Discussions
Respecting Islam !
Posted by RawanS • 4/25/09 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: hadith, Islam, quran, respect, world
Peace Be Upon You - which is the greeting of Islam -
How are you ?
I hope you're fine
Reading what some haters write about Islam , and you'll feel one thing the extreme hate and making things up and saying that they're from the Quran and the Hadith they mentioned things I know really well but I found in them things that're unreal which those haters made up , and spreaded them saying that's the Quran or the Hadith !
Others judge Islam through the extremes , who are few but the media foucs on them as if they were the muslims !
The Quran says :
"Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and beautiful preaching."
Quran 16:125
Does this looks like a viloent religion !
And the cartoons which makes fun of Islam and Muslims which makes the connection much harder , This connection must be build on respect and understanding , not hate and sarcasm !
Islam told us to respect to others and their religions , which is completely opposite what those haters do .
See you soon
User Comments
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Started to read it
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Once the Teheran Newspaper Editor accused that Al Jazeehra was in fact a covert CIA organization aimed to propagate extreme vision of islam, why don't you attack these instead of people who can't help much about that except believing what they apparently see ?
If you denounce Aljaheera instead of trying to defend what is iin apparence against islam your battle is lost in advance: you will only convince those who are already convinced.
It's not Islam in fact, it's Christianity, even Ecology which turn into extremism by a few but enough to make people turn away what wasn't meant to be that.-
' why don't you attack these instead of people who can't help much about that except believing what they apparently see ? '
The editor was expressing his mind - or his government's - not mine .
Some of these people only want to see the extreme vision of Islam no matter where's the truth .
Others don't know about Islam and I'm trying to tell them about it
' If you denounce Aljaheera instead of trying to defend what is iin apparence against islam '
I really don't understand what al jazeera doing here .
' It's not Islam in fact, it's Christianity, even Ecology which turn into extremism by a few but enough to make people turn away what wasn't meant to be that. '
And everybody who has a case has to stand for it and make clear that the extremis are not the truth -
You don'understand what aljeera is doing ??? Well I can tell you it is mostly through Aljazeera that Occidental Medias mostly use as source of all the evil about Islam Extremists.
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Every religion has accounts of violence in their scriptures except for Jainism and Buddhism AFAIK.
Every religion also has messages of Peace. I do respect those people who pay attention to only the good parts and lead a good life. And if you believe in the messages of peace from the Quran, I respect you @RawanS
Please glance this list and tell me Quran is a bok of non violence :
skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/cruelty/long.html-
The very problem is not what Islam or any other religion is supposedly about, it is about HOW it is used as pretext for war. And people still stick to the argument that "Religion is about Love" as well as "Communism is about Democracy" etc.
So instead of chasing the elites who use these pretexts, people are chasing religious people and the elites are laughing about how people still don't get it: Divide and Reign ! -
This link is completely ridiculous !
They delete what's before and what's after and metion couple of words in the half without the truth in the Quran which before and after those , and you also cannot understand Quran without understanding in what situation it was ! , you'll never understand Islam and Quran from such hater and liar site .
Their way is like , when someone say " theives will go to prison " , and another person says that you said " go to prison " .
Read about Quran from its ORIGINAL SOURCES not from a racist !
The Quran says actually :
O mankind! We created you from a single (pair of a) male and a female, and made you into nations and tribes, so that you may know each other. Verily the most honored of you in the sight of Allah is (one who is) the most righteous of you.... (Al-Hujurat 49:13)
But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace. Qur'an 8:61
Allah is He, than Whom there is no other god;- the Sovereign, the Holy One, the Source of Peace (and Perfection). Qur'an 59:23
Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just. Qur'an 60:8
And many other ayat but right now I don't have their translation in English .
And Prophet Mohammed always said to the Muslims : Fight only who Fights you . -
Well said.. I think to deny that there is any violence in the Quaran or in Islam as a whole is unhistorical and untrue. As the above poster pointed out very few religions have a perfectly peaceful history.
That being said, I think Islam is working to change this image problem. How effective they are in controlling those within their own ranks who favor inflammatory wahabi rhetoric is another matter altogether.
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People should think more about their actions, not their beliefs. What does it matter what someone believes if their conduct is vicious and brutal? Our actions make us who we are. -
The Muslim communities must take action to control the radical extremists if they don't want to also be considered radical extremists. They must also stop calling for the destruction of Israel.-
Rightly said.
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Until Muslims stop getting their panties in a knot over cartoons such as this:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jyllands-Posten_Muhammad_cartoons
They're not going to get my respect any more than followers of other imaginary friends. -
"Each of those churches show certain books, which they call revelation, or the word of God. The Jews say, that their word of God was given by God to Moses, face to face; the Christians say, that their word of God came by divine inspiration: and the Turks say, that their word of God (the Koran) was brought by an angel from Heaven. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all."--Thomas Paine -
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So long as people insist on being Muslims, Catholics, Protestants, Jews, etc., there will always be these conflicts. Their loyalty to their group will inevitably prevail over their consideration for humanity in general. There is only one side to be on-the side of life.
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' their consideration for humanity '
All religions that were sent from God aim to the goodness of the humanity -
NP, you forgot to mention that the non-religious also cause conflict with the religious. Persecution works both ways.
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Quotes from the Qur'an and Hadith on war, violence, infidels, and unbelievers:
www.letusreason.org/Islam12.htm
Your thoughts...?-
Allah gives a lifetime to the nonbelievers to come to the right path. if they don't do that and continue in there own path, why should allah forgive them in the afterworld? -
The same answer to the previous link ,
Also Islam told us to be peaceful with the unbelievers as long as they're peaceful and they don't harm us , but after judgement day they will be judge for their desbelieving just like every religion says and their punishment won't by Muslims , it will be by Allah .
And as said before who wants to know about Quran read it from its original sources not from some hater website which talkes about Quran and Hadith from its own mind not from the truth !
Some Ayat of the Quran where sent to prophet Mohammed in certain situations which need to be understood before talking about the Quran . -
Ok Uri, I think you need to know that there are some good verses as well.
"O'children of Israel! Remember My favors which I bestowed upon you; fulfill your
covenant with Me and I will fulfill My covenant with you, that you should fear none but
Me" (2:40)
"O’Children of Israel! Remember My favors which I bestowed upon You; that I exalted
you above all other nations." (2:47) (2:122) Twice
"Rest assured that Believers of Jews, Christians and Sabians - whoever
believes in Allah and the Last Day and performs good deeds - will be rewarded by
their Lord; they will have nothing to fear or to regret." (2:62)
Conclusions:
1- Attention:"Being muslim" is not a condition to go to heaven according to the last verse above.
2- The link you cited is a complete collection of wrong hadiths and interpretations.
example: “O'ye who believe! when ye meet the Unbelievers preparing for battle do not turn your backs to them. [Anyone who does] shall incur the wrath of God, and Hell shall be his home,- an evil dwelling!” (8:15)
This refers to a strategical mistake which was made by muslims in Uhud war. So many verses have historical pasts.
3- Somehow i can read the same order "kill!" in almost every Hadiths. But i cannot find any orders "kill" in Quran? So the website is completely in denial of the truth.
4- Islam didn't condemn any races but a group of people in the past. Notice that after every single warning to a group, you can find the verses that there are exceptions amongst those people as well.
