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I have believed for a very long time that prostitution should be legalized. I have also been reading arguments against legalization. Are you aware of this? www.rapereliefshelter.bc.ca/issues/prostitution_legalizing.html

IMHO the oldest profession is oppression. When women and children are chattels belonging to the rich and powerful, who are predominantly men, they are frequently forced into the sex trade and this has been going on since time immemorial. Those who benefit most aren't the "johns" they are the pimps and brothel/massage parlour/escort services owners and managers. For as long as our societies refuse to actualize when it comes to equal rights this will continue.

Some think "we've come a long way, baby". I don't agree. Today we still find that the majority of sex trade workers are people with serious problems like addiction, alcoholism, homelessness and a plethora of personality and psychological disorders. Many are young women and men who have been sexually abused by family members and/or guardians and/or authority figures. The self-righteous ignore these realities and/or look away from those who need help to get into treatment, to re-establish their health, to build some self esteem and to obtain employment training skills.

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8/25/08

dlowe

Some of those arguments against are really weak.

I think prostitution should be legalized and prostitutes should unionize.
8/25/08

melindaville

@TT. I hadn't seen that exact list before but I have heard most of those arguments against legalizing it. I disgree completley with some and I think they raise valid points in others.

My underlying position is that prostitution is not a good thing--but it is something that is going to happen in our (and every) society anyway. What I believe is that it should be legalized and heavily taxed and with that revenue, start social programs that are designed to truly help women get out of the business. Programs that would include free drug treatment, job skills and life training, parenting classes, etc. As it is now, if a woman is arrested, she usually spends one night in jail and is released. If she is arrested multiple times, she may spend a few months or up to a year in jail, where no real efforts toward rehabilitation are made. Therefore, nothing changes in our society or for the women in the profession.

I believe you have to address the underlying root of the problem--and I think it would be easier to do it if it were regulated, taxed, and that the money was used to provide the social programs I mentioned above.
8/25/08

TheBigRuski

...and be allowed to have a separate room at Starbucks...new promo...coffee and a quickee!
8/25/08

dlowe

"start social programs that are designed to truly help women get out of the business"

What if the women want to be in that business?
8/25/08

melindaville

Amen@TT--I applaud you for what you wrote in the update to your post.
8/25/08

timethief

@mtyler77 & dlowe
I agree that some arguments at the link I provided are weak and some are strong.

In our "youth obsessed" and "celebrity worshiping" society in North America today what do we see? We see the sexualization of children. They are mere objects. thistimethisspace.com/2007/06/27/sexualizing-young-girls/

P.S. I'm having a bad vision day and will be forced to stop and post until my vision clears, and then edit to add more. I'm sorry but this is my reality.
8/25/08

timethief

@mtyler77
The dynamic working against legalization of prostitution and, in fact, working against insuring that *ALL* women have equality when it comes to civil rights in our society is, believe it or not, those who are actively working to limit women's rights. Yup, we have some dinosaurs clutching bibles and working behind the scenes to derail any progress that can be made to create actual equality.

What else can we conclude when we find that the pro-life movement supports:
Bush’s actions to
(1) redefine contraception as abortion
(2) strip a pregnant woman of her civil rights;
(3) grant civil rights to her fetus; and
(4) compel her to deliver it either at full term or prematurely; and
(5) allow it to be adopted.

When combined with the concept of redefining contraception as abortion, we can readily see that pro-life advocates claim to uphold democratic principles when, in fact, they appear to be part of a committed campaign to establish government control over women’s medical and reproductive decisions by way of dirty politics.

They give some lip service to natural family planning. They support receiving government funding for "abstinence" programs but they are firmly against any birth control methods that separate sperm from egg. When it comes to adoption they have a record of committing their funding to "abstinence" and their talk to adoption. thistimethisspace.com/2008/08/22/abortion-contraception-bush-and-dirty-poli...

Given these realities and the ones I cited above the issue of legalizing prostitution is a complex one for sure.
8/25/08

melindaville

@TT--that was a *great* article--and thank you for passing it along--I also wrote you a comment on your blog about it.

I am sorry you are experiencing headaches and having difficulty--but please do not apologize. Take care of yourself! That's most important here! Much more important than reading posts/blogs.
8/25/08

dlowe

"In our "youth obsessed" and "celebrity worshiping" society in North America today what do we see? We see the sexualization of children. They are mere objects."

I think that is off-topic but I totally agree. It is one of the reasons I got into youth ministry. It is sad when children don't have a childhood anymore.
8/25/08

melindaville

It's a very complex issue--when I was writing that experience in my book yesterday, I was (again) filled with rage at what happened to me that night. It made me again think about all the women who are still in that profession, who every day experience the kind of abuse in my story.

What happened to me in my blog post (and in my book) is only 1 such experience I had--one of the scariest by far--but I have had many bad experiences in the profession (as have all women in the profession). It made me again question our society's moral vs. humanitarian stance of the issue.
8/25/08

timethief

@dlowe
I believe the sexualization of children is relevant. The vast majority of sex trade workers commence work as abused and neglected children. The "homes" they escape from are full of drug and alcohol abuse as well as poverty and violence.

The environment they are raised in worships young flesh and young flesh is seen everywhere these days (low ass pants, spaghetti strap tops on per-teen school girls, halters and muffin tops on highschool girls, etc.). Add to that the presumed role models like Britney Spears and and Paris Hilton in movie land and what have you got?

It's not only the kids who keep those kind of "role models" at the top. They get lots of help from adult males (fathers of children) who like to drool over masturbatory material while fantasizing having sex with "young flesh". That's not to mention their "moms" who are striving to look younger than their age to keep their men happy.

8/25/08

deineshd

Since I am a person from Nepal and from here many womens are losing life due to this.

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8/25/08

dlowe

Actually he changed the comment.
They are losing their lives because prostitution is legal?
8/25/08

TheBigRuski

^ probably in the wrong place.
8/25/08

timethief
8/25/08

timethief

@deineshd
That's truly sad. I assume they have no job skills and no other way to make a living so they become victims. Everywhere around the world we see that woman are "collateral damage". When it comes to satisfying the insatiable male need for sex, sex, sex prostitutes are like Kleenexes a man can blow into and then crumple up and toss away or even kill, while the self-righteous in mainstream society point the finger at the victims, rather than at their victimizers.

8/25/08

deineshd

I think it should not be because after that women will be thought as the matter only for having sex.

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8/25/08

melindaville

Don't you think that women who engage in illegal prostitution are only thought of for having sex anyway? Because it is illegal, there is no regulation and women can be terribly abused.

For the record, I am not *for* prostitution--as I said in my blog entry (as the result of my terrible experience with it), I believe women need to be protected. No one should go through what I did on that terrible night that I wrote about. It was one of the most traumatic experiences I have ever had.

