TT
You know, I was of course aware of this idea of being in tune, speaking in tongues, prophesying, etc. I never really thought about it being a fundamental (no pun intended) aspect of the Christian faith, but considering how much of the U.S. identifies as being "charismatic" or evangelical....
I think it was the combination of watching Jesus Camp and then seeing a video of a friend of mine in Toronto, twitching around on the floor in a mega church, sputtering nonsense, that finally made me analyze the behavior.
You know what it reminds me of? When teenagers smoke oregano that someone claimed was weed and then convince themselves that they're high and act accordingly. I can turn my brain off, open my mouth and let random sounds come out too (on a good night 2 or 3 times) that doesn't mean I'm in tune with anything other than my ID. -
@jfinn1319
I don't feel inclined to do a critique of the so-called "Toronto blessing" and examine and then split open the soft underbelly of the Vineyard movement today.
I'm also not feeling inclined towards to take explain the self righteous arrogance of conservative baptists or their free standing schisms, aside from observing that their at church services are the opposite to that of the charismatics, whom they scorn as being overly emotional and acting in ways that "are not of god".
Shrug ... I suppose the believers within the conservative faction resemble what one might imagine one might look like following a rectal hockey stick implant when they were "saved" and "born again". -
@TT
Yeah, when my buddy Brian started talking about the Toronto blessing I kind of shook my head and snickered, until I saw the number of people that were attending and it blew my mind. There are really THAT many born-agains in this country? In Canada? In the liberal fortress of Ontario? I feel like an extra on Sliders that got taken along for the ride.
And yup, you're definitely a Canadian, working hockey sticks into a conversation about the breaks in the bones of Christianity...pure gold. -
@jfinn1319
I live off the west coast of Canada in the gulf islands region. The Toronto Airport Blessing - Vineyard Church (founded in 1994) is situate in the airport. It was founded by Leaders of the Anaheim, California- based Vineyard Association of Churches who split from it in 1996.
www.rapidnet.com/~jbeard/bdm/Psychology/char/more/bless.htm
www.christianitytoday.com/ct/1996/january8/6t1066.html
For clarity all factions and schisms of evangelical fundamentalist Christians (conservative and charismatic) do speak in terms of being born again. The born again faction are not the largest churches in Canada. The United Church of Canada is. -
@TT
Re: Toronto Blessing
Sorry, I thought you were talking about the big evangelical shindig they had in T.O. a couple of years back, according to Bryan it was also called the Toronto Blessing.
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@TheBigRuski
As people have faith in God, I have faith in what I believe. From all that I read and learn from my surroundings and life in general, this is the conclusion I have come to.
Everything in this Universe has a resonant frequency, using the principle of Occam's razor, one can assume that human beings resonate. Perhaps this is what people feel when they get close to God.
That is all, nothing more, nothing less. The use of the term 'esoteric bliss' was perhaps placed with too much emphasis, you get the drift though of what I was trying to say.
I would rather be mad with the truth than sane with lies. - Bertrand Russel-
Great! But you did not answer even one of my questions.
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@SolReka
Humans may "resonate" (truthfully), however, the feelings and thoughts of being close to God have been said and documented to be experienced in infinitely more ways than simply resonating. You can't quantify what people feel when getting close to God so simply.
"In view of such harmony in the cosmos which I, with my limited human mind am able to recognize, there are yet people who say there is no God. But what makes me really angry is that they quote me for support of such views." -- Albert Einstein
source: raycomfortfood.blogspot.com/-
I will reply to your question - How do you know when you are "in tune" tomorrow. Must dash now.
Healthy debating is good for the soul.
Take care
R -
Thanks, SolReka!
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Nonreligious for the last decade or so, and perfectly happy with it. I refute your study.-
I assume that you are saying that you were religious and did not find happiness like what you know now. Am I correct? If so, could you elaborate on this?
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I think the study only really applies to those who are content in their beliefs and ideology and are tolerate of others', even if it differs. For those that aren't, it would just be a source of conflict, which would negate the 'happiness' factor of the study.-
It certainly seems like it. My spouse of 21 years, who was intensely religious, was also quite a miserable person until death from cancer in 2003.
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miserable until death? forgive me, I have to ask - did he improve?
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Happiness comes from within. Some people look to religion as a means of attempting to find happiness and to have something outside of themselves to hold onto. But religion will never = happiness.