5- “O'you who believe! Take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: they are but friends and protectors to each other. And he among you that turns to them for friendship is of them.”(5:51)
If you read the whole Qur'an, you can easly see the difference between definitions of Christians and Jews in Quran and modern Jews and Christians. Plus you can also find the verses that there are exceptions amongst those people as well. So guess what? I got tons of Christian and Jew friends! -
I mean i got dozens of Christian and Jewish friends.
It's like i had eaten them when i say "tons"
BTW Something happened to "edit" button!
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It isn't Islam many people have problems with. It is Islamism.-
what is islamism?
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blogcatalog is not for spammers
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I've found that too many people don't recognize the difference between Muslims and Islamists. Some of THE best people I've ever met were Muslims & I have great respect for them.-
' Muslims and Islamists '
Islamists aren't terrorists
Some of them are , who are the extremists , but the word is used in the west to describe terrorists , and it's not the right usege .
Thanks for your comment -
To L.Gramlich (above),
"I've found that too many people don't recognize the difference between Muslims and Islamists. Some of THE best people I've ever met were Muslims & I have great respect for them."
You must distinguish between Muslims as people and Islam itself. Just because Mahmoud the Muslim is 'the best person I've ever met', that does not mean that ISLAM ITSELF is 'best' or OK. Mahmoud the Muslim may be a nice person IN SPITE of Islam. Some Nazis were 'nice' socially. That doesn't make Nazism 'nice'.
As for the difference between Muslims and Islamists. The real difference, in my experience,is that the Islamists ACT, whereas everyday Muslims just get on with their lives as we do. However, you will find that a hell of a lot of ordinary 'moderate' Muslims sympathise with the Islamists and even with the terrorists - they just don't join them or carry out bombings. -
@PaulAustinMurphy
That's about the most racist comment I've seen on BC so far. Are you seriously comparing muslims to nazis? Really?
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I don't respect any religion that condemns people to eternal torture for not believing--that kind of belief goes beyond "disrespect" to outright hatred of non-believers. And yes, I know "we don't say that, God says that"--that's no excuse. You choose to worship your hateful God.-
' we don't say that, God says that '
When did anyone said that ?! , I said that the non-bleviers will be punished by Allah , not by Muslims
' I don't respect any religion that condemns people to eternal torture for not believing--that kind of belief goes beyond "disrespect" to outright hatred of non-believers '
So non-believers after Judgement Day should go to heaven just as the believers in your mind ?1 , It's completely non sense .
In this life those non-believers will be treated by their actions not by what they belive or disbelive , but after Judgement Day they'll be punished for their disbeliving in God - their creator - , and do you find any religion that says that the disbelievers will go to heaven ?1
We have to believe in : Allah , angels , the books that were send to the messangers - like the Quran - , all the messangers , destiny and fate , and Judgement Day .
that's the line between the believers and the non-believers .
' You choose to worship your ----- God. '
Read well before speaking , because this word has nothing to do with Allah or with Islam !
Some of the names of Allah are :
Ar-Rahmān : The Most Merciful in Essence, The Compassionate
Ar-Rahīm : The Most Merciful, The Most Merciful in Actions
As-Salām : The Peace and Blessing, The Source of Peace and Safety
Al-Ghaffār : The Ever Forgiving
Al-`Adl : The Utterly Just
Al-Ghafūr : The All Forgiving
Al-Wadūd : The Loving, The Kind One
Al-Haqq : The Truth, The Real
Al-Barr : The Most Kind and Righteous
Al-Hādi : The Guide
Allah is He, than Whom there is no other god;- the Sovereign, the Holy One, the Source of Peace (and Perfection). Qur'an 59:23 -
According to this God is very unforgiving and small minded - for if he does not admit someone simply because he didnt believe in him, and even if he did good deeds all his life, then it is a very selfish thinking on his part
Come off it. This is medieval education, not fit for today's scientific temperament and evolved and enlightened thinking -
To Rainhat,
'That's about the most racist comment I've seen on BC so far. Are you seriously comparing muslims to nazis? Really?'
How can my statement be racist? Some Muslims are white. Some Muslims are black. Muslims do not constitute a race. That's what Muslims keep on telling non-Muslims also.
Did I say that Muslims were Nazis? Read what I wrote again. If anything, I made a distinction between Islam and Muslims. If anything,the former is often Nazi, whereas the latter are often not. It's the ideology I was referring to. That is,that the Nazi,or Muslim,may be nice or OK but Nazism and Islam are not. I wasn't saying that Muslims are Nazis. I was using it as an example. I could have said that communists (or trainspotters) can be nice, but communism (or trainspotting) is not nice.
Of course,if it is politically useful to see people who criticise Islam as racists, that's another thing entirely.
"That's about the most racist comment I've seen on BC so far. Are you seriously comparing muslims to nazis? Really?" -
@PaulAustinMurphy
You wrote:
Just because Mahmoud the Muslim is 'the best person I've ever met', that does not mean that ISLAM ITSELF is 'best' or OK. Mahmoud the Muslim may be a nice person IN SPITE of Islam. Some Nazis were 'nice' socially. That doesn't make Nazism 'nice'.
Yeah, you were making a distinction between muslims (follower of islam) and islam (the ideology), followed by a statement that compares islam to nazism. In your response you flat out said it:
If anything, I made a distinction between Islam and Muslims. If anything,the former is often Nazi, whereas the latter are often not. It's the ideology I was referring to.
So you're saying that the ideology muslims follow is nazi, but the muslims themselves aren't? Sorry, but that makes no sense since muslims are muslims *because* they follow islam.
The real difference, in my experience,is that the Islamists ACT, whereas everyday Muslims just get on with their lives as we do. However, you will find that a hell of a lot of ordinary 'moderate' Muslims sympathise with the Islamists and even with the terrorists - they just don't join them or carry out bombings.
How would you know what "a hell of a lot of muslims" think? You seem to think that just because a person is a muslim, they automatically sympathize with what every other muslim does. My main objection here is your unfounded generalizations. Yes, there are extremists within islam, just like there are extremists in every other religion or ideology. That doesn't make the non-extremists or the same ideology any more bad or responsible than anyone else.
But you're right, "racist" isn't the right word. "Prejudiced" and bigoted" are more accurate.
How can my statement be racist? Some Muslims are white. Some Muslims are black. Muslims do not constitute a race. That's what Muslims keep on telling non-Muslims also.
What about your accusation of racism? How do you know I am not black or Asian?
What does that have to do with anything? You seem to think that only white people can be racists. I don't care if you're white, black, asian or purple with green dots. Bigots come in all colors.
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So you have no respect to any person or any way of thinking !
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God desires to have a relationship with us and He hates all forms of hatred that religions develop for people different than them. In all civilizations and religions there are people who interpret their scriptures wrong.