As it stands now, they are not protected and they are still sexualized.
8/25/08

dlowe

LOL!!! That's funny.
Now its in the right place.

8/25/08

MadameX

Melinda,I haven't had a chance to read your post yet (I definitely will), but my sticking point on this issue has always been the commitment of limited government resources. A lot of people suggest that prostitution should be legal and regulated to address these issues, and I understand the argument, but regulation doesn't happen by magic or for free,and with so many pressing issues already going unaddressed, creating a safe, profitable environment for the sex trade seems like a fairly low priority to me. Even as I write that it's a little gray and fuzzy, because the safety of the women involved in that industry (voluntarily or not) is NOT a low priority, but the idea of sending out government employees to inspect brothels with our tax dollars while schools are using 40-year-old books and children are dying from preventable illnesses and a lot of people don't have food just seems misplaced to me.

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8/25/08

melindaville

I understand your concerns, MadameX--they are without a doubt, valid ones. My stance is that prostitution should be heavily taxed and that with this revenue, we would not only pay for the regulation of brothels and escort services (and I do think they should be limited to certain areas--not "everywhere") but that we should also use this money that will truly work to rehabilitate women. I don't believe any woman should be a prostitute. My own experiences with the profession made me feel ashamed and degraded--but my premise is that there is no real help for women in this profession. Indeed, they are the lost of our society--they have no voice, no options. I would like to see real programs to help women who feel they have no options. 1) therapy for sexual abuse (nearly all prostitutes were sexually abused as children) 2) free drug treatment 3) job skills training so they will have other options 4) life skills training (when you grow up abused, you don't know how to deal with life--I didn't) 5) parenting classes (if applicable).

Prostitution is a terrible option--but we need realistic better ones to replace it or women will continue to feel it's their only choice.
8/25/08

pointlessbanter

While they don't have the time or money to regulate it they also really don't enforce it. So you have so many people that are trafficked into the country and other things around it. I actually wrote a paper last year for school about how hookers are using web 2.0 technology and the internet to promote themselves. They have a better understanding of it than most businesses.

8/25/08

CreativeJunkie

I haven't read the comments posted here. I wanted to post first before I saw everyone else's opinions.

Moral/ethical issue aside, I do think prostitution should be legalized. I think it should be regulated and run as a legal business.

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8/25/08

melindaville

I know what you mean CJ! I always like to post my thoughts first so I am not influenced by others I read!

8/25/08

DaneMorgan

Perhaps simply decriminalized. Prohibition causes human suffering every time it is tried.

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8/25/08

timethief

@DaneMorgan
Decriminalization as opposed to prohibition.
That's an excellent point. Thanks for making it.
8/25/08

melindaville

Well, decriminalizing it would not create any kind of programs to help women find other options. You see, my idea would be that with the heavy tax, social programs could be started, which would help women really change the direction of their lives.

I don't believe the majority of women in the sex industry want to be doing what they are--only a very few would fall into that category. I think most others feel trapped into it and therefore, need programs to help them out of it.

Although decriminalizing it might help women feel more empowered to report monsters like the man who abuse me the night I wrote about in my post.
8/25/08

timethief

I'm not convinced that decriminalization combined with programming that may be partly drawn form tax dollars isn't the way to go. However, I do admit that America is *NOT* Canada. Any type of social program that's proposed down south may immediately provoke the ignorant to screech "commie". The second protest seems usually to be one based on money. The third will be religion. It seems self-interest and pursuit of the American dream combined with religious zealotry have created and continue to sustain a dog-eat-dog society.
8/25/08

melindaville

Wrong spot
8/25/08

DaneMorgan

The reason I say decriminalize is because it is the first step stone on a path.

1. It IS a fact that MOST (not all, but the VAST MOST) of women in the trade have SERIOUS problems, mental, emotional and or addiction problems. They are for the most part marginalized, and the more successful they become in the trade, the more marginalized they seem to become in their selves. Not a shrink, I have no idea whether that is causal or correlative, and don't know if there is any way currently to demonstrate one or the other.

2. So long as the trade is prohibited, we conspire in that marginalization. We contribute to the circumstances that seem to magnify that inner marginalization by forcing the one entity that is created originally for the sole purpose of safeguarding and put it in an adversarial role. This certainly can not help someone who is already internally marginalized, because it says, we agree. We won't even help you when you are subjected to abuses of your person and rights, because you do this thing.

3. No one should fear reporting abuse to those charged with protecting them from it because they themselves participate in a nonviolent, non fraudulent activity.

4. Full legalization, on the obverse would tend to suggest that we are validating this as an -- acceptable is not the word I want, but I'm not finding another -- practice. I don't think we want to take actions that would make something like this seem like any other life path, because the fact is that it is not. Obviously we all make choices, and those choices will of necessity restrict other choices, but this is a choice that so dramatically restricts so many basic potential choices.

5. Even legalized or decriminalized, this will always be a DANGEROUS profession. It is nearly always going to be practiced separately, away from others. Yes brothels offer a degree of protection, but some will not want to go to brothels (some for "legitimate", meaning non violent, non fraudulent, reasons) and on this truth the predators will hunt.

So, decriminalization. Giving these women the access to the basic protections and freedoms that we should all enjoy, is the best thing that can happen *right now*. Only after that can we really begin to look at the situation in a realistic light of what can or should be done further to improve the lot of these women, whether that means getting them out of it (only to be replaced?) or making being in no less onerous than being in any other profession.

8/25/08

@mtyler77
Here's another reference. It's an American one: Legalized Prostitution Regulating the Oldest Profession www.liberator.net/articles/prostitution.html

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8/25/08

melindaville

TT--another excellent article, with which I agree with almost all the points that Mark "Liberator" makes.

One observation that I have--I worked in the very highest level of the profession when I first started working in the business but over time (as my addiction became worsened), I ended up at the lowest level of the three tiers. This is true for many women who first start working as prostitutes--they start out making excellent money but due to their self-destructive tendencies, they end up in the direst of conditions (in my experience, I would say that 95% of women in ANY level of the business use drugs).

I really believe that women need other options other than prostitution--and what this means is treating the underlying causes of what forces women into that profession. This is also my stance with addiction--people don't need jail, they need truly comprehensive treatment. If prostitution were regulated and taxed, then we could better protect the women in that profession as well as take measures toward true rehabilitation.

Melinda
8/25/08

timethief

@mtyler77
I'm with you on every point you make. I don't believe that sex trade workers should be written off as "collateral damage". And, I don't believe jailing them makes any sense whatsoever. Jails are training schools for criminals.