Wars and hatred...maybe!!!-
Contrary to what many popular books, movies, and seminars tell you, you wonāt discover your lifeās meaning by looking within yourself.
I have. *shrug* -
@Anok...
I guess that's the end of that story then. -
I guess so...Anok seems content with that.
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Yup.
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Contrary to what many popular books, movies, and seminars tell you, you wonāt discover your lifeās meaning by looking within yourself.
You also won't find any answers in the beliefs handed down from cattle-sacrificing primitives who believed Noah lived within walking distance of every animal on planet Earth.
Why discover what you can determine? -
I see you've added "cattle-sacrificing primitives" to your rap.
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@vodooKobra...
The only way out of this quagmire is to stop looking at it through our own eyes and start looking at it through God's eyes.
If God is God, then Creation is EXACTLY the way He wants it. He didn't make any mistakes He had to go back and "fix." So it was part of His plan from the very beginning to wipe out certain life forms, shelter others in an immense ark and - most important - provide a covenant with those men who survived to be fruitful and multiply across the earth and to have dominion over all its creatures.
The miraculous way all of this was accomplished is also by design. In fact, it is designed to stimulate our awe of God, just like the parting of the Red Sea, or the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, or the death and resurrection of Jesus.
Instead of getting caught up in the questions posed by our own limited minds, we are called to gasp in astonishment that Almighty God was able to flood the earth, that He called all species to report to Noah at their appointed times, that He caused them to live graciously together for the better part of a year.
Are any of these things more amazing than the feeding of 5,000 people with a handful of loaves and fishes?
source: www.allaboutpopularissues.org/noah-and-the-ark-faq.htm -
[If God is God, then Creation is EXACTLY the way He wants it.]
This is a deductive claim with an assumed premise that cannot be proven true or false. Therefore, meaningless. (Unsound, if you want to be pragmatic.) Everything that follows assumes the conclusion of this statement to be true, so even if the arguments were valid they would not be sound. -
...uh, ok. And how's that working for you?
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www.nakedscience.org/mrg/Deductive and Inductive Reasoning.htm
EDIT: Here's another link.
www.iep.utm.edu/v/val-snd.htm -
@searchingwithin
Agreed. Happiness is a choice we make between out ears. Perhaps those who choose to cling to faith think that their future is in the bag, so to speak, and thereby enable themselves to think happy thoughts and attribute them to what they perceive to be as their salvation. -
@TheBigRuski
I'm with Kobra; you can't make blanket statements about the nature of the Universe like, "If God is God, then Creation is EXACTLY the way He wants it. He didn't make any mistakes He had to go back and "fix," or "The miraculous way all of this was accomplished is also by design," without backing it up with more than just opinion.
All of your statements in that paragraph are intuition based on ONE book whose historical veracity couldn't even be called dubious. In order to make "Is" or "Are" statements (statements of fact, rather than conjecture) you have to be able to back up your position with actual fact. -
@jfinn1319
The book would not be the best seller of all time (after the Bible) if there were not people who back it up as fact. -
[The book would not be the best seller of all time (after the Bible) if there were not people who back it up as fact.]
It cannot be "as fact" without being backed up "by facts." So please do so. -
@TheBigRuski
"The book would not be the best seller of all time (after the Bible) if there were not people who back it up as fact."
1)I was assuming that your "knowledge" WAS coming from the Bible; there's another book you're using as source material for this?
2)How many people buy something has absolutely nothing do with it's legitimacy. From your pic I'm guessing you're old enough to have learned that by now.
This argument is akin to one used against Atheism all the time; "90% of us believe in God, we can't all be wrong." Yes, you can. Up until a few decades ago, large groups of people believed that excessive masturbation could lead to blindness, they were wrong. Half a century ago the majority of the western world believed the female orgasm to be a myth, they were wrong. A century ago all of western science thought that the orbit of Mercury was unexplainable and god's signature on the cosmos, they were very wrong. Two centuries ago a great number of people used the Bible as justification for their right to own other people as slaves, wrong. Half a millenium ago everyone on earth thought they were flying through space on a frisbee, can't even begin to stop laughing at how wrong.
Do I need to go on?
