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Religious Belief Vs. Facts, What Holds More Truth for you?
Posted by lotusb • 12/17/08 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: religion
When it comes to the bible, what do you know to be truth and what is known to be myth? Do you blindly follow what your told in church or otherwise, without taking your "salvation" into your own hands and finding the truth out for yourself?
Where do you stand?
Example:
Fact: Christ was born sometime between May and August.
Myth: Christ was born December 25th
Question: Why is that ok?
User Comments
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I don't follow blindly, and love to explore both the religious and scientific/historical aspects of many religions.
How is the falsification and exploitation of Christ's birth a justified sin, but adultery is not?
I'm not following your questions here. Who says that falsifying Christ's birth or celebrating him is a sin, but adultery is not a sin?-
Religion based on facts is called science.
Science based on faith is called religion.
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I am a fact-based person. Belief, for me, does not happen without fact and/or valid logic.
I am not clear on your question. Who says either one is a sin? -
I updated the question...
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Thank you.
I think most people think it's OK because it has become culturally acceptable to celebrate this particular holiday on that particular day. It also coincides with many other holidays, and has become a rather secular holiday, and rather than upset the entire social construct of the holiday, people simply celebrate then.
Essentially, most people know that's not when Christ was born, and most people know that Constantine combined the Pagan mythology of Mythra and the Solstice to include and/or become Christian in accordance to his new found faith. But they accept it anyway.
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Some people believe the truth has been revealed to them and some won't accept anything but fact, but then even facts are sometimes invented or restructured.
I believe there are some things we do not know for a fact. -
We have a group for this kind of discussion:
www.blogcatalog.com/group/religious-debate-and-discussions
Maybe you should ask there and then we won't have the discussions board cluttered up with this kind of thing...it's getting kind of old...-
Oh NO!!! I broke the law!!
Seriously, how much is this one thread "cluttering" up the the dicussion board...? -
How many religion threads are there on the discussion board? Aren't you sick of talking about the same damn thing again and again?
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Lol...It's just a thread. If your sick of talking about it then beat it kid.
Life is more than a discussion board, dont let it ruin your day. -
@SiuilARuin
If you don't like the topic leave!
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O.K. You specifically mentioned the Bible as the reference toward "religious belief" so... I will answer according to this parameter alone:
Q. "When it comes to the bible, what do you know to be truth and what is known to be myth?"
A. Jesus Christ is The Truth, The Way and The Life.
Q. "Do you blindly follow what your told in church or otherwise, without taking your "salvation" into your own hands and finding the truth out for yourself?
A.
Part I: God makes it clear that believers are the "church" not buildings - because the Spirit resides in those who have been "born of the Spirit" not of the flesh.
Part II: God says He has revealed Himself to man in these "last days' through the Son of God, Jesus Christ. He is the Way and The Truth. God also says that, "If a man will seek Him out - he will find Him!"
Examples:
Fact: Christ was born sometime between May and August.
Myth: Christ was born December 25th
Correct! These things are based on man made religious tradition - not the truths held in the Word of God! Indeed, Christ could NOT have been born in the winter months because the sheep would not have been grazing in the hills at that time of year when the angels of heaven appeared to them announcing the birth of Jesus Christ!
There are a number of religious myths surrounding Christmas that are traditions too... here is another one:
Myth: Three wise men visited the baby Jesus in a manger.
Fact: The bible says there were wise men (plural) who came from the east - no number attached and they were scientist too - understanding the times based on astronomical observations and knowing the prophecies of Isaiah that Israel's deliverer was to be born in Bethlehem!
Myth: Jesus was a babe in the manger when the "wise men" came.
Fact: Jesus was at least two years old and residing in a home with his mother and father, Mary and Joseph when the "wise men' came to him! King Herod has sent out a edict to slaughter every boy child from two years old and under in order that the King of Israel would NOT live!
There's more too... this is why I read the Bible and not rely on religious traditions! Because... "faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God!"
Cool! -
I treat Bible myth like any dream. Rightly understood, it doesn't lie. Wrongly understood, it will make liars out of all of us. -
Q: When it comes to the bible, what do you know to be truth and what is known to be myth? Do you blindly follow what your told in church or otherwise, without taking your "salvation" into your own hands and finding the truth out for yourself?
Is this what you are referring to?
Philippians 2:12-13
"Wherefore, my beloved, as ye have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling.
For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure. "
Work out your own salvation is Paul's exhortation to the Church at Philippi labour in obedience in the word to make sure that they truly have salvation. The Greek word translated work is [katergazomai] meaning work to the fullest or to completion.
A: I am not possessed by blind faith. I don't require a savior and I don't believe one exists.
Ideas, theories and beliefs are not necessarily truths.
A belief is not an idea held by the mind; it is an idea that holds the mind.
We don't see things as they are; we see things as we are.
I abhor religious imitation based on past perversions of universal truths.
I uphold the principle of independent investigation of truth. -
@lotusb:
I don't blindly follow anyone other than GOD. It's called faith.
As for his birthday I don't care when the SAVIOUR as long as he was born.
U see my b-day is in nov. Well I don't really celebrate it until June because I love to go camping. That is my birthday present every single year we go camping in june. We have b-day cake and everything.So what is wrong with celebrating the LORD JESUS CHRIST'S birhtday in dec.-
Aside from the fact that Christmas has nothing to do with Jesus birth and that it's actually based on a pagan winter celebration that was celebrated with festivities that included public bisexuality and drukeness (not unlike today...lol) ASIDE from the fact that almost the entire nativity story is falsified...I would think that if you follow God and claim his son to be your savior you would want to honor him in every way possible. Rather then "blindly" following a commercial trend that was developed to take your attention off of the "meaning" if Christmas and redirect it into gross over spending.
In my opinion that is blindly following. But thats just MO. -
"a pagan winter celebration that was celebrated with festivities that included public bisexuality"
I've never known anyone to celebrate Yule like that...
Where did you get this little nugget of information? -
Yeah, I gotta wonder the same thing? I mean, homo/bisexuality wasn't frowned upon, but it had nothing to do with the holiday, either
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@anok
homo/bisexuality wasn't frowned upon by whom? The Winter Solstice is/was celebrated by various cultures... -
Ancient Pagan cultures.
Sexuality was not vilified until Judeo-Christian religions vilified it. Many Pagan/Heathen cultures fully embraced homo/bisexuality. -
@Anok
Care to be more specific than 'everyone other than the Jews'?!
It's a common misconception, but most cultures were not all for homosexuality, especially between men as it was often considered to be shameful to take on the 'woman's lot' by being penetrated.
Zoroastrianism (the oldest monotheistic religion) condemns it; most Greek city states outlawed the penetration of a free man; The Romans went from condemning it, to accepting, to condemning it again...
Which Ancient Pagan cultures do you mean? -
Saturnalia
The problem started when Christianity became the official religion of the Roman Empire and Constantine set about replacing the suddenly politically incorrect Pagan festivals with the now politically correct Christian ones.
The fine old feast of Saturnalia, on December 25th, was a difficult choice because nothing remotely Christian happened then but he needed to unify his empire and that's the date he chose. So Christ’s birthday, which had obviously been presumed to be in springtime when, shepherds were in the fields by night tending their newly born lambs, was moved to replace Saturn’s day.
Saturnalia was a happy time of gluttony and licentiousness intended to set everyone up for the barren months of winter. At Saturnalia, people got merry on the past autumn’s harvest of new wine, ate the animals that couldn’t be kept through the winter, and stocked up their fat cells. A good time was had by all.
The English burned Yule logs and decorated their rooms with branches of mistletoe, holly and Ivy. This has now been incorporated into the festivities. Saint Nicholas lightened things up by re-introducing gift giving. The Christmas tree is courtesy of Germany (tannebaum).
Indigenous people the world over celebrated Winter Solstice in various ways. The seasonal significance of the winter solstice is in the reversal of the gradually lengthening nights and shortening days.
Celebrating Winter Solstice and incorporating the feasting and friendship part of Saturnalia, is growing steadily stronger with each passing century, while non-commercialized celebration of Christmas grows weaker every year. IMO as Christians believe in the risen Christ - they ought to be celebrating at Pentecost and at Easter. -
I might be wrong but I think Constantine accepted Christianity on his deathbed www.davidmacd.com/catholic/did_constantine_invent_catholicism.htm
So, out of technicality he may not have believed in it but accepted it to save his people. -
Ok, there are some people here with a shocking grasp of history!
Constantine was baptised on his deathbed, but after having a vision that he should march under the chi rho symbol at the Battle of Milvian Bridge(312) and winning this battle, he converted. Constantine did not Christianise the Empire, he just brought Christianity into the limelight and passed an edict that the religion should be tolerated.
Mistletoe is a Druidic custom and therefore not English, but Gallic(Celtic).
Yule Logs are a Germanic custom.
Saint Nicholas was a contemporary of Constantine and has nothing to do with Christmas. -
Although I haven't studied Zoroastrianism thoroughly, I have yet to come across anything stating they object to homosexuality.
www.religioustolerance.org/zoroastr2.htm
Ancient Pagan faiths vary, as we both know there are hundreds upon hundreds of them. From written texts, historical finds, and passed down practices we do know that the marriage practices and rights of many (I never said all) included polygamist, polyandrous marriages, as well as homosexual marriages. (I'm talking about way, way before Rome). Some cultures openly encouraged homosexual/bisexual relationships outside of their traditional marriages, and allowed group sex to occur regularly.
Many ancient rituals as well, included sexual rites of various natures.
As for St Nick - yes, he was a real person who has to do with the Christian version of Christmas. His life being after that of Constantine has no bearing on his introduction into Christian holiday rituals.
Also, Constantine was Rome's first Christian leader - he allowed both Pagans and Christians to live together, and was the person who began combining Pagan and Christian holidays to suit everyone's needs (Namely, Christmas - which was the birth of Mythra as well as the winter solstice, and Easter, which we know was the spring equinox fertility rituals. -
@Anok
A lot of modern Zoroastrians are more relaxed with certain aspects of their religion (as with most ancient religions that have survived), but there is a passage in the Vendidad that says homosexuals are essentially demons. -
I've read some of the Parsee stuff, it's good. It's very old and an addition like that could have come from anywhere
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Facts facts facts. Religious belief is just a collective opinion based on superstition (and no facts) that proves nothing while making supernatural claims without evidence. -
@lotusb: ok so like u don't know me."CHRISTmas" has everything to do w/ JESUS'S birth. Hellooooo CHRISTmas. Like I said earlier I don't care what day my savior was born on. All that matters is he was born. So us christians
decide to celebrate his birth on dec. 25th. I am sure that doesn't offend him so long as I still worship him (wich I do).