What makes sense is a citizenry and a government that recognizes that prostitution is not going to disappear and that the people at the top of that pyramid (pimps, etc.) are unregulated business people. Both citizens and the government that's intended to serve them rather than to dictate to them need to recognize that the wise thing to do is two fold. The people at the top of this industry need to be regulated and taxed. The lost citizens (sex trade workers) need to be healed of all that ails them and equipped them with employment skills so they can make an income and contribute taxes. However, I don't see a whole lot of progress being made. Do you? What I witness is retrogression. The more "scary" things get the more people separate into small wagon circling "us" and "them" groups.
8/25/08

melindaville

@TT--I readily agree--there is no progress being made--and in fact, we have taken steps backward with the "faith based initiatives" of this administration. This is one of the biggest reasons why I am finally going vocal with my story. I want people to see what can happen when you can effectively rehabilitate someone who was once considered absolutely hopeless.

Many arguments I have heard (against treatment and social programs to help the weakest of citizens) is that there is no point in doing so--because those involved in those areas of life are hopeless. Some say it is even natural selection. I had a doctor tell me once that my life wasn't worth saving (I had a terrible abscess and nearly lost my hand). After I had got clean from drugs and had earned my doctorate, I went and paid him a visit. I told him I guess my life was worth saving after all--and there are many women like me--who deserve a second chance at life. These women--and the drug addicts have no champions. I will be their champion.
8/25/08

timethief

I admire you for having the guts to do this. You can count on my support.
8/25/08

MadameX

Melinda, can you elaborate on how "faith based initiatives" have been a step backward in this regard? I definitely don't want to detour this discussion into a religious debate, but I'm confused because the remainder of your comment relates to the attitude many people harbor that some people are "hopeless" or "not worth saving". It would seem to me that any initiative that began with the precept that every human life is valuable would be a step TOWARD the kind of thinking you're looking for.
8/25/08

melindaville

@TT--thank you. I have the support of my husband, my family, and close friends. I might lose my job but I know I am doing what I need to do. I really do feel compelled to finally tell my story. I believe it will help many people.
8/25/08

melindaville

@MadameX. Perhaps I should clarify. I don't think that faith based programs are bad--to the contrary, I feel many are very good. However, since the faith based initiative of this administration, there are fewer NON-faith based programs, which have a wider appeal. Many people will not seek help if it is through a religious institution because of their own bad experiences with such institutions. We need social programs that are faith based and ones that are not.
8/25/08

dlowe

@MadameX I totally agree with you on that.
8/25/08

MadameX

Melinda, if you lose your job over this, it's not the right job. It's hard to understand how "pretend you've never made a mistake" could be considered solid psychological practice. You're living proof that all of the "it doesn't have to be this way" and "you can turn your life around" talk isn't just talk--that's a powerful message for your clientele and one that is (as I'm sure you know) valued by many a recovery program.

Edit: Thanks for clarifying on the faith-based issue. I agree that there is a need for a wide range of programs to reach the broadest range of people possible.
8/25/08

timethief

Barack Obama on faith based initiatives
www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2008/januaryweb-only/104-32.0.html
8/25/08

melindaville

@MadameX--thank you much. I know I am doing what I need to do. You are right--if I am fired, then it wasn't the right job. I do plan to tell my dept. chair about my book this fall. We'll see how it goes!
8/25/08

dlowe

"So would you keep the White House Office of Faith-Based and Community Initiatives open or restructure it?"

I think they should get rid of it completely.
8/25/08

melindaville

dlowe--I don't know--I think it could be restructured but it might be better all the way around if they simply scrapped it and started over again. I do think that faith based programs are a good idea--many people are most comfortable seeking help through their religious groups--but there are so many people that don't belong to a faith or who are traumatized by their religious upbringing--to a point where they would *never* seek help through a faith based organization.
8/25/08

dlowe

I don't think government should get into church business. With faith-based initiatives come regulations and some of those regulations may force the church to do things that go against their own beliefs.

8/25/08

amitchopra22

to some extent it should be legalized. it should also be lookafter by the cops or a society at the same time.
they should be given i cards by he govt.

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8/25/08

melindaville

I agree that some modicum of protection is needed so others are not harmed they way I was. I appreciate your response!

8/25/08

Which countries have legalized ? And what are the results of those steps taken ? Is it a win-win legislation if at all legalized or will lead to rampant situation ?

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8/25/08

timethief

@crawler
Hi there,
All bloggers have research skills and Google is our friend. Have you searched the net?
which countries have legalized prostitution
www.google.ca/search?hl=en&client=firefox-a&channel=s&rls=org.mozilla:en-US...

What is a win-win situation? Currently in the USA it does seem that *ONLY* the pimps and others at the top of the industry, and the johns are the winners.

"Unlike most of the rest of the world, citizens of the U.S. do not have consenting, in private, adult freedoms. In the U.S. those in power, know what is best for you. The Christian groups (self-righteous minority that has an undeserving influence) that mostly control the power in the U.S. are so morally weak that they can not coerce everyone into their views without imposing their morality by law to force everyone to follow their perverted repressive view. Ironically their views have no biblical basis, yet they try to control with their biblical ignorance all citizens by laws they get passed. Some cities choose not to actively enforce in private morality law crimes while others like Phoenix are very active wasting police resources setting up stings and entrapments, seeking to prevent healthy, safe, private consenting adult activities that benefit the culture." www.sexwork.com/index.html
8/25/08

dlowe

@crawler. Yeah, making prostitution illegal sure made it go away. I sleep better at night knowing there is no prostitution on the streets because, you know, the government said you can't do it.
8/25/08

timethief

@dlowe
lol ... don't tempt me
Big Brother is in your bedroom. Worse still some of your neighbors invited him in and they want a full accounting of what's going on between you two consenting adults, even when violence is not an issue.

[sarcasm warning]
Didn't you know that sex is a sacrament onto God? Well your neighbors want proof that you are married and that you two aren't doing or using anything that separates sperm from egg. (No oral sex or mutual masturbation allowed.) That would be a *SIN* because it would prevent you from receiving all God's little blessings. Whether you can afford to parent them or have the skills to do so or not is *NOT* the issue. Pleasing the father of all paternalists is - DUH. [/sarcasm]
8/25/08

dlowe

@timethief Well it sure worked for the drug trade! Prohibition is always the best way to go. What does history know?

I sleep better with big brother tucking me in at night.
8/25/08

melindaville

lol@dlowe. Yes, big brother does have a nurturing touch--oh that warm and fuzzy feeling.

8/25/08

@TT Hello, It is very natural to think about the welfare of those, who have been sidelined, for one or the other reason, this doesn't mean you lead others on to the path , do as you will, and when all the mess is made up, come back to the books and do research on what is next step ahead.

TT, I understand what you are talking about, it is a very arduous life that you are talking about, you mean to say, that you want to make up a society and still not make up one. Think about those who have already lost their future through mindless liberal lives and now find themselves at the borders of society, will it not be wise to prevent more of us on the same path to destiny and stabilise those who are already lost in maze.

