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Taking The Bang Out Of The Gun Myth
Posted by Timesobserver • 7/01/08 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Hello all. Markstoneman provided a great column that appeared in this past Sunday's Washington Post. The columnist conducted many studies about how guns do not protect owners as many believe.
However, in my editorial I have links to stories and studies that prove that the columnist is wrong.
Please leave your comments here and on my blog and don't forget the polls!
timesobserver.blogspot.com
User Comments
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Have you read Freakonomics?-
Nomadic, I haven't seen you in awhile. How is everything? Anyway, I'll check that out when I can. It sounds good.
timesobserver.blogspot.com
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Great post, I commentated on it.
I'm glad you referenced this:
www.claytoncramer.com/gundefenseblog/labels/residence%20burglary.html
Unfortunately some people will never believe that legal guns in the hands of law abiding citizens are a good thing. I have yet to get a liberal to offer a definitive answer to my question as to how they propose taking the existing guns out of the criminal's hands to make the world a safer place for the rest of us, short of a door to door search and seizure.
It always seems to come back to "stricter laws" or "buy-back programs" with them.
Believe me, I have met some seedy characters in my time on planet earth and they are not in any hurry to sell the government their weapons stockpiles, and they laugh their asses off at gun control laws.-
Offendedblogger, I love your blog! I left a comment on it and I couldn't stop laughing. Ronald McDonald! I'll never look at that guy the same way again!
timesobserver.blogspot.com
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Watched a show on the box last night about rising knife crime in the UK. The kids pointed out how laughable it was to make knives themselves illegal given the content of their kitchen drawers. They pointed out that you can MAKE a weapon out of anything.
It's the people carrying the knives that need changing (addressing, engaging, educating) not the knives themselves. Could the same apply to guns?-
I believe so, yes. I live in an area where I honestly do not know anyone who doesn't have at least one gun and there is virtually no gun crime here. This is because we have different values and community standards that are missing in urban areas.
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I couldn't help seeing similarities with conflict resolution and Iraqi insurgency when I was hearing about gangs in London last night. I feel quite moved to do something to help out. On my own doorstep for a change.
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You know, we really all should be doing more.
I have always wanted to buy about 150 acres and open a retreat for troubled teens or just inner city kids. Horses, camping under the stars, incredible mountain views, watching the wildlife and breathing in all this fresh air is something that I feel would help change their perspective on life.
I know it certainly changed mine, I grew up poor in a rough city in California. -
www.thiswayupezine.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=373&Itemid...
An inspiration......I think I am having a conversation with myself here! -
Nomadic, I actually wrote an editorial about teens in the U.K. who use knives recently. It's been a huge problem since the strict gun ban over there.
timesobserver.blogspot.com
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When I lived in an urban community, I believe I prevented a crime by owning a gun. Without going in to great detail, does anyone think those 4 guys trying to jimmy open the back door of the apartment building really were going to visit a friend whose apartment number they didn't know?-
Exactly, and I like the saying "When seconds count, the police are minutes away."
The key isn't just owning a gun, it is having the self confidence, experience and training to handle it in any given situation. I am sure that if more law-abiding gun owners were given better opportunity to learn the skills and self assurance needed, it would prevent even more crime.
I also believe that many of those who oppose legal handgun ownership have never handled a gun in their life and are afraid of them. Just like with anything else, proper education tends to alleviate irrational fear. -
That is exactly right, Chelle. I never wanted a gun until I learned how to use one. (Mr Anok taught me awww)
Now I'm not so scared, and in fact support the right to own them, and own them myself! -
wrong spot.
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Is that like this Texas man, who gave 2 robbers the death penalty? Eventho the person on 911 told him not to go outside with his gun ... he did ... and he shot 2 guys who were apparently robbing his neighbours house. I mean, it's insane ... he's not even going to be charged.
Why do gun owners get to be the judge, jury & executioner all in one? As a matter of fact, he got to be the police investigators too ... oh yeah, he never talked to them ... he just shot them dead. Nice.
Just another reason I'll never visit Texas.
www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20080701/tezxas_killing_080701...
Yep, nothing like a law abiding gun owner.
If you listen to the 911 tape, this guy should be locked up in jail for the rest of his life, he's nothing but a murderer.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPuM_XAo2BE
This man was not scared for his life. He's just a stone cold killer and he doesn't even sound upset about it. Frightening. The fact that a jury and many American's agree with him ... Shocking.-
Maybe because as adults, we are actually capable of making our own decisions, and can, in fact, act in a way that protects themselves and others without all of the bureaucratic bull, red tape, and legal loopholes.