Maybe u should read my blog.(hollyb27.blogspot.com) I can't afford to follow any "commerciaal trend" this year,but,I still do believe in celebrating the day of my savior's birth (whatever day that may be).
I will celebrate it w/ a smile on my face and thank the almighty GOD that my
girls aren't sitting 5 minutes away in memphis,TN at a hospital called st.jude. I will say thankyou JESUS for letting me be here right now w/ my girls and husband.I am gonna thank my lord for letting me have the little problems I do have because it could always be worse.-
Happy Yule to you, too.
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Actually I don't give a stuff when Jesus was born. But I'll celebrate Christmas anyway and I see his birth as the birth of Love and Compassion, in the same way as I would celebrate Gautama's birthday as a representation of those same very virtues. The bible is full of dribble as well as wisdom, I'll take the wisdom and where possible i'll try and put that wisdom into action, and the rest I'll leave for others to argue about and build cults both big and small around.
I guess the thing with the bible is it reminds us that there is something doing something and it can start us on a journey and point us to whatever God might or might not be. It enables us to question why we are here. To believe the bible word for word is a serious error of judgment because it has been tampered with, but there is enough there to arouse an interest in God. If we become Christians that's fine, if we walk away then that's fine too, but not question in the first place both as a Christian or non Christian is where I think a serious problem comes in.-
Red panda I could hug you. That is exactly how I feel.
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Guitarist: how is it that u come up with those words. I have been saying the exact same thing in about ten million different ways on about ten million different threads.(u have a right to believe in what ever u want,but so do I)and people still come at me w/ guns a blazing. I just don't get it.
HollytheHousewife -
Hi HollytheHousePersonFemaleType
I'm not sure if that's an insult or a compliment. But regardless, hope santa turns up.
SmileyShiley
thanks, appreciated -
and FemaleHousePerson
you are not a cute red panda so you'll have to work harder. Try swapping to a polar bear or something
edited
Hi my name is Holly, any seafood platters for me? Just throw the odd raw seafood my way and I'll be happy.
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@lotusb: Why even ask the question if you don't believe in GOD???
Why do so many people answer when they don't believe in GOD???
Maybe I am misunderstanding you,but what it looks like to me is you are wanting to be justified in your non-belif and if that is the case why not just start a discussion like
ATTN: all athiest,non-christians,agnostics come visit my thread and we can talk about how we don't belive in GOD.
That way you can filter out all of the believers and have a discussion with the people you think are right in what they say.-
Because the Christian holidays that are celebrated now are actually Pagan holidays.
Many Pagans celebrate their holidays with accuracy, and happiness. "Christmas" happens to be one of them. So is "Easter".
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I don't call myself a Christian, by any means. However, I cherish the Bible for it's insight and wisdom. You can have strong faith in the "word" without having to believe every literal word written. Take faith in its meaning and message, look at the big picture, and don't scrutinize over the details. It has been translated and passed down through so many hands, you just need to read through the lines, and the lines will read to your heart. -
To me, the Christianization of the Yule period into "Christmas" is a bastardization of the observance. Ditto for turning Ostara into a Christian "Easter."
If there is anything I can connect to December 25 in mythic history, its the birth of Tammuz, or to be more accurate to the Sumerian story, the creation of Asushunamir, the hermaphrodeity who rescued Inanna from the Kingdom of Erishkigal, ruler of the underworld and was eirself trapped in that realm as a result. Even so, Enki created Asushunamir, not as a baby, but as a fully developed being.
Within a Judeo-Christian context, it makes far more sense to keep with the tradition that places the birth of Messiah consistent with the first of Tishri and the death and resurrection concurrent with Pesach.
The historic Saint Nicolas has little to do with the modern Santa who derives from what is now Finland. Nicolas was a Byzantine in north Asia Minor who was known for generosity and a rescue of certain young women from the sex trade of his day. It's safe to say that he didn't wear a red suit or drive a sled with reindeer. For that matter, the countries more aligned with Roman traditions depicted Saint Nicolas as a venerable old man dressed more like a pastor who examines the record of the children in advance of Christmas. -
@ Anok:
ok Anok.so does that mean I can still say merry christmas while you say merry pagen holiday w/ accuracy? I still don't understand y so many people hate that I celebrate my savior's birth on Dec. 25. y does that offend people so badly?-
Who said anything about hate? You asked why people who don't believe in your God celebrate Christmas - and I answered.
It's commonly accepted hat Christians celebrate Christmas on December 25th - I don't personally care -
well i care because i want my presents on the right day. my wife is some weird European nationality like Polish or something and she's got crazy ideas about giving presents on christmas eve, this is darn right annoying and totally dysfunctional
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@lynn
like I said earlier y don't you just start your own thread and call it
Attn: all non believers of christ come to my thread and let's talk about how we don't believe. I'm serious isn't that just such an easier way. That way no one has to fight or argue about what they believe.-
This isn't a thread about the faith aspect of Christianity - this thread is specifically about the myths in the bible versus the real stories behind them, and what people do or don't do and why.
Why are you so offended?
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It is offensive because these traditions were stolen and some people today still believe the bible is fact and not myth, which they believe makes it ok for them to celebrate Christmas as they do and yet they put down other faiths, heathens and pagans-
some of he text is so beautiful I can weep tears of joy, some of the text is so repulsive that I would like to meet the person that added the nonsense and get them to eat a rice paper bible every morning for a year until they recognise that the content indigestible to human beings
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Amen
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perfect, well said.
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Religious Belief Vs. Facts, What Holds More Truth for you?
That's easy, facts of course, by definition.-
Morg
Can you add a little more -
@morgantj
What do you say to these?
Ideas, theories and beliefs are not necessarily truths.
A belief is not an idea held by the mind; it is an idea that holds the mind.
We don't see necessarily things as they are; we see things as we are. -
acousticguitarist, well a "fact" implies a particular truth that is known, and can be proven and demonstrated. A "belief," religious or not can be in something that can either be true or false, but the believer obviously doesn't "know," which is why they can only "believe." So it follows that known "facts" of course hold more truth value then beliefs, because facts are by definition, based on something known to be true.
timethief, not sure where you are going with those statements but I will give you my thoughts on them.
1. Ideas, theories and beliefs are not necessarily truths. - I agree, and I elaborated on this in my reply to acousticguitarist.
2. A belief is not an idea held by the mind; it is an idea that holds the mind. - Couple things here, first, I prefer to use the term "brain" instead of "mind" since the term "mind" tends to be too elusive to even follow. Second, I do think the brain is what hosts an idea and/or belief, and an idea or belief does have the potential to hold the brain hostage to other ideas if one holds to strongly to it and ignores opposing evidence to it, but it does not mean that all beliefs do that. Some may, and some may not, and it is a bit more elaborate then just that.
3. We don't see necessarily things as they are; we see things as we are. - It is true we are limited to the looking through the filter, bottleneck, or looking-glass of our senses. We do see things as we are in the sense that we are limited to our conditioning and programming which will always reflect the perspective of our self. While we may not see things as they are all the time, there may be times we also do, but we would have no way to verify that, as we cannot step outside of ourselves and our perspectives and sense to percieve these things without our filter and bottleneck of senses. Which leads to the famous question, can anything really be "known?" -
Thanks Morg, I always like your common sense approach.
And I'm sure you'll agree with the fact that Santa is real. If not, who gave me those presents all those years?
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truth = prove with eveidence that GOD really exist just look at yourself ( Close your eyes and feel all your sences)
Myth = you dont believe that really GOD exist
Salvation = Heaven, Earth and Hell
( everyhting is in your hand hand, If dont follow the Rules of God you dont have respect for yourself.)
everythingforfreenow.blogspot.com-
I looked at myself and noticed a lot of design flaws (intestine area is completely vulnerable). I tried to feel with all my sences, but I don't have any.
My senses, on the other hand, revealed nothing.
There are many truths out there. Most are found in physics books, although they are not infallible. I don't see how "I don't believe that any god exists" is a myth. You could claim that "God doesn't exist" is a myth (to which you would have to provide substantial evidence), but my disbelief is necessarily true.
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Blindcat:
Although I have a great interest in God or whatever you want to name it, your argument doesn't stand up. A 10 year old would rip it apart. -
Nice blog >-
que?
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Bible is book with many positive messages.
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as well as many negative messages.
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and lies too.
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@guitarist: first of all it isn't HollytheFEMALE TYPE PERSON. It's HollytheHousewife.just wanted to clear that up mm k.2nd I never asked u if I was cute REMEMBER THAT ISN'T WHAT THE THREAD IS ABOUT. So u can take ur little polar bear and give it to someone else who wants to hide behind a cute furry animal.
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@ Anok:
The question was religious belif vs. fact What holds more truth for u?
So I said my faith holds more truth. That is when everyone started in on my belifs being wrong. I am not telling anybody their belifs are wrong. I am certainly not putting up pix of polar bears saying throw raw meat and leftovers at me. That is y I am offended. I have a thick skin I can take it the problem is when I dish it out people report me and get my comments removed.-
Who said your beliefs were wrong?
I didn't.
AG didn't.
Voodoo didn't.
I responded to this question:
Why even ask the question if you don't believe in GOD???
Why do so many people answer when they don't believe in GOD???
Maybe I am misunderstanding you,but what it looks like to me is you are wanting to be justified in your non-belif and if that is the case why not just start a discussion like
ATTN: all athiest,non-christians,agnostics come visit my thread and we can talk about how we don't belive in GOD.
No one has attacked you or your beliefs.
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"The question was religious belief vs. fact What holds more truth for u?"
Alright lets try this again.
My religious beliefs contain myth, fact and faith so I would say both hold truth for me.
As for this:
"truth = prove with eveidence that GOD really exist just look at yourself ( Close your eyes and feel all your sences)
Ok, I agree, except as far as I am concerned God is a She (Goddess)
Myth = you dont believe that really GOD exist
ummm no a Myth is by definition
–noun
1. a traditional or legendary story, usually concerning some being or hero or event, with or without a determinable basis of fact or a natural explanation, esp. one that is concerned with deities or demigods and explains some practice, rite, or phenomenon of nature.
2. stories or matter of this kind: realm of myth.
3. any invented story, idea, or concept: His account of the event is pure myth.
4. an imaginary or fictitious thing or person.
5. an unproved or false collective belief that is used to justify a social institution.
Salvation = Heaven, Earth and Hell
K, well again as far as I am concerned there is no Hell, so that's out the window
( everyhting is in your hand hand, If dont follow the Rules of God you dont have respect for yourself.)"
Respect
–noun
1. a particular, detail, or point (usually prec. by in): to differ in some respect.
2. relation or reference: inquiries with respect to a route.
