Discussions
Thanks for your support for my open letter...
Posted by Epicharis • 8/04/09 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: admins, bc
I wanted to say thank you to all the people who supported my open letter in the other thread.
I have still received no response from the admins. They have not written anything in my shoutbox and the ticket remains closed without comment.
I also wanted to let you know that despite what Tony keeps saying, I used the word 'prick' only once, and only after they had deleted reasonable and polite comments. I did not repeatedly swear at the admins, that is just not true. I know that I've bumped heads with a lot of you, but I hope you all know me well enough to know that that is not my style.
I feel that the response from admins (lying about me and not allowing me to defend myself due to suspension and locked threads) has been quite disgusting.
User Comments
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**Poking head out of sabbatical cave**
I read your letter on the other (now inexplicably locked) thread. I agree 100%.
Whether or not Admin replies to your letter is not the real point, though...the real point is even application of the "rules" to all members, whether they pay or not.
Prior to this incident I had pointed out favouritism and unequal application of TOS rules, the closure of threads that do not violate rules, and failure of Admin to close attack threads and suspend their originators. It is nothing new, although having comments about their inequitable actions deleted is a new twist...there are, after all, no prohibitions in the TOS against expressing negative opinions with regard to the actions of the Admins. And your opinions that were deleted were not rudely or disrespectfully expressed.
The trend towards favouring some members over others has been going on for some time. It seems to be getting worse. Part of what I am doing on my sabbatical is pondering whether or not I want to be a part of a polarized community because that inevitably creates conflict and I find no joy in conflict. Actions of the admins in recent months have supported the increasing polarization by not adhering to its own TOS: failing to remove violations of the TOS and removing things that do not violate it.
I support your letter and I think it is unfortunate that 1)Admin locked that thread (it indicates recalcitrance to me); 2)TOS appears to apply to select members of the community only; and 3)strict adherence to the TOS does not guarantee that you will not find your threads/comments removed or yourself suspended. Enforcement of the TOS appears to be arbitrary and I find that to be, at the very least, abusive. It puts me in mind of the old adage "Power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely."
*pulls head back into sabbatical cave* -
I have no idea about the matter. And, actually I am here to enjoy only (and it's free for me!!! :-)) so I really don't think much at all. Wish that we all can enjoy our time here together always!
Cheers! -
please Epi as hard as it might be, please let us all together, try to put our differences and drama behind. Yes people like Holly and the likes are ANNOYING but seriously without each one of us here, BC would be boring. We are like a village, with the elders, the prostitutes, the idiots, the dummies and just like a village, we sometimes butt heads (although I NEVER do cuz im an angel
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I say let us all look forward to a day we can curse and yell at each other all day without getting into trouble (the forums' promised land). until then, let us just dream of chaos and hope
keep your head up, chica! -
I stated my support in the other letter and that stands. What my wish is that we can all put all of our differences behind us at this point and try to be as communicative as possible.
It would be great if we could get a real dialogue going between the admins and members of the forum on this thread and talk about some of the issues that have been raised in the last week or so, such as favortism and clearly understanding why one situation violates the TOS and another does not.
I teach a lot of communication classes--and I also teach online--which I have been doing since I was a second year graduate student--about 10 years now. In fact, I am currently writing a guest post for timethief on miscommunication in the online world.
It is very easy to offend people in the online world--when we communicate face-2-face (f2f) we have other cues, such as facial expression, body language, and vocal inflection and tone. Therefore, it is even more important (in online communication) to make sure that communication IS open.
I cannot see that a respectful, open conversation would do this community any harm. As long as people remain respectful and calm. I think most of us are adult enough to be able to do that. -
I don't think this is just about that one thread, it's about users being treated equally in general. The rules are not very clear, some threads and comments are removed while others are not, and the reasons seem arbitrary.
I do not understand what reason there would be for admins to lock the letter thread. Are we now being gagged if we speak of the wrong things?
The letter simply asked that the rules be made clear, and that all users be required to adhere to them equally. Is there a reason why the admins would NOT want to do this...? -
they want it to go away rainhat, but the problem with that is some of us are losing respect for BC or getting confused with the arbitrary applied nature of TOS as a result and like SweetViolet questioning whether I want to stay and continue to support BC. -
I agree absolutely with Lolita's comment above and sincerely hope all you wonderful people I've come to know and respect do not throw out the baby with the bathwater.-
I agree with Lolita's opinion too. I think it's great that there are different kinds of people hanging out here, the "controversial" ones (in lack of a better word) as well as everyone else. It makes the forum and the discussions more interesting.
But to use Lolita's example with the village, it seems the police of the village are sometimes throwing some of the villagers in jail for saying "good morning", while telling some of the burglars to carry on. That's not the kind of village I would stay in very long.