People, in general, are gullible and cling too easily to the beliefs of their parents, but wanting something to be true and it ACTUALLY being true are two very different things. No theologian or bible scholar has ever offered up any actual proof to support any of the bible's speculations on the nature of the Universe or the existence of god. No matter how many people have bought the book, it has no more fact behind it than the Lord of the Rings. -
@voodooKobra and jfinn1319...
The first 7 chapters of the book, Purpose Driven Life, are available online for free (link below). I encourage you to read them...at some point, you may begin to see the factual basis in this text.
I was a skeptic once, too!
www.purposedrivenlife.com/en-US/AboutUs/AboutTheBook/FirstSevenChapters.htm -
[I was a skeptic once, too!]
I doubt it. Critical thinking does not appear to be your strength. -
@TheBigRuski
So, to give it a chance, I read the first three chapters. I wonder if you would do that much with The God Delusion or God is not Great. I have a couple of points;
1) Without getting into the text itself; this is NOT the world's best selling book (after the Bible.) According to Wikipedia, it's broken some records for longevity on the NYT best seller list, but not at number 1 and not enough time to give it any supremacy (no pun intended) It is ONE of the best-selling Non-Fiction books of all time, but then, so is The Secret, so that doesn't say much about it's potential readership.
2) Nothing I read in this book goes deeper than logic, being used to back up statements that, again, have no basis beyond the biblical. Ignoring the fact that Warren has an absolutely atrocious habit of paraphrasing bible passages to suit his own needs, at no point does he offer anything beyond his own assumptions of his source material as proof for his thesis. The only quotes he could get from the scientific community were from discredited academics from non-western institutions, hardly a ringing endorsement for the scientific truth of theology.
An example of conjecture and logic disguised as fact; this is the "Point to Ponder" from the end of Chapter 1.
"If there were no God, and everything was a result of random chance, there would be no purpose to your life. It all starts with God."
I want to analyze this for you because it's very reflective of your arguments specifically and fundamentalist religion in general.
This statement makes two very misleading assumptions before it ever reaches its conclusion.
1) In the absence of god, there is only chance. This is a common supposition and, I think, one of the biggest problems people of faith have with the idea of evolution. Evolution (and I'm using this as a microcosmic example of the Universe as a whole) isn't random or relegated to chance, far from it. The process of Natural Selection is one by which only the best traits for survival are allowed to thrive in a species. If it were all based on chance, my penis would probably be tucked into my ear (not very practical for procreation) The absence of a creator doesn't automatically relegate everything to chaos, rather natural processes select and discard based on learned programming; much like a toddler selects and discards behaviors as appropriate or inappropriate based on outside stimuli.
2) Purpose is necessary. The only way to reach the conclusion Warren does (without god there is no purpose, therefore god must exist) is to take the remarkable leap of faith that purpose is so necessary it requires its own existence. To take the context away from this and expose the logic behind the statement as just flat out wrong I pose a simple critical thinking question. T or F : Some cats are female, therefore all females are cats.
Nobody would try to justify this answer as true, why do accept it when it comes to questions of the Universe?
From what I read, (and correct me if the book does a sudden about face later) the whole book is littered with self serving logical conundrums like this one; circles that reference back to the Bible and then spiral out into the land of logical absurdity to reach insupportable positions. There's nothing here that convinces me and, as such, if this is the template of your argument, there's nothing you have to say on the subject that can be convincingly factual.
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Too serious, how about something to laugh about.
Check this out
digg.com/arts_culture/The_Golden_Rule_For_Atheists_PIC -
Religion=HAPPINESS
religion = child molestations,spanish inquisition,wars,corruption-
all religions?
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It's absolutely astonishing what gets "removed by the community" here. Whether it be from me or someone else, I've seen comments removed for no apparent reason other than they have to do with God, the Bible, Jesus....or Rick Warren.
I mean that is the only conclusion I can surmise. The comments removed certainly had nothing to do with breaking BC guidelines.
However, my "happiness" is in check.-
I must say, due to not having internet at home at the moment, I was very suprised when I got to work and saw all these 'comment removed by the community' messages.
My curiosity has gone into overdrive... aaaaaaaah! -
@MylissaAriana
You posed a great question...and unfortunately, there is a line some people draw when it comes to discussions of faith. Be it because of bad experiences from their past, prejudicial views, or simply not wanting to hear about Jesus and/or God.