3. esteem for or a sense of the worth or excellence of a person, a personal quality or ability, or something considered as a manifestation of a personal quality or ability: I have great respect for her judgment.
4. deference to a right, privilege, privileged position, or someone or something considered to have certain rights or privileges; proper acceptance or courtesy; acknowledgment: respect for a suspect's right to counsel; to show respect for the flag; respect for the elderly.
5. the condition of being esteemed or honored: to be held in respect.
6. respects, a formal expression or gesture of greeting, esteem, or friendship: Give my respects to your parents.
7. favor or partiality.
8. Archaic. a consideration.
–verb (used with object)
9. to hold in esteem or honor: I cannot respect a cheat.
10. to show regard or consideration for: to respect someone's rights.
11. to refrain from intruding upon or interfering with: to respect a person's privacy.
12. to relate or have reference to.
—Idioms
13. in respect of, in reference to; in regard to; concerning.
14. in respect that, Archaic. because of; since.
15. pay one's respects,
a. to visit in order to welcome, greet, etc.: We paid our respects to the new neighbors.
b. to express one's sympathy, esp. to survivors following a death: We paid our respects to the family.
16. with respect to, referring to; concerning: with respect to your latest request.
Sorry don't see any reference to God or Goddess in there -
belif+faith=JESUS CHRIST! for me. I don't care what u believe that is your right. How do the words MERRY CHRISTMAS or HAPPY HANNEKUAH offend u. I have no problem with u comeing back and saying HAVE A HAPPY HOLIDAY if that is what u want to do. If u wanna celebrate winter solstice,kwanza,peagans, heathens,or mythology go for it. My point is christians can still celebrate christmas.
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HollyPolarBear
I like Jesus very much but I disagree that 'belief+faith = Jesus'
belief = any idea, it may be based in truth or it could be a loopy idea
faith = the hope that whatever belief you have is truly the truth, it has a lot more to do with hope and wishing, and yes it may one day turn out to be a Truth of some point.
Jesus = the embodiment of compassion
Christ= something that permeates the whole of creation
For me = in this case your right to have an opinion
I don't think your equation adds up, but it's wonderful that you have some sort of an opinion and a trust in something much more interesting than Macdonalds fries
Did you like the Polar Bear I sent you? -
Hey, how come you don't have a fun name for me?
I feel left out
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@ Guitarplayer person: did u not look at all the messages.All I can say bout micky d's comment is that I will pray for u.
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Thanks Holly, I appreciate your prayers. It's a kind and genuine thought.
I am very comfortable with Jesus and whether he exists and what his role is, however I do find the supporting arguments that people give about him very weak.
I am most fascinated with his travels in India which for some reason the church seems to avoid. -
Holly
I'll step back through my reasons for saying you need a Polar Bear
Further up you responded just beneath Shiley, you said "Guitarist: how is it that u come up with those words. I have been saying the exact same thing in about ten million different ways on about ten million different threads.(u have a right to believe in what ever u want,but so do I)and people still come at me w/ guns a blazing. I just don't get it.
"
I was giving you a reason why I got away with saying the same thing as you, whereas you seemed to be struggling with getting a friendly response.
So I said, ÿou need to get a Polar Bear avatar. And the logic is, because people love polar bears they would enjoy feeding it.
This was all done in a friendly manner.
I still have one going very cheap and I'll even include the eBook "How to wow your friends online with a Polar Bear".
Come on it's Christmas, Cheer up :-)
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@ guitar person player I think:
u have ur definition of faith and I have mine.
FAITH=something u believe in but,can't see. Except I do see and u don't.
faith for me has nothing to do w/ hope.-
To say you see and I don't is a very limited perception.
I see the life of Jesus very differently. I see him as a blessing to humanity. A template of compassion and our potential. I see a great Entity that belongs to the whole of humanity not just those that have claimed him for themselves. I see him as someone who walks through time and space, not limited by the petty thoughts of men or the restrictions known by science. I see him as someone who belongs to all worlds, not just just human. I see him as forgiving, tolerant and not imprisoned by religious people who believe they have the answer. I see him as a dear friend.
I am not a member of any exclusive club that claims to be saved because I have built up a belief system based on the limited thoughts of those that do not have the courage to question whether what they are told is true, complete or whether they are being controlled by others. For me the most important issue at the moment for Christians is to remove all pedophiles in church groups, of which i was a victim of at 11 years old.
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I believe in Law of Attraction! And I can tell you the simplest answer. While using law of attraction, we must have to follow some rules. Ummm... like
1.whole belief in your dream like what you want, it was already happened!
2.You have to tell universe what you want and leave it!
3.Gratitude plays very important part in a law of attraction etc.
So consider law of attraction as a scientific view!
Now, ancient peoples knows the power of law of attraction. But its difficult for the common man and his uncontrolled mind to follow these rules.
So, the clever peoples at that time created the concept of God!!!
When you pray for a God you know that
1. you know that God is going to give what you want! (here comes your whole belief!!! in your dream!)
2. you don't ask God, how you are going to give me what I want!? You just leave all the things on him!!!
3.Gratitude!!! You are always thankful for the God! As you know that he is 100% going to give you what you want!
Now match the Law of Attraction Rules and the Concept of God!
Faith in God is the BEST way to follow the law of attraction rules! And ancient peoples knows that!
So make your choice either follow the law of attraction rules or believe in God Power. Both are the different ways of achieving one great power!!!
Request From The Bottom of My Heart!!! Please once read the Articles about the law of attraction. Or just believe in God. But don't ever engage in the topics like.... past things are facts or not!-
Hi Maria
Curiosity calling. How long have you been interested in the La of Attraction and has it genuinely had an impact
Red Panda
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Yes!!! If you know how to use it!... I have experienced the power of law of attraction. And after reading hundreds of articles on web about law of attraction and qauntum physics and several hours thinking on it, I can (101%) say that concept of God just follows the quantum physics or the law of attraction rules. Faith in God is the most easy way to follow the law of attraction rules!!!
My blog is universalmindlaws.blogspot.com-
Thanks. There's lots of peoples opinions on the web.
And your personal experience?
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@ anok
I guess u are misunderstanding.lotusb said CHRISTMAS has nothing to do w/ JESUS'S birth. That is the whole reason we christians call it christmas.
Some other "panda bear" goes completely off the subject and says I need to change my avatar into a polar bear bc I'm not cute enough to be on BC. He also wants people to throw food at me. If that isn't an attack I don't know what is. I mean this is what people want. U start some silly thread saying
duhhh I don't belive christmas has anything to do w/ christ's birth. That draws in the people like me who are strong in their faith. Then when nobody likes what I have to say u pounce on me like prey in the wild. That is fine I don't care if that is what people wanna do. I am still gonna believe in what I believe in. I was just saying it would be sooo much easier if u start a thread and call all of the non-believers to that thread. I mean call it what it is.-
Hey.
This was all in good fun, it's unfortunate you didn't see the humour, it's an Australian thing. I apologise for a misunderstanding.
I started using red panda avatar and people seemed to be much more polite to a panda picture
I also gave some very reasonable responses
Terribly sorry
Kind regards -
Slooow down for a minute....AG has a fun way of working with people - he wasn't asking people to throw food at you He was including you in his red panda joke, that's all. I felt left out that I didn't get a personal polar bear myself
Back on point, I think the point Lotus was getting at is the Christmas that is currently celebrated has very little to do with Jesus. Think about it - Santa Claus, Christmas trees, wreaths, holly, yule logs, winter time....where is Jesus in all of that?
Aside from Linus reading the birth story from the bible in "A Charlie Brown Christmas" there is very little Jesus or religion in Christmas, wouldn't you agree? It's ab it like celebrating the fourth of July on October 31st.
We celebrate it anyway - each of us for our own reasons, and that was my original answer to her question. As a Pagan, the holiday is accurate, right down to the current customs of evergreens, wreaths, and Yule logs. For Christians, it is when it was always celebrated, and so they take the time to celebrate full well knowing it's the wrong time of year etc...
Atheists celebrate a secular version filled with Frosty Snowmen and Rudolph Reindeer, and the Jewish community joins in the festivities with Chanukah. There is also Kwanzaa, too and Ramadan is just about over, and their feasts will begin.
So, I mean, who cares why you celebrate it (general you). If you do, then do, if you don't, then don't.
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I answered your question above.
As for "CHRISTMAS has nothing to do w/ JESUS'S birth" I have to agree, nothing to do with it at all.-
Oh my lord!!!! what ever yall say. I still don't get the joke though.
I guess it's a mississippi thing or a blonde thing huh???
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Look at the title:
Religious Belief Vs. Facts, What Holds More Truth?
Answers itself--unless you don't believe in facts.
Writer -
don't feel left out anok after he gives u his cute little name then he wants people to throw seafood at u or something. Sounds grrreat huh???
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Grow a sense of humor, lady.
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Yes, as a joke, being included in the fun does sound nice.
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Anok
We will be late for your Yule/Christmas lunch on the 24th of Dec
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I love it!!!
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@ voodoo:
So like would u find the sense of humor plant at HOME DEPOT??? I sure would like to grow one -
@ crystal raven: What do u not get JESUS CHRIST. Merry CHRISTmas. I swear it isn't rocket science. If a little ole blonde housewife from Mississippi can get it then y can't u.
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What does Santa Clause have to do with Jesus?
What does a Yule log have to do with Jesus?
What does a Christmas tree have to do with Jesus?
What do wreaths, boughs, bows, and presents have to do with Jesus?
What does December 25th have to do with Jesus?
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It seems to me that you people are caught up in a circular discussion that's going nowhere. Maybe it's time to consider the futility of it all.
Christmas was hijacked but that hijacking didn't kill off the celebration of Winter Solstice, Yule or Hanuka, etc. It opened the door wide to the rampant consumerism that has created an over-commercialized and unpleasant season for all concerned.
Religious Belief Vs. Facts, What Holds More Truth for you?
Religious beliefs are not by and large based on facts. Believers say they hold truth for them and they value their beliefs highly. Non-believers find either little no truth at all in religious beliefs and therefore do not value them highly or at all. They value facts. Is there really more to say on this topic that isn't about Jesus? I sure as heck hope so.-
I'm not going in a circle, well I did add someone from the Arctic Circle and the dogs have circular curls.
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So then...
Nonbelievers believe in what can be substantiated factually.
Believers believe in what can't be substantiated factually.
Hmmmm. OK.
Got it. -
Nonbeliever is a lazy way of saying "One who does not believe in the supernatural." Less syllables.
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<logic type="circular" style="Hollythehousewife">
Jesus CHRIST. AntiCHRIST. Don't you see? They're one and the same.
</logic>-
@ pandabear: OK so I owe u a big apology. I'm sorry got a little confused.