It is a natural thing for people to demand that we earn their respect no matter what our religion or lack of religion is. Words are important but it is our actions and not our words that make the biggest impact on whether people respect us or not.-
' In all civilizations and religions there are people who interpret their scriptures wrong '
Agree
' It is a natural thing for people to demand that we earn their respect no matter what our religion or lack of religion is '
And it also normal to demand the respect for our believe . -
Ok let's "demand the respect" from each other. Pick up your sword
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Assalamualaikum!!
totally agreed with you RawansS.I feel that honesty inside you..they don't understand what we having through...every religion have their own ways.but we follow the path that we believed..-
Wa aliukm al salam wa rahma Allah wa Barkatuh
' but we follow the path that we believed.. '
Always insha'a Allah
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Who really believes the spokesperson for Al-Q and grandson of a former director of the ADL is the "real deal"?
www.prisonplanet.com/articles/may2007/300507phonytape.htm -
Buddha is ubiquous and buddha respects every thing in the universe. -
It's often forgotten-or overlooked-that the principle victims of the 'Muslim' fanatics, bombers and terrorists are Muslims themselves.-
To Anastasia:
"It's often forgotten-or overlooked-that the principle victims of the 'Muslim' fanatics, bombers and terrorists are Muslims themselves."
Absolutely! Yasser Arafat killed more Palestinians than Israel. Hamas are still killing Muslim Palestinians for non-conformity. The Turks, Iraqis, Iranians and Syrians (all Muslims) have made the lives of Muslim Kurds hell. Saddam Hussein, a Muslim, killed far, far more Muslims than Israel or even the US in the Iraq war. The current Iraqi Muslim insurgents are also killing their fellow Muslims on a large scale. The same is true in Pakistan and Afghanistan.
So what Muslims really hate is not the death of Muslim per say. But the killing of Muslims by NON-MUSLIMS. Muslims can happily kill non-Muslims. It is even acceptable for Muslims to kill Muslims. Just as long as non-Muslims don't do the killing. -
Muslims can happily kill non-Muslims. It is even acceptable for Muslims to kill Muslims. Just as long as non-Muslims don't do the killing.
I say Bullshit to that. Do you honestly think people care who's doing it if their country is attacked and bombed and people start dying? They're going to do whatever they can to defend themselves, regardless of if the attacker is muslim or otherwise.
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I respect all religion. All religions are like brother and sister, we are all in one. We are one big family.
Let's love all, put down selfishness.
Let's smile and hug each others, no more conflict, no more worries,etc. -
Humm, very interesting posts. I used to hate any replies that were against Muslims. However, what we must understand is, someone’s hatred comments about our religion are not against us, they are against actions of others, and at times, they happened to be Muslims.
I have nothing to say to those who talk ill about Islam and Muslims. We should not blame them for this, we need to fix our actions and let others know what our religion teaches us through our actions, by practicing peace, by helping others, not by getting angry with those who dislike our belief or what Quran says.
An action speaks louder than words. Forget about what Quran said good or bad, if we become walking example of goodness what Quran ask us, there is no reason anyone else will dislike Islam. If we start to respect another human being, regardless of his or her faith, we can be happy all together.-
Another thing is that, we cannot demand respect. True respect has to be earned.
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The important advice indeed.
If we start to respect another human being, regardless of his or her faith, we can be happy all together.
This is what I like to see.
Let's smile more and sing the song " Dont worry , be happy."
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To Rainhat:
"I say Bullshit to that. Do you honestly think people care who's doing it if their country is attacked and bombed and people start dying? They're going to do whatever they can to defend themselves, regardless of if the attacker is muslim or otherwise."
I was primarily talking about the attitude of Muslims in the UK and Us towards wars and killings in other parts of the world. Yes, a bomb from anyone will kill you. But here in the UK a hell of a lot of Muslims only focus on the cases in which non-Muslims are killing Muslims. Muslims only talk about Iraq, Palestine and Afghanistan, on the whole. They don't ever talk about the south Thais Buddhists who are the victims of a Thai jihad, in which more people have died in the last five years than have died in Palestine. They don't talk about the right of the Kurds for land because it is other Muslims who are oppressing them. They don't talk abot the black Christians and animists, 2 million of them, who have been killed by the Sudanese Arab/Islamic jihad in the south. You don't here anything about the Christians, Sikhs and Hindus being 'oppressed' in Pakistan. Etc.
What about your accusation of racism? How do you know I am not black or Asian?-
You generalize. How would you know what all muslims think? There is no "they" when it comes to these things. Just because muslims have one thing in common (following islam), it doesn't mean that they are likeminded morons who always agree on everything. Saying that "they" think [x] is nothing but a symptom of your preconceived notions about muslims.
I was primarily talking about the attitude of Muslims in the UK and Us towards wars and killings in other parts of the world.
Again, how would you know anything about the attitudes of the muslims in the UK and the US? You know what you've heard *individuals* state about these things. These individuals don't speak for all muslims any more than one single christian speaks for the entire christian population in the US or UK. -
well said, rainhat.
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To RawanS:
"Reading what some haters write about Islam , and you'll feel one thing the extreme hate and making things up and saying that they're from the Quran and the Hadith they mentioned things I know really well but I found in them things that're unreal which those haters made up , and spreaded them saying that's the Quran or the Hadith !"
Are the brutal and violent passages in the Koran 'made up'? I don't think they are. I've read the Koran and would say, off hand, that there are at least a 100 passages which encourage and condone violent jihad. Of course I haven't read the Koran in the Arabic. But why is this so important to Muslims? Is Allah an Arab? If not, why this stress on the Arabic nature of both the Koran and even Allah himself? That is not really universalism.
As for misquotes or misrepresentations of the Koran. Does that apply to positive passages from the Koran as well as negative ones? Take this:
'If you kill one person, it is as if you have killed all mankind.'
Very good. This is often quoted at non-Muslims. However, the unabridged version goes like this:
'If you kill one person, EXCEPT FOR VILLAINY IN THE LAND, it is as if you have killed all mankind.'
So what is 'villainy'? Being a Hindu? Creating cartoons of the Prophet? Criticising Islam in any way? Etc.
On the many contradictions in the Koran. They don't surprise me. And I do not feel the need to try and square all the contradictory passages with each other. They are contradictory because Muhamed was not a logician or a philosopher. He was largely uneducated and was bound to contradict himself. Or at least all the people who constructed the Koran after his death were not logicians and were therefore bound to contradict themselves.-
Are the brutal and violent passages in the Koran 'made up'? I don't think they are. I've read the Koran and would say, off hand, that there are at least a 100 passages which encourage and condone violent jihad.
How many passages are there that encourage and condone peace and understanding?
Of course I haven't read the Koran in the Arabic. But why is this so important to Muslims? Is Allah an Arab? If not, why this stress on the Arabic nature of both the Koran and even Allah himself? That is not really universalism.
One answer is that any translation would be influenced by the translator, so the exact original meaning would be altered.
Also, and this is just my theory, but it could be for the exact same reason the roman catholic church introduced musical notation to make sure you could sing the exact same songs in every church, regardless of where you came from, or why the mass was conducted in latin everywhere. Familiarity, connection and belonging. If the prayers are done in arabic and the koran is written in arabic everywhere, that means a muslim from indonesia can attend a prayer meeting in Egypt and feel right at home and able to do things the familiar way.
Christianity has gone over to localized songs, prayer and sermons, which means a christian church-goer from France is out of luck if he goes to church in Bulgaria since he has no clue what anyone is saying. For a better sense of connection and understanding, it's better if the same language is used everywhere, don't you think?
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Religion is bad for you.
