Discussions
Should health insurance be elective or mandatory?
Posted by pamelabaker • 6/20/08 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: choice, Health Insurance
Should it be required like car insurance rather than it be our choice?
User Comments
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I tend to lean toward it remaining elective but would love to hear what others think...the times they are a changin'
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Why can't the richest country in the world have free universal health care?-
Bingo! -
So do you think that if we are forced by law to pay for what we may not use that the rich will get richer and we will only be more burdened?
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? are you talking about the universal health care, or mandatory health care?
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why can't you do what we do in England and have a free health service? Why is that so unamerican? For a fraction of what you spend on useless arms you could have a free health care system to rival Cuba's.
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Private enterprise Anin, private enterprise
That and trickle down capitalism run amok. -
It's corp propaganda that it's not possible, that's balls we all know it.
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Well, yeah
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There is no such thing as "free" anything.
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Mandatory and all receive basic care for free.-
Mandatory at our expense?
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Make it mandatory. Car insurance is mandatory in most states to drive... Why not health insurance? After all, what's more important?-
The problem I have with that analogy is that not everyone in the country has to have a car - thus it is not mandatory for *everyone* to have car insurance. You actually have a choice in the matter.
With health insurance you are essentially saying that - "if you are breathing, you must have insurance by law". And the reality of the problem isn't that people don't want insurance, it's that they can't afford it....
So how do you legally force people into purchasing insurance policies they cannot afford?
Unless you provide it, free of charge? -
There's an even more important distinction--if you don't have car insurance, your lack of insurance can mean that you injure someone ELSE and can't pay for it...your insurance isn't for your benefit, but for the benefit of your potential victims. -
Health care costs and insurance are out of control, partially because of our appetite for law suites. My mother's Doctor pays over $90,000 a year in malpractice insurance. He is leaving his practice at the end of this year. Those costs are past on, just like profit taxes on big oil companies.
Free government health care is not the answer. Name one program the Government runs that is efficient and well run. Just look at the Railroads, the IRS, .... -
Madam, that is exactly my point. Just like I don't want to have to pay to get my car fixed when you wreck into it, I don't want to have to pay for the smoking couch potato who has hart by pass surgery and lung cancer.
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What about billing that charges $20 per roll of T.P.?
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Nonsense. You (and millions of other people) believe that because the insurance industry has one of the most powerful lobbies and PR machines in the world. There is a statistical correlation between tort reform and a decrease in medical insurance premiums for one reason: the insurance industry is not stupid, and knows that this is precisely the data that will persuade additional states to get with the program. The numbers simply do not stack up to support the idea that insurance companies are "forced" to raise premiums because of litigation and, in fact, insurance companies often drive up the total malpractice payout themselves by settling claims against the insured physician's wishes and to his professional detriment because they have determined that a case is not worth the time and money required to fight it.
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Tiffany that's an excellent point - taht ties into teh costs Bob is talking about.
Insurance companies are also teh reason why insurance costs are going up - not just the cost of medical care.
Companies have begun running amok by stalling claims and rejected claims (valid ones) repeatedly, as well as stalling settlements for injuries.
My husband was hit by a car a year and a half ago - I just spoke to our attorney who told us that the insurance company is stalling worse than ever on the claim, and settlement.
So, our medical bills have been held up for a year and a half, My husband's health insurance is chomping at the bit for third party compensation, and quite frankly, we could have used the money a long time ago for lost wages.
Allstate insurance, in 2006 had paid out $8 million in lawsuits alone, because instead of paying their claims and policies, they were taken to court for this type of behavior. And they are getting away with it constantly. My attorney told me that insurance companies are out of control right now.
So they too, are responsible for the dramatic rise in health care costs. The more they stall, the more it costs the health care industry.
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OK mandatory sounds great. However, if someone doesn't have it, it surely probably isn't because they don't want it. So my question - who pays?-
Generally speaking - it would be a tax issue. Much like the funding of public schools, public roads etc are paid for buy taxes - so too would health insurance.
A few things would have to happen first, however. Such as reigning in the cost of medical care, taking a serious look at malpractice suits (and consequently weeding out doctors that have no business being doctors), and making the entire payment process from insurance claims to billing as seamless as possible.
Set prices - so payments come faster, more preventative care so health care costs go down, etc...
Then create the budget necessary to create health care for everyone.
Edited to add - even if your taxes were raised it'll be a heckuvalla lot less than your current insurance premium
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I would be truly frightened to be without it, but so many people are.
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I heard a rumor that in Oregon, if you have cancer that your health insurance will pay for an assisted suicide rather than treatment, for treatment you are on your own.
Has anyone else heard of this?-
Insurance companies can often times exclude certain medical procedures (although a legal ruling may be necessary) if they determine that a particular medical procedure is not a valid cost. Such as chemotherapy for a patient who isn't likely to make it very long, anyway.