I understand now like I said it must be a ms thing. Anyway MERRY CHRISTMAS.
Ps.what u did w/ the puppies that's cute.
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yeah yeah they made up a name, Christmas, to fit what they stole, used to be called Yule or Winter Solstice, what's your point?
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@ anok:
The question should be what does Jesus have to do w/ christmas?
Answer: A savior being born who will one day make the ultimate sacrifice for me. Santa isn't real. Jesus is. I know I've said somewhere I can't afford a pot to piss in this year so santa won't be leaving a whole lot,but
I can assure you that my family knows why we are celebrating christmas.plus we know that we are so very,very blessed in our little struggle right now because it could always be so much worse. I am gonna raise my girls to always thank the good LORD for what problems we do have and always teach them that they could have it a whole lot worse. I mean Anok u have read my blog you of all people here should understand that it wasn't me that kept me in a foreclosed house for over a year. It was devine intervention at it's best.-
I have no doubts in your faith in your religion. But the original topic, as I interpreted it, was that Jesus, and Christmas seem to be two different entities, with the only thing tying them together being the day that was chosen to celebrate Jesus' birth. But that both in modern day, and even when it was created - the entirety of Christmas is really a bit of a farce.
Not the celebration of your savior's birth - but the actual day and type of celebrations that occur. I mean really, the two events have very little to do with one another.
Now, I'm going to add to this - knowing that Lotus is schooled in the JW thought (although not a current member?) I interpreted her thread that way because of the JW's interpretation of holidays as being Pagan in origin, and thus a sin to celebrate.
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Most stories in the bible are just parables, they are made up stories just to teach an important lesson. Everything in the bible can't be taken literally. Most of Jesus' stories are to teach a lesson. -
@ crystal Raven
My point is Christians celebrate the birth of christ at christmas.(duhh)-
HollytheHousewife, you seem to the center of the party here, please entertain me this question - How is that "facts" can hold less truth for you than "belief" religious or not? I'm just curious as to how you could arrived at your answer.
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oh mr.cheeseburger man: are u sure u wanna join this thread??? It hasn't been pretty.
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Thats why I'm here. To make it pretty!
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I think what all sides should be looking at is the commercialization of the holidays.
its quite sad really, whatever your faith it should be a time for family and friends and less focus on material things. -
@ morgantj: 1st I am not trying to be the center of any party I promise.
To answer ur question facts are fine they are wonderful they don't hold any less truth to me. My whole point is my belif in Jesus Christ as my savior goes beyond any fact. I just believe that's all.-
Why not? Its good to be the center of a party
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I'm curious, why don't you say you "know" Jesus Christ is your savior?
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Well she didn't say that she "thought" either.
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Cheeseburger, your powers of observation continue to serve you well.
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darkling woods: believe me there is no focus on material things in my family
unless u consider top ramen a delicacy.-
I went to Ramen shops all the time while I was in Japan. I love Miso Ramen!
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Ramen is delicious.
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Cheeseburger, you traitor!
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Well I can't eat cheeseburgers, that would be cannibalism!
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oh, is cannibalism bad?
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It is in fact frowned upon in most societies.
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@morg: believing is knowing
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Negative.
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and right about now I would love a cheeseburger
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Facts are pursue with our mind and they are true.
Faith something we chose to get us through life. It doesn't need proof. Faith is love like mother's love towards her child, based on faith that the child will become a worthy person, while in fact the kid could grow to be criminal or useless coach potato. -
@ Anok: ok whatever u say. maybe next time when I see a discussion like this on I'm just gonna stay out of it. This one has definately given me a headache.
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You shouldn't stay away - you should take the time to learn more about other religions, interpretations, and belief systems.
Learning about others will only strengthen your own beliefs.
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@alex: I kind of get what ur saying.The only thing is when you have a kid you can't just have faith that the kid will grow up to be a worthy person.You have to nurture and give that kid a foundation of morals and values to grow upon.
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@ morg: That's funny I mean really u have just put a smile on my face.
"negative" I feel like I'm reporting to a drill sgt. ok they aren't synonmys
I KNOW that Jesus Christ is my savior.I BELIEVE that Jesus Christ is my savior. Is that ok?-
Is that okay? No. You just stated two different things right after saying they are not synonymous. Which is it? Why the dance?
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@ Anok: Maybe ur right. The only problem w/ that is christianity in itself is confusing. How in the world would I unravel other people's belifs when I am still learning my own. I mean the Bible is a neverending story for me.
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If you would like help unraveling/learning Christianity, I would love to help you. To study one's own faith is a life long endeavor - but to discover and understand other faiths...not so much. A little bit goes a long way
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I highly recommend studying ones Faith. It could bring you closer to the God that you love. There maybe things that you find that you dont like , but God aint going anywhere
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@ Morgantj: Y did u edit that.
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Because I just finished a couple long debates on epistemology and I don't feel like going through it all again at the moment.
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@ MORG:it's not a dance it's the truth.
I believe and I know.To u and Webster it may mean 2 different things.
to me it doesn't-
What? Earlier you said yourself they are not synonymous, now you say they are. Curious.
Also, please use the "reply" link to keep the conversations together. Thanks.
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I am deffinately fixing to go to webster to find out what EPISTEMOLOGY is though
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a branch of philosophy that investigates the origin, nature, methods, and limits of human knowledge.
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Well then maybe I will study another faith. The only problem is I will still have to argue.I just get sick of arguing all the time.
MY aunt who is a Christian is dating a man from the GAZA strip Every time I go over there he just confuses me more and more. He says he doesn't like the jews in Isreal but the one's in America are ok. Then he makes comments like the Jews are responsible for 911 wich is complete bs. We always get into a very heated debate when I go over. I say to him you believe what u want and I'll believe what I want. He still everysingle time draws me right back into the same old debate. I feel like I need a bloodpressure pill everytime we talk.-
In that case, you are dealing with someone who is deeply entrenched in their own beliefs and interpretations - and that can be very frustrating. The study of religions from a historical, doctrinal, or faith based perspective need not be so frustrating.
You can study a belief from a viewpoint that doesn't instigate emotive responses or even form deeply held opinions about it.
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o my lord anok thanks for the defination,but what does that mean?
Is it philosophy asking how did we get smart and how smart can we get?-
It is a study or theory of knowledge, knowing, examining how we come to know things, can we know things, what is knowledge, the methodology, etc...
- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epistemology
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@morg: I can say it in a million different ways I HollytheHousewife know that JESUS is my savior. I HollytheHousewife believe JESUS is my savior.I HollytheHousewife have faith that JESUS is my savior. c my point
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But if you "know" jesus is your savior, then you don't need "faith" that jesus is your savior.
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@ morg: U just have a report button on my screen
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You have to click the "reply" on the conversation starter. just as you must have done to reply to that.
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yes u do
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Knowing in your heart is a type of faith, while Morgan is talking about a different kind of "knowing" - fact and science based knowing.
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I need faith faith is a very special thing
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ah, that explains it.
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I know what morgan is doing anok he is wanting to tell me that there is only one kind of knowing when he gets my point. He is the one wanting to do the 2step
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For the most part, I could care less when Jesus was born.
I enjoy the Christmas holiday.
However, I do not subscribe to the traditional religious dogma.
The Earth was not created in 7 days.
Adam did not magically appear in the Garden of Eden and Eve was not made from the rib bone of Adam.
How in the heck did Noah get two of every single animal on the Earth in to a boat?
That would have to be one freakin HUGE boat.
I take what I believe to be true and I draw my own conclusions.
I do not follow any religion blindly, and I think those that do are intellectually lazy or ignorant of true facts verses faith.-
"I do not follow any religion blindly, and I think those that do are intellectually lazy or ignorant of true facts verses faith."
Bravo! -
There was just a show on the history channel about noah's arc it will probably come on again u should watch it.
God can create the earth in 7 days because he is God. -
On the same channel, "The Universe" is a good show too, watch Tuesdays at 9pm/8c.
See why it is estimated that the universe is 13+ billions years old, learn about black holes, dark matter, planets, the big bang, the formation of a star, possible life on other planets, gravity, physics, etc... -
A thought, and it is only an idea. Assuming that God was real and all powerful, could God just go "snap" click the fingers and everything just magically appears in the right spot. And that right spot would also include teenage sons standing next to the fridge and teenage daughters in the bathroom in front of the mirror.... seven days would be easy.
As for Blind Faith, great album. One of the rock milestones
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"ah, that explains it." What is that suppose to mean? whateverrrrr
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I do watch that show. I also listen to what they "this is my THEORY on this and that". I love to watch that show. I can't but help to talk to the TV when I'm watching it. People want soooo very bad to say this is a scientific fact and all they can say is I "think" this particular "THEORY" is right.
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Yes, unlike believers, they are not so bold as to actually claim to have all the answers, and to state them as fact. They are more honest then that. Instead they say, this is what the evidence suggest...this is what is probable...
A scientific theory is understood to be a testable model capable of predicting future occurrences or observations and capable of being tested through experiment or otherwise verified through empirical observation. A "scientific theory" is NOT to be taken in the common usage of the term "THEORY" where it is used to signify a conjecture, opinion, or speculation.
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I am not sure belief and fact are so different. Our brains turn many beliefs into fact. What we see and hear with our own eyes and ears we take as fact, when it is simply our brains making sense of it all. I have a belief system, but I never stop doubting facts (which I guess is part of my belief system).-
If someone believes something, he or she thinks that it is true but may be mistaken. This is not the case with knowledge. For example, a man thinks that a particular bridge is safe enough to support him, and he attempts to cross it; unfortunately, the bridge collapses under his weight. It could be said that the man believed that the bridge was safe, but that his belief was mistaken. It would not be accurate to say that he "knew" that the bridge was safe, because plainly it was not. By contrast, if the bridge actually supported his weight then he might be justified in subsequently holding that he knew the bridge had been safe enough for his passage, at least at that particular time. For something to count as knowledge, it must actually be true.
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I like this response
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yes morganti, there is no such thing as the truth, only perception
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Is that a fact?
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read my post under Duke's and see if that is a fact
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Funny how people say as a matter of fact that there is no matter of fact.
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I wasn;t being matter of fact....I am a militant agnostic.....I REALLY know there is no such thing as truth....maybe.
Panda - can you repost the link. I am lazy to scroll and typing in thje dark -
How can you "know" there is no such thing as truth if there is no such thing as truth?
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morgantj.....you missed the key "maybe". I know nothing.
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must be Christmas -
Santa Tony? Tony Claus? -
I meant to remove a single post and removed the entire thread.
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"morgantj.....you missed the key "maybe". I know nothing.
Well "maybe," lots of things, what value does that add to the conversation?