But this is the way it's always been in the world. So, in this great thread you created, it comes as no surprise that some people read and take in, and some people choose to look away...and hit "report." -
A simple reminder that faith is not believing in the existence of a First Being (linking back to a thread on the Religious forum) was removed. What possible explanation could there be to this?
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If it was one of your posts, HA, it could have been any number of reasons. I'm not the admin, and I don't have access to the information you're querying.
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Voodoo,
5 or 6 posters had comments removed. Even though my post came after yours, I was responding to Mylissa. -
its weird... I wonder if reported posts are read before being removed?
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@harveyavatar
According to your assumption, which other "linking back to a thread on the ... forum(s)" would qualify as being removable upon reporting? -
BigRuski,
Not sure I understand what you are saying.
Removed post not read? Wouldn't be surprised. -
I too have found the comments get needlessly removed from BC.
It seems we live in a world where we daren't offend or challenge peoples' sensibilities. So much for intelligent debating.
I wrote a post a while ago on BC asking why most athletes were black. Suffice to say the ignoramuses removed my post and called me a racist - pathetic.
The popularity of some of the posts in BC sum up the psyche of the majority of readers - let's play a 2-word game... wtf
I reckon this comment will no doubt be removed because it has words such as intelligent and debating. -
Solreka, I agree with you. Given this is a 'discussion forum', discussion should be allowed! IMO, the only posts that should be removed are those which are abusive to a particular person, those which are obviously racist/sexist etc and spam.
As for 'bigoted' posts, surely its a matter of opinion what constitutes this? One man's/woman's bigotry is another, um, person's valid opinion. -
If I say "Gays are abominations who should be shot into mass graves," it is certainly not a valid opinion. Unless you're a Christian conservative, it seems.
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@BigRuski,
OK now I getcha ;-)
VK links regularly back to that forum, so I don't see it as problematic.
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Religion does not make me happy, but having a relationship with Jesus does.
I have peace that surpasses all understanding, no matter what is going on in the world.-
Couldn't have said it better myself!
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It doesn't surpass my understanding.
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Happiness is based on circumstance and situation. Joy & Peace is a bi-product of relationsip ... which takes us back to FreshWind's comment ... my relationship with Christ positively impact me. -
Have some quotes:
The God of the Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully. - Richard Dawkins
What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof. - Christopher Hitchens
In Christianity neither morality nor religion come into contact with reality at any point. - Friedrich Nietzsche
It will yet be the proud boast of women that they never contributed a line to the Bible. - George W. Foote
You do not need the Bible to justify love, but no better tool has been invented to justify hate. - Richard A. Weatherwax
To say that atheism requires faith is as dim-witted as saying that disbelief in pixies or leprechauns takes faith. Even if Einstein himself told me there was an elf on my shoulder, I would still ask for proof and I wouldnāt be wrong to ask. - Geoff Mather
Be thankful that you have a life, and forsake your vain and presumptuous desire for a second one. - Richard Dawkins-
Thank you VDK, these are awesome quotes.
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I am not sure if relgion brings total happiness to a person because total hapiness in reserved only for paradise. in this life we get small smatterings of happiness in our lives from time to time on rare occasions - if we are honest with ourselves.
Religion gives me contentment and piece of mind because it provides all the answers to life's questions and situations.-
"Religion gives me contentment and piece of mind because it provides all the answers to life's questions and situations."
In what way does it provide answers, rather than uninformed theories? -
The answers are not uninformed in my opinion. As i believe Islam is the truth and reality of all existance, I believe in what God and His Messenger say, and i have full confidence in it.
There are so many reasons to believe that Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was a Prophet and Messenger of God and many reasons why i believe that the Qur'an is God's word. Once you believe this, you believe in everything God and His Messenger say..and that is comforting
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The name of this post = completely and utter dependence on the person.
Happiness, just like any other feeling or association, does not have a definition. As Sean Penn's character, Father Brown, said in We're No Angels, "If that's what helps you, then do it!" -
It depends on what you believe. It's not religion that makes ppl happy -
I think for ignorant people it is..
you might like my blog.
im an athiest btw..
cazywaz.blogspot.com/
i only have one follower
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Religion, just doesn't work for me, to many hate vibes going on but hey Love now that makes me happy. So if you are talking about love as a religion. Taking care of those who cannot help themselves, sharing and caring about your fellow man. Giving your best. Then I believe then I am in. It is all about the Love.