I just want to know what the laws are so I can follow them, and I can't think of any good reason for the police to *not* want people to know what the laws are. -
- I respectfully disagree with lolitav and nothingprofound. I do not believe that any good can arise from sweeping this persistent problem under the carpet.
Jafa nailed it. Admin wants the problem to go away but it's not going to evaporate into thin air.
This is a privately owned business and the co-owners can run it any way they please. However, the reality is that the way they run it will either draw members or repel them. When unhappiness prevails in any social community it leaks out of that community and has an effect on membership as well.
The community guidelines as they stand are not problematic what is problematic is the way they are interpreted and applied.
The alternative is for Angie and Tony to discuss the problem openly with members with an aim of resolving it but I see no indication that they will. -
TT--do you seriously think NP is a plant? Or are you kidding? Because I simply cannot wrap my mind around that!
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The rules as they now stand are always the first post on the discussion board:
Welcome to the BlogCatalog Discussions.
The BlogCatalog community believes very passionately in free speech. We also want to provide as many members as possible a beneficial and safe, non-disparaging experience.
In order to meet both these objectives, we ask you to please read and abide by the following community guidelines:
The following types of posts do not facilitate healthy discussion and will be removed:
Personal Attacks
Posts demeaning or attacking another member will be removed & subject you to having your membership removed.
Advertising
Advertisements for a service or product will be removed.
Mean Spirited Attacks
Mean spirited attacks against another BlogCatalog member will be removed and subject you to having your membership reviewed and removed.
Link Requests / Exchanges
Exchange requests & link requests of any type aren't allowed in the discussions. You can however join Groups that have been set up for exchange and link requests at www.blogcatalog.com/groups/popular/
Posts with Links and nothing else.
If all your post says is "Click this link to learn about something" whatever that something is, your post will be removed since it isn't designed to initiate a conversation.
You can link to your blog or another website, however it needs to be as a reference, not as the primary purpose of the post.
The best way to determine if your post is going to be removed is ask yourself the question, "is this post primarily designed to get clicks to my site?" If the answer is yes, then there is a very good chance that your post will be removed.
Pornography & Swearing
Foul language or porn will result in your posts being removed
Inflammatory Discussions
If a discussion becomes inflammatory, the posts in the thread will be removed.
Member Removal
If a member doesn't follow these guidelines, admin will warn them. If after being warned the member continues to engage in the behavior then the member will be banned for a period of time. If the member is banned 3 times, they will be permanently removed from BlogCatalog.
These guidelines are about creating a respectful place for everyone to enjoy.
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wait...can you clarify that for me? I don't understand. -
@melinda
- Yes that idea did arise in my mind and I did type it. Seconds later I removed it as I didn't know where it had come from. Do I embrace that idea now? No. It just passed through my mind.
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Jaybeetee--thank you for posting those. Can I ask an honest question please (I am NOT trying to start trouble).
You state that members are warned before being banned. Was Epi warned? Because, if she was warned, I think I would have a different view of what happened there. I got the feeling that it came without warning--as I have also gotten the idea from a couple of other people.
It seems that some people are suspended very quickly, without warning--at least that is what my feeling is (having never been suspended).
I am also curious as to the methods of deleting comments. It seems some really offensive comments (I have had some directed at me even) are allowed to stand while others are removed.-
I have read those tos rules and they are clear, but like melinda am confused at why some seem to be able to flout them consistently and others who get banned straight away, hence the confusion about them.
Whether it is real of not, there is a perception of favourtism and that has been borne of seeing particular members supposedly supported financially by BC and others whose trollish rude comments go ignored.
Just my humble opinion -
- I concur with your humble opinion.
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I really don't know the particulars of this situation and can not comment at this time. I put a post below explaining that i will be reviewing the moderation process because it is obviously an issue that needs attention.
I want all members to feel welcome and respected. And while I feel we are doing a good job, I respect those who have a different view and will look into what needs to be done so that everyone feels they are being treated with the same level of respect and fairness. -
Jaybetee--thank you so much for responding to my questions. I appreciate it very much. I also appreciate your open mind in trying to make this community a fair and even playing ground.
Have a great day! -
Melinda, I can't find it now, but I believe that in one of the earlier threads on this subject Tony said that Epi had been warned to stop using that kind of language and had persisted. -
In response to negative comments staying on the discussions: If I see them I delete them. While I do scan the discussions during the day, there are a lot of them and it is easy to miss comments. So, please report them if you see them.
If you have reported comments that are rude or attack you or another member and they have not been removed, that is regrettable. Please feel free to send me a private shout if a reported comment is not removed explaining why you feel it violates the rules. I will always be glad to take a second look -
Thanks MadameX--I was not aware of that if that is true. I think if a person ignores a warning, then all bets are off. I honestly do. I think a warning is fair.