And what is there to know about "nothing?" -
nomadie
Just count up about 20 responses and you'll see it
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@ Tonyb I was wondering what in the heck happened???
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I appreciate that he brought it back. Thanks Tony.
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"Religious Belief Vs. Facts, What Holds More Truth for you?"
Unfortunately there are no "facts" regarding the reason for our creation and the creation of the universe or how this was accomplished...
The so-called facts of humans are not always accurate and subject to upgraded changes...Facts also run amok with relativity and perspective...
In my opinion the reasons why religions are practised and followed is because many of the religious followers actually sense a divine presence...
Possibly they may see the intelligent design in the creations of Planet Earth...They may have had their prayers answered...They may have witnessed a miracle...They may value the community fellowship and morality many religious congregations offer... -
@morg: You can't go and give 2 different meanings for the word THEORY. I'm sorry but u can't have ur cake and eat it to. Remember my words "believe" and "know". I am sorry scientist aren't as bold as I am. That is somthing you will have to take up with them not me. I don't have theory's. I know what I know. I believe what I believe.
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@hollythehousewife
Can you explain why it is that you believe what you believe without pointing to the Bible?
Can you share when it was that you developed your belief?
For example, did your belief in supernatural beings exist before you heard the words God, Jesus, angels and Bible?
Did some special event lead to you developing your belief? -
Holly, I didn't give two different meanings of "theory," I presented the meaning of "scientific theory," and then the meaning of "theory." They are distinguishable.
"Believe and know," yea, what about them? They too are distinguishable, as I have demonstrated.
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Gerry: I agree,except when u know Jesus u don't sense a divine presence.You KNOW there is a divine presence. When a miracle happens to or around you,you are no longer a witness but a part of that miracle.
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No they are not. Webster does not list "scientific theory". Hunny u have what we call in ms busted out. You might have gotten me on belif and know(wich by the way I still do know and believe).There is no distinguishable difference between "scientific theory" or "theory". (booo yea) I finally got one....
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"Scientific theories" are dependent upon the "Scientific method." Theories alone, or in general, are not.
The word theory has many distinct meanings in different fields of knowledge, depending on their methodologies and the context of discussion. - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theory
So, if you must insist!
- www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/scientificmethod
- wordnetweb.princeton.edu/perl/webwn?s=scientific method
- en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientific_method -
@ morgan: well fine then,but the people on The Universe don't say based upon my "scientific theory" they say "in theory" soo u are gonna have to talk some sense into them if u wanna win this debate.
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It is of course understood that their methodology is based on the scientific method, and therefore their theories are "scientific theories" which of course are falsifiable. You are not going to win this debate with arguments from ignorance.
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The Mithras cult dates back to aprox 1400 B.C. The Mithras basic belief system was folded into most of the religions from Egypt to Mesopotamia.
See if you recognize some: The legend of the Shepherds & their gifts and adorations; the flood; the ark; their art of the fiery chariot; use of bells & candles in worship; holy water and the communion; the sanctification of Sunday for the Sun (Son) God and the 25 of December as his birth; emphasis placed on abstinence and moral conduct; the doctrine of heaven & hell; primitive revelation; atoning sacrifice; constant warfare between good and evil with final triumph over evil; immortality of the soul; the Final Judgment; the resurrection of the flesh. Christianity happend to be the most sucessful in their quest, all cults did it to some extent or another. The Ebonits (Jesus' own family) were ran out of Isreal by the Pope for heavens sake! lol
The new religion of Rome (Christianity) co-oped the Mithraic rites and beliefs to ease the push-back and grow conversion rates. -
@ tt: I have never been a real big church goer. I tried I really did but w/ people involved u know there are gonna be politics. I tried studying the bible and I asked the lord into my heart when I was 12 yrs. old. Now since that time I have always had a very very personal relationship with GOD. I don't just pray I talk to him as if he were literally my father sitting on the couch w/ me. My faith in him is so strong I have gone through a few hard knocks in my 28 yrs. My bio dad commited suicide when I was 6. It never really bothered me until I had my girls and realized what he missed out on. I just recently had to commit my step-father who I hadn't seen in 10 yrs. for trying to commit suicide. Saying my prayers w/ my girls one night b4 bed my stepdad's name popped in my head. like I said I hadn't seen him in 10 yrs. I tracked him down and found him passed out in his storage room. He had a water hose running from the tail-pipe of his truck to his storage room. That is the exact same way my dad past away. Anyway if it wasn't for those prayers w/ my girls that night he wouldn't be here right now. plus timetheif (u read my blog) I have been living in a forclosed home for over a year. That just does not happen w/ out some kind of divine intervention. I could have never saved my house on my own. I actually got a voice mail from John J. Mack (CEO) of Morgan Stanley and he helped me save my home. Things like that just don't happen to regular people. My PRAYERS were answered. I mean what else can I say. My faith has never in my whole entire life been tested the way it has been this past year. I didn't even go into about my 4 yr old. getting her arm broke in half. I'm still here w/ a smile on my face thanking GOD I'm not in Iraq,Darfur,the congo,etc......
Life is GOOD. GOD IS GOOD.
Please no one come back at me w/ any smart a** comments bc all that I just took a whole lot of pride swallowing to say. -
oh yea @ timetheif
I forgot to say my life is the special event that really made me "know"there is a GOD. -
@MORGAN: Ok so what does that mean?
if it can be falsified then that means it's not true? right?
well JESUS can't be falsified.-
That something is "falsifiable" does not mean it is false; rather, that if it is false, then this can be shown by observation or experiment. Falsifiability is an important concept in science and the philosophy of science.
Indulge yourself - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Falsifiability
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I think u just like giving me a headache.
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Of course not!
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@ morgan: there u go again editing your comments. stick w/ one argument at a time. Yes I will win this debate. Just for your info I'm not IGNORANT. Just because I believe different from u does not mean I am ignorant. You changed your comment because the scientist on that show don't say " it is my scientific theory" they say " in theory" period end of story.
Holly 1
Morgan 0-
I might indulge myself 2morrow.Right now I'm gonna go get a bud light out of my fridge and watch the news and start thinking of some comebacks for tomorrow.
catch yall 2-morrow -
huh? I said the exact same thing (same meaning), just I edited it to make it clearer FOR YOU. Yes, You are welcome.
As I said above, It is of course understood that their methodology is based on the scientific method, and therefore their theories are "scientific theories" which of course are falsifiable as they often demonstrate. They are not going to dumb it down THAT much.
As for the "Argument from ignorance" you've done it again. I am of course talking about the logical fallacy known as the "Argument from ignorance!" - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_ignorance You cannot win a debate this way, being ignorant of these terms, and then saying because you don't know these things then therefore you are right and I am wrong.
Stop embarrassing yourself with this "I want to win an argument over morgantj" mentality. This isn't about winning or losing, this about understanding and coming closer to truth, and taking out the trash. You are being overly defensive.
And once again, get familiar with that "reply" link will ya? thanks. -
"I do not follow any religion blindly, and I think those that do are intellectually lazy or ignorant of true facts verses faith."
@Holly
Try putting the Christian faith in perspective a bit and please consider the political game that naturally follows behind it.
The Bible was a composition of a handful of writings that were Canonized by the church and many other writings which were considered holy were left out for whatever reasons - political and/or social. Since then the bible has be translated, re-translated and translated back again multiple times between languages. Please consider the fact that certain passages have been omitted from certain writings and things have been "clarified" and/or "corrected".
I would suggest you do some more research and see the commonalities between the world religions.
Connect the dots my friend.
Look at the scientific relationships between them as well.
Try and put historic religion in to a more modern scientific perspective.
Also - Separate religion from spirituality and you will notice they are two different things entirely.
Next - Separate God from religion. You will also find that these two things are different.
Try and separate the religious Dogma from the true spiritual nature of God.
You will notice that the truth you find is solid and that the bible has been furiously abused by the powers that be and has been used for political gain.
Thank you!
PS Holly - I too was in your position. I prayed to God feverously and never got an answer. Needless to say, I have a different perspective on God.
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A Muslim friend translated for me very suitable sentence from the Quran: Don't try to open the eyes that God have left shut.
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Cool :))) and here's a another verse:
"He (Allah) who is the one according to the apprehension of a man"
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Facts are always good to have but how do we really know fact from fiction when things passed down are so distorted. It's like playing telephone with the tin cans. You never can tell what was said orginally, by the time the information reaches you it's distorted. -
I thought this thread was deleted?
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It "was."
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Miracle: It got resurrected! And thus will go on and on and on for eternity. -
Oh morg:Get over yourself.#1 your comments are the only ones that don't have the reply button next to it.I am actually replying to anok's comment right now.#2 I know the definition of theory.I know the definition of truth,faith,and belif. We see them different ways obvioulsy.Kind of like the words in the Bible can be looked @ in many different ways.#3 I don't think I am being defensive at all. Morgantj you know it is about winning the debate because if it wasn't you would have quit replying to my comments a long time ago if you thought I was just some crazy rambleing on.
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A whole nights sleep, and these are your so called "comebacks?"
#1, you are addressing me so why click on "reply" to anoks question? You are not addressing her question, you are addressing the comments I made above. You should have clicked on the "reply" to your own comment above which would have in turn been placed after my comment to yours, the one you happen to be addressing. So you obviously still don't get how the "reply" works. #2, If that makes you feel better to call definitions relative, then sure. LOL. #3, Yes you are being defensive, as can be seen in your replies, like how you replied to misunderstanding, "argument from ignorance" and many other responses you've made in this thread which I need not address them all. As far as this "debate" as you call it, I am just having a conversation and making my points, you are the one keeping score, and now rambling on. -
@ranist22
Yes it would appear so
Crossposted
lol ... In some respects the "religious/philosophical" threads appear to be a means of conducting classes now ... we have the believers "sharing" and atheists identifying fallacies. It's the same old same old over and over and over again.
The persistence in pursuing these concepts over and over again in this blogging forum context makes me wonder:
(1) Have these threads which most frequently originate as thinly veiled attempts at "sharing the faith" become a "correction in direction" idol to both believers and atheists alike?
(2) Are both theists and theists be so attached to their own words posted into these many threads, as opposed to in their blogs, that they would truly grieve the loss of the threads?
Nah ... that couldn't be, could it? Because atheists don't have idols ... lol
Carry on carrying on. This is just something to ponder that I have posted in a spirit of goodwill.
Happy Solstice to all and have a Very Merry New Year too. -
oh TT, the exact same post you posted in another thread. Spamming now are you?
If you look up above ladies and gentleman, you will notice the species known as an unofficial hall monitor, joining threads they find they think there is something they can scrutinize. So, over and over again, they join such topics the label as tainted and don't add anything of value to the topic itself, but instead question the participants intentions. Makes me wonder if this qualifies as troll-like behavior, these attempts to make something ill out of every thread the hall monitor themselves are opposed to. Nah ... that couldn't be, could it? This is just something to ponder that I have posted in a spirit of goodwill.