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Again, the distinction seems to me to lay between the (idealistic) neoplatonian viewpoint and the (realistic) Aristolian viewpoint. Most everyone is neoplatonian,as are probably 95 percent of Christians, who more precisely go about waving Kants' categorical moral imperative stick.
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Just because most people believe it doesn't make it true.
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Agreed!
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You are introducing a very subjective element here. This topic of discussion cannot be looked at objectively.
When discussing the topic of religion most people get scared to comment in a negative way. They are scarred of the unknown, scared to rebel because of the fear that was created by some Religions. e.g Christianity: You will go to Hell.
Personally religion does not make me happy but it serves as a safeguard. I would rather believe and have faith and find out that it wasn't true, as opposed to not believe and not have faith to find out that it was true.-
@Kingjoe
If you're going to use Pasqual's Wager as your safeguard then what you have isn't faith, but a bet. You don't believe in something because it's safe, or just in case, or because it doesn't hurt; you believe something because it's true. Rationalization isn't faith, it's just playing both sides of the fence because you lack the courage of conviction. -
Maybe a poor choice of word on my behalf. My Bad. But you get the gist. I'm sitting on the fence or making a bet if thats how you see it and when the time comes i will find out whether my bet will pay off or not.
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Right, but that's not belief; so can you derive any happiness or comfort from your "religion"?
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Kingjoe, religions are not just any old lies - lies they are because they were invented by man, whether for altruistic or manipulative reasons - you are never ever going to find out which position is 'the truth'. But anyway, carry on hedging your bets, its much easier than thinking, or searching for truths that sit easily with the true Kingjoe.
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saiffaroogi,
Your temper,language and ego, tells us all we need to know about your religion. -
Are you really searching or looking to put down those who practice any religion?
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wrong place
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I believe religiously in the power of rational thought to change things on this earth. The power to make the rich richer; to discover the systems of social science that will make the cities better places to live; to invent the weapons that can deter enemies from sending their armies, or flatten their cities if they do; to work out how to grow enough food to feed the growing population; methods to control birth, if that is what the individual wants; to use statistics to understand better the things no individual can see from a single viewpoint.
The list is endless. Give Religion to individuals too feeble minded to employ rational thought; too scared not to believe in god and his 'after-life; too conditioned by upbringing to think independently.
It's not their fault. -
Also, it's the shepherds who break down a neighbour's fence - not the sheep.
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ummmm, pretty sure we addressed the fact that what you don't want to call religion actually is, many many times, in multiple posts above you.
Just sayin...
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AND SEARCH IT THE WORD -
I have to say that religion in general is very frustrating and confusing!
all those rules! and exceptions!.. and they are always changing!
to give perspective in Antioch people that acted like Jesus "Christ" were called Christians.... Now... Christians do not act like Jesus "Christ" They most often act like the Pharasees and the Saducees did. Ironically Jesus really gave those guys a hard time...
My experience... I was hopelessly addicted to pornography... It nearly destroyed my life in several ways... I was addicted to the point of seriously distructive behavior... I went 19 years struggling with this... I joined peer groups, accountability programs, bought software, confessed to others... everything that "Religion" teaches you to do. Finally I gave up trying to quit, I came to grips with the fact that I could not do it and being thoroughly convinced of that fact begged "GOD" to free me from the addiction. Today I have been addiction free for 3 years and have no compulsion whatsoever.. my marriage is improved, My mind is pure, and my heart is peacefull... because of unexplainable incidents such as this... the entire remainder of my existence is devoted to finding out more about the "Being" that can change things so drastically in an instant. I call Him "God".. and I believe in Jesus because I identify with his nature that is described in history. Everything that he taught resonates within me and speaks of freedom, freedom from hate, dispair, anger, futility, sarcasm, cynicism, and all of the things that I want to be free from... and one by one they disappear as I learn more and more about this "Jesus"
Seek truth my friends... not to disprove it, but for the sake of knowing it... and you will find freedom.-
I appreciate your comment.
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Outstanding! Thanks for the quick testimony of your life. Although, to some it may sound cliche, I too, was once lost and now I am found.
I didn't even think about God for most of my life. I was a pleasure junkie...and still struggle with some aspects of that. However, my hope is in the Lord. I give it up to Him and I have never been the same! After the transformational power that came from accepting Him, I can not deny God!