They were, in fact, robbers. They were, in fact, dangerous. And he did, in fact have a right to defend his neighbor's property.
I for one am tired of being told to cower in the face of danger to wait for authorities who may or may not get there in time, and may or may not prevent anything.
In my area, two young men (armed with guns) broke into a house in the middle of the night - they quickly dispatched the husband, restrained the wife, and two adolescent daughters.
They then proceeded to torture, rape, and beat the woman and her children - then burned them alive while the police sat outside waiting.
The perpetrators have not yet gone to jail, the police men who failed to intervene have not been charged, and three people are dead, and were brutally killed at that. (The husband managed to live).
No, I'm sure if the husband had shoved a shotgun in those men's faces the story would have been much different.
Yes, we have aright to defend ourselves, and I don't need a court to tell me what is and isn't right. I'm all grown up, and I know the difference between right and wrong. -
He wasn't defending his property. He wasn't in danger. He was quite safe in his own home where he called 911. And then he quite calmly told the 911 operator he was going to go kill them. He's a murderer and the public love him.
And the bureaucratic bull as you call it, is known as the legal system in most places ... and I'd rather live somewhere where people go thru the system rather than decide on their own that what they are seeing is something illegal and then just go and kill the people that they think are criminals. -
Texas law states you have the right to defend your neighbor's property as well.
That is exactly what he did.
And that is what I would do too, if I saw some ne'erdowell approaching my neighbor's house. There are little girls inside, and I'll be damned if I cower in my living room while God knows what happens to them. -
Yeah, well, that's ridiculous. He called 911 ... he wasn't in danger, let the police arrest them. When did burglary become a death sentence crime? It's insane.
And the situation of this Texas man ... there were no little girls, no one was raped, I'm not talking about that situation.
I'm talking about this Texas man who called 911 ... and wasn't in danger. He's a murderer. And quite calm & proud about it ... if you listen to the 911 tape it's quite premeditated. The guy needs to be behind bars. -
Not to mention that the two "innocent victims" he shot were illegal Colombian burglars with long rap sheets and protection status under Huston's sanctuary law.
Apparently we should feel sorry for them and let their crimes escalate until they rape or murder someone? -
Well, did the guy who just went out and murdered them know their background? Ummm..NO! It's not up to some old man with a gun to make those decisions. What kind of country is that? Where anyone can just make those decisions on their own?
And I didn't realize that the US charged people for crimes they may do in the future? That's interesting to know. So when you arrest someone for burglary ... you give them the death sentence because obviously their crimes are going to escalate to rape & murder. Oh ... I see. Yeah, that makes sense. -
Yes, DM, we can make decisions on our own.
And, quite frankly, the guy was right, they were burglars (and, by the way, you can shoot intruders if they come into your home BEFORE they do anything horrendous).
it's an actual "prevention" of crime. Imagine that.
How many criminals in that area do you think are recalculating their plans?
And, I didn't see any tears shed for the death threats he received. I suppose that's OK? -
You may think he is a murderer, but a Grand jury of his American peers found him not guilty.
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Face it ... I will never agree it's okay to murder someone because you want to. This guy was not in fear of his life. But according to Texas law what he did was legal. I think that is absolutely insane. It's such twisted logic that I can't fathom it. And never will.
Please don't post some story about kids being raped and how people need to defend themselves ... I'm NOT talking about that. -
I will post stories about that, if the emotive arguments come up.
Which is what this is.
I'm an Anarchist - I have no use for laws at all. But I do have a use for self defense, and defense of others in my tribe (or neighborhood, family etc).
That is what this is about. -
DrowseyMonkey, you didn't mention that in the story that after he shot the criminals, he redialed 911 with a shaken voice and said he didn't have a choice, that they came after him.
It doesn't sound like the cold person you described.
Should he have stayed inside until police came? Sure, it would have been the smart thing to do. However, we don't know if his neighbors were home at the time. If so, then he was acting like a hero.
However, I can't blast this guy. The police can't always be there. It's not fair to criminalize this man who was clearly within the law.
timesobserver.blogspot.com -
I heard the 911 call after he shot them ... he sounded like a murder to me. The minute he walked out that door with his gun ... after the 911 person told him not to ... he wasn't being a hero. He was angry and he shot 2 people in the back. But ... like everyone here seems to be saying ... and like the Texas legal system says ... that's OKAY!