Let me rephrase:
Your religion is bad for me. Regardless of whether it is Islam, Christanity, Wicca or NFL. -
I think that people who don't understand a specific religion find it easy to fear it. People who understand only a little about a specific religion find it easy to twist it into something evil. People who don't understand religion at all find it easy to mock it. And the media then feeds off of all the conflict, showing the extremes of each behavior.
I personally don't know a lot about Islam, but I have deep respect for the people who faithfully follow the spiritual disciplines of that religion.-
I agree. It's also very easy to judge an entire religion based on what you've heard only a few followers of that religion say or do. Just because you're a follower of a certain religion, it doesn't mean that everything you do is in the name of that religion, or even remotely representative of that religion.
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To Angellawd:
“I think that people who don't understand a specific religion find it easy to fear it. People who understand only a little about a specific religion find it easy to twist it into something evil. People who don't understand religion at all find it easy to mock it. And the media then feeds off of all the conflict, showing the extremes of each behavior. I personally don't know a lot about Islam, but I have deep respect for the people who faithfully follow the spiritual disciplines of that religion.”
Perhaps some people fear a religion because they DO understand it. In the Koran it talks about hellfire and eternal torture. Burning sinners and then putting their skins back on to re-burn. It talks about beating your wife. It talks about killing Jews and not taking Christians as friends. It says that Jews are ‘pigs’. It talks about the crucifixion and amputation of apostates and criminals. Etc. There is a lot to fear in the Koran. The ‘good’ parts of the Koran about ‘peace ‘n’ love’ come from the early parts of the Koran, before Muhammad had power. All these good bits are ‘abrogated’ (or contradicted) by later passages. This is not surprising. Mohamed was not a logician by trade.
Why assume that religion can only be bad if it is ‘twisted’ into being bad by bad people? Why can’t a religion ITSELF be bad? Isn’t that at least possible? What about the bad aspect of Aztec religion when twenty thousand people were sacrificed to the sun god by having their hearts pulled out? Perhaps this is also true of a monotheistic religion – Islam. As least contemplate the possibility that a bad religion does not require bad people to ‘twist’ or distort it.
What do you mean by ‘the media’ showing the ‘extremes’ of Islam? Why do you assume, like Chomsky, that people are so easily brainwashed by the Media (a platonic entity)? The media includes the Internet, the Guardian in the UK (which has at least six Islamists on its staff), the pro-Islam BBC, the pro-Islam Observer and Independent, etc.
If you ‘don’t know a lot about Islam’, why do you automatically ‘respect’ its followers? I wouldn’t respect any follower of an ideology or religion unless I knew enough about his or her religion or ideology. -
By just mentioning the negative parts of the Koran, without the context and entire meaning, you add proof to my point that people who understand only a little bit about a religion can twist it into something evil. I'm not qualified to speak on the subject of Islam, but I can tell you that many people who only know a little about Christianity are quick to point out the hell and damnation parts, but do not discuss (or perhaps understand) the entire religion.
That said, there are negative parts to all the religions I've heard about. Again, I'm not qualified to say whether a particular religion is bad or good, other than the one I follow. But I think that anyone who interprets their belliefs as justification for killing or persecuting others is a bad person. For example, both the Catholic people who ran the Spanish Inquisition and the Communist Russian people who carried out pogroms against the Jews are evil, in my opinion.
The media is not platonic or objective. In fact, it is impossible for a writer to be completely objective in any field. The extreme always gets media attention. One fanatic will get hours of airtime, but the millions of people doing good on the same day will not be mentioned. The same is true on the internet. Millions participate in blogs and internet stories about the strange and extreme.
I don't "automatically" approve of Islam. From what I've learned in comparative and philosophy of religion classes, devout Muslims follow daily spiritual disciplines, give to the poor, and set aside times to focus on their spiritual growth. I admire those particular things. I would admire the practices of anyone who sets daily time for self-improvement and mental health, and who devotes significant time to bettering the world.
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“You generalize. How would you know what all muslims think? There is no "they" when it comes to these things. Just because muslims have one thing in common (following islam), it doesn't mean that they are likeminded morons who always agree on everything. Saying that "they" think [x] is nothing but a symptom of your preconceived notions about muslims.”
It’s funny that you keep on saying that I ‘generalise’ about Muslims when one of my main points I was making is the distinction between Islam and the followers of Islam. Aren’t you generalising about ALL critics of Islam and Muslims by assuming they know nothing about Islam? That they are All bigots or racists? That they know NO Muslims personally, etc? I don’t know what ‘all’ Muslims think but I have spoken to many; I have read things in the newspapers, on the Net; and I have seen surveys and statistics. On your view you could not say anything because almost every sentence anyone utters contains some generalisation or other. You generalise about critics of Islam.
I haven’t said that ‘all’ Muslims agree on ‘everything’. Why would ANYONE need to claim that? However, their religion contains enough components to have the negative effects I have described. And yes, don’t you generalise about critics of Islam? Some of us have read the Koran, the hadiths, etc. as well as read about the life of Muhammad and the history of Islam. You cannot say that I have ‘preconceived notions of Islam’. That is an assumption and a generalisation about critics of Islam. What I do have is a critical attitude to Islam. That is not the same as being ignorant or of having ‘preconceived notions’ about Islam. Unless you believe that if you are negative towards Islam and Muslims you must be ignorant by definition.
“Again, how would you know anything about the attitudes of the muslims in the UK and the US? You know what you've heard *individuals* state about these things. These individuals don't speak for all muslims any more than one single christian speaks for the entire christian
population in the US or UK.”
I don’t understand what you are saying in the above. If we can’t go on what ‘individuals’ say, what can we go on? Unless you are saying that I should study Islam and the Koran, which I have. If individuals don’t speak for Islam, who does? The ‘individual’ Muslims who say good things about peace but not the ones who speak about jihad? Even the Muslims who do speak about peace we must realise that it is the ‘peace’ supplied by Islam itself. It is the peace which comes from complete submission to Allah. And it is the peace which comes from societies which adopt sharia law or even the peace which comes from the universal Umma when all unbelief is eradicated, as it has been many times in Islamic history.-
It’s funny that you keep on saying that I ‘generalise’ about Muslims when one of my main points I was making is the distinction between Islam and the followers of Islam.
You do understand the meaning of the word "generalize", yes? You generalize by saying "Islam is [x]" based on what you've heard from a few muslims and from what you've read and concluded yourself. My point is that you collect a rather incomplete amount of information and then conclude that your own opinion about islam is fact and truth.
Tell me: Since there are over 1,5 BILLION muslims in the world, which are divided into several different denominations (mainly sunni and shi'a), how can you say "islam is like this"? Please tell me you at least understand that the vast majority of those 1,5 billion muslims want nothing to do with terrorists, war or extremist?
Aren’t you generalising about ALL critics of Islam and Muslims by assuming they know nothing about Islam?
If you think I'm generalizing about critics of islam, then please to back and read my reply again, because you clearly don't understand what I'm saying. I'm not generalizing, and I'm not criticizing critics of islam. I'm very specifically criticizing your arguments only.
I don’t know what ‘all’ Muslims think but I have spoken to many; I have read things in the newspapers, on the Net; and I have seen surveys and statistics.
So, would you say that you have spoken to enough muslims (out of those 1 500 000 000) to have received an accurate and representative view on islam? Do you honestly think that what you read about islam in the newspapers and online gives you the whole picture? You know as well as I do (I hope) that there is no news value in writing about a muslim family who's having dinner at home, minding their own business, never doing anything controversial or wrong. Newspapers write about stuff that stands out, about stuff that is NOT representative of the norm.