They cannot however, encourage assisted suicide, because as far as I know, it isn't legal anywhere. -
It is legal in Oregon
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Wow! I had no idea about that. In case anyone is wondering what the law is:
www.oregon.gov/DHS/ph/pas/faqs.shtml
But, for the record the laws about it are very strict - and much like an insurance company opting to pay for short term hospice in a terminally ill patient, the insurance companies have opted to pay for a legal suicide in seriously terminally ill patients, ONLY.
As in, the patient must be diagnosed with six months to live or less.
In my opinion, I think that's more humane, and I'm actually kinda glad they opt to cover such a controversial procedure instead of forcing a seriously ill person to fight it off if they don't want to, or can't take it any more. -
What if the diagnosis is wrong? What if the person does not want to do this and feels pressured to do so because of the insurance?
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I don't know about the laws in Oregon, but I can say that the patient has the right to make whatever choices the patient wants to make - whether or not the insurance decides to cover that choice is a different story.
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@ Anok
I was pulling for Clinton mainly because of her universal health care plan. Imagine being a person deemed "uninsurable"?
Health care is like a conductorless freight train barreling out of control in this country in my PERSONAL opinion.-
I'm one of those uninsurables You learn to deal with it, really.
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I work with the poor in the inner city and they all have basic health care for free.
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Only if you qualify for it. If you happen to be in income limbo - you're SOL.
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I am in the middle too.
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Sorry. Hope things change soon! I mean how much more out of control can this crisis get?
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It can get much, much worse. (hate to say it, though).
I now qualify for assistance with insurance, so I have it...now. But it was years upon years upon years that I went without.
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Glad to hear that. Could happen to any of us anytime.
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I think as Americans you should be ashamed people die of preventable diseases in the "Land of the free"
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OH I am ashamed. Trust me!
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So if we have health care that we do not shop for then what options do we have if we do not agree with how it is handled?
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Honestly, most insurance companies are the same with regards to their policies, anyway.
Unless you are talking about "packages" which would in many cases fall by the wayside. I mean, all major and prevention medical procedures would be covered - probably with no deductible and no co-pay, eye, dental (No more trying to shop for individual dental plans!!), accident...
You could still of course, purchase your own life insurance which could cover loss of income death and dismemberment and all that fun stuff on top of your health policy.
Plus, it should theoretically give you more medical options. Instead of being limited by HMO's PPP's and bundled doctor packages you could actually choose your favorite doctor because *surprise!* they all take the same insurance!
I wouldn't suspect though, that it would be any different than a regular insurance with regards to going to specialists, not covering luxury type medical procedures (plastic surgery etc). They would, however, have to pay out claims when they are supposed to.
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Pitiful people are leaving the contry for heart and cancer procedures and the like because they can't afford it here!
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Some are leaving the country because they do not agree with how it is handled here especially when it comes to cancer.
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If you can afford extensive medical care with your own money, then I'm all for your right not to have it. However, it is my business if you elect not to have it and end up sticking the bill to the taxpayers.-
Aren't the tax payers going to pay for it if it becomes mandatory ?
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Why does everyone assume hat if you do not have insurance, and use a medical facility, it gets stuck to the taxpayers?
Do you guys not realize that the patient has to pay the bill, out of pocket, and if they don't that debt gets sold to a debt collection agency just like any other debt?
At no point in time does that debt get paid off by tax dollars. -
Anok, that's not entirely accurate. First, there are many programs for lower income people without insurance that are funded by taxpayers--all medicaid recipients are putting a burden on governmental revenues that would not exist if those people had private insurance. In many areas, there are also free and sliding scale clinics designed to serve people without insurance, and many of those are funded, at least in part, by tax revenues. Third, many hospitals write off some or all of a medical debt if the person demonstrates financial hardship, which may indirectly cost taxpayers when those hospitals receive government funding.
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Medicaid, however, is insurance. It is covered by taxes that people pay for regardless of who uses it. That person is not uninsured.
And, many hospitals receive public funding, but that funding does not always go towards uninsured people - that funding goes to the entire hospital.
Either way - if I am uninsured, and I go to the hospital, I get a bill. Same with the doctor's office - and a lot of people do too. -
That's true (in most cases--as I said, many hospitals forgive those bills), but it's overly simplistic. The fact that people receive bills that they may or may not ever pay has little to do with where the money ultimately comes from to cover those services.
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I can't speak for other places - but our hospitals outsource. The doctors send you a separate bill from the hospital, and ambulance (if needed) is another bill, etc... They all come from different places - and believe me you if you don't pay your bill or make arrangements - they will sell your debt. There is no forgiveness here - not even with a letter of protection!
We just got a bill from a debt collector, the hospital has already sold the bill out to them, and that bill had a letter of protection because the insurance company was refusing to pay
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Not sure how I feel about this Oregon law. I just hope I or anyone I come in contact with need to consider it!!!
I only worry about the potential for abuse. For example, an uninsured person needing expensive and or experimental procedures. -
I don't see why some people are against people having free health care, what's wrong with looking after people? What's the objection? I don't get it.