Have a wonderful Holiday and please enjoy the rest of the tour. -
Yes indeed and that's why I said: Crossposted above
For as long as you keep polishing your idols,
I'll keep sending you seasonal good cheer.
Merry Yule! -
TT, don't forget - thistimethisspace.com/2008/11/16/no-tolerance-for-trolls/
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Good tidings we bring, to you and your kin;
Good tidings for the Solstice and a Happy New Year!
We wish you a Merry Solstice, We wish you a Merry Solstice,
We wish you a Merry Solstice, and a Happy New Year!
The Great Wheel turns, the bright Sun returns!
The fires of Yuletide, Bring a Happy New Year!
We wish you a Merry Solstice, We wish you a Merry Solstice,
We wish you a Merry Solstice, And a Happy New Year!
Great Goddeess we call, Great God join us all!
Return now this Solstice, for a Happy New Year!
We wish you a Merry Solstice, We wish you a Merry Solstice,
We wish you a Merry Solstice, and a Happy New Year!
Together this night, to bring forth the Light!
You bring us a Merry Yuletide, and a Happy New Year!
We wish you a Merry Solstice, We wish you a Merry Solstice,
We wish you a Merry Solstice, and a Happy New Year!!!-
@crystalraven
Thanks for sharing that music. We will be singing it tomorrow night.
The Solstice is also a time of plenty. The Hopi Kachinas return to the Earth during the solstice, and the Deer Mothers dance for the fertility of the earth. The hearth fires of Hestia (known as the Roman goddess Vesta) are quenched and then rekindled. The "first fruits" festival, Kwanzaa, is held to honor the seven major deities of Yoruba.
And Winter Solstice is a time for visions. Rhiannon, a Welsh incarnation of Epona, the Celtic Mare Goddess, rides through the dreams of her people by night, transporting them to the place between the worlds where they can create their own visions, giving them a gift of what they need most, helping them to make real their dreams. In Scotland, the last night of the year is Wish Night, a holiday when wishes made for the coming year are at their most powerful.
The Winter Solstice marks the beginning of the end of the Dark of the year, the point at which the day’s light begin to grow longer. That light is like a child within us all. This year, we welcome you to join us as we give birth to our inner light and take a step forward to celebrating a strong and thriving community through song, dance, music and ritual!.
All Hail the Goddess! -
What does this have to do with Religious belief vs fact? The spammers\trolls have officially arrived.
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I do believe that it's a fact that humans worshipped Gaia and that the Goddess faith predate paternalistic and institutionalized religions. The celebration of Winter Solstice is a time of good cheer for those who cotton to Gaia - All Hail the Goddess!
crystalraven and I are both hedgewitches. Yes indeed this little green witch blesses you and everyone else - Have a Merry! -
My Wise men posts are just as valid as anyone else's version of Truth
www.blogcatalog.com/discuss/entry/three-wise-men-followed-a-ufo -
Morg, the aliens have too
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TT. please reread your own post here - thistimethisspace.com/2008/11/16/no-tolerance-for-trolls/
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I always believe that truth will set you free. Facts weren't hidden from human, some are just lazy to seek and read 'coz they're content from what they were taught about religion since they were kids. They never questioned.
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@ morgantj
yes and we are sharing our beliefs, some facts and spreading good cheer too!!!
We wish you a Merry Solstice, We wish you a Merry Solstice,
We wish you a Merry Solstice, and a Happy New Year!!!-
CrystalRaven please read - thistimethisspace.com/2008/11/16/no-tolerance-for-trolls/
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lol - She already has and we have our own unique approach for dealing with them on the eve before Winter Solstice.
Merry meet and merry part and merry meet again. -
Have you and TT seen this site? amazingforums.com/forum1/HW-DIC61/forum.html. It's a forum for hedgewitches! Fascinating stuff!
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Morgantj, do you have PMS today? Is there a particular reason you are dogging this thread with personal attacks against TT? You seem to stalk her and I am at a loss as to why.
Ordinarily I enjoy reading what you write, particularly on the subject of religion, but I find it difficult to reconcile those intelligent and erudite writings with your childish and puerile attacks on TT.
Would you please stop? It's making me re-think my opinion of you as one of the brighter lights of intelligent thought here.-
We're all waiting on our Christmas presents and they are not turning up. It could be why Morg's upset with her. I thought TT was sending me chocolates and Í've been sitting next to my letterbox for days and still nothing. I'm worried they'll melt
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Oh, dear Panda...she is in the Northern Hemisphere in a place where it is cold, cold, cold...her chocolates are probably frozen! Lots of people up there forget we in the Southern Hemisphere are looking at the first day of summer and things like chocolate go melty real quick! (it's only 10 am here and I already have the a/c on!)
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Dodging! You obviously didn't read the thread, because if you did you would have seen that I have been conversing about it the whole time! And then TT apparently got tired of it so she took upon herself to troll it, which you conveniently ignore. I and others were trying to have a discussion here! It is perfectly sensible to call out off-topic troll like behavior. And your stalking claim is absolutely absurd, unjustified, and is a straight up lie. Might help if you actually read the thread before making biased claims. But she is that the top of your friend list, so no surprise there. Now, do you mind letting us get on with the actual topic of the thread? That would be great!
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Um...I did read the thread. My comment was made after doing so...and I have ignored nothing.
Your comments here to TT are petulant and spiteful and childish and revealed a side to you that I find very disappointing. -
How do these comments of TT's have anything to do with the thread? Can you tell me that? I can tell you, they are toll-like posts that meet her own definition of troll as being posts that are irrelevant, off-topic, and inflammatory messages in an online community. Did you skip over these, because if you didn't as you say, then the fact that you support such comments that are off-topic and troll-like, I find very disappointing. It is disrespectful to the OP. Please stop!
"@crystalraven
Thanks for sharing that music. We will be singing it tomorrow night.
The Solstice is also a time of plenty. The Hopi Kachinas return to the Earth during the solstice, and the Deer Mothers dance for the fertility of the earth. The hearth fires of Hestia (known as the Roman goddess Vesta) are quenched and then rekindled. The "first fruits" festival, Kwanzaa, is held to honor the seven major deities of Yoruba.
And Winter Solstice is a time for visions. Rhiannon, a Welsh incarnation of Epona, the Celtic Mare Goddess, rides through the dreams of her people by night, transporting them to the place between the worlds where they can create their own visions, giving them a gift of what they need most, helping them to make real their dreams. In Scotland, the last night of the year is Wish Night, a holiday when wishes made for the coming year are at their most powerful.
The Winter Solstice marks the beginning of the end of the Dark of the year, the point at which the day’s light begin to grow longer. That light is like a child within us all. This year, we welcome you to join us as we give birth to our inner light and take a step forward to celebrating a strong and thriving community through song, dance, music and ritual!.
All Hail the Goddess!"
and
"I do believe that it's a fact that humans worshipped Gaia and that the Goddess faith predate paternalistic and institutionalized religions. The celebration of Winter Solstice is a time of good cheer for those who cotton to Gaia - All Hail the Goddess!
crystalraven and I are both hedgewitches. Yes indeed this little green witch blesses you and everyone else - Have a Merry!"
and
"Yes indeed and that's why I said: Crossposted above
For as long as you keep polishing your idols,
I'll keep sending you seasonal good cheer.
Merry Yule! "
and more...in which she admits to spamming!
"@ranist22
Yes it would appear so
Crossposted
lol ... In some respects the "religious/philosophical" threads appear to be a means of conducting classes now ... we have the believers "sharing" and atheists identifying fallacies. It's the same old same old over and over and over again.
The persistence in pursuing these concepts over and over again in this blogging forum context makes me wonder:
(1) Have these threads which most frequently originate as thinly veiled attempts at "sharing the faith" become a "correction in direction" idol to both believers and atheists alike?
(2) Are both theists and theists be so attached to their own words posted into these many threads, as opposed to in their blogs, that they would truly grieve the loss of the threads?
Nah ... that couldn't be, could it? Because atheists don't have idols ... lol
Carry on carrying on. This is just something to ponder that I have posted in a spirit of goodwill.
Happy Solstice to all and have a Very Merry New Year too."
Phew! Yea, not good. If anyone is stalking it is her stalking threads she deems not worthy. We were having a good discussion until she came along spamming it. Furthermore if she really thought I was "stalking" HER as you falsely claim then why does she continue to send ME buddy like private messages showing favor of my comments in threads. -
If the deviation from topic disturbs you so much, why not report it to admin instead of playing Thread Cop (I don't see the OP objecting to the off-topic comments) and scolding every one?
Truly, Morgantj, this gives a picture of you as resentful and spiteful rather than the thoughtful, measured intellect I had originally thought you to be. I'm having a difficult time hanging on to that image of you...please don't destroy it further.
Seriously, if TT's posts here offend you so much, click the "report" button. And if you don't report because you don't think admin will take it seriously, then maybe you need to ask yourself why your reaction is so out of proportion to the offense...and recognize that YOUR comments here are gravely off-topic as well. -
I already did click report! Before you even arrived. Now you too, have disturbed the peace. Why don't you click on report if my posts bother you so much while you leave your friend TT's posts totally undisturbed as though her trolling is acceptable, but my calling out her trolling is not. Yea. BTW - You too are off topic, are scolding, are painting a grim picture of yourself, and have further derailed the thread. So I suggest you practice what you preach, otherwise you make yourself look like a hypocrite.
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Im a Christian but Im not the of conservative. I dont follow all church traditions nor believes them. My belief - if you're going to combine muslims, christians, buddism, plus philosophy - that what i believe in.-
@morg
what do I reply to when I don't have a reply button?
That really wasn't a very good comeback huh? That's bc I never went to sleep. I am the proud new aunt of a beautiful baby girl!!!!!
Back to the point. I have already found the "truth" I took my trash out a long time ago. You and I will never see eye to eye. Oh and about being defensive you just read me the wrong way I guess. -
@jonrs
As is my philosophy.
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Modern scriptures is overwritten so many times for now that there is no point to "blind follow". Truth seekers must go to the "source" what is definitely hard way.. Guess better one is to find a "Source" inside us in order to identify the truth.-
Agreed
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For me, Religious Beliefs are equivalent with the truths.
I like questioning my religious beliefs to attain the truth that lies behind it.
But Religious Beliefs are like shortcuts to the truths; so no need to be skeptical about them everytime.-
Disagree
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What holds Truth for me?
God is all, all is God.
God is source, we are a part of the whole.
We are as water molecules in the ocean (God).