Glad I live in a country where it's not okay. -
While you are glad that Canada doesn't have laws like the one in Texas, from what I understand, not many of your fellow countrymen share your feelings.
Also, he didn't sound like a murderer to me. He sounded like he was upset that he shot the criminals, telling the 911 operator that they came into his front yard. That is trespassing and they are criminals, and you just can't hope that they won't do something to you. I think he did the right thing since they came at him.
timesobserver.blogspot.com -
I don't have stats in front of me but I do not believe that the majority of Canadian's want the type of gun laws that American's have. As a matter of fact, I'd find that very hard to believe.
And based on everything I've read and the updates posted here ... I stand by my belief that this old man is a murderer and should have stayed patiently waiting, quite safely, in his home until the police arrived and did their job. -
DrowseyMonkey, I don't have any stats either, but I remember a few years ago how many Canadians were unhappy with the heavy gun restrictions that was happening in their country. In fact, I remember one Canadian who was actually pleading to Americans in an interview that they should make sure it doesn't happen to them.
As far as this man defending himself in his front yard, I guess we have to agree to disagree. But I did leave you a question under CrotchetyOldMan's post down below. Please check it out. I would like to know what you think.
timesobserver.blogspot.com -
The police, if you call them, are under no obligation to protect you. If a cop sees you being stabbed to death, he is NOT legally required to intervene.
Think about that for a second: we're told we're not supposed to have guns or defend ourselves or others or property, but at the same time, we're told NOBODY ELSE is responsible for it either.
The supreme court ruled (in a case whose name I forget) that a citizen is allowed to intervene to stop a crime [including instances where police officers are committing said crime, by the way]. Lethal force was used in the case IIRC. Sorry I can't remember the case, I took a course in criminal justice in 2001... been a while.
Anyways, if I see my neighbor's house being robbed, I'm going to take care of it. If (and when?) they get away, my house could be next, or maybe a house with somebody in it--somebody defenseless. In my view, if they got away due to MY inaction, it is MY fault. I can't live with that. And the trial lawyers will sue me if I only wound the guy, so now I'm forced to kill. Great world we've setup for ourselves. -
"And the trial lawyers will sue me if I only wound the guy, so now I'm forced to kill. Great world we've setup for ourselves."
Isn't that the truth. I personally could care less what anti-gun people think anymore. Maybe someday me and my Ruger will stop them from being raped and hacked up into small pieces by a criminal.
Of course, they probably will think he was the poor victim, but oh well!
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"Just another reason I'll never visit Texas."
May I ask what the other reasons are?? Just curious. I grew up in Texas and would like to know.-
@Tim - and you would be risking your life if you went there...a tasty thoroughbred like you.
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Okay, it's the only reason I wouldn't visit Texas ... because apparently people who own guns are allowed to determine whether or not you're doing something illegal, and are then quite within the law to kill you.
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lmao, he is in Idaho where we are famous for our potatoes so I think he is in more danger here. I mean, we all know that a juicy steak goes best with a good baked potato!
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Hey Chelle,
Have you seen the bumper sticker that says, "There's room for all of God's creatures...right next to the mashed potatoes." I get a kick out of that one, haha.
I'm fine and dandy here in Idaho. However, my prize winning steer pictured in my avatar is off to the steak maker soon. He's a nice to look at...but I'll enjoy him more after he's been on my grill, in the crockpot, etc., etc. -
Yummmmm prime rib is my favorite.
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@ Tim . Gawd. Me a vegetarian and all. Making light hearted banter with this bovine beast. Have I no shame?
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Well Drowsey,
I think it's safe to assume that you won't be traveling much anymore. Texas isn't the only place where people own guns. I'd come up with another basis for determining the locations that I visit... -
@Nomadic...You can have all of the veggies on my plate as long as you will order your steak medium/medium well and give it to me. Deal? Haha...
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@Tim Deal. I'll even eat your salad.
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Well Tim, why would I visit any place where it's okay to kill people? There are lots of places like that ... and I don't plan to visit any of them. I just didn't realize Texas was one of them. Good to know tho.
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@Nomadic...WooHoo, works for me. I usually opt out of the salad if a good soup is available. However, I'll order the salad this time. Bacon bits?? Haha...just kidding. I couldn't resist. Sorry.