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One of the proposed plans that I read here said that the amount of care for things like cancer would be based on your potential as a person returning to the work force.
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I don't get it either. Greedy people who don't wanna pay more or are worried they will have to pay more in taxes is all I can think of.
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And yet, they fail to realize that while they may feel a marginal rise in taxes - they will be $400 a month richer because they will be free of that pesky insurance premium every month
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I find the entire system in the Staes reprehensible at this point. AGAIN, a PERSONAL opinion.
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I think that greed is a factor. That also is a personal opinion.
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choice -
@ Anok We pay $650. My republican hubby doesn't get it still. I give up on him.
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What if you had a medical account and used it when you needed it? Or do you use more than that in your expenses?
A radical idea I know, just a what if. -
Yeesh, it's simple math! The larger teh group, the lower the cost. *lol*
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@Anok: Correct me if I'm wrong, but a hospital can't let someone die, even if he can't afford emergency care.
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If you can't afford it here, they have free emergency care but what you get depends on where in our city you are.
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That's right. And once they've fixed you up - they send you a bill.
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If they fix you up rather than lying about your need.
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You aint lying, Pamela. My husband was rolled in from an ambulance, on a backboard - and not only did the hospital leave him there for TWO HOURS unchecked (on a back board, after being hit by a car) the doctor came in, spent ten minutes, felt his back left him to sit for another two hours, and came back with a misdiagnoses and some pain killers.
And that was to the tune of about $500. (not including the ambulance bill)
Turns out he had two bulging discs and a herniated disk. It's a good thing he wasn't paralyzed by the doctor's negligence. -
I stood at a hospital here and pleaded with a doctor not to send a young man who had open infections in both legs home to care for himself knowing that he belonged in a nursing home at the least.
The doctor released him anyway even though the young man had a mild mental challenge and was not in any way able to care for himself.
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I really don't want to pay for someone else's poor lifestyle habits. So, I would be O.K with it, as long as I could opt out. I haven't been to a physician in over 25 years, and neither has anyone in my family. We are all totally healthy, and better for it.
Rich-
What do you mean by opt out?
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I notice that many people keep making this "poor lifestyle choices" argument, but I can't help but notice that no one has the courage to say "I don't want to have to contribute to the medical care of a perfectly innocent person who has never done a wrong thing and was born with a serious medical condition."
So how about it, all you "I don't want to subsidize the unworthy" folks...is that limited to people who have brought on their own problems like you all keep mentioning, or are you equally unwilling to "subsidize" people with congenital heart defects, cerebral palsy and juvenile diabetes? -
Many of those things are subsidized now and I think that they should be. Will we be paying more to cover well people in case they need it rather than paying for actual need?
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You just slammed people for poor lifestyle choices - and yet you have failed to practice any kind of preventative medicine whatsoever, by choice.
Who's lifestyle choices are poor? -
@MadameX: That is a separate issue. It is perfectly legitimate to be against subsidizing smokers, heavy drinkers, people who regularly eat junk food, etc.
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Opt out is Obama's plan. If you want to participate, you can pay the dues. If you don't you opt out. Kewl with me. The reason that Hillary didn't want to go this route, is because she knows that you need healthy people to pay for those who decide that they have a right to smoke, eat Popeye's Chicken, and lie down by the T.V. belch some beer. Without the healthy people, it is going to be very expensive. But I figure, if it gets expensive enough, like what is happening with oil, people will just have to cut out the massive amount junk they eat, and get out and walk a little. Already, companies are penalizing overweight people, if they keep up their poor lifestyles. You play, you pay.
Rich -
I practice the best kind of preventative medicine, that is why I never have to see a physician. I eat well (veggies, fruits and grains, with a little bit of the other stuff), I exercise and stretch every day, and I practice deep, healthful breathing. Get plenty of sunshine, good rest, and enjoy life without pushing myself. Just moderation. If everyone did this, then over 70% of all medical problems would poof, go away. Some studies say as 85%. But if someone wants to chunk down some hots dogs with deep fried chicken, it's O.K. by me, just don't call me when you get your first sign of heart disease.
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It is now possible to record those choices with the cards we use at the places we shop. The cards at the grocery the cards that the banks use with points. So if you eat grease and get sick you should not get funded ?
What if you are blamed for a future problem because you chose to use alternative methods for your health? (Heaven forbid) -
OK, and what happens if you get cancer?
People who are "perfectly healthy" to their own eyes can and do wind up with diseases for a variety of reasons other than poor lifestyles.
Then YOU will be the burden on the system. particularly because a cancer screening once every few years is a lot cheaper then chemo. Or any other type of disease you could contract from an insect, an animal, or genetics.
Never mind freak accidents that could cause you to be paralyzed for life or wind up on life support.
You know - I have a pretty good feeling that Popeye's chicken and smoking isn't what has driven the cost of health care up nearly as much as major diseases, illnesses, (mental and physical), accidents and genetics has.