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8/25/08

MadameX

"Think about those who have already lost their future through mindless liberal lives "

I think that's one of the key points being made here, Crawler--no one has "lost his future" unless our closed minds and social policies make it impossible for him to reclaim it.
8/25/08

timethief

@crawler
Thanks for your contribution. I have no words with which to tell you how much respect I have for it.

I do not understand what you mean by this "...you mean to say, that you want to make up a society and still not make up one." I do not understand what you mean by this "mindless liberal lives "
8/25/08

MadameX

TT, take into account that it does not appear that Crawler is a native English speaker. I could be wrong, but I do not believe s/he meant "liberal" in the sense that it's commonly used around here, but in the sense of unrestrained behavior such as promiscuity and drug use that has led to the kind of issues Melinda raised here.
8/25/08

dlowe

@crawler Driving something underground always makes it worse. Pimps are the last ones that want prostitution to be legal. You know why? Think of a pimp now and how they deal with one of their prostitutes filing a sexual harassment claim. They don't call it a pimp slap for nothing.

I've met a lot of pimps and there isn't much more evil than a pimp's heart no matter what rap music or Hollywood tries to tell you.
8/25/08

timethief

@Madame X
Thanks for picking that up. I didn't.
8/25/08

melindaville

Thank you Theresa--I have found that since I became open to change, people have been there, assisting me every step of the way. The road to recovery is not an easy one but a worthwhile one. I am alive today because people took a chance on me. I will give others the same chance I was once so lucky to have been given.

8/25/08

Theresa111

Yes, prostitution should be legalized. They should pay taxes on their earnings, just like everyone else has to.

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8/25/08

melindaville

Theresa--I would go even further--I would say that the businesses should be heavily taxed (not just the workers declaring their salary for taxes) so that we can put the money toward social programs that really help women. There are practically no programs to help women who are in the business.

I am so blessed to have been given another chance. Most people aren't ever given what I was.
8/25/08

Theresa111

There are plenty more chances for you. Just visualize them and somehow they will happen for you. Sometimes ours is not to try to reason it out, but rather to claim our good and accept that it will happen.
8/25/08

dlowe

Visualizing. There is the answer. Jeez, where you been all my life?
8/25/08

Theresa111

dlowe

"God wants you to be what you want to be. In your quiet thinking select your future, accept it as normal for you, and then expect it to happen. Give thanks that the ways and means to bring it to pass are already in action."

You can hasten your good through picturing it.

Taken from Chapter Three of "Open Your Mind to Receive" By, Catherine Ponder.

8/25/08

lordiwanttobewhole

Isn't there some way we could possibly reach young women before they even consider prostitution? Can't we teach young girls about self worth, self respect and believing in possibilities their future that will allow their mind to be the focus rather than their body?

To teach young girls about their potentials in their life and make it possible for post secondary education to be within their grasp would be what I would push for rather than legalization of prostitution.

We need so much in the way of programming for young girls and young men in elementary schools so that the seed is planted early and keep nurturing their strengths!

Teaching kids empathy, compassion, forgiveness, healthy relationship knowledge must be the priority, i believe.

[reply]

8/25/08

dlowe

We have a way. We call it youth ministry.
8/25/08

timethief

Young girls and boys grow up in households. In many of those households children are not wanted. They are neglected and even abused. The surveys of sex trade workers on the streets reveal that the majority of the kids who are sex trade workers were initiated by either their parents and/or by relatives and/or by the friends of their parents. Many were emotional, psychologically, physically and sexually abused by "fathers" (biological and otherwise) for years on end. Most have mothers who were likewise abused in the grandparent's homes before they had husbands who continued the abuse cycle. Some kids were thrown out of their homes for dope smoking and swearing. After couch surfing for weeks and months they "fell" into the trade because they had no other viable choices for self support.
8/25/08

melindaville

@lordiwanttobewhole--I so agree with what you are saying. It is absolutely imperative to our society that young women be taught self-worth, self-respect, and to believe in their future.

Most women who are prostitutes come from deeply troubled, broken homes. In my own case, I was sexually abused starting at a young age. I don't know if any program could have helped me to love or respect myself--I felt I belonged in such a degrading profession because I had been degraded throughout my childhood. It wasn't until I was admitted to a comprehensive drug treatment program that I stayed in for six months and underwent years of therapy that I became a whole person.

Most women who are involved in prostitution feel this is what they deserve, where they belong.

I agree that we need better social programs to help young women--but that will not address the complexity of why some women feel trapped into the profession.
8/25/08

dlowe

I'll take that a step further and say young boys need to be raised to view women as more than just objects for sex but as peers in society. There are too sides to the economics of this. Supply and demand.
8/25/08

lordiwanttobewhole

I don't believe that legalizing is the answer. Lets start right now, fight for programming for children that will ensure that they grow up safe, loved, and cared for.

Lets unite to blog for this, call it Prostitution Prevention Program...or whatever and we will all unite to lobby for government to change the family laws so that parents can realize that fighting over custody is deeply scaring the children involved. Children have to be parented to know how to parent it is a vicious cirlce.

Lets ensure kids have healthy breakfasts and clean clothes to wear. It takes a community to raise children and its the responsibility of all of us to take care of all children.

Don't ignore children in your communities who are abused, report abuse and lobby to ensure the child's future will be changed from the point of reporting the abuse.

Volunteer your time for children's programming, fundraise for programming, take the initive BEFORE it is too late.

Ok, i'm off my podium now
8/25/08

timethief

@crawler
I have trouble understanding you. Although I could be wrong it seems to me that your contributions point to a mindset of banning prostitution. Is that correct or not?
8/25/08

timethief

@lordiwantobewhole
M husband and I have been heavily involved in children's groups and youth groups since we were dating. We have been "there" for many unwanted, and neglected, and abused kids, and we still are today.

8/25/08

@ TT, Answer this question, Is Prostitution the only way out ? Think about legalizing it in the next step.

@MadameX I totally agree with you, I am a liberal person, and I am proud of it, I have never seen anyone through narrow views

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8/25/08

timethief

@crawler
I support decriminalization of non-violent sex for money between consenting adults. I support combined government and charitable organizational funding that addresses the underlying issues of sex trade workers and assists them to become fully fledged contributing members to society. Once they are recovered, healthy, educated and equipped with job skills they may choose what occupation they wish to pursue.

Meanwhile, I support the government insuring that those who choose to trade in human flesh ie. the sex industry pimps are taxed to the eyeballs, regulated and forced to provide benefits, fair wages as well as protection for their workers.

I want to see an end to corporate tax bums being allowed to write off prostitution services (massage, escorts, etc.) in all forms as business expenses.