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@Tim. no. no. I am quite used to this form of jesting. And I know not to return it too - as meateaters are sensitive souls and usually end up on a high horse (or cow). I am happy with the salad/veg/meat arrangement. You can have the bread roll, I don't agree with bread (I mean my stomach doesn't, not on principal).
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@Drowsey, I'm not trying to defend what the guy did. I don't really know the whole story. All I'm trying to say is that it doesn't just happen in Texas that way. It's happened and will happen in other places too. I like Texas...I'm kinda loyal to it still. So, I was simply trying to defend the state as a whole.
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@Nomadic
Well if we ever happened to have a meal together somewhere at least we couldn't be accused of wasting food. It sounds like we've pretty much covered it, haha. -
Nomadic, can we have a date then? I love that arrangement with TimMc. Although, Mrs. Timesobserver might not be happy, not because we're on a dinner date, but because I won't be eating my veggies! :-) Although, I'm not too bad with them.
DrowseyMonkey, aren't you stereotyping gun owners as wild cowboys? Most are very responsible.
timesobserver.blogspot.com -
@Timesobserver
Didn't mean to take the thread off track there like I did...sorry. But, it was fun, haha. I have to agree with you that Mrs. Mc wouldn't be too happy about me trading off the veggies either. But, she'd get over it, ha! -
TimMc, that's OK, I don't mean it getting side tracked. The only thing that's not OK is that it's 1:06 in the morning where I am and I want a steak!
timesobserver.blogspot.com
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Actually, the apartment building I lived next door to was mostly senior citizens. The building had been broken into a few times, and the old folks were robbed and beaten.
The police in my city were not going to show up for "suspicious characters lurking outside."
Sheba (my German Shepherd with a nasty disposition) and I went and investigated. The lurkers decided that their friend was probably asleep. This was around 2 a.m.
What do you think? -
I think I'd want you for a neighbor!
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Thanks.
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I know everybody thinks we should just give everything up to a robber. My mother was walking to her car, and the robber punched her in the face. I guess everyone thinks robbers are just nice guys trying to feed their families.
By the way, rather than play judge and jury, we did the right thing and turned the guy who assaulted my mother in to the police.
What happened? This wonderful person then used to follow me around town. I worked in a job where I was easy to find, I drove a large red truck, and nearly every day he would be in my mirror, or would park down the block from where I had a service call. He was a hood, no job, and looked to prey on others. And he tried to intimidate me, looked for a chance when I was vulnerable.
That is what the criminal element is like. They are not simply robbers.
This robber, like so many was a criminal, and an arrogant punk.-
I have no delusions that there are bad or "evil" people in the world. So ... we should just murder them then? Yeah, sounds like a great place to live.
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It only takes a few instances of groups of people defending themselves before the criminals get the message. And it doesn't always end in murder.
That is REAL prevention. -
Murder, by definition, does not take place when a killing happens in self defense.
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Should we move because evil people come into our neighborhood?
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How is it self defence when you're sitting in your kitchen talking to 911 and then calmly say that you're going out to kill them?!? That's murder, not defence. But obviously we disagree. And if this is such prevention, then I'm guessing burglary is very low in Texas.
And if you want to move ... move, if you don't, that doesn't mean you can just shoot them. -
"I have no delusions that there are bad or "evil" people in the world. So ... we should just murder them then? Yeah, sounds like a great place to live."
I was responding to this statement in general. I would take no issue with killing an evil person in self defense and I would hardly consider myself a murder. -
Drowsey, no one knows what they were going to do. And, I can guarantee you that many "robbers' are armed and have no problem with murdering, raping, and otherwise destroying their prey.
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I'll bet burglary is low in that neighborhood now!
So too with more violent crimes.
Oh, and, the best way to shoot is when you are calm. So he acted responsibly by remaining calm. -
Good grief.
I'm not an idiot you know.
I'm talking about the law. The law in Texas ... I don't agree with it. When you listen to this guy's 911 tape, he's calm. He says he's going to go kill them. He's in his house safe.
I think it's murder.
And like I said earlier ... your legal system doesn't allow it to punish people for crimes they may do in the future. -
Bottom line: if the hoods would not have tried to rob someone, they would be alive today.
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Actually, bottom line ... if the guy had let the cops do their job, and not murdered them ... they'd be alive.