Just saying -
I think if you eat grease, you are going to be sick all the time, and you will probably want to opt into the system - and share money and hospital time with your fellow men who are also eating grease. Kewl by me. However, someone wants to live their life. We are all here to learn. I would rather just watch teh action from the sidelines.
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Hi Anok,
Personally, if I get cancer (and I won't), then I'll just have to figure out what to do. I might decide to just end the whole darn thing and start again. I don't know. Maybe I'll just find a nice place somewhere and practice some yoga. But one thing I definitely will not do, is go to the hospital. However, if someone wants the choice of going to the hospital, they are free to opt in, and everyone just pays for each others stay in the hospital. It is a pretty interesting way to make and spend money when you think about it. And the marketing is great - if you don't do it, YOU'LL DIE! What other profession has such a strong marketing message. No wonder they are rolling in the dough. -
Richrf, are you familiar with Essiac Tea?
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And that is your choice, Rich.
But it seems to me that you prefer not to opt in because you don't want to go to a hospital, and would rather not pay for something you personally, would never use.
If we followed this logic then we should also be able to opt out of any taxes and payments for things we will not use if we don't want to.
Public roads.
Public schools.
Fire Department.
Police department.
Social Security benefits.
Any multitude of governmental appointed or funded positions, groups, and organizations.
I think you get the drift.
See, here's the cool part - your taxes go up marginally - you've helped create a safer, healthier country by your contribution, and, if you ever do need medical attention, you can actually use it if you want to.
You don't have to, but the option is there for you.
I mean, what if you just need glasses? Or maybe you get diabetes, it can be managed, you won't die, but damn without insulin it's not going to be a very nice ride.
What if your kid's need surgery? Or you need a dentist? -
Hey Anok,
No, I don't want to pay for other people's lifestyle choices that has wrecked their health. School and roads don't wreck anyone's health (well they do, but that is another discussion).
Heck, I've been without health insurance for about 25 years. I figure I've probably saved about $100,000. Now on that $100,000, I've probably made about $25,000 in interest. If something happens to me, I rather leave the money to you, then give it to some guy in the hospital. But you got promise to use it for a quiet vacation in some nearby mountain getaway, where there is clean air and plenty of fresh veggies.
BTW, there are lots of alternatives to the kind of diseases that you are concerned about, but none of these require pharmaceuticals or physicians, so of course you will never be told about them. You know, you got to keep the customer coming back. It is called good business.
I am not sure you know it, but hospitals are the third leading cause of death in the U.S., after traffic accidents and, I think it was, heart disease (maybe it was cigarettes). About 200,000 people die each year in hospitals from incorrect treatment. Now, don't you think I have better ways to use my money?
Rich -
OK Rich.
But, one last word, if everyone had proper health care -and proper preventative care - there would be a lot less unhealthy people out there - regardless of lifestyle choices. Plus, it wouldn't cost you nearly that much, anyway -
I agree. If anyone took care of themselves, then health care costs in this country would plummet. We spend about $8000/year per person in the U.S. In Japan they spend half, and with a longer life expectancy. In Cuba, they spend only about $600 and their life expectancy is only about a year or two shorter (they probably don't spend as much time in a hospital bed, with tubes up the gazook).
So, yes, first comes good lifestyle habits - and then comes the rest.
Rich
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I do not know if this comment will be well received or not. In Canada those who make an income lower below the poverty line do not pay health care premiums at all. Those who make in excess of that pay on a sliding scale in accord with income. None of the premiums we pay here are anywhere near the cost of the private health care premiums that my cousins pay in America. I cheerfully pay for those who cannot pay for themselves. In American it seems that some of you think that the poor and sick deserve no compassion or assistance at all.
Edit: MadameX - I do believe you have flushed the covey.-
Here here TT!
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Your comment is well received TT.
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My company actually has a similar system, TimeThief, and I'm all for it. I pay substantially more for the same insurance coverage than our secretaries and customer service people and such do, and I'm delighted that it works that way.
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Surely if my country with a tiny population compared to yours could come up with an equitable system of providing universal access to health care for all who are needy and sick, then your country can do this too.
Granted there are problems with any system like Canada's and like the UK's but at least we have them. I'm astonished by the kind of excuses I hear for not supporting a universal health care system in America. For pity sake "excuses" are not "reasons". The two are quite different and I've yet to here a single "reason" that can stand the test of close scrutiny.
Have you not recognized that the only means of check and balance to prevent price gouging that you could ever have with regard to the fees and charges charged by private health care providers and private hospitals is such government administered universal health care system?
Can you really be that different form my countrymen? Do you actually believe a free booting capitalist system is the best way to provide for your health needs and for the health of generations to come? -
Actually, TT, I would submit that our size is one of the key reasons that we HAVEN'T been able to do so. The other is greed--I don't know many Canadians, but based on the people I know in various other countries around the world I suspect that Americans are the most selfish and self-centered creatures on earth, possibly by a factor of several hundred.