You generalise about critics of Islam.
Again, I'm criticizing your arguments specifically. I haven't said a single word about critics of islam in general.
I haven’t said that ‘all’ Muslims agree on ‘everything’.
Yes, you actually have. I quote:
Muslims only talk about Iraq, Palestine and Afghanistan, on the whole. They don't ever talk about the south Thais Buddhists who are the victims of a Thai jihad, in which more people have died in the last five years than have died in Palestine. They don't talk about the right of the Kurds for land because it is other Muslims who are oppressing them. They don't talk abot the black Christians and animists, 2 million of them, who have been killed by the Sudanese Arab/Islamic jihad in the south.
...
So what Muslims really hate is not the death of Muslim per say. But the killing of Muslims by NON-MUSLIMS.
See? You keep saying "they", as if all muslims were one single cohesive group, as if all the members agree on everything, think the same way and say and do all the same things. You say "they don't ever talk about" and "what muslims really hate". *That* is generalization. It's just as stupid as if I were to say that all christians hate muslims, or that all men beat their wives. Sure, some of them do. But that doesn't mean that THEY ALL do, ok?
However, their religion contains enough components to have the negative effects I have described.
Are you telling me other religions don't? You can't name one single ideology that doesn't have flaws or negative elements. Does that mean they are all inherently bad and useless? Of course not.
Some of us have read the Koran, the hadiths, etc. as well as read about the life of Muhammad and the history of Islam. You cannot say that I have ‘preconceived notions of Islam’.
Yes, I can. You've read the Koran. Well, good for you, but I get the distinct impression that you read it in order to find stuff to shoot down, not to try and understand how muslims live by it. As I said, there are over 1 500 000 000 muslims in the world. I bet they've read the Koran too, and still they don't seem to be focusing on jihad, war and terror against other people. Now, why is it that your conclusions outweigh theirs? You've looked up the negatives parts, and you're saying that islam is bad because of them. Well, have a look at the bible, for example. There's quite a bit of violence and death in there too. Does that mean that christianity is based on death, violence and war against non-christians?
What I do have is a critical attitude to Islam. That is not the same as being ignorant or of having ‘preconceived notions’ about Islam.
No, you don't. You have a critical attitude towards what you *think* islam is, which seems to be a rather distorted view. You have preconceived notions, and you're criticizing those notions, not what islam actually is all about.
I don’t understand what you are saying in the above.
Then read it again.
If we can’t go on what ‘individuals’ say, what can we go on? Unless you are saying that I should study Islam and the Koran, which I have.
Reading a book is not the same thing as understanding it. How about you study the koran *with* a muslim teacher? How about you try to understand how the normal, average family interprets the koran? How about you go talk to an imam and see what he thinks about it?
If individuals don’t speak for Islam, who does? The ‘individual’ Muslims who say good things about peace but not the ones who speak about jihad?
See, now you're starting to get it. It's not all black or white. You ask me who speaks for islam, the peaceful muslim or the militant muslim. Well, right back at you! You finally acknowledged that there are opposing ideas within islam. So let me ask you: Why do you think that islam is what only the militant muslim says it is?
Even the Muslims who do speak about peace we must realise that it is the ‘peace’ supplied by Islam itself. It is the peace which comes from complete submission to Allah. And it is the peace which comes from societies which adopt sharia law or even the peace which comes from the universal Umma when all unbelief is eradicated, as it has been many times in Islamic history.
That is *your* interpretation of it. Quite clearly, most muslims don't agree with you. I have muslim friends, and let me tell you, they have never once been interested in even trying to convert me or anyone else. The militant interpretation is far from the only one.
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To Rainhat
‘You do understand the meaning of the word "generalize", yes? You generalize by saying "Islam is [x]" based on what you've heard from a few muslims and from what you've read and concluded yourself. My point is that you collect a rather incomplete amount of information and then conclude that your own opinion about islam is fact and truth.’
According to you, I cannot get a proper view of Islam unless I talk to each one of the billion.5 Muslims who inhabit the world. That means I couldn’t have had a proper view of Nazism unless I had talked to the 250+ million Nazis who lived in Europe and beyond in the 1930 and 40s. And communists? I would have needed to talk to about a 500 million of them before saying anything critical.
But what if I had said something positive about Islam or Muslims? Would you have said:
‘Yes, you think that “Islam is peace”, but have you talked to every one of the billion Muslims in the world? They may not agree with you.’
Of course not. If I had said brainlessly positive things about Islam you would not have bothered to correct such a contributor to this site. And yet they have no more right to say positive things about Islam than I have to say negative things. That is, according to your extreme and impossible view that in order to say ANYTHING about any religion you must speak to EVERY upholder of that religion. But of course you would not have demanded this impossible feat if I had said something positive. In fact I don't think you have the same high standards for every religion and certainly not for every ideology.
It doesn’t matter if there are a billion Muslims in the world who are divided into many 'denominations' because they must all share SOMETHING otherwise they wouldn’t be Muslims. Don’t all communists or Trotskyists share SOMETHING even though there are many ‘denominations’? What Muslims share is the Koran. And I find that book an abomination. Whether or not I have read it just to 'pick out the bad bits' is irrelevant. That is a psychological point on your part. I could just as easily say that you pick out the good bits. But when there are over are over a hundred (or more) passages (in a fairly small book of 80,000 words) which refer to violent jihad, your argument must be backed up.
Your logic is simple. No one can say anything negative about Islam unless he has questioned the 1.5 billion people who are Muslims. However, if someone on this site says positive things about Islam, he or she does not need to question the 1.5 billion people who are Muslims. Indeed, you probably wouldn’t even ask a naïve Islamophile to speak to a SINGLE Muslim about Islam. As long as his or her views are positive.
Anyway. What do your 'Muslim friends' think about the Iraq war? Did they favour it? What do they think about Afghanistan? Do they favour the interventions there? Were they happy that the Danish cartoons of Muhammad were not banned? Are there no-go Muslim areas in your country? I bet your friends respond in the negative to all of these. 99% of Britian's 'heterogeneous' Muslims believe that Rushdie should have been killed. That the Danish cartoons should have been banned. That the toppling of Saddam Hussein was wrong. Etc. And yes, most of this applies to the ‘heterogeneous’ Sufis as well as the Amaddiya.
I see where you are going. Only unsophisticated people ‘generalise’ about Islam. (Though you may allow me to do so about things you too are against.) However, I realise that there are 1.5 billion Muslims - all with their individual views on Islam. Very sophisticated. However, it renders you impotent when it comes to Islamism and the rise of Islam. There may well be some Muslims who run lesbian collectives in Karachi or who play in thrash metal bands in Afghanistan. There were some Nazis who were not anti-Semitic. But where does this sophistication get you with the Nazis, Muslims or any other group? If I say that water comes out of my tap, am I generalising? Once water did not come out of my tap. Thus I am a generaliser. However, the assumption that water comes out of my tap seems to work practically.
You have given the game away by saying that you have 'Muslim friends'. I believe that it just about motivating everything you write. Joseph Chamberlain, in the 1930s, might well have said to himself, and others, that he had Nazi friends. You know, they were good to know in a social context. They liked a drink and told jokes – ‘just like us’. And they were good Christians.