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And yet he actually risked his life to defend his neighbor's property. As soon as he went outside, he was no longer safe - and the article states that they came after him.
So, he could have cowered in his kitchen wondering what was happening and if he was next - or he could have walked outside to make them stop - so he ended up shooting himself in self defense. (that is according to teh article you provided)
Actually, bottom line, if the cops had been called and it was left in their hands, they would be alive - and free because it isn't likely they would have been caught, never mind charged. -
Bottom bottom line is that a grand jury of his peers looked at the evidence and made the right decision based on the law. That is the beauty of America, if you don't like the laws of one state, try to change them or move to one of the other 49 states.
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anok - He didn't have to cower in his kitchen, he could have just sat their calmly waiting for the police to take care of things. And he didn't put himself in danger by walking out of his house with a rifle and then murdering 2 people by shooting them in the back.
offended - which is why, like I said, I won't be visiting Texas. -
Yes, walking outside was putting himself in danger.
And I am tired of being told to "wait for the adults - I mean the authorities to handle it".
I'm not a child - and neither was that man. He made his choice.
How glad would you be if someone was breaking into your home, and your neighbor managed to keep them away from you either by scaring them off (with a weapon) or killing them? Even if the neighbor didn't know you were home, specifically, but was worried that you were?
How glad would you be after finding out that the criminals were brutal criminals with crime sheets as long as their arms, that NO harm came to you because your neighbor got there before the police did? -
Drowsey, I know you live in a very safe area. Maybe if you didn't, you may see it differently.
I live in a safe area now, but where I grew up wasn't exactly a nice place. -
Drowsey, you'll be safe in Texas.
My state? Not so much. -
How glad would I be if my neighbour murdered someone? I'd be very unhappy. And in this particular case the 2 people were robbing the place, but what if they weren't ... my point is this old man with a gun shouldn't have the right to make those decisions and I'm glad I live in a country where that is not the law. Obviously you all think it's a fine law and more power to ya.
I'd never live somewhere where it was okay to murder people.
And ... just because you follow the law and let the police do their job, that doesn't make you a child. You seem to have an issue with that Anok. -
I have to remind myself of that constantly, Crotchety. I grew up in a very rough area and saw things that would probably scar my current neighbors for life. It is hard to put one's self in another's shoes, but when you've worn such different pairs like I have, it is a bit easier to relate.
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So you would be unhappy that your neighbor saved your life and/or limb?
*shaking head*
And yes, being told not to take care of something you are perfectly capable of handling yourself is being treated like a child. It's what we teach children to to, instead of teaching them to handle their own problems.
And yes, I have a problem with it. -
I have two neighbors who are law enforcement men. One is a highway patrolman and the other is a retired forest service cop. Their houses are within shouting distance.
Even with them living in such close proximity, I still wouldn't pause for a moment in using a gun to defend my life or my property, and to be honest if I saw two burglars coming out of my neighbor's house, I would be very tempted to shoot their asses. -
And I hope my neighbors would come to my aid too, Chelle.
There is this plague of privacy in the US right now where people are so afraid of being labeled as "nosy" that they don't interact with their neighbors at all.
Have you ever seen it takes a thief? They walked around a neighborhood, blatantly stealing things from people homes, and the neighbors just walked on by - never said a word. Some even said hello to the robbers!
later on the owners of the houses (they also did cars and stuff) - and the neighbors got to see the tapes and they were all very embarrassed.
And the owners were a little pissed too. -
I love that show! It actually pissed me off at first because I thought they were giving tips on how to rob a house, but then I realized that it did expose exactly what you are describing.
Utter apathy.
We are becoming so disconnected in our own neighborhoods that the criminals are gaining an upper hand.
I'll be honest, I have personally known some highly dangerous, criminally minded individuals because I grew up in that environment. I have a hard time feeling sorry for or considering these people as victims.
When you have someone on drugs who has the balls to break in and enter a stranger's home, you HAVE to be realistic and assume that they are capable of much worse crimes and are a threat. -
That's the problem. No one has any idea what the persons robbing the home are thinking, whether they are armed, or not. If robbers do anything other than lay on the ground and surrender, oh well, I can only assume their intentions were not good.
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Did you see the last episode Chelle?
They broke into a police station and stole all of their guns and uniforms!
I was like Oh....MY....God....
Crotchety, yup, you bet!