However, a lot of things that are "broken" in the U.S. are, IMO, difficult or impossible to fix because the United States is simply too large and too economically, culturally and even geographically disparate to lend itself to blanket solutions. As a loose association of sovereign bodies (you know--that thing we were created to be), size is a potential advantage. As one legal/political entity, it's purely unworkable. -
@Tiffany,
re: www.blogcatalog.com/discuss/entry/should-health-insurance-be-elective-or-ma...
I'm really happy to hear that we share the same attitude.
re: www.blogcatalog.com/discuss/entry/should-health-insurance-be-elective-or-ma...
I'm truly astonished at the differences in attitudes between Canadians and Americans on some things. Here the federal government and provinces are responsible for providing for the health, safety and security of the citizens. And, due to corruption (greed) and bungling many things are broken too. But I cannot foresee a situation where a majority of Canadians would vote "no" to health care. In fact, I think the mere suggestion of doing away with it would be like waving a red flag before a bull.
Leaving this thread to bathe now. -
Do you think this selfishness is to do with the "pioneering spirit"?
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No. In fact, I think that whatever pioneering spirit we might once have had is dead or dying at least in part due to the unwillingness to make any kind of sacrifice. I think, in part, it is because life is just too damned easy here.
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Well yeah I think you might be right our NHS was built from the ruins of the second world war, you didn't experience the same devastation as we did.
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I agree with Tiffany. Creature comforts will make people do the strangest things - and become very selfish
I also think that there has been a materialistic drive that has been beaten into Americans - bigger, better, faster - be better than the Joneses! We want to be the biggest, the bestest, the richest - even to our own detriment. -
We have had the same sort of pressures since the 80's and the disaster of Thatcherism, It's the greed is good mentality that has led us into the mire we are all trying to escape from now.
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Time thief : are you a canadian citizen?
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Sounds good Timethief and GREAT of you to feel that way.
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Has anyone heard that there is a state on the East coast that has passed a law that people must carry at personal expense medical coverage or face prosecution? I hope this is wrong information.
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It's almost right.
They must have insurance, but closer to universal insurance those who cannot pay, don't. The rest pay on a sliding scale - and they also have a choice with whom they can be insured. -
@ Anok, Thanks I am relieved to hear it.
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Some states don't require car insurance,and for the healthcare it should be your choice some people living on a fixed income cant afford it.
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Do you think that some treatments are ever given because they are covered rather than needed as an ambitious business practice?
This could drive up costs as well.-
Well, we know for sure that this has happened en masse in the Medicare system, so it's hard to think why it wouldn't in another similar system.
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I don't know if this is true every where, but I see more and more people on a long list of maintenance medications. I had a friend that was reduced from an active happy person to not being able to get off her couch in less than 30 days. I looked up her meds and found that she was having toxic reactions. She took the print out I gave her to her doctor and went to another who took her off most of what she was taking and she returned to an active person in about two weeks.
Do you see this where you are? -
I took my stepdaughter off of Zyprexa without medical assistance or approval when she was 13. She was having terrible side effects, including having gained 30 pounds (they now know that one of the side effects is that it can cause diabetes) and her mental processes were slowed to the point that she couldn't carry on a conversation at a normal pace. She kept telling the doctors that everything seemed like it was moving too fast, and they kept repeating that back as racing thoughts, despite the fact that I told them repeatedly that she was trying to describe something almost precisely opposite racing thoughts...that the world was moving much faster than her thoughts could. After the third fruitless discussion, I did some research and took her off of it myself. Almost immediately, she became more active and interactive and stopped complaining of things moving too fast. She was very much a different person--she socialized more, participated in the family more, improved in school, developed some extracurricular interests, and dropped back down to her normal weight very quickly. The only response I ever got from the doctor was that it had been dangerous for me to make that decision without medical advice and I shouldn't ever take something like that on myself again.
Of course, good news for them...I intervened before her side effects were serious enough or long-term enough that she might have been one of the thousands of people suing over them... -
Thank goodness you did your research!! Thank goodness that you are an involved parent. It is wonderful that you 'hear' your daughter.
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Kids are seriously over medicated - and to a great detriment
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It is true, many allergies are being treated as other disorders.
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It's crazy to have kids on such medication, I think the pharmaceutical industry is one of the biggest problems of the modern world they seem to be running amok with the deeply corrupt FDA.
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everything is corrupt to those who cant accept facts
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Every day I read about something new. Falsified studies. Information suppressed. Doctors bought off. And the FDA fully complicit, since they read the same stuff that I do. It is a remarkable fantasy world that we live in. Yet, we pretend, because we believe have nothing to replace it with - so people have faith in it. Fascinating drama to observe.
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I have friends who will believe anything that comes from a doctor. They are against doing any research on their own even if they are getting worse in the doctor's care.
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I was the same way until I was thirty. After that, I just took matters into my own hands, and never looked back. I have no idea what those doctors are doing, and I don't care to find out. I think it is just plain weird.