...and people talk about wanting proof!
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Religion = (Pain+ Pain +Denial/ humility x happiness)^Nirvana -
hi...come here say -
Religion = Happiness is quite a statement. I mean it is like saying life = joy. It isn't always true. I am a scientologist and that doesn't mean I am running around with a permasmile on my face being oblivious to misery and problems. Maybe Scientology is a different type of religion and hard to compare with others. But for me it increases my potential happiness because in many cases where I have problems and sad times, I have a little opening where I know I can get some answers and that will inevitably help me to get happier.
I guess religion = hope would be a better statement. It gives one a direction and thus something to postulate for in the future. Something more right, something more honest, something more happy, and most of all something to live up to. I guess that is what makes people think religion = happiness.
The ignorance is bliss thing about religion is pretty far from the truth. Most religions work hard at trying to help others from misery, pain, denial etc. And I count them as the ones that do most about the situations. Others may watch it on TV (and I do too) and they reflect about it and think deep thoughts. Most religions take an active part in going to the places of misery and helping the people get a purpose and a reason to live better, which is the first thing to do when trying to help someone (i.e. there is no point healing someone who doesn't want to live - he will inevitably get back in the same state sooner or later).
There we go, that was my 5 cents.
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Scientology... Where to begin.
For a start I quote the man himself. Ron L Hubbard: -
"You don't get rich writing science fiction. If you want to get rich, you start a religion"
I am an SP OT8 wanna be :-) (SP - Suppressive person, OT8 - Operating Thetan - one of the highest levels of this ology). This is the stage they tell you about Xenu and how aliens are amongst us (which I believe, but I am not required to give away hundreds of thousands of dollars to be told this).
Regarding religion, I guess Scientology, if you can call it a religion, sums up just how susceptible and gullible people can be.
Here's a video on youtube they tried to ban of Tom Cruise talking a load of gobbledegook
www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFBZ_uAbxS0
Here is a transcript of Hubbard himself talking in person about Xenu our alien friend.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHoSrr_UQ3Y
Because I am questioning Scientology, does this mean I am going to be assimilated... I dearly hope so. I could do with a change to my droll Saturday afternoons. Come and get me.
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or religion = wars -
"Most religions take an active part in going to the places of misery and helping the people get a purpose and a reason to live better",
Yes indeed, MARCOZ when what they need is food, clean water, medical help, and decent governance. Yes indeed, you teach them a repressive philosophy when what they need is a MEANS to live better, not YOUR reasons. You make me want to puke.-
I guess you never noticed how many time religious organizations go out and give food and shelter for free to those in need. Teaching them philosophy is so much less important than basic requirements.
PS: It is one thing to disagree with a viewpoint. It is quite another to have a physical reaction to it.
[;-]
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@SolReka
Thanks for your view. Well there was my 5 cents to the topic. Didn't intend this to be a debate on the pro's and con's of Scientology.
I find it usefull and practical as I wrote. And it helps me, but that's my viewpoint and I wont impose it on anyone.
However if you really want to know what we beleive etc it is a lot more efficient to pick up a book of Scientology and read it rather than read about it. It's a more objective approach to anything.
[;-]-
@Marcoz
"a lot more efficient to pick up a book of Scientology" - is this part of auditing aka 'the gradient' initiation?
I would happily attend a seminar if I knew it would cost me nothing, and mind manipulation wasn't used.
This ties in with corfubob's comment. "convert poor people abroad, and the methods used" - this is indeed the basis for any cult/religion - to convert the susceptible and vulnerable members of society.
Thinking about it, yeah I would like to attend a scientology initiation, so that I can test my resilience to Hubbard's mind manipulation techniques.
Here is an interesting article on the practices/initiation of Scientology:-
www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/Secrets/TR/critique.html
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Yes, Markoz,actually I did notice that kind and caring christians give their time and effort into helping needy people locally. And I admire them for this too, and yes, the organisations behind them foot the bill from contributions made by their followers. And it's a good way to recruit followers. My physical reaction to the efforts throughout history to convert poor people abroad, and the methods used, remains. The good that evil men do will always be a paradox for humanists like me.