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Most incidents by gun owners are suicides. That's a good reason to make it hard to buy a gun. Who knows how many people would still be here if they didn't have a gun in the house when they were feeling down.-
Yes, along with spare rope, cars in garages, and pills in the cabinet or booze and drugs to be found, never mind the cocktail of chemicals in the kitchen cabinet or a gas lit stove.
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I'm not sure if you read my editorial Satijournal, but I did discuss that. Sadly, someone who wants to end their life will find other ways of doing it.
In Japan, while the country has a strict gun ban, people are using the popular method of mixing common household cleaners and breathing in the fumes to kill themselves.
Attacking the method of suicide is not going to help people with severe depression.
timesobserver.blogspot.com -
Right, the severely depressed will find a way, but what about the guy who just acts on impulse? Without a gun in the house, he'd probably just get drunk or punch a hole in the wall.
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Psychologically speaking - those who are dead set on suicide will do it regardless, and those who are acting on impulse tend not to follow through. There are exceptions, of course - but it isn't the rule.
That said - If a person wants to take their own life what right do you or I have to say they can't? It's their life, not ours!
While I would prefer a loved one to stay in my life by not killing themselves, it's still their choice, and I'll need to deal with that.
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I thought that was a well written post...
I would much rather live in a world without guns but this is a silly dream as there is no way possible of eliminating guns from Planet Earth currently...
At the end of the day people kill people but guns make it easier...
The biggest problem currently is the easy availability of black market guns that criminals/mentally disturbed people can easily access...
There are many responsible gun owners and collectors globally that do not cause any problems at all to others but nonetheless do pose a risk to society as their collection could be stolen and fall into the hands of criminals/mentally disturbed type people...
It it should also be mentioned that the charity and good environmental projects created by Hunting Organizations like Ducks Unlimited has done wonders and has actually increased goose populations by well planned Habitat preservation projects/developments...
The recent supreme usa court decision will only make things worse...
The invention of guns and nuclear weapons and chemical/biological weapons are three good examples of a Pandora's Box...
www.planetearthpeaceparty.com/-
Well, GerryPlanetEarth, you are right, guns make it easier to kill people. Sadly, even in places with gun bans, that doesn't stop criminals from using knives, swords or other weapons.
But you're also right that there are many responsible gun owners out there who also do a lot of good. There are some who donate the food that they hunt to homeless shelters.
Also, I like your link to your blog at the end of your post. It made it easier for me to check out your blog. Real nice blog you have. Keep up the good work!
timesosberver.blogspot.com
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Follow up from a different paper concerning the two robbers the guy in Texas killed. Both were unemployed illegal immigrants, and one had previously been deported and had been arested for his involvement in the cocaine trade.
From an AP story:
Horn's attorney, Tom Lambright, has said his client believed the two men had broken into his neighbor's home and that he shot them only when they came into his yard. The suspected burglars, Hernando Riascos Torres, 38, and Diego Ortiz, 30, were unemployed illegal immigrants from Colombia. Torres was deported to Colombia in 1999 after a 1994 cocaine-related conviction.-
CrotchetyOldMan, that's what I said to DrowseyMonkey. The burglars came onto the man's yard, meaning they were trespassing. When you know criminals are in your neighborhood and they are walking up your front step, that isn't the time you start hoping they will pass your house by.
DrowseyMonkey, it sounds as if these burglars were going to break into this man's house. Let's say that's the case and he was already inside with his shotgun. How would you feel if he shot them dead once they were inside his house?
timesobserver.blogspot.com -
It's my understanding that's not what happened. I'm talking about what did happen.
I don't even think these robbers had guns. This man told the 911 operator he was going out to kill them and he did. That makes him a murderer. A premeditated one
As for the scenario you mentioned, I'd like to think that he wouldn't shoot an unarmed person, even if they were in his house. Even cops don't do that. If he has a gun and they don't,I dare say there'd be other options other than murder.
As for your note above about "one" Canadian guy on an American tv program telling americans not to have the gun laws we have, well, trust me when I say he'd be in the minority of Canadians. Do any search on google and you'll quickly see, most Canadians do not want the type of gun laws American's have. -
I'd like to think that he wouldn't shoot an unarmed person, even if they were in his house. Even cops don't do that.
Ha! In the US they do. And it practically takes an act of congress to have them held accountable for it, too. -
why would you want to hold cops "accountable" and yet some old man with a rifle who shoots 2 people in the back is a hero?