Of course there are a few good aspects to Islam. There were good aspects to Nazism and Fascism. They made the trains run on time. They cured unemployment. The assuaged the worries of the middle classes. They kept the streets clean.
There were also different denominations of fascism. The Italian variety was very different to the German (not as anti-Semitic). Ireland had its fascist party which had its own peculiarities (being losely allied to the Catholic Church). There were fascist parties in Hungary, Bulgaria, etc. and they all had there own peculiarities. However, they were all fascist. Just as all Muslims subscribe to Islam and read the Koran. And that is enough for my ‘generalising’ mind. -
To Angellawd:
“By just mentioning the negative parts of the Koran, without the context and entire meaning, you add proof to my point that people who understand only a little bit about a religion can twist it into something evil. I'm not qualified to speak on the subject of Islam,
but I can tell you that many people who only know a little about Christianity are quick to point out the hell and damnation parts, but do not discuss (or perhaps understand) the entire religion.”
Don’t you, or at least others on this site, ‘just mention the positive parts of the Koran’? Let’s say, for argument, that the negative/positive ratio in the Koran is 50/50. You would probably say that the 50% negative parts should be ‘interpreted’ or ‘set in context’. However, the positive parts do not need to be set in context or interpreted; do they? I would say that Muhammad, and the people who wrote the Koran after him, were not logicians, so the negative/positive contradictions are not a surprise to me or anyone else who does not place too much faith in the writings of prophets and other religious leaders.
How much of Islam ‘do I need to understand’ to say positive things about Islam? You yourself have said that you don’t know much about Islam. That has not stopped you from saying positive things about it. Or is it only the critics who must study the Koran for twenty years and see an Islamic scholar before they dare say anything critical? Perhaps you are ‘twisting’ Islam into something positive, rather than negative.
As for the ‘hell and damnation parts’ of Christianity. I am not a Christian, so I do not need to defend it. However, most, if not all, of the fire and brimstone is to be found in the Old Testament, which is a huge set of works written by many people. The Koran is supposed to be the word of Allah. True in every part and for all time. Many Christians reject the Old Testament – at least most of it. Incidentally, if one reads the Koran one can see how the Old Testament influenced Muhammad, especially the violence and the nastiness. I don’t think the New Testament affected him at all.
Do I need to understand ‘the entire’ ideology of Nazism to reject it? Do I need to study Mein Kampf before I can criticise it? Do I need to see a Nazi ‘scholar’? Or take communism. Do I need to ploy through Das Kapital before I dare criticise Marxism? No one really understands the ‘entirety’ of anything. But why should that stop them from being positive or negative about it? Certainly most Muslims I have known know less about Islam than I do. But that doesn’t seem to matter to the Islamophiles because they obviously view Islam positively.-
You're right, I do see some people on the Internet only pointing out positive things about their religion. Thanks for giving the example of a theoretical religious text in terms of 50% good/50% bad. I think both parts should be considered in context and through scholarship.
"How much of Islam ‘do I need to understand’ to say positive things
about Islam?...Or is it only the critics who must study the Koran for twenty years and see an Islamic scholar before they dare say anything critical? Perhaps you are ‘twisting’ Islam into something positive, rather than negative."
I don't know enough about Islam to give you an answer on this just as I can't reply to your questions on Nazis or other groups you mentioned. What I can say is that I have studied the bible for 15 years and think I have a fairly good handle on the basics, but I am always learning more. I have also taken many religious study classes and listen to weekly sermons about my religion.
"You yourself have said that you don’t know much about Islam. That has not stopped you from saying positive things about it."
I'm sorry if my previous positive statement was unclear. All that I have said I admire about Islam is the religious disciplines the devout follow.
Just to add to your statements about the Old/New Testaments, the other thing I know about Islam is that Muhammed believed in the Old Testament, and believed that their people came from Abraham, just like Jews and Christians believe. Muhammed believed that Jesus was a prophet, not the son of God, so I've learned that the New Testament is not as widely accepted (Muslims, please step in if I have misspoken).
In my original comment, I gave what I think are the reasons why many people fear, misrepresent, or dislike religions. I'm sorry if this offended you - that was not my intention. Perhaps none of those reasons characterize you.
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I'm not a big supporter of any religions because they steer us away from who we truly are, which are spiritual beings. If the world was free of religion, we wouldn't have so many conflicts over whose God is better.
I believed that all human beings are one, no matter the race and gender. We are all brothers and sisters. People who judge others because of their beliefs, race, gender, etc., lack understanding. The main reason why someone would judge is because he/she doesn't understand the situation of the person he/she is judging. If he/she was able to switch place with the person who he/she was judging for a month, he/she will probably not judge that person anymore.
No matter what religion people followed, whether it is Islam or Christianity, there are always negative and positive aspects of it. Some people will use religion for good things and some will use it for bad things. It's just the way the world works. If people attack you because of your beliefs, look them in the eye and try to recognize their confusion. Then smile and walk away, no need to fight. -
@PaulAustinMurphy
According to you, I cannot get a proper view of Islam unless I talk to each one of the billion.5 Muslims who inhabit the world.
*sigh* No. That's not what I said. Please go back and read my reply again. I said "talk to ENOUGH of those 1,5 billion to get a REPRESENTATIVE view on islam." That means you need to talk to more than just "a few" of them, and you need to talk to more than just the militant anti-everybody-else muslims that want to start a jihad against everyone who's not muslim.
Look, you're obviously not getting what I'm saying, so let me state this as clearly as I can:
I do not care one bit if you like islam or not. If you don't like islam, fine. Then don't become a muslim. That's not a problem. What I do have a problem with is you saying stupid shit like "Islam is nazi" based on unfounded ideas that you have decided upon after reading the koran, noticed that there are parts about jihad in there, and after talking to a few of the muslims that hate everyone else. That's like saying christianity is all about racism and war after talking to a few Ku Klux Klan members and reading the parts of the bible that are about death and violence.
In fact I don't think you have the same high standards for every religion and certainly not for every ideology.
I do, actually. Again, I really don't care what it is you don't like. This is not about islam. This is about you calling the second biggest religion in the world "Nazi" because you don't like it. Yes, islam is the second biggest religion in the world, and at the current rate it's the fastest growing religion as well. Yet you seem to somehow conclude that all these people are all clueless because *you* don't like it.
So again: Go study the koran - the WHOLE koran, not just the parts about Jihad - with a muslim teacher, or at a university or something. Talk to more people. Talk to muslims of different views and denominations. Try to understand WHY islam is the fastest growing religion, and WHY it is the second biggest religion in the world. I'll give you a clue ahead of time and tell you that it's *not* because all those people converting like the idea of jihad and war on other people.
After you do all this, if you still don't like islam, then yay skippy hurray. That's your prerogative. But then at least you'll know what the hell you're talking about instead of spouting nonsense like "islam is nazi".
It doesn’t matter if there are a billion Muslims in the world who are divided into many 'denominations' because they must all share SOMETHING otherwise they wouldn’t be Muslims.
...
Don’t all communists or Trotskyists share SOMETHING even though there are many ‘denominations’? What Muslims share is the Koran. And I find that book an abomination. Whether or not I have read it just to 'pick out the bad bits' is irrelevant.