8/25/08

@ mtyler77, You yourself admit in your reply to @lordiwanttobewhole "I don't know if any program could have helped me to love or respect myself".May be if you could have known or in case some one else knows or be told in a way , what actually is happening around, then I feel a lot could be done.

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8/25/08

lordiwanttobewhole

"I don't know if any program could have helped me to love or respect myself". mtyler77...

I too endured and survived a horrific childhood, most of my adult years were spent overcoming the aftermath.

I kept strong and believed in my future because of a few mentors simply believed in me and had faith in my future. My future felt pretty bleek, every day was misery for long periods of time. I remembered the gentle words from some loving people on my journey and felt the strength to continue.
8/25/08

lordiwanttobewhole

"I don't know if any program could have helped me to love or respect myself". mtyler77...

I too endured and survived a horrific childhood, most of my adult years were spent overcoming the aftermath.

I kept strong and believed in my future because of a few mentors simply believed in me and had faith in my future. My future felt pretty bleek, every day was misery for long periods of time. I remembered the gentle words from some loving people on my journey and felt the strength to continue.
8/25/08

melindaville

@crawler--what I meant is that I grew up feeling so bad about myself, I am not sure that an outside force simply telling me I was worthwhile (i.e., trying to improve my self-esteem) would have worked. I was too deeply scarred by an horrific childhood. I believe programs CAN help to undo the damage--but they must be comprehensive programs that really address all sides of this issue.

In my case, I degraded myself because I felt I deserved to be degraded--therefore, I needed therapy (which I have since had). I also was addicted to heroin, so I needed substance abuse treatment. Additionally, I had no education or training to do any kind of job.

I do believe that social programs can help a person change the direction of her (or his) life. I am sorry if I was not clear on that. I am living proof that they work.
8/25/08

melindaville

Good for you, lordiwanttobewhole.

I am glad that you were able to overcome a tough beginning as I have been able to. It took me a long time but I got there!

8/25/08

@lordiwanttobewhole, Hats off for you Miss !!!

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8/25/08

lordiwanttobewhole

Thank you, I'm still healing, I will be for the rest of my life. I believe that kind words of encouragement can cause miracles to happen in someones life.

We can all pledge to make a positve difference in a child's life every chance we get. We may be the one who can influence positive changes!

8/25/08

gmoney

I would have to say that the incident that you went though that night had nothing to do with you being a prostitute.
The man was sick and would take advantage of any woman. Legalizing prostitution will not stop sick men from doing sick things.
With that said, legalizing prostitution might be a solution......

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8/25/08

melindaville

I'm sorry gmoney--but I disagree with you. I feel it is doubtful that he would have invited a young lady from a bar and did what he did to me. He got away with what he did to me because what I was doing was illegal. He felt that since he paid for the time, he had the right. He also knew that I would never go to the police (which I didn't). A young woman who wasn't working in the profession would have likely gone to the police, which would have deterred this man in the first place. If it had been legal, I would not have felt so helpless--I would have gone to the police, showed them the marks on my body, and the man would have been arrested.

Will there be sick people who will abuse women, such as rapists and such? Yes. But this was entirely different and unless you have been a prostitute, I don't think you can speak on the type of casual abuse that goes along the profession.
8/25/08

gmoney

I am sure that was not the norm. So you are saying if we legalize the age old trade then prostitutes will have rights to press charges for sex acts that go over the line.

The question is what is over the line? What is to much? I know those 2 questions sounds rough, but our government can't manage anything correctly. I can only imagine what rules would be set up. Think about it, Anal sex is still illegal in some states. Our country is to close minded to even truly back such measures.

I would really be curious to how the laws would read.
8/25/08

MadameX

I still haven't had the opportunity to read Melinda's post,since she warned that it was long and I'm still at work, but this slice of the discussion reminds me of the recent Pennsylvania case in which a judge ruled that raping a prostitute at gunpoint wasn't rape at all, just "theft of services".
8/25/08

dlowe

"Pennsylvania case in which a judge ruled that raping a prostitute at gunpoint wasn't rape at all, just "theft of services"

That is sick.
8/25/08

MadameX

Yep, dlowe, it was ugly. Here's a post I did about it at the time, if you can stomach it: whatswrongaroundus.blogspot.com/2007/10/cant-rape-willin.html

8/25/08

@TT I want to say this to you, What you are talking about is traveling a 100 miles to get back home, which you can do instead walking a few steps.

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8/25/08

timethief

@crawler
I still do not understand you. Either you believe prostitution ought to be illegal or you don't. So please stop beating about the bush and answer me directly below.

I believe that prostitution ought to be (or ought to remain) illegal. Yes or No.

8/25/08

Anok

There has already been a lot of great discussion going on here, and I don't have much else to add except that I do believe it should be legalized, decriminalized, and regulated just like any other industry.

I would think that from a "customer" point of view, going someplace where the industry is regulated, knowing that the sex worker is not on drugs, does not have a disease, and does not have a psychotic pimp would be a draw, thus lowering the amount of people willing to go towards illegal (unregulated) prostitution which would certainly help reduce street walking where the abuse occurs.

Plus it will protect the women in the industry from all manner of scum bags, disease, and hopefully it would discourage drug use as well.

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8/25/08

dlowe

"Plus it will protect the women in the industry from all manner of scum bags, disease, and hopefully it would discourage drug use as well."

I agree with you on everything you said up until this point.

Congress is legal and it still hasn't been able to protect us from them. LOL
8/25/08

Anok

Touche

8/25/08

Legalizing is not the solution, it will be again a part of the problem.

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8/25/08

timethief

@crawler
Okay so is it fair to say that you believe that prostitution ought to be (or ought to remain) illegal because you believe that legalizing will become part of the problem?

Please share your solution with us.
8/25/08

melindaville

I am also interested in what your solution might be. I don't think I would have had the experience I had if it had been legal--I really don't. The fact that it is illegal gives sick people the idea that they have the right to treat these women any way they want. They don't treat them as if they are even human.

8/25/08

blogonsmog

Melinda - I want to congratulate you on having the courage to write about your life. Your experience makes you a much more credible voice for issues on prostitution, drugs and other illegal activities than the "experts" who deal with the black and white of text but have no real experience in these matters.

This reminds me of my high school math teacher 30 years ago who, at the end of the school year, said something nice about every kid in the class. He came to one student who had failed the math course and said "you will make the best math teacher. The reason is that you have struggled all year long and now understand what others in your position go through."

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8/25/08

melindaville

@blogonsmog--I love that quote of what the teacher said to the child. What a wonderful point.

I had a Native American medicine man tell me about 12 years ago that there were no bad experiences in life--only learning experiences. My difficult life has given me many opportunities for learning. And now I have the opportunity to help other people who are still suffering as I once was.

