Discussions
Star Wars and Women
Posted by gingerbeer25 • 7/10/08 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: feminism, science fiction, sexism, women
I am huge fan of sci-fi...I think I might have to really begin to redress my unwavering approval of it though. A few days ago I sat down to watch the Return of The Jedi, with my newly attuned feminist eye. I have come to the decision that as much as I love George Lucas, his vision of the future is not one that includes the role of women as active participants.
User Comments
-
haha well said! -
mmm, yes and no. he did include a strong female character in Leia - that is, strong for that time period in science fiction. some of the background strong characters were also women (mon motha for one).
what is interesting is that while there is more of a dearth of strong females among the main characters in the original three movies ... the main line of "canon" books does include MANY very strong female characters. i'm not sure how much of that is Lucas' vision and how much of that is the vision of the editorial staff and the liaison to Lucas staff which handles the way the Star Wars universe is presented outside of the movies.
do some reading on the science fiction novels (particularly the ones that got attention) in the 70s ... in my opinion, most of that is well, hideous dreck. not all of it, but a lot.
today, of course, i don't think Lucas would write Leia quite the same way. (oh wait. after seeing how he wrote amidala's character, maybe he would. blech) well, if star wars hadn't been done and he was writing Star Wars today I don't think he would really be able to sell it without making Leia a bit stronger and perhaps not the only strong female. -
Oh well, then maybe we need more female sci-fi writers. I think the characters in star wars are more adolescent than anything else, and they appeal to the way teenagers think ... I first saw it when I was 14 ... and the female/male roles appealed to me ... but a was a girl. When I watch it now, yeah the feminist in me kind of cringes, but that 14 year old girl in me smiles at it.
Sometimes a movie is just a movie.-
there are a lot of really good female SF writers today. most of what was published at the time of the original star wars was "chicks in chainmail" (and i don't mean the tongue-in-cheek parody books).
check out Melissa Scott and Elizabeth Moon for two such good writers.
-
-
Thanks for the suggestion...I am actively looking for more female centered sci-fi
-
Also, Rebecca Ore and Diana Paxson are good.
there's a decent list over on wikipedia as well:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_science_fiction_authors
some of those writers are more on the fantasy side than the SF side, though. -
I recommend "The Left Hand of Darkness" by Ursula Le Guin. It's an examination of friendship and gender roles on a world where sex assignment can vary with each reproductive cycle. -
excellent suggestion. leguin has several really interesting SF books, but you're right, that's one of the best.
-
-
Here I am promoting my blog and not posting a link to it...good thinking eh?
www.womanist-musings.com/2008/07/don-pick-on-star-wars.html -
Come join us:
www.blogcatalog.com/group/science-fiction-and-fantasy -
The thing is - we'll never know how many storm troopers were women. All we know is Leia's height prejudice against short ones.
Edit: And who amongst us doesn't think that "TK421" in the original star wars was a female storm trooper. Why would command need to check in on TK421 to see if "he" was at "his" post? The only logical explanation is that they knew "he" was a woman. -
Well, it's not necessarily Lucas's vision of the future, seeing how Star Wars is set long long ago in a galaxy far far away. This is keeping with his love of all those early film serials, which also didn't have much for women either.
On the other hand, Leia never misses when she fires her blaster and Mon Mothma is the leader of the Rebellion.
And why are there no female officers in the Empire? Why is there no Grand Moff Susan?-
well, there was mara jade for a while ....
-
-
@drowsey Monkey..a movie is never just a movie it is a product of our social discourse and the fact that Lucas sees fit to marginalize women is a testament to the value of women in the genre.
-
I think it also depends on what you bring to it tho. So he wrote it from a man's perspective. So what. That doesn't change who I am. I watched the movie as a young girl ... it didn't turn me into a stepford wife. Which was another great movie!
-
-
@Gingerbeer: I think you would really like the sci-fi show Firefly. It has strong and diverse female characters that I think you would appreciate. They also have a movie entitle "Serenity" check it out. -
@thefly I will check it out and thanks for the heads up
@drowsey monkey...it is a big deal that he wrote it from a man perspective...all 6 movies with very little female representation. What do we suddenly stop existing in the brave new world? It is important to constantly examine exactly what the media is offering us as entertainment. I watched Star wars for the first time as a very young girl but that doesn't mean that today I should still hold the same impression of it. I have evolved and grown as a person and therefore my opinion has changed.-
Wait a sec... a feminist who hasn't watched Firefly or Serenity? I thought viewing the works of Joss Whedon (i.e. Buffy the Vampire Slayer and Firefly) were required to get your feminist card?