Rich -
I take their advice into consideration
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Consideration I can understand but not as if they are infallible.
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What if the fact is that things are corrupt?
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Do you want the government managing your health care? I certainly don't.-
Well if honest people start it and corrupt people rise later to run it; who do you call then if there is a problem?
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Socialized Medicine is a nightmare people. Doesn't anyone read anymore?
www.angelfire.com/pa/sergeman/issues/healthcare/socialized.html-
Yeah you're right all the way Don, if I have a major illness my right to free health care is stupid and it shouldn't be allowed, it's damn right communist to expect health care if you don't have the god given dollars to pay for it. Why should poor people be allowed the right to life? I'm with you let's leave them to their tumours and cancers.
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The U.S. is ranked 40th in life expectancy in the world. We spend about twice what other countries spend (with government sponsored medicine) in medical care (about 16% of the U.S. GNP). I am afraid you are already living the nightmare. Of course, the medical profession doesn't want to cut off its gravy train, but frankly, we, as a country, can no longer afford this kind of "medicine".
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Uh...Anyone care to look at the articles linked on that page I posted? Just asking...
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I live in the "socialist" hell hole of Britain and yes our health service is in a poor state but that is because of right wing governments injecting profit motives into a working system to try to cripple it and show us the need for American style health insurance.
It's not an inherent fault in the system it's a fault in the political system. -
@Don Yes, and even now people who figure that the bill is paid do not read the bills submitted for payment and do not question testing as being necessary.
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aningeniousname,
The English Health care system was something like 50 million pounds over budget within the first year of operation. The "tragedy of the commons" always applies. The cost of American healthcare has increased far above inflation rates as it has become more socialized. While relatively unregulated high tech industries keep producing better products for cheaper prices in a competitive environment, highly regulated and subsidized industries like medicine and education continue to cost more and more for less and less. Just the truth. -
Wellll ... I don't think it is socialization that is causing the problem. I think it is more likely the fact that our population is growing more and more obese. 30% of our population is considered officially obese (and that is by the McDonald's metric system), the same amount again are considered fat, and our kids make the Pillsbury Doughboy look svelte.
BTW, why I am here, I would like to encourage everyone to get up and take a stretch.
Rich -
DonLewis, do you have any data to suggest that the rise in the cost of health care is caused by (or even correlates with) medicine "becoming more socialized"? It seems to me that the clear correlation in terms of time (and logical nexus) is the increasing control of medical costs and medical decisions by insurance companies. In fact, it's very disingenuous to pretend that medical care costs have been "driven up" when major insurance companies pay a tiny fraction of the price an uninsured patient pays for the same service. It's hard to see how we can call it "more socialized" when an unemployed person pays $800 for a service that costs Blue Cross $185.
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Madame X,
If you could create an Insurance company that would charge its customers less and thereby gain all those customers dissatisfied with the high costs charged by other insurance companies, don't you think they would? I would. If I could. But I can't.
After all, as I pointed out before, computer companies are always lowering their costs for better products so as to increase their market share. That's competition.
But neither you nor I would be allowed to create such an insurance firm. The Insurance Industry is so regulated by Government as to make it nearly impossible to create a new one that could be truly competitive. Much of that regulation is to the benefit of the existing insurance firms and was placed there by legislators to limit competition. Just another example of a type of socialization, government-industry monopolies. (As an example, the laws which do not allow insurance to follow a customer when they move across State lines.)
But this is only one factor in health care costs rising higher than the cost of living year after year. Just a few of the others:
Medical Schools limiting enrollment to control the number of Doctors
Increased Medical regulations that require even small doctor offices to keep on employees just to handle the paper work.
Litigation costs unlike any other industry.
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I know a lady who took her 97yr. old mom to the hospital as shew was starting to have some problems.When they found that the mom was not on any medicines and had just been healthy they were not only surprised but almost angry.
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Happens to me all of the time. The people I know, don't give a heck about the fact that I am healthy, nor do they care how I keep healthy. They get mad as heck though that I don't go to the hospital on the first sign of a nose run. Bewildering. But that's their life's journey, and who am I to question.
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I haven't been for anything since '93 and If I had known about colliodial silver,I could have skipped that too.
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Let's see ... last time I went to a doctor was in something like 1980.
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I'm chiming in late on this ...
Like some of you, I haven't had "health" insurance (it's actually medical-cost insurance) for many years, by choice. When I've seen a doctor or dentist, I've paid my own way. It's actually been about six years since I've seen a doctor - again by choice - although I do see a dentist regularly. I consider my life a lot more simplified, sane, and healthy because I avoid the medical system as much as possible.
But that's just my lifestyle. Just because I choose to stay out of the AMA's clutches doesn't mean I think everyone has to follow me. I want to see a reformed health care system in the US with a single-payer foundation, like in Canada and the U.K. But mandatory coverage - that gives me the willies. For one thing, I think it's a major distraction to keep us from doing the hard work, and building the political will, to shift over to universal and single-payer health care. For another, I think mandatory coverage is just another scheme to give more $$$ to the insurance companies.