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In Galatians 5: 22 we are told that one of the fruits of the Spirit is joy. I believe Joy is far different than happiness. For me happiness is something that can come and go but joy can be with us even in the worse of situations. For example when my wife had breast cancer she was not happy taking chemo and radiation but she continued to be joyful.
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Happiness is finding a meaning in your life. Religions usually aim to aid that, some people don't find a meaning in their life easily, religion is mean to aid them
If you don't have a reason to live, live for a god.
Yes that does sound depressing.
Cheers. -
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True, many studies has proven that religious people are happier. My take on this is religion teaches one to believe in something bigger than self. For some reason just about every religion in the world preaches against dwelling on ones self.
I too agree that true joy and happiness can only come from serving and doing for others. Sure, caring about self is important, but having all of the wealth and riches in the world matters little if there is no one to share it with. -
here is a good point, people need god to scare away the boogie man.... watch tinyurl.com/bg4a7q
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Perhaps there is some value in introducing these discussions to Christian groups and other religious groups at BC. Just in case that is the case here's the main link to all the religious discussion groups www.blogcatalog.com/groups/tag/religion
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I think everyone has a desire for something bigger than themselves. That's why tribes across the world ALWAYS have a god they worship...whether it's a chicken bone (true story), the god of the water or sun or wind, and on and on. Look at history...the Egyptians worshiped many gods, Persians, and every nation has worshiped something or someone. I believe that there is a truth out there. In today's world we think that science is science and absolute truth but in the realm of religion/spirituality we tend to think that whatever works for you works for you, just leave me out of it...I'll find what works for me. But there has to be something that is true right? It can't be different for everyone. There either is a God or their isn't. Obviously there are MANY false religions/gods out there...so what is true? There has to be an absolute truth.
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[In today's world we think that science is science and absolute truth]
Bullshit. Science is and always will be inductive. Nobody makes this claim except the people who want to object to it.
[Obviously there are MANY false religions/gods out there...so what is true? There has to be an absolute truth.]
If X is the number of religions, and X-N is the number of false religions (N is a constant while X is a variable), then as X approaches infinity the N becomes meaningless and the whole thing approaches infinity. If 1/(X-N) represents our chance of finding the "right" religion, then as X approaches infinity, our chance approaches zero.
Is there an absolute truth? Will we ever find it? Probability's not on our side. -
@voodoo your math does not make sense at all.. N cannot be constant while x is a variable! if the number of false religions increase then the total number of religions increase also. this actually shows that as x approaches infinity that N would reveal the absolute truth.
also the definition of an infinity is an unending completeness.. wouldn't by definition infinity eventually encompass every single possibility.. thus becoming the answer?
just some thoughts... -
lim x-> infinty of x-n/x = 1.
I was trying to describe this without invoking calculus.
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Religion is the unscientific Breading Ground of unhappiness.
Happiness lives in Human mind at the lap of optimistic philosophy of lifeā¦.
So
Optimistic Philosophy= Happiness
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Let us start with two things here : Religion and Happiness
Religion is a set of rules/ways to arrive at certain place which people
consider as a place of happiness (heaven)
Happiness is a state of being happy in one's feelings.
This is a result of external stimuli. Thus, it needs stimuli to make people happy.
Stimuli come to us to move our senses. These senses create our feelings (one of them is happiness).
So, my conclusion religion is only a tool to have such a state of feeling. Actually there are many ways to achieve happiness.
Be sure that the world serve us two things which are contradictory.
Just grab them, possess them, you will deserve what you feel
Anyway, what lasts forever? nothing, even your feelings
Then, who dares to love forever? or to be happy forever? -
Religion is a very deep and complex subject. It is too general to say it makes people happy. It makes SOME people happy and SOME people unhappy. It is very much a personal thing.
A belief... a faith is all some people have, especially if they are stuck in a hopeless situation they can't get out of. A prayer or something similar uplifts them.
I know many people who manage fine without religion. What I would say about faith/religion is that in most cases it is not practiced as it should be practiced, hence all the conflict in the world today. -
religion may or may not make you happy. depends on what you believe and what you do with those beliefs. for me, my religion is a personal relationship w/God and yes, that does make me happy. -
Organised religion is surrounded by expectations, strictures, etc. and sometimes does more harm than good.
Your own interpretation of religion/worship/spirituality, whatever you want to call it can make you happy. -
it all depends
extreme religion = unhappiness
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