Religion is a socio/political creation representative of universal truths.
Spirituality is completely different than religion as one can be religious and not spiritual and visa-versa.
Spirituality is the resonance of universal truth.
Religions speak of truth, but are abused by the powers that be to serve their own purposes.
All the world religions speak of universal truth and thus have a lot more in common than you would think.
I do not believe anyone has the whole truth.
All religions hold pieces of a greater truth.
Sages and Prophets of old held more truth than their inaccurate representative religious counterparts.
Sages and Prophets were murdered or socially massacred because of the truth they held and were seen as a political threat to the powers that be.
In order for something to be true, it must resonate with your spirit, body and mind.
In order for something to be true, it must adhere to universal laws, but if there be lack of proof of adherence to universal laws does not discount that truth, as there are many things in the universe that we can not comprehend or perceive correctly at this moment in our intellectual growth.
There are many things in Heaven (Universe) and Earth that we do not understand.
Heaven and Hell are only states of mind. They are not physical places of being, as our experiences are in direct relation to our point of view, our beliefs, the feelings we choose to hold in our awareness, the intentions of our hearts and our relation to the whole (God).
We continue after death. There is no end.
There is no “good” or “evil”, as “good” & “bad” are extremely relative to our experiences. There are however, people who hold “ill-intent” (harm) for others, as there are those of “positive intent” (beneficial) & those of “neutral intent”.
There are more planes of existence beyond the physical plane.
There are more than 3 dimensions.
We are not the only intelligence in the universe.-
For the most part, I disagree.
Why do you not believe in leprechauns, fairies, and elves? Because there is no proof of their existence. I have books that tell about them, that go into extensive detail about them. There are websites that tell their habits, likes and dislikes, and stories of their adventures and experiences. Are these books and websites proof of their existence? There are even natural phenomena attributed to them, like fairy rings. Does this prove their existence?
It is the same with gods. Tales exist, a book of stories and experiences exists, natural phenomena has been attributed to them, but it is all apocryphal and speculative. There is no proof and, absent proof, gods are no more real than leprechauns, fairies or elves. -
This is my belief.
You can believe what you wish.
But ultimately, all of our beliefs tie in to one common truth. -
And what is that "one common truth"?
And if a "common truth" ties all beliefs together, what of no belief? -
Truth is truth, regardless of whether you acknowledge it or not.
Choosing not to believe is still a belief, however ignorant. -
@Duke: yes, choosing not to believe is a belief...a belief that gods and other magical, invisible supernatural being do not exist.
And such a belief is far from ignorant. Belief in supernatural invisible beings without a shred of empirical proof to support it is ignorant...ignorant of fact, reason, and the rules of evidence.
I am asking you for the second time to name that "common truth" that ties all beliefs together. An unnamed truth carries no veracity. -
Atheists sure are shrude when it comes to their absolute know-how on the matters of the invisible. As if they are the one and only authorities on the matter. How is it they know so much about so little? How is it they know for a fact, without a shred of doubt that there is nothing beyond their understanding. You say this isn’t ignorance…I say it is of the most complicated and intellectually screwed up, misguided way of being ignorant - To presume to know everything and that what can not be proven in the physical realm means it does not exist.
And yet - They stand defiant when their own sciences are starting to prove these theories.
They will only be satisfied when there is nothing left to prove in the universe.
Atheism is the polar opposite of Theology. Two opposite sides of the spectrum and equally as dangerous and ignorant.
What is that One Truth? That you are divine.
To deny that, would be to deny your own existence.
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is more look like the debate between deductive and inductive logic to me.
for me, Religion is a need. It is important.
cintailah-bumi.blogspot.com/2008/12/nge-blog-sambil-cintai-bumi-yuks.html-
Why is religion needed?
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There are many people in the world who are sufficiently strong to go through life without the belief in an invisible magic person who will right their wrongs, rescue them when they screw up, and punish their enemies.
I would hate to be so weak and/or immature that I had to believe in spurious magic to allow me to live and be at peace with the vagaries of the world around me.
A lot of religious people apparently just don't "get" what Jesus was all about.
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beingandquirckiness.blogspot.com/2008/12/faith.html
Faith does not consist in believing in the existence of what religious traditions call God. Metaphysics suffices to climb up to what Aristotle, for example, calls the immobile motor. It is a fact that metaphysics, which is a touch of intelligence beyond the physical world, appeared much earlier than the Jewish revelation.
Faith does not consist in believing in the existence of a first being, but in believing in what it reveals to one or the other of what the "immobile motor" is about. It follows that the religious dimension of man (etymologically, what unites men) is not grounded in any revelation whatsoever but inheres to human nature, since pagan intelligence can climb up to what antique pagan metaphysics names the first being.
Needless to say that one must understand what metaphysics is, and this has not exactly been a fashionable subject matter over the past few centuries. In fact, it is hardly taught anywhere anymore, although it once ruled and that logic, politics, rhetoric, etc. were all at its service. In short, to think that faith is to believe in God constitutes a twofold error, whats more logical since we assimilate faith and metaphysics, and just as common amongst believers than agnostics, for this consists in erring on the subject of faith and on the capacities of natural and pagan human reason.
At the same time we began to think that the soul is a religious concept, which it isnt in the least since pagans had discovered it, and in a very accurate manner, as the principle of philosophy of life, a real principle, which resists to death in the case of the human soul. We can for that matter if not prove at least see a sign that faith does not consist in revealing what metaphysics enables on its own to attain, for in neither of the three monotheist revelations is metaphysics taught, which implies that man does not need a dogma in this matter.
That said, in many philosophical traditions of the world and sundry wisdoms, the seven known human dimensions are as follows: the vegetative dimension, the animal dimension, the spiritual dimension (intelligence and will), work, love/friendship, politics and the religious dimension, that is to say the pagan discovery that man is created. Historically, it is the believers who are the guiltiest of insolence with metaphysics, which is understandable since they have had a revelation, and are thus dispensed of being intelligent, and it continues on to this day. The reaction did not come too long in waiting, and one must remark that atheism and the contemporary ideologies appeared in the realm of Judaeo-Christianity. They could only have come to being there, at the height of a scholastic decadence imbued with itself. In the contemporary period, Hegel is the one who lays the bed of atheist ideologies. And yet Hegel is not an atheist! Even so he is at the origin of the most mortal wound inflicted upon metaphysics. But that's another story. -
If you claim to believe religion then you are a nutjob just as likely to believe any other completely silly notion that comes along or just plain getting what religion is wrong. Religion isn't about belief, it is about faith, which is ultimately the suspension of belief in order to accept supernatural. -
@ duke: I haven't been to church in 2 years. I kind of don't know where your comment is coming from. I absoulutly believe there is a huge difference
between FAITH and RELIGION. Don't get me wrong I used to like going to church,but when inside politics of the church out weighed the reason I went to church (to worship my savior)I got the hell out of dodge. Religion is human. Faith is not. I talk to my lord as if he was my father sitting right next to me. I worship him,but more than that I have a relationship with him I really do have faith. Even if I don't get exactly what I want (My prayers being answered) I know that is his will for me. When I keep the faith everything seems to work itself out. I absolutely know that I am taken care of even if it isn't what I want.
check out my blog (Hollyb27.blogspot.com) if u don't think that is devine intervention at it's best. Then I just don't know what to tell ya.-
It is your truth.
More power to yah. -
"Your truth"? No.
There is no such thing as a "personal truth." There are opinions, delusions, and beliefs, but truth can only be objective. Otherwise, it's not truth. -
@Voodoo
So is your belief. lol
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How do u figure that voodoo? I mean what kind of equation can u give me that says TRUTH=OBJECTIVE? Please tell me. If you can give me the answer to that then you have figured out the purpose of life huh????
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I think what he is referring to is the absence of bias.
I could be wrong though. -
Definition of truth: the property (as of a statement) of being in accord with fact or reality
Reality is objective. Therefore, truth is objective. "Personal truth" cannot exist.
Now, your opinion COULD coincide with reality, but that doesn't personify the truth. -
Define reality.
? ? ? -
No, bad Dukepro! You are not throwing in that whole "Is reality real?" bullshit.
Even if reality isn't real, it doesn't matter because until we prove that reality is an illusion, our reality is the only thing that we need to consider.
Kill that philosophical inquiry with fire! -
LOL!!!
Love it!
Doesn't mean it doesn't exist and/or affect our current reality as we understand it. -
Occam's razor.
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Truth is the adequacy between intelligence and reality.
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Occam's Razor - All things being equal, the simplest answer is usually the right one.
There is nothing simple about nuclear physics.
If this ideology were correct, we would still be in the Roman ages believing in Apollo the Sun God and his lot of Gods and Demi-Gods.
Not to mention: The world is flat, the solar system revolves around Earth, and that Earth is the center of the universe.
HA!!!
ROTFL
*Sigh
Now - Lets assume this idea were correct.
I would state that...
Life & the Universe are an experiential experiment in consciousness.
Nothing more, nothing less.
I would go on to say…
Energy can not be created or destroyed.
All that is or ever was, is all there is or will ever be.
That the physical body is nothing more than organized energy at a low rate of vibration.
The physical body is a machine/computer that translates our universal consciousness in to the physical reality.
And…that reality is defined by our perception of it.
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I am sorry to be the one to tell u this but that is not what webster says.
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[I am sorry to be the one to tell u this but that is not what webster says.]
Yes it is. Definition 3a.
Also:
2 a (1): the state of being the case : fact (2): the body of real things, events, and facts : actuality (3)often capitalized : a transcendent fundamental or spiritual reality -
Reality is relative.
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No, reality is objective. Our perception is what's relative.
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The fact is to me that JESUS CHRIST IS MY LORD AND SAVIOR
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That's not an objective statement. That's an expression of an opinion worded as if it were a fact.
Facts are things like: The force of gravity decreases by the square of the distance as two objects move further apart. -
Bravo!
Ignore Voodoo.
He's just bitter young man who takes joy in crushing other's beliefs. -
[Bravo!
Ignore Voodoo.]
Yeah, ignore me. We wouldn't want people to look at reality (in and of itself) with open eyes. -
Hey, don't stop now. This stuff is getting good.
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You can not Know what reality IS, until you Know what reality is NOT, and you do not Know everything that is Not, so you can not truly Know what IS.
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[He's just bitter young man who takes joy in crushing other's beliefs.]
I don't take joy in crushing anything. I just get annoyed by people who say stupid things.
[You can not Know what reality IS, until you Know what reality is NOT, and you do not Know everything that is Not, so you can not truly Know what IS.]
No. Because there are infinite things that reality is NOT, but only one thing that reality IS. It's simpler to go with what things are, not what things are not.
Occam's razor again. -
"It's simpler to go with what things are, not what things are not."