8/25/08

@TT Providing more rights to women, I am talking about tougher sanctions against the criminals who commit the crime, say life imprisonment if convicted on sufficient evidence, protecting child abuse if found any, more tougher laws to prevent such abuse, and victims be more suitably compensated.....and so on.

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8/25/08

am I wrong ?

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8/25/08

melindaville

crawler--I agree with all of those things (providing rights to women, tougher sanctions agains criminals who commit crime, etc) but those should be done in addition to protecting women who feel they have no choice but to be in the sex industry. Those things you list are worthy--no doubt--but they wouldn't have helped my situation any.

I don't think that prostitution is a good choice for any woman--believe me. But since it exists now as it always has, I believe it must be regulated so that monsters such as the one in my story cannot harm women.
8/25/08

timethief

@crawler
Well, let's see how it's working so far

(1) Providing more rights to women - it seems the right wing in America is moving in the opposite direction. See above www.blogcatalog.com/discuss/entry/should-prostitution-be-legalized#comment_...

(2) tougher sanctions against the criminals who commit the crime, life imprisonment if convicted on sufficient evidence

What crime? Why should sex for money between two consenting adults be a crime let alone one where imprisonment for life is considered?

In locations where sex for money is a crime do we see that fines and imprisonment of prostitutes and johns has this led to less prostitution?

In locations where women only are stoned to death has this led to less prostitution?

Or do you mean the crime of assault? If so then see Melissa's remarks. For as long as sex for money between consenting adults remains illegal under-reporting of associated crimes will prevail. The criminals who prey on sex trade workers will continue to get away with injuring them and even killing them.

(3) protecting child abuse if found
Children who are known to be abused are taken into custody by the government and sent to either group homes, institutions or foster homes where many experience more abuse and few receive the kind of support and education they need.

(4) more tougher laws to prevent such abuse
Laws are words written on pieces of paper and words on pieces of paper do not seem to prevent child abuse. It seems where poverty and too many children exist in a family unit headed by dysfunctional parents that child abuse is quite common. Even in financially comfortable families laws don't prevent child abuse when one or both parents are dysfunctional.

So how it's working so far?
8/26/08

melindaville

Wrong spot!

8/25/08

Yikes! An hour ago I called Melinda Melissa - how embarrassing. I do apologize. I also notice a rogue apostrophe -- sheesh.

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8/25/08

melindaville

@timethief--LOL--please don't worry about it. People are always confusing my name--I have heard them all--just please don't call me Mindy, okay? Ha ha ha. We'll also forgive your rogue apostrophe. Thank you so much for your comment on the blog--I appreciate it.
8/25/08

timethief

Thanks Melissa.

I thought I should mention that I am Canadian and that in Canada you *CANNOT* be arrested for being a prostitute. That's right in Canada prostitution is legal but there are restrictions.

The laws in Canada are based on the concept of "consenting adults in private" and specifically that the government has no business regulating sexual behavior between consenting adults in private places. However, society does have the right to regulate and ban prostitution in public places and this is the case here. www.sexwork.com/montreal/law.html
8/26/08

melindaville

@TT--that does not surprise me at all about Canada--in almost every way, Canada is much more socially progressive than the U.S. Arresting women for prostitution does absolutely nothing to deter them from engaging in it. It's a cat and mouse game that costs our CJ system millions of dollars. Locking people up for this type of crime is ridiculous beyond words.

8/25/08

womenslegal

I just left a comment on your blog. Wow! Yes! I feel prostitution should be legalized for no other reason but for the protection of all women who are out there right now. It doesn't really matter why women choose that path, what matters is our safety. All women (and men) have the right to be protected from violence and have the right to report it to the police no matter what. The escort services, the pimps, what have you need to be controlled. Their clients have to be screened, but in all fairness, if legalization took place, would protocol be carried through? Would the escort services screen their clients? I feel that wouldn't take place because it would be bothersome and expensive.

As I read your post, it reminded me of the movie "American Psycho". I am blown, glad you are still here with us.

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8/25/08

Anok

They are successful in doing so in Nevada as well as other countries that have legalized prostitution.

I'd say that while i"m sure there will be a few establishments that don't do their job right, a very large percentage will.
8/26/08

melindaville

@womenslegal--I am very, VERY lucky to be alive. I have almost died on four different occasions--twice when I actually was dead (but brought back around through CPR). I put myself in countless other dangerous situations where who knows what might have happened. I have been extremely lucky.

There will always be underground prostitution--no doubt--there will be those who will not register; however, if it were legal, at least women would have a choice about wanting to be better protected. I think we need to have better programs to help women find the help they need--it is very hard for a street prostitute to find the chances in life that I did. I am a huge proponent of social programs for people lost to the underbelly of society.

8/25/08

I have read everyone’s opinion on this post including and not limited to all link’s posted here, as well as some of my own research as my own questions arose per comments posted here. I have visited both your blogs Mtyler 77 and Timetheif. I have to say I found it all very informative with all side covered and debated.

Mtyler77 I bow to you having come through it all too where you are now, with this fierce determination and want to make things better.

Yet, I still do not see a perfect argument or viable solution as to why or if Prostitution should be legalized or kept illegal.

Legalizing it and heavily taxing it for purposes of reform, sound ideally in theory or principle, moreover in a perfect world in which it is not, however, I think it could only work for those who would willingly want to be reformed, as mention several time through out this post, which is not an easy thing to do when dealing with people whom are in the business due to some self-destruct personality issues, drugs, sexual abuse, poverty, isolation.

Quoted from; 10 Reasons for Not Legalizing Prostitution. Link provided by Time thief

“Many women don't want to register and undergo health checks, as required by law in certain countries legalizing prostitution, so legalization often drives them into street prostitution. And many women choose street prostitution because they want to avoid being controlled and exploited by the new sex "businessmen."

Add to that the “Sex Businessmen” who are in and enjoy sole control over their own illegal business and wish to keep it in their own pocket. Both could simply not welcome the interference and just find a way to continue conducting business illegally, therefore, defeating the purpose of legalizing it in the first place and not protecting the people who it is meant to protect. There are so many great points made here from everyone who contributed to your question. However, I still see this failing out the door due to this reason alone. So with that said and for lack of my own suggestions on how to fix the problem,

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8/25/08

Anok

I gotta point out the flaw in this argument (Understanding that you did not make it)

“Many women don't want to register and undergo health checks, as required by law in certain countries legalizing prostitution, so legalization often drives them into street prostitution.

And where exactly does making it illegal force them to do business? (hint, THE STREET!)

I mean, come on. Poor argument
8/26/08

melindaville

Collette--thank you for your comment here.