And this is exactly the problem. You read the koran, and since *you* didn't like it, everyone who does must be a stupid nazi. Well, guess what. It's not irrelevant. If you read the koran just to pick out the bad bits and have something to whine about, then you really do have no clue what islam is all about because you're not even trying to understand it. Then you didn't read the koran to know what you're talking about, you read it because you had already made up your mind about islam and wanted more ammo. And *that*, my friend, makes you prejudiced.
But when there are over are over a hundred (or more) passages (in a fairly small book of 80,000 words) which refer to violent jihad, your argument must be backed up.
Again, how many passages are there about other stuff, like say, tolerance and understanding? Family matters? Devotion?
Your logic is simple. No one can say anything negative about Islam unless he has questioned the 1.5 billion people who are Muslims.
Again, you completely did not understand what I was saying. You do not need to talk to all of them, you just need to get more than one opinion about it. Talking to a few muslims who all want jihad on all non-muslims just does not give you the whole picture about islam.
Anyway. What do your 'Muslim friends' think about the Iraq war? Did they favour it?
Like many non-muslims, they were against it, because they believe that US invaded without good reason, since they didn't actually have any evidence that there were weapons of mass destruction there.
What do they think about Afghanistan?
Just like many non-muslims, they are fine with the idea of catching a bunch of idiots who kill people for no better reason than their own arrogance.
Were they happy that the Danish cartoons of Muhammad were not banned?
As far as I could tell, they couldn't care less about cartoons in some newspaper. You seem to find it hard to believe that some muslims aren't as hardcore as the jihad-promoters you talked to.
Are there no-go Muslim areas in your country?
What the hell is a no-go muslim area?
I bet your friends respond in the negative to all of these.
Why? Because they are muslims? As you can see, you're wrong. But even if they had been against all these things, what has that got to do with them being muslims? The iraq war - most of the non-muslims I know were against it for the same reasons. It has nothing to do with islam. Afghanistan? The Bush administration loved to meddle with things and invade countries left and right. Getting rid of Bin Laden isn't a bad thing, necessarily, but invading a country and subjecting everyone in that area to occupation just to get to the talibans is stupid. Many muslims agree with this, as do non-muslims. The drawings in the danish newspaper? Islam forbids depictions of the prophet. The danish newspaper knows that, and they were still disrespectful and stupid enough to print them anyway. They knew it was going to piss off an entire religion, but printed it anyway and then hid behind freedom of expression. Common sense on the editor's part could have prevented the whole mess.
You seem to think all muslims should be against those three issues. Why? Simply because they're muslims? You seem to assume that a muslim couldn't possibly disagree with or be against something another muslim does. Guess what. I'm an atheist. Does that mean that I automatically agree with other atheists? Of course not. I agree with people because I think they are right, not because they happen to subscribe to the same ideology. I would imagine a lot of other people, muslims as well as non-muslims, think the same way.
99% of Britian's 'heterogeneous' Muslims believe that Rushdie should have been killed.
How do you know that? And what do you mean by 'heterogenous' muslims?
I see where you are going. Only unsophisticated people ‘generalise’ about Islam. (Though you may allow me to do so about things you too are against.)
Apparently you don't see where I am going. Generalizing about *anything* is thoughtless, be it positive, negative, for or against. And no, whether I agree with you or not has nothing to do with it. If you agree with me because of a prejudice, you're dumb. Me agreeing with you doesn't make you any less dumb.
However, I realise that there are 1.5 billion Muslims - all with their individual views on Islam. Very sophisticated.
Huh? It's sophisticated of 1.5 billion people to have their own opinions? No, that's not sophisticated, that's normal common sense.
However, it renders you impotent when it comes to Islamism and the rise of Islam.
You're telling me you can't be against islamist extremists without being against islam in general? Bullshit.
You have given the game away by saying that you have 'Muslim friends'. I believe that it just about motivating everything you write.
You think this is a game? Sigh... Me having muslim friends really has nothing to do with this. I have jewish friends, christian friends, hindu friends, atheist friends, catholic friends, agnostic friends, buddhist friends and people who simply don't give a shit as friends too. In every single case, these friends are in no way responsible for whatever other people do in the name of the ideologies they happen to subscribe to.
Of course there are a few good aspects to Islam. There were good aspects to Nazism and Fascism. They made the trains run on time. They cured unemployment. The assuaged the worries of the middle classes. They kept the streets clean.
Which is completely besides the point, because these ideologies were still based on oppression and exclusion of groups that they didn't like. The nazis were responsible for killing millions of people in concentration camps and in wars. Do you think keeping the streets clean makes that ok? A competent leader could have achieved all the positive aspects without slaughtering people on top of it.
However, they were all fascist. Just as all Muslims subscribe to Islam and read the Koran. And that is enough for my ‘generalising’ mind.
And that is exactly why you're a bigot rather than just critical of islam. All your assumptions seem to be based on the presumption that islam is evil, nazi and fascist, and that muslims are evil because they follow islam. It seems you never intended to understand more about islam. Rather, you decided that islam is bad, and you're arguing to defend that view. Well, obviously since you think it's bad, almost a quarter of the world's population must be delusional. -
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Waale-kum-Assalam...
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To Rainhat:
“Look, you're obviously not getting what I'm saying, so let me state
this as clearly as I can:”
Touché! You are not getting me either. But this is what always happens on these sites. You should know that. However, this site is called ‘Respecting Islam’, so maybe you expected everyone to agree with you.
“I do not care one bit if you like islam or not. If you don't like islam, fine. Then don't become a muslim. That's not a problem. What I do have a problem with is you saying stupid shit like "Islam is nazi" based on unfounded ideas that you have decided upon after reading the koran, noticed that there ar parts about jihad in there, and after talking to a few of the muslims that hate everyone else. That's like saying christianity is all about racism and war after talking to a few Ku Klux Klan members and reading the parts of the bible that are about death and violence.”
And I don’t care if you don’t care that I don’t care for Islam. Yes? ‘If I don’t like Islam, don’t become a Muslim’. Is that like: ‘If you don’t like the KKK, don’t become a member’? Otherwise all will be fine?
I never said that ‘Islam is Nazi’. That’s just what you need to defeat your ‘racist’ opponents. I gave examples of the Nazis as having millions upon millions of supporters – but so what. I gave the example of nice Nazis. But so what. However, I do think that there is a lot of connections between Nazism and Islam:
1) Anti-Semitism
2) Totalitarianism
3) Medievalism
4) Anti-homosexuality
5) Militaristic
6) Intolerant
7) Imperialistic
8) Unthinking loyalty to Allah or the leader. And so on.
Check out Hitler’s friend, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem. Who helped Hitler plan the Holocaust, amongst many other IslamoNazi things.-
I never said that ‘Islam is Nazi’. That’s just what you need to defeat your ‘racist’ opponents.
Actually, that's exactly what you said. Your words:
Did I say that Muslims were Nazis? Read what I wrote again. If anything, I made a distinction between Islam and Muslims. If anything,the former is often Nazi, whereas the latter are often not.
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To Rainhat:
*)” This is about you calling the second biggest religion in the world "Nazi" because you don't like it. Yes, islam is the second biggest religion in the world, and at the current rate it's the fastest growing religion as well. Yet you seem to somehow conclude that all these people are all clueless because *you* don't like it.”