Disagree
Because unless you take in to account what it is not, then you never really, fully know. -
[Because unless you take in to account what it is not, then you never really, fully know.]
Is reality a unicorn turd? Prove that it isn't.
Or...
I could try and fail to prove that it is. Much simpler. -
You do not Know anything unless you have something to compare it to.
All reality is, is contrast and comparisons. -
It's a fallacy, Dukepro, that we must compare one reality to another reality (or non-reality) in order to understand reality. It doesn't need to be that dramatic. Otherwise, since you can't disprove the existence of ANYTHING, you open the doors for "Everything exists."
You can compare pieces of reality with every other piece of reality to understand reality. -
"Otherwise, since you can't disprove the existence of ANYTHING, you open the doors for "Everything exists."
Why yes! Yes it does!
"You can compare pieces of reality with every other piece of reality to understand reality."
Yes! Yes - Exactly my point.
But how do you know physical reality unless you can compare it to that which is not physical reality? How do you know it is even physical unless you can observe that which is not physical? -
Argh! I'm hereby ignoring you. It's not worth it to try to explain why the "Is reality real?" philosophy is a waste of time. My blood pressure can't handle your trolling.
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Argh! I'm hereby ignoring you. It's not worth it to try to explain why the "Is reality real?" philosophy is a waste of time. My blood pressure can't handle your trolling.
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Yay!
I've officially pissed of Voodoo.
That's got to be an accomplishment. -
We can approach truth through a constant back and forth between reality and our perception of reality.
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I would say that is a fair process in which to determine what is and is not.
It is the relationship between the two that defines them both.
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No it's not voodoo u gave me the definition of reality not truth.
and u don't have to repeat what I say I already know what I said.-
[No it's not voodoo u gave me the definition of reality not truth.]
I beg your pardon?
www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/truth
2 a (1): the state of being the case : fact (2): the body of real things, events, and facts : actuality (3)often capitalized : a transcendent fundamental or spiritual reality
3 a: the property (as of a statement) of being in accord with fact or reality bchiefly British : true 2 c: fidelity to an original or to a standard
Definition 1 is archaic, and definition 4 refers to cultural usage. That's why I only included definitions 2 and 3.
www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/reality - There is no 3a here.
[and u don't have to repeat what I say I already know what I said.]
People like to edit posts after I've already replied, so I made it a habit to evade their dishonesty by including the parts of their original unedited post that I'm replying to. I use square brackets so people know that they are not my words.
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Voodoo please just stop. That is not my expression of an opinion. I know what I know and my TRUTH is that JESUS sacrificed himself to save me. That is not an opinion that is the TRUTH!!!!! All u have to do is read the bible.
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Ok - I'm all for expressing your Truth, but lets leave the Bible out of this one shall we.
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[I know what I know...]
[my TRUTH]
Huh. Sounds awfully subjective.
[JESUS sacrificed himself to save me]
Only you?
[That is not an opinion that is the TRUTH!!!!!]
Sounds like someone is in denial...
[All u have to do is read the bible.]
Which will prove what, exactly? That primitive humans actually believed the crap that other primitive humans wrote?
Here's something for you: I hereby deny the unclean Holy Spirit. Mark 3:29. I just committed an unforgivable sin. Therefore, no matter what, I'm going to Hell. You are therefore wasting your time telling me to read the Bible.
www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/mk/3.html#29
[Ok - I'm all for expressing your Truth, but lets leave the Bible out of this one shall we.]
Agreed.
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whatever u say. You are another one of those people that will look your whole life and never find the "TRUTH" It is such a waste of time to when
life has so much more to offer.-
[You are another one of those people that will look your whole life and never find the "TRUTH" ]
Not true. (Is that ironic? I'm not sure.)
Since I don't just accept the words of unknowledgeable idiots, and actually try to determine TRUTH, I'll be closer to finding it than anyone who trusts the words of foolish ancients. -
Truth is Truth, because we believe it to be.
There's no need to "find" your truth, as you have always had a personal truth, and your truth (your belief) is always changing from moment to moment, however slight.
You’ve always had your truth. It’s the progressive realization of that truth.
You will never find real “Truth”, because there is always more to your truth than you realize.
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I don't have to leave the bible out. That is my outline for living.
No voodoo Jesus saved u to. You just don't believe it. That is not your truth. I'm not in denial u r. Helloooo the words written in red are from Jesus himslelf...-
The Holy Spirit has no power.
NOW! No matter WHAT I EVER DO FROM THIS POINT FORWARD! No matter if I become the most devout Christian in the world, if your religion is true, I'm going to hell with no chance of salvation.
Un-for-giv-a-ble Sin.
I am now a lost cause. YIPPEE!!!
All Xtians take heed: Preaching to me is now a waste of time.
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That's fine voodoo that is your "belif" more power 2 ya
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No, actually that's your belief. You believe in the Bible. I'm just using your damn Bible against you and every other Christian in the world so I can stop listening to your BS.
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Like I said earlier I don't have a religion. I have faith
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Then why did you tell me to read the Bible if you don't believe in it? Hypocritical? You bet!
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If u don't wanna listen to my BS leave the thread
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No Voodoo u can't use the bible against me. I absolutely believe in the bible
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Like I said - Ignore the Voodoo.
He's just bein a stink butt.
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There is no talking to u. You believe what u believe I believe what I believe. I don't care if u think I'm an idiot. Is that really supposed to
offend me bc it doesn't. -
I'm not gonna ignore voodoo I think he needs someone to pray for him.
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lol
Someone needs to.
He's a freakin lost soul that one.
He needs a little love.
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I agree
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@holly
If you want to pray for someone, anyone then my advice is please, please, please do not to announce it, lest you be interpreted as sounding patronizing and condescending. My family did that "pray for you" stuff to me so often, and started praying in my home out loud when I asked them politely not to, over and over again. I asked them to keep their prayers to themselves but they failed to respect my wishes over and over again. They dissed me and I booted them off my property. They lost contact with me forevermore due to their self righteousness, disrespect, arrogance and false pride.
Matthew 6: 5 - 6
5 When you pray, be not like the hypocrites; for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and on the street corners so that they may be seen by men. Truly I say to you, they have their reward in full.
6 But you, when you pray, go into your inner room, close your door and pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees what is done in secret will reward you.
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Go ahead and pray for me, and I'll pray for you to get cancer. Let's see which happens first.
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Not to worry we pagans have you covered ... lol
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I will pray for u. If u wanna pray that I get cancer that's fine except who are you gonna pray to.
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I'll pray that no one prays for you, k voodoo?
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Works for me.
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Who are u gonna pray to cryatal
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Shiva, but not before sacrificing three virgins to Kali.
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In reply to the opening question and the given example, the bible does not say Christ was born on Dec 25th, I myself know of no Christian (though I sure there are some) who does not understand that the 25th of Dec is without a doubt not the birth date of Jesus.
Everyone, most everyone anyway knows how the date of Dec 25th was come upon for the celebration of the birth of Christ. -
you know.. i grew up in a catholic environment but i have known lately that belief in God is not a matter of religion...it is your faith in a supreme being who created all things...it is faith that matters not religion...because religion has caused the death of millions and sparked hundreds of wars -
There is more than just fact v belief. I use the bible to learn how I can help people. What can we learn from the Bible about mental health? Much.-
"What can we learn from the Bible about mental health?"
LOL
Never would of connected those dots.
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@ tt:
I am not at all trying to sound condisending to voodoo. He has obviously got a lot of hate and anger in him. I simply said I am gonna pray for him because he needs it even if he doesn't think he does. There is nothing else I can say or do.-
@holly
IMHO voodookobra is not demonstrating either hatred or anger. He's a logical person who is aware of fallacious arguments when he experiences them, hence, he's expressing frustration. This thread is titled: Religious Belief Vs. Facts, What Holds More Truth for you? Obviously, voodookobra gives more credence to fact. And obviously, you are a blind faith believer so you give more credence to faith.
IMHO these kind of threads make no significant contribution to goodwill and community building at BC at all. IMHO our BC history, including the many threads like this one which have been deleted, indicates that these threads create ill will and antipathy. Take note that lotusB, who was the OP of this thread, walked away from it ages ago.
simply said I am gonna pray for him because he needs it even if he doesn't think he does.
That statement is condescending and patronizing.
There is nothing else I can say or do.
Sure there is. There's something that both you and voodookobra can do and that's choosing not to post to this thread again. -
[There's something that both you and voodookobra can do and that's choosing not to post to this thread again.]
I glossed over this part the first time I read through it. Agreed. -
Yay!
Voodoo isn't going to post here any more!
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He does have hatred he just said he was going to pray I get cancer. Even though I'm not really sure who he is gonna pray to since he doesn't believe.
I will continue to post tt. I am not trying to shove god down his throat. I am just telling him what my truth is and he had a problem with that.-
[He does have hatred he just said he was going to pray I get cancer.]
I was trying to demonstrate how pointless prayer is.
[Even though I'm not really sure who he is gonna pray to since he doesn't believe.]
Doesn't make a difference.
[I am just telling him what my truth is and he had a problem with that.]
I have the problem with people taking their subjective experiences and calling it "truth." If it's true, it can't be personal and therefore isn't YOUR truth. There is nothing more than THE truth.
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I forgot to say my prayers are not patronizing statements. My prayers are an action.
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No, but saying "I'll pray for you" is very condescending. I don't want your prayer. Stop talking to yourself and thinking you're helping! Also, stop assuming that people with different opinions need "help" or "divine intervention." My life is very happy without needing religious/spiritual BS to hold it together, thank you very much.
I don't want your superstitious nonsense, either.
All I want is for you to use logically sound arguments; and you have failed to deliver. -
"I don't want your superstitious nonsense, either.
All I want is for you to use logically sound arguments; and you have failed to deliver."
Amen to that! LOL!!!!
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@ voodoo
sorry for ya but my truth is my truth. You say you have a problem with my subjective opinion being the TRUTH. I don't have a problem with your subjective OPINION being ur truth-
LOL!!!
Good one Holly. -
yes morgan AMEN to that
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He typoed. He meant Ramen.
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Miso Ramen! MMMM!
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I didn't think I was talking to myself I was replying to TT.I don't believe in superstesion I belive in GOD
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I didn't think I was talking to myself I was replying to TT.I don't believe in superstension I belive in GOD
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no one knows the truth no one knows whats gonna happen.. there are so many ppl believing there own religion and believing there own Gods... we cant force them to believe us or force us to believe them.... if we eat we live.. bow
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@ javi
I do know what is gonna happen to me. -
nobeliefs.com/problemswithbeliefs.htm
and anything else at nobeliefs.com is worth a look.
happy reading!
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