Since I have been writing my memoir, I have gone through this large satchel of old journals, letters, poetry and lyrics my mother saved for me (which is only a drop in the bucket of what actually existed--I always wrote a great deal but this is all I have left from my hard days), one of the things I noticed is that there were about five letters I had written to my mother, beggging her to help me get into treatment.

Every addict (which is the majority of women who were in prostitution--believe me) has a moment (or moments) of clarity when they see their lives are going in a bad direction and where they want to change the direction of what they are doing. I had this moment of clarity many times--but there were no programs in place to help me--and then the moment of clarity passes.

Not every woman who is working on the street is going to immediately say, "Okay good--now here's a social program to help me get out of the life so I will," but the point is if there ARE programs, then when that moment of clarity occurs, women WILL take advantage of it. Not all women--but certainly it will save lives, such as mine was saved. I believe that thoroughly.

Having social programs to help women go through the tough transitition of addict/prostitute will end up being much more beneficial to our society--AND it will cost less money in the end--plus, we get to save some lives in the process and what could be more noble than that?

8/25/08

this is why I have never run for office haha. I am still teetering on the tip of the fence…. Just my two cents…

Mtyler 77 I look forward to reading your book. You are very courageous to share. Good luck to you.

Sorry it did not post the last part of my comment.

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8/26/08

melindaville

Collette--thank you so much for your kind words.

8/25/08

boytrotters

I am saddened when I read this because I wonder if there is any answer to this multifaceted problem. It seems so insurmountable, especially in the face of human nature; while it can (and does) tend towards acts borne of love and kindness, it can also tend towards the debasement of one's fellow woman (or man) for easy gratification or gain.

This is the problem I'm having: how does the letter of the law possibly account for all the wrinkles and permutations of human behaviour? How does it effectively cover every possible form of abuse (sexual or otherwise)? Prohibition seems laughably redundant; people will pay for sex no matter what. Decriminalisation seems to be nothing more than an exasperated throwing up of one's hands, an "I give up" and "Do what you like" response that doesn't deal with the actual abuse that's going on. Education about the issue is a good start, but even "educated" folks will use others when it comes to sex... and sex is all it is, something we all want, a commodity for others.

Sorry if this seems pessimistic, but the complexity of all this strikes me squarely between the eyes.

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8/25/08

Anok

I will say this much - not all people believe that prostitution is a debasement of other humans and/or feel that it is derogatory or insulting or abusive - including a great deal of prostitutes.

In many cases on the street, it is, which is where legalizing it comes into play - it makes it legitimate, it validates their career of choice. (Well, to some people anyway).

But to really get around the problem, I think we need to stop demonizing sex, as a first step - then selling sex wouldn't be such a socially unacceptable thing, thus debasing and abusing those who choose to do so.
8/25/08

MadameX

"But to really get around the problem, I think we need to stop demonizing sex, as a first step - then selling sex wouldn't be such a socially unacceptable thing, thus debasing and abusing those who choose to do so."

Good use of the word of the week, Anok, but I think that the whole idea that anyone who values sex and sees a person's sexuality as an essential part of his humanity that deserves to be treated as more than a commodity that can be purchased or manipulated or stolen to gratify a fleeting biological urge is "demonizing" sex is pretty weak and tired.
8/25/08

Anok

I think that the whole idea that anyone who values sex and sees a person's sexuality as an essential part of his humanity that deserves to be treated as more than a commodity that can be purchased or manipulated or stolen to gratify a fleeting biological urge is "demonizing" sex is pretty weak and tired.

I was more referring to the stigma attached to people who choose not to value sex in such a manner, and the fact that women are still supposed to hold their sexual natures back - even if they don't want to.

"Hookers are trash, that woman has slept with men for a variety of reasons she's a whore...my God you dress like a tramp!"

A woman who chooses to engage in the sex industry must be:

Deranged, on drugs, have no self esteem, or is a victim...you get the idea.

The fact remains that not everyone sees sex in the same sacred manner as others, and choose to be in this field of work (be it porn, or prostitution legally or not so long as they have not been coerced) and there is nothing wrong with that.

People who constantly consider it a debasement, derogatory, insulting or devaluing career have done so for no other reason than the fact that it involves sex. WOMEN having sex, at that.

Which demonizes sex - that's the root of the problem. Prostitution - sex in general - has been demonized for centuries and the taboo aspect of it has been beaten into us by our puritanical roots.

Can anyone tell me why we shouldn't be allowed to trade sex for money (in a safe environment) without using emotive or religious arguments?

Why is sex so sacred? Is there any actual reason for it?

That is why I used the demonized word of the week - because "sex" has always been a four letter word (er, you know what I mean ) I mean really, in what other industry have we regulated to the trade of personal service for dollars?
8/25/08

MadameX

"Can anyone tell me why we shouldn't be allowed to trade sex for money (in a safe environment) without using emotive or religious arguments?"

Because it encourages people to view one another as objects to be rented out to satisfy their own desires without regard for the human being attached to the body, and that's a problem that goes far beyond the objectification and degradation of the individual woman (or man) in question--it contributes to what may be the single largest problem in American society today, which is the view of other humans as either a means to our own ends or obstacles to be overcome in the drive to achieve our own ends, without any thought to the fact that the person is a person in his or her own right and is important entirely independent of us.

And that has nothing to do with sex--the impersonal purchase of a person's body for sex is just one symptom and one means of reinforcing a much larger and more serious problem about the way we are coming to view (or fail to view) other people.
8/25/08

timethief

The responsibility of the government is to enhance the safety of the public; not to legislate morality.

What could be a more fundamental freedom than the right to make decisions about what to do with one’s own body?
8/25/08

MadameX

If you don't think public safety is impacted by human beings becoming conditioned to view one another as either commodities or obstacles to be swept out of the path, you have a very narrow view of cause and effect--but it's irrelevant, anyway, because opting not to participate in something is hardly "legislating morality". You're not asking the government to mind its own business on the issue of prostitution, but to get IN the business of establishing an "acceptable" way to conduct sex trade and then oversee it. There's a huge difference between "don't tell me what to do" and "you have to help me do whatever I want to do, regardless of what you think about it."
8/26/08

boytrotters

"People who constantly consider it a debasement, derogatory, insulting or devaluing career have done so for no other reason than the fact that it involves sex. WOMEN having sex, at that."

I have no problem with women having sex. Even puritans have sex. Bonk away for all I care. I just don't think that people should be put in a position where they're objectified for the sake of commerce or expedience.

...yes, even though that does happen in many different ways in many different societies all over the world (and not all involving the sex trade).

8/25/08

Hi Anok,
I don’t really have an argument, the whole of my post did not come through and then it would not let me edit it, so now the last of my post seems to be under your comment... sigh. I am still learning how to use the forums. I was more trying to convey that it should be made legal however, feel it would not work to protect the people it is intended to based on the reason quoted in the 10 reasons therefore, I am teetering, I absolutely think there should be change.