Another thing - I don't think provision of care should be contingent on lifestyle. Good grief - who am I to judge someone's habits? I'm sure not perfect. And imagine what kind of a bureaucracy that would create, to decide who gets health coverage based on whether or not they ate at McDonald's at some point in their life....
Now that you've got some of my food for thought, I'm turning in. It's way late here.-
Jan, do you have a plan for catastrophic illness? The big concern that always springs to my mind when I hear someone talk about paying as they go is that it only works if nothing terrible happens. My mother had heart surgery a couple of years ago, for instance, and the bill was right around $100,000.
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Well, I pray a lot. I use alternative healing modalities to maintain my health; in truth, I feel far better now that I did in my twenties and thirties. As for worrying about some lurking condition that might zap me - I don't. I choose not to live with that level of fear.
Therein lies one problem I have with mainstream medicine - it's based on fear. Those "awareness" type of messages about this or that condition tend to make us afraid of our own bodies, as well as dependent on the "doctor-gods" and big pharma to save us. I know there is usually a positive motive behind these messages, but do they work? Apparently not - look at the rising levels of obesity, diabetes, heart disease, etc. despite all of the efforts to educate the public regarding lifestyle and health. Does anybody here NOT know that poor diet can lead to these diseases?
My point regarding health insurance, however, is that I support universal coverage and single payer, and I am willing to contribute through taxes for it. I'm not going to get upset because someone who ate a cheeseburger might need a few cents of my tax money to cover a heart operation. But I don't want to be forced to purchase "health" insurance when I'm so totally at odds with a medical system that doesn't begin to address my needs, and when the concept of mandatory insurance at this time is just an add-on that won't fix anything but will reward the insurance companies.
Actually, hmmm, if we weren't pay for the Bush boondoggle in Iraq, and we used that money for health care, I think we'd be able to afford a single-payer system that would be the envy of the world.
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Few things to think about. First, I would like to say is that everyone in the U.S. should have medical care. I am uncovered but that's besides the point. My oldest child was born with seizures. I did everything as a mother I could do vitamins, heathy diet bed rest as the doctors ordered. My child no longer has this problem he grew out of seizure luckily. That doesn't mean it will never happen again. If we make too much money he is taken off of a medical card. We will need insurance which if we want a home for our family will be tough to juggle. If seizures happen again I don't know how we will be able to pay for a nueroligist of worst case senario brain surgery. People who worked endlessly during 9/11 are having health problems that they can't fund. Doctor's appointments, medications $80.00 per perscription. If you have preexising conditions you can't get coverage. -
I have a real problem being required to buy something that someone else is making a profit off of. That's what we have with auto insurance and that's what some have been proposing with health insurance.
Insurance should be not-for-profit. You take out the middle-man and costs will go down.
Also, no one should die because they can't afford treatment. Some kind of government insurance should cover all catastrophic illnesses.-
I'm with you, Sati, on all points.
I had a dear friend who passed away on New Year's Eve. She laid down to take a nap, and never came back. She had serious health conditions, including heart disease, diabetes, sleep apnea, and kidney failure. She was facing dialysis and really did not look forward to that.
My friend was one of these people some of you wouldn't want to pay for because she was overweight. Well, with her health challenges, how could she exercise? She also had an old ankle fracture that made walking painful.
In any case, she was extremely stressed about the cost of her "health" insurance and prescriptions. She was paying something like $2000 per month in co-pays and prescriptions, and had reached that "donut hole" in her coverage, so her prescriptions would be even more expensive. She used to say, half-jokingly, "I'm either going to have to get well, or I'm going to have to die."
I think at some level she realized that she was not going to get well, and so she chose to die; her passing also relieved her of the necessity to undergo the dreaded dialysis. I miss her a great deal, but I'm relieved she's no longer suffering. This is an example of someone who died because they couldn't afford "health" care.
Note - I keep putting "health" in quotes because I don't believe mainstream medicine is that good for one's health. It certainly can't cure or reverse illnesses such as the ones my friend had; it just keeps you in a holding pattern, at best.
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The thing is, people are already being asked to pay more based upon lifestyles (cigarette smoking, weight), where they live (the kind of air we breathe has a big impact on health), etc. I have no problem at all with a person who indulges on Big Macs, to pay more for his medical expenses. We sow our own seeds - so pay for it. I'm not here on this earth to enrich the pharma, the AMA, or pay for indulgences. What money I do have, will go to some more worthy cause like helping a refugee.
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When we impose too many rules, too many "have to's" or too any regulations or requirements, we risk losing our choice. Every one who wishes to have health care, should work and pay for it himself. If someone cannot afford health care, he or she should not be required "by law" to have it. Health care is not denied to people in the US if they do not have health insurance. They are however required to pay for the cost of their service out of pocket. That is fine with me.