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@Jaybetee
- Maybe this situation is one where having yourself, a staff member, responding just perpetuates the perception of what is wrong or maybe not. I could be wrong but I sense that the two co-owners of this business are the ones that members desire to communicate directly with, rather than going through a staff middle-man, so to speak.
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That's a wholly unreasonable expectation. If the owners or upper management of a business took time to personally respond to every customer service issue, there would be no time to actually run the business. That's exactly why "staff" exists.
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- edited to add:
That's exactly why "staff" exists.
Indeed it is and that's why I have nothing more to say in this thread. The problem as existed long before Jaybetee was hired. We will now see a thread filled with what Jaybetee thinks and devoid of contributions from the co-owners. And I'm not amenable to discussing this with staff, and going round and round and round in circle games, so I will remove myself from the discussion. -
@CookingAsshole,
I concur.
what you said below! -
TT, my response is just as valid as that of the owners. I am here as a member of the BC team addressing the issues that are being raised by the community.
I think that BC is unique because in the fact that the owners actually participate in the community and the members can communicate with them directly through shouts, discussions and emails. I don't know many other places where that is the case.
Please do not, however, discount the role that I or the other team members play in the community and suggest that we are not capable of responding to the issues at hand. We are all hear to make sure BC is a strong and thriving community. -
@Jaybetee
I'm aware that you have become the designated spokesperson and I'm not discounting your role. You did not set up the pattern that existed prior to your arrival here. You were not even here for the last several situations.
As I said above I'm not into going round and round and round in circle games. I have different priorities and I want to explain why that is.
I'm a blogger. I have to cope with my BC forum threads and comments comprised of excerpts from content in my own posts, outranking my own posts on my own blog for the same keywords in the SERPs.
I have to cope with the introduction of the toolbar that results in potential readers having to click through BC to get to my blog posts. As most of us are annoyed by having to click and click to get to our destination I have concerns about losing traffic. I also have to cope with the annoyance of closing it so I can secure the actual url for the posts I stumble.
I have to cope with the BC official blog outranking onecoolsite in SERPs because it has a Blogging101 category and the posts to it are competing directly with onecoolsite, as well as, with other blogging tips blogs registered at BC.
I have to cope making DMCA complaints against BC members and other lurkers, who are not BC members ripping off my blogging tips comments made in BC forum threads and publishing them as if the words were their own and not mine. In addition I have to make DMCA complaints against members and lurkers who are likewise ripping off my threads in the BC New Users group.
The reason I have taken the time to explain this to you is because I do care very much about the wellbeing of the BC community, and I do wish to continue making contributions to it. However, I also want you to understand that as there are only 24 hours in a day, and as mine are very full, I don't consider going round and round and round in circle games with you on this issue, to be the top priority when it comes to making an investment of my time.
Best wishes to all for a positive outcome. -
TT, I disagree with you and I think you are discounting my position when you refuse to speak to me because you see me as a "middle man." I am the BC team member who is in here acknowledging the fact that people have an issue with the current way discussions are being moderated and I am the one who is going to handle the situation--not Tony, not Angie, but me.
Consider me BC's ambassador. If you want to have a dialogue, then you have it with me. If you have input on the issue being discussed here--changing rules and procedures to make sure discussions are moderated fairly--I am the one to speak with. If you don't want to speak with me, then you have lost your chance to weigh in on this topic.
I am glad you desire a positive outcome, but don't see how any of your latest comments here are helping to reach that end.
Do not get me wrong I think that your input in the BC discussions is informed and mostly beneficial. I do not, however, understand what the issues you have brought up in your last comment have to do with the situation at hand. I am working to resolve any issues with the discussion area rules and modify procedures to make the moderation run more smoothly and I fail to understand how the issues you bring up(SERP, filing complaints with the DMCA, etc.) tie into that discussion.
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In response to the letter. While I'd much rather read good reviews of BC and hear what a great job we're doing, I understand that negative issues will arise. I for one appreciate all feedback--positive and negative--because all of it helps us determine the best way handle community issues and make BC a place to which bloggers enjoy coming.
I have been away on vacation and so I'm still getting caught up with everything that has been going on while I was away. That being said, I don't know all the particulars of this situation and so I will refrain from commenting on it at this time.
What I will say is that in general it is my goal to make the community a place that members enjoy and to make sure they feel the time spent here is beneficial. I have spoken to the team about the moderation process and it is a discussion that I will continue to have to make sure that the system we have in place is a fair one and is being fairly enforced.
It is regrettable to me that members feel that moderation had not been handled fairly in the past. I know that the BC team wants all members to feel