-
gotta agree with RF on this! you gotta watch Firefly and then Serenity.
and if you haven't watched the Buffy series, you should put that in your netflix queue as well! -
gingerbeer - but you also have to look at the original three movies in perspective to the time period. history is important to how we look at any literature.
as for the three recently made movies ... blech. i'm not sure they're worth talking about in any way shape or form. however (oh good lord, i just reversed myself), the 1st three we knew were going to be about anakin. would someone that essentially weak really pick a super-strong female partner? probably not, it would make him feel like he was not in control. there were jedi leaders who were female ... in the background. amidala was kinda strong (except when it came to whiny-arse anakin). it would have been nice to have seen a really strong female character ... but given JarJar, maybe we should just be glad he passed on that. (not to mention the Trade Federation people - stereotypes abounded in the first of the new flicks.)
-
-
@ ender but given JarJar, maybe we should just be glad he passed on that
ROFLMAO damn you made me loose my coffee at that one. I have to re watch the most recent ones again...they have all blended together in my mind. I cannot even say for certain that I remember female Jedi...and when you think of it the role played by Liam Neeson could not have been played by a woman. He had options but he always seems to go the other way.-
I love Liam Neeson
Oh ... I agree with ender tho ... the last 3 movies ... blech (except for Liam) -
heh
-
-
Well he could have done us a favor and if had to stick to the male model pick a better actor to lay Aniken Skywalker. That guy has to be one of the worst actors out there. I saw him in Jumpers recently and he has not gotten any better.
-
lol ... I think you meant "play" Aniken Skywalker
.... or did you?
-
-
LOL yeah I did thanks..
-
And for all we know, the bar was full of lesbians. I mean, how do we know Yoda was a guy?-
because yoda is referred to as "he."
-
Maybe they didn't know either.
-
*sigh*
you take "oppositional" to a whole new level.
-
-
dang...thought the star wars crowd would go nuts over a gratuitous "TK421" reference.
What if I call myself "red 5" ? -
Quit the chatter red 5!
-
"they came from us behind!!!"
Is that what the fat pilot says? I've always wondered that. It kind of doesn't make sense. Almost like "Engrish" or something. -
LOL - I dunno, but I think it's sad I knew that much.
-
I could take it line for line from there.
"get setup for your attack run..."
-
-
Where do you folks who THINK so much come from???
Yes, in retrospect, I guess there aren't many women in Star Wars, well, not in any sort of leadership role. Now I'll be looking for that when I watch it next.-
Take a woman's studies course ... if you don't see these things now, you'll definitely notice it after that, lol. Of course, I still think sometimes it's best just to enjoy a movie for what it is ... entertainment.
-
Holy hell--I don't have time to think that much. My life has way too much drama as is-I like entertainment for entertainment's sake!
-
-
Okay, so seroius Star Wars question that only BC's finest could answer.
In the original Star Wars - when the rebel attack on the Death Star is beginning. "Read Leader" gives an order that sounds something like:
"lock x-wings in attack position" (scenes even show x-wing deployement amongst red squadron).
However, he says the line more like "lock esquals in attack position"
What the heck is he really saying?
And what does the fat pilot say? "they came from us behind" - what is that?
You probably won't be surprised to learn that these questions have actually been on my mind since my childhood. Another glimpse into my madness, I suppose. -
Your one nutty horse. You know, you can probably find the entire dialoge on google somewhere.
-
The fat pilot was Porkins and he got killed before the trench. The Y-Wing fighter was just a little chunky, but he says "Lost Tyree. Lost Hutch. It came from behind." Then Vader shoots him down.
-
"Lock S-foils in attack position."
-
Porkins!!! Yes!!! Yest that's it exactly. Does he say "us" in the whole "it came from behind? I could swear it did. I suppose not.
ALways wondered how old Porkins was deemed fit for flying. He seems to have consumed a good deal of the rations available to the rebels.
Wedge, Luke, and Biggs were all in much slimmer condition.
Kinda funny he was "Porkins" - I wonder who came up with that one?
Edit: What are S-Foils? Was that the phasers or was it a command to the Y-Wings or something? -
fat pilot says: Lost Tiree, lost Dutch.
and then: They came from behind...
(that's how those guys were lost cuz the tie fighters came in from behind)
EDIT:
www.imsdb.com/scripts/Star-Wars-A-New-Hope.html
EDIT2:
S-foils are the wings, essentially, if i recall correctly. haven't you read the books? the main timeline is actually pretty good. not too many hack writers in the series and some of the story arcs are actually very complex literature. -
s-foils:
starwars.wikia.com/wiki/S-foils
"S-foils, also known as Strike foils or Stability foils, were moveable wings attached to the port and starboard sides of a starship, sometimes mounted with weaponry. Normally the foils were locked in a 'closed' position close to the ship for landing and usually for normal flight, but during high-stress situations the foils were folded out. The Incom Corporation manufactured several starfighters with S-foils, including the ARC-170 starfighter and, later, X-wings." -
I knew they got zapped form behind. Who could forget the trench? Just always thought there was an "us" before behind.
Never knew about s-foils though. I wondered if that was it but figured they weren't in an S-shape so I had to be wrong.
My god, they broke down manufacturing of x-wings in those books? I honestly never read one. Loved the movies, but I tended to go with more straight up history books. Still do really - although I find the subject matter fascinating. -
in some of them, yeah, they got down to the mechanics (particularly trying to put things back together)
-
"Lock 'S FOILS' in attck position..."