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Aside from the fact that I posted that remark to let you know that our police do, in fact shoot unarmed people - and often innocent people and get away with it (something you seem to be opposed to for individuals, but not for police?), my personal reason is because the police hold a position of authority over people that they should not have, and often abuse it.
This post explains it a bit better:
identitycheck-anok.blogspot.com/2008/02/why-i-oppose-police-as-authority.ht...
All in all, a single person defending their home or neighbor's house has very little in the way of power except for the immediate area and situation.
The police are an organized group, trusted and paid to use weapons, force, and whatever means necessary to bring a halt to whatever situation, and are rarely held accountable if they did it in an illegal or unethical manner. Therefore giving them a great deal of power over ordinary citizens.
The situations are two very different things. -
Well DrowseyMonkey, in that story I mentioned to you, there were quite a good number of Canadians who were unhappy with the laws who were interviewed. I just mentioned one out of many. And from what I've seen on the Internet, that feeling is still felt that way in Canada.
Now, if Horn did shoot these men if they broke into his house and they were unarmed, he is still in the right. There have been many cases that unarmed burglars beating homeowners and even killing them.
timesobserver.blogspot.com -
Well, we'll have to agree to disagree and I'll be proud to be a Canadian and you'll be proud to be an American. And you are quite wrong about the stats. I'll have to dig them up some time and email them to you. Trust me ... the majority of Canadians do not want the kind of gun laws that would allow this kind of thing. And those in the minority who do should move to the US.
Anyway, it's been educational, to say the least.
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Well, if you've read my replies on the other gun control thread, there's no surprise that I'd like Joe Horn as my neighbor. I'm not out to change anyone's mind about the morality of this and I won't change mine, either. Here's my take, for your curiosity only -
In my jurisdiction of about 500,000 population, a juvenile has to commit about 20 property crimes before they're even placed on formal probation, and about five violent crimes, aside from murder. It's oodles more before they see any jail time at all. Cut both those stats in half for adults. Our justice system wants to rehabilitate people, not punish them, and well, it sucks. It didn't start out that way, but this is where we find ourselves today.
Burglary may seem like a little crime. It is not. When your home is invaded you not only lose stuff, you lose your sense of security and peace of mind. Burglars almost always take identity paperwork like insurance policies, credit card statements, anything with a SSN on it. They sell your identity for good money or just assume it themselves for as long as they can. Your life will never be the same after identity theft, speaking from experience.
Do burglars deserve to die? I don't know. Crooks take your right to safety away when they commit crimes. They take chances because the risk to benefit ratio is very low. Texas has returned to pioneer justice, a much simpler concept than our convoluted redemption process that churns out parolees who reoffend 70% of the time. Sometimes evolution is not always a step in the right direction.
It takes mounds of irrefutable evidence to convict someone of anything in today's courts. Sometimes that's a good thing. Usually it is not and one filthy criminal after another laughs him/herself out the courthouse doors. Today Joe Horn left the halls of justice and prosecution behind. I for one, would welcome him home.-
HelloIt'sMe, I just read your blog about the LAPD's gang tea party and it's amazing! I can't believe what a waste of time and money that is. Is there a study that confirms this? I would love to see that, because I could use it for my own blog.
But it's a shame that Jim Horn had to go through that. I hope this doesn't come back to haunt him.
timesobserver.blogspot.com -
[It takes mounds of irrefutable evidence to convict someone of anything in today's courts.]
I wouldn't be so sure. Look at the figures for how many people we actually have in jail as a percentage of our population. It's nuts. We have too many laws and we're too good at enforcing many of them. Many criminals get off easy through plea bargaining and such just to save the state money to fight the case in court. Whenever the state budgets are in the red, they always seem to cut court costs first, which is the absolute worst thing you can do.
Another problem is that people who do their time and want to get on with their lives can't because of this "felony" thing on their record. Some smart or even gifted folks can't get the job they'd be good at because of a border-line felony/misdemeanor that fell on the 'felony' side because they drew a bad straw in life.
My friend is an upper middle class white guy who, as a kid, vandalized some property. Because of his background, he skirted by with a misdemeanor and had to pay back $14,000 in damages (they inflated the figure to milk the situation) working at a supermarket for many months. He learned his lesson and the property owners came out ahead. He's now working for the city making $65k/year.
Now, if he'd been a poor black kid living just a few blocks south--in the inner city--where do you think he'd be right now?
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