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8/25/08

Anok

I've had that happen, sometimes I think we have a forum gremlin that likes ot eat up comments

I know that it wasn't your argument - but it was just to obvious to not point it out anyway.

Let's be real for second, there is a black market for every commodity - legal, illegal, regulated or otherwise. But to argue (as whoever wrote that argument says) that legalization and regulation will force prostitutes into the streets is pretty silly.

They are already on the streets, and the benefit of creating a legal and safe way to do business would lure a great deal of women off the streets - where as the alternative just kinda...leaves them there.

I don't think legalization will solve every problem, but it sure will bring an aspect of safety to a whole lot of people - far more than simply banning it does.

Know what I mean?

8/25/08

kikolani

My opinion on this goes two ways. I think if it were legalized, things would be much safer, for both the workers and the clients.

At the same time, if it were legal, more people would be willing to try it. I could see it becoming damaging to families, where a spouse who might have not strayed before because of the legality issue would be more likely. Or the first timer who might have otherwise waited for a relationship would instead just pay for it, taking away the beauty of their first time being with someone they love.

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8/25/08

Anok

Although I understand your points, I would like to say that we can't legislate away personal choices and mistakes. There are millions of people cheating on their spouses or having sex for the first time with someone they will never marry or be serious with - and prostitution legal or otherwise has little effect on those choices.

Just like many brothels here and abroad, they don't advertise the same way other businesses do. So I don't think we would see some boom of encouragement for affairs. But for the millions of people who would go to a prostitute regardless of their personal choices or situations, it would be a helluva lot safer.

And public safety - not personal choices - are really the issue.
8/25/08

timethief

@kikolani
"At the same time, if it were legal, more people would be willing to try it. I could see it becoming damaging to families, where a spouse who might have not strayed before because of the legality issue would be more likely."

Can you please provide me with links to information regarding countries where prostitution was made legal and thereafter number of prostitutes and johns increased dramatically (over and above the figures accounted for by overall population growth)?

If they do exist I would be most desirous of researching these stats because what I see thus far is the opposite trend.

"Or the first timer who might have otherwise waited for a relationship would instead just pay for it, taking away the beauty of their first time being with someone they love."

It would appear that almost half 48% of high school teens say they have had sex. Therefore when it comes to speaking of first times one should keep that in mind. The increase was 2% between 2005 and 2007, according to data released June 4, 2008, by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. During the same time period, the proportion of high school teens who say they used a condom the last time they had sex decreased 2%. www.thenationalcampaign.org/resources/pdf/SS/SS36_TeenSexualBehavior.pdf
8/26/08

melindaville

@TT--excellent points--thank you.

8/25/08

Yes, Actually I do. What happen to mtyler 77, and the fear she felt, that kept her from reporting it should never happen to anyone. My fear for those who would now be expected to get reformed and did not cooperate out of their own fears i.e. loss of money, or fear of losing there position with the “sex businessman” (their term not mine) who did not want to cooperate would leave them in the same or worst position. I whole heartily agree with you that if we legalize it, it will help a lot. I am just not sure how to go about doing it at this point. The laws would have to be very strictly construed and enforced to protect as well as benefit. Am I wrong?

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8/25/08

Anok

Luckily we already have legalized prostitution with working laws and regulations in place already. (here and abroad)

The business and legal models already exist, there is no excuse not to make it legal all over the country.
8/25/08

timethief

@Anok
Some hair splitting is in order ... lol

There are all kinds of "excuses". What's lacking is reasons.

reason - The capacity for logical, rational, and analytic thought; intelligence; Good judgment; sound sense.
8/25/08

Anok

Very true TT.
8/25/08

timethief

Since joining this forum I think have heard almost every excuse in the book for maintaining the American status quo on antiquanted social policy, and even for time traveling back to the days of the Puritans.

Well, how's it working for you? ... (Said with kind regard)
8/25/08

Anok

Well you know me, TT. I buck the system anyway.
8/25/08

MadameX

I'm all for change. I'd like to live in a country where education is adapted to the needs of each child, instead of watching a wild pendulum swing back and forth so that a substantial number are always ignored. I'd like to see the quality of public education be the same regardless of whether or not you can afford to live in an affluent suburb--I think that's what "public" means. I'd like to see all of the programs Melinda mentioned above implemented for anyone who needs them. I'd like to see an end to "tort reform" that gives corporations a free pass to commit murder and make it profitable, like Merck recently did so openly and publicly. I'd like to see the national debt moving in the other direction. I'd like to see the involvement of the federal government scaled back to something only a hundred or so times as large as what the Constitution envisioned instead of several thousand. That's just a small fraction of the things I think are more pressing than legalizing prostitution. That's my "excuse"--get back with me when everyone has food and and read and I'll have time to think about it.
8/25/08

Anok

Tiffany, while I agree that there are more pressing issues - why is it always so black and white?

Can we not address a multitude of issues at the same time?

All issues are intertwined, anyway.
8/25/08

MadameX

We don't seem to be able to, Anok. We don't seem to be able to address even the most pressing ones.

8/25/08

voodooKobra

"Selling is legal. Fucking is legal. Why is selling fucking illegal?" - George Carlin

Nothing more needs to be said.

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8/25/08

timethief

@voodookobra
Provided you aren't referring to prostitution in public places, it isn't illegal in Canada.
8/25/08

voodooKobra

O Canada...

8/25/08

jeflin

It boils down to issues of supply and demand. If you do not legalize prostitution, it doesn't stop people from visiting prostitutes when the desire arises.

On the other hand, if you legalize it, there are conditions which you can set before issuing licenses, like health-checks and education on precautionary measures.

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8/25/08

positivb

Make it legal with efficient regulations and a much much higher minimum wage than most jobs have.

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8/25/08

TangledWeb

It should be legalized because society criminalizes certain behaviour based on religious or social beliefs . One can not truly claim we live in a free society when certain behaviours or practices are criminalized based on religious points of view. Amsterdam and Canada have legalized prostitution. In those locations, the occurence of aids/hiv passed from prostitute to customer are much lower than in the USA where it is unregulated and considered illegal. Legalization would make prostitution a safer activity.

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8/25/08

DaneMorgan

While it is true that prostitution would be safer (in many many more ways than you suggest), the idea that "One can not truly claim we live in a free society when certain behaviors or practices are criminalized based on religious points of view". is false.

Our laws on murder as they stand stem ultimately from the Torah. Once it was perfectly acceptable for some people to kill other people at their whim. The Jews saved one hell of a lot of Europeans when they exported the Torah with the early Christians.

A more defensible position would be that laws that prohibit non violent, non fraudulent, non coercive interactions among people are oppressive whatever the origin of the ideas behind those motivations.

8/25/08