-
-
i love girls who love star wars. do you sometimes quote the movie? you're like my dream girl if you do. but yeah, lucas is a pervert. did u see princess leia chained in full on s&m gear next to jabba?-
Yeah, I hated that chained to jabba scene. But yes, I do quote it from time to time ... thankfully it goes over most people's heads and they don't notice how nerdy I am
-
u rock! and you're canadian! i love canadians. if bush wasn't leaving the whitehouse i'd seriously think about moving there.
yeah, because i respect women, i hate to say that scene was nasty. but as a boy watching that scene....i must say that leia looked hot hot hot. i love carie fisher. -
lol ... yeah, I am pretty rockin, it's true.
That scene was every teenage boys fantasy ... as a teenage girl watching it, I cringed. Remember the Friends episode about that? Too funny. -
loved that outift she had on....and the chains were hot too. Could've done without the grotesque creatures though.
-
the "grotesque creatures" you mean the ones representative of men? LOL ... see how I brought the topic back to it's original meaning?
-
u liked friends too. awesome. u married? serious boyfriend? serious monkey friend? if i wasn't already hitched, i'd want to im u on eharmoney or something
-
hmm. a man hater
-
HA! You obviously haven't read all my posts about eharmony. I'd put a link in but that would be too shameless.
edit: man hater? Yeah, you definitely haven't been to my blog -
You know, we could have a whole series of threads interpreting the Star Wars characters. There's a lot of symbolism at play there.
Jabba to me was some sort of grotesque representation of lust, power, and greed. I once suggested that Leia being chained to him was means of depicting that even "lady justice" would be raped and abused by such goons if not stopped.
Yeah- I'm crazy - but you've got to give me credit for being able to admit it.
-
-
hmm. i must sign up with eharmoney now. what do i do? do i do a random search for "monkey" you avatar makes me curious of the look of you. not being able to see the right side of your face is hot!
-
I always thought the doll was hot in a freaky way.
-
bloggernoob ... no I hate eharmony, I enjoy mocking them ... and do so often. And you can see my entire face, all bobble headed, actually, if you go to my blog ... my memes & tags page ... there's even a video in today's post.
kdawg - that's not right, man -
crap...that totally came out wrong - I meant to say the doll made you hot....oh man...a bit embarrasing that I said the doll was hot.
-
lmao at kdwags doll love
-
-
I forgot he had the princess chained up in Empire Strikes Back, another strike against him..Nothing like a little gratuitous female bondage...YUCK
-
Well considering Jabba was a lecherous awful nasty creature, it was certainly keeping with the character that he'd do that to Leia instead of just throwing her in the dungeon. And Leia gets her revenge by choking Jabba to death with her chain, which she could never have done without being the slave girl in the first place.
Sometimes believable plot and character development doesn't adhere to the tenets of feminism. -
he does symbolize modern man. he's like a donald trump type. rich powerful and just nasty. like gross and ugly, but rich so he gets to chain up and score women. figuratively.
and monkey, im kidding about eharmony too. i think the commercials are so lame. they try to pass that site off like you're going to find your soul mate. what a bunch of bull. that site is for internet hookups just like match.com, or adultfriendfinder
-
-
the action figure which flew off the shelves the fastest was "slave leia." and i think it's the only one that the damn sculptors got fairly close to looking correct. check out this picture of the 1995 release of leia:
talk about a lack of feminism or accurate portrayal of women, action figure sculptors can NOT sculpt a decent female character. (i posted about this if you're curious: www.coyotethunder.com/RedMonkey/archives/2006/12/men_cant_sculpt.html )
oops. i got off track.-
Leia looks like Dr. Zaius there!
-
LMFAO doesn't she just??? i about retched when that figure came out.
-
I've got more...
Perhaps she's influenced by "Beauty and the Beast"
or perhaps this monstrosity of plastic surgery:
-
haha. i got a nice chuckle out of this. nice finds on this photos. this convo is wasted on blogcatalog. it could be a rockin post on someone's blog. would get a lot of stumble and diggs
-
-
It is a post on my blog www.womanist-musings.com/2008/07/don-pick-on-star-wars.html
-
please feel free to stumble it reddit or dig it thanks.
-
I dunno.... aunt beru was very handy with that pitcher of blue milk and cooked a mean fennel casserole.... then there's Leia - very brave to take the mickey out of a Wookie...and the senator on the rebel fleet - right in the thick pf the battle she was... and wasn't there a rumour that Chewwy was supposed to be female at one time???? sure i heard that once???? and of course the real star - the 'Falcon was always referred to in the female gender and quite right too. -
It's not like Vader and Luke were strong male role models. They were weak-willed, whiney, and conflicted. Unlike Han Solo, who was just hot.-
*snort*
yeah, how many li'l kids really wanted to be luke? han was the man!
-
Add Your Comment
Login to leave a message.