What I am uncomfortable with and terribly frustrated about is the cost of health care. I blame the HMO's and the whole managed care fiasco for that, not the doctors or the hospitals. With so much bureaucracy, a middleman and a middleman for the middleman no wonder we are all paying an outrageous amount of money for health care. If our government poorly manages our tax dollars as it is, I have no faith that it will manage my health care cost any better. So, instead of creating more regulations, I would like to see more options and allow the free market system and competition take a crack at it and maybe just maybe we might see some real change or reform. -
I sincerely hope that in the near future we will have some form of universal health care, or at least health insurance that is affordable. It is impossible for many people in this country who are working full-time to afford health insurance in our current system.
That said, I have serious concerns about mandatory health coverage. Even if a system is developed that is affordable for everyone at its inception, unless there are stringent limits placed on insurance companies, there is a good chance that costs will rise in the future to levels unaffordable for many hard-working Americans. I hope this issue can be addressed without making the purchase of health coverage "mandatory" for anyone.
Unfortunately, in a free market economy, if health care is mandatory, I believe the insurance companies will still profit at the expense of hard-working citizens. -
I believe it should be mandatory and at the same price for everyone. In a universal system, the US government would be come the insurer, hospitals and providers to remain private.
Problems with the system now: Insurance companies deny coverage and payouts all the time.
With DNA advances predicting your odds of getting sick, insurance companies will become even worse when it comes to coverage leaving more people without health care. -
I live in the UK. The NHS has its faults (I work within the NHS .. that's my waiver!). But I'd so much rather have it than not have it. I can't imagine a system existing where treatment is based on ability to pay. Maybe that's because I've grown up with and in a system of universal health care based on need. Reading this thread just makes me so much more grateful for the system we have. -
"Socialized Medicine" is primarily an ideology championed by the Democrats. However, contrary to popular belief, a nationalized health care system has never actually been on the agenda for President Elect Obama. His agenda has always been to assist those who are rendered uninsurable and or are in need of assistance in obtaining health care coverage due to low income.
Part of his plan is to expand the role of SCHIP and State Insurance Risk Pools so that those who are rendered "uninsurable" on the individual major medical market have guaranteed insurability through their respective State Risk Pools. Many states already have this option. However states such as Arizona and Florida do not. These states desperately need such Risk Pools. Unfortunately, until now they have not been able to receive enough Federal funding to expand this much needed role. States that do have risk pools are listed here: www.naschip.org/states_pools.htm
President Elect Obama wishes to provide more Federal funding to these existing risk pools to drive the premiums down, thereby making this option more affordable for those rendered uninsurable.
One of the reasons that a "nationalized" health care system has never been on Obama's agenda is most likely due to the terrible failure of such programs in countries such as France & Canada. A common example used to further the cause of "socialized medicine" in the United States is to point out how well it is working in Canada. However, those living in Canada know full well that their government run health care program is most certainly not working.
As a matter of fact, many Canadian citizens choose to hire high priced brokers to find them quality health care right here in the United States because of the terrible bureaucracy that controls all forms of health care in Canada. For more about what is really going on with the Canadian health care system please watch these short but very informative documentary videos:
www.freemarketcure.com/brainsurgery.php
www.freemarketcure.com/twowomen.php
www.freemarketcure.com/thelemon.php
The number of actual uninsured's in the US has been grossly inflated as well. For the real numbers watch: www.freemarketcure.com/uninsuredinamerica.php
The truth of the matter is we already have an enormous amount of entitlement programs available to those who find themselves unable to pay for their health care. Often times these entitlement programs are offered to those who are here legally and illegally as was the case in the State of Illinois: www.sbisvcs.com/healthinsuranceblog.htm
Most recently, the State of Hawaii tried to emulate the Medicaid Expansion programs that were enacted in Illinois. It took less than 7 months to render their program bankrupt: www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D93SBEUG0&show_article=1
All things considered, the best way to offset the high cost of health care in the US is to adopt the initiatives set forth over a decade ago by Senator Bill Archer (R) of Texas. The Health Savings Account (commonly referred to as a "Medical IRA") is a unique option that maintains high quality health insurance coverage for the policy holder whilst also building a tax deductible, tax deferred interest bearing account for the insured to use for future medical expenses. Even if these expenses would not normally be covered by the policy holder's health insurance plan. For more about the "intelligent health insurance choice" (HSA qualified HDHP's) please click here: www.sbisvcs.com/HSA%20&%20HDHP.html-
Yeah free market cure doesn't look like it has ties to any organization. I am going to go choke myself now.
Obama hasn't promised to nationalize medicine because people would freak out. Eventually it has to happen. Our system is so broke and crooked it isn't even right. The free market should not dictate health care. Health care isn't a product and shouldn't be treated as such.
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If I had to discriminate, certain things should be taken care of in a general manner for everyone because they are communicable diseases. Deciding not to treat someone with a readily communicable disease is not a good idea. -
I I like Health, nice to meet you all ^^
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