I didn’t know that the truth rested in numbers. The ‘world’s second biggest religion’ - therefore it must be true or right? But it contradicts the biggest religion, which must be truer and righter because the numbers are higher. How many people believed the earth was flat in the Middle Ages and before? Virtually everyone. So what!
I don’t think it is as simple as my not ‘liking’ Islam. You are right. I don’t like it. But there are a thousand reasons why I don’t like it: Sharia law, anti-Semitism, medievalism, imperialism, slavery, misogyny, arrogance, totalitarianism, theocracy, amputation, death for apostasy, the Twin Towers, the London and Madrid bombings, the killing of the south Thais, the Christian exodus from Iraq, burning down churches in Pakistan, the destruction of the Buddhist temples in Afghanistan, the drug-jihad in the UK, the Muslim street gangs in the UK, the pimping of 'infidel whores' in the UK………. Get my point?
Your problem is that you are full of your own pious attitude towards Islam. You are like the Puritans of old. ‘I am more of an Islamophile than you.’ ‘I embrace more diversity than you!’ ‘I love Muslims and brown people more than you do.’
I think your bigoted and unthinking embracing of Islam in toto has more do with your own self-regard and your own politically-correct piety than has to do with any genuine love of Islam. You are just like the members of the Socialist Workers Party here in the UK. They don’t really love Islam. But they think that they can use Muslims and Islam politically. Also, the more they love Islam they more they fit into leftist or politically-correct fashion. The problem with them, and you, is that one day it may happen that you will wake up to sharia law and see that it is no different from ‘multicultural diversity’. More than that, one day a Muslim may kill you for being an atheist. It has happened a million and more times before. I know that Canada and Sweden, especially Canada, are already going in that direction. Good look and good bye. I am wasting my time on suicidally pious people like you.-
I didn’t know that the truth rested in numbers. The ‘world’s second biggest religion’ - therefore it must be true or right? But it contradicts the biggest religion, which must be truer and righter because the numbers are higher.
You seem to think it's somehow a competition between christianity and islam. Christianity being bigger does not in any way prove islam to be bad. And you're right, the numbers *alone* do not prove anything, but can you honestly say think islam is the fastest growing religion because all the people converting are somehow more stupid than you and fail to see what you see?
I don’t think it is as simple as my not ‘liking’ Islam. You are right. I don’t like it. But there are a thousand reasons why I don’t like it: Sharia law, anti-Semitism, medievalism, imperialism, slavery, misogyny, arrogance, totalitarianism, theocracy, amputation, death for apostasy, the Twin Towers, the London and Madrid bombings, the killing of the south Thais, the Christian exodus from Iraq, burning down churches in Pakistan, the destruction of the Buddhist temples in Afghanistan, the drug-jihad in the UK, the Muslim street gangs in the UK, the pimping of 'infidel whores' in the UK………. Get my point?
Yes, I get your point. I just think you are basing your conclusions on false data. It seems that in your mind the actions of islamist extremists = islam. Now do you get my point? This is it: Islam as an ideology is not responsible for those things. The people carrying out the actions are. If people kill in the name of islam, it's because of their interpretation of islam, it's their responsibility. It does not necessarily mean that the ideology they are interpreting in the most violent way possible is inherently violent. You want to argue against something? Argue against the extremists. Most muslims just want to go to work, eat, sleep, and go about their lives and be happy like everyone else. Why is that so hard to understand?
The problem with them, and you, is that one day it may happen that you will wake up to sharia law and see that it is no different from ‘multicultural diversity’. More than that, one day a Muslim may kill you for being an atheist.
Yeah, that's what I thought, you hate islam because you're afraid of muslims. So your solution is to strike first to prevent anything that muslims might one day do to you? How about we introduce a thought police that monitors everyone and locks them up before they have a chance to think about a crime they might commit towards you as well? If you want to live your life being afraid of the world, that's your choice.
But we do seem to agree on one thing, and that is that we're not going to agree on this. So I'll conclude my participation by saying this:
You don't like islam or muslims. Fine, you don't have to. You have two choices:
1. You can either keep disliking them, leave the matter at that, and go about your life worrying about more realistic things.
2.You can keep preaching about how bad islam is.
If you keep preaching about the evils of islam, two things can happen:
1. People dismiss you as a racist dimwit.
2. Someone actually takes you seriously and listens.
If you actually get someone to listen, it can only lead to more intolerance and resentment towards muslims. Intolerance, and especially discrimination of any group, will only lead to that group resenting you back, which inevitably leads to conflict.
Now what do you think will lead to a more peaceful society? Accepting that people are different and that they will have opinions that differ from yours, or promoting oppression of a group of people?
That shouldn't be too hard to answer. Now, do you really think that what the world needs is more intolerance and hatred towards others?
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I thoroughly recommend Rageeh Omar's Islam in America series on AL Jazeera. I honestly didn't know till now that the USA was such a good place for Muslims to live. Would like to make a similar film for the UK. -
The common ground for Islam, Christianity, and all religion is love.
Love is put down all selfishness, extend our love from us to family, society, nature, whole universe, etc.
No hatred at all. Smile more. -
If you wanna know more about Islam, just check one of my blog that is about Islam from a young lady point of view...
inalllanguages.blogspot.com/
I hate how someone would debate about something they have no single idea about..-
Yes i agree with u...the one who dont even know the mean of the word "ISLAM" and cant differentiate between the "Islam" and "Muslim", point finger on so many such things which they never even tried to know what does it mean....all just try to figure out what is right and what is wrong in their own way and dont want to listen and know the truth...its so fishy sometimes...
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I just don't understand something
Why should "any" religion 'market' itself?
Why not..just leave the rest of the mankind do what they like and what they want?
We in India read about something called "LOVE JIHAD" on the media recently.
It was shocking and true. Some said its another conspiracy, till media brought things out to light.
Why kill a belief or faith or a way of life which has been followed since looong time?
Err..don't tell me, "trying to save". We are all (any person no matter what the religion or belief)in the verge of extinction cuz of global warming,pollution and thingies..and I personally don't thing anyone would come down from the sky(none shown on Hubble's yet)to save us.
*ps: I really don't want to start a new thread on religion..what ever. I think I am doing something good for the BC members here that way) -
im a muslim and its been told in hadits that there will be things like this,some people who dislike this religion.even islam itself will be divided into 73 varieties.but the one who hold the truth is the islam which is rooted back to the original who love peace and kindness also respect others.
as for radicals in islam or you often said its terrorist,its their way to do the islam jihad although its totally wrong,unless if they have to do it to defend themselves and not attacking innocent people.
i have many non muslim friends but we've never come across in fighting or hating but only respecting our own choice of religion.
please do not egoistically judge all islam or muslims are the same in 'bad' way.cause from what i've learned even christian and Jew also have many varieties and not all the same,for example:catholic protestant,advent,etc.so,when i read that many countries in Europe start to put limitation for muslim,i feel really sad,to learn that the freedom and human right to choose and believe in religion has been violated just because of the nonsense and bullshit thinking of all islam and muslims are the potential terrorist/bad guy.
learn first what is inside islam for the truth than comment.and not only saying things u dont understand about.
so basicly the problem is not the religion but the people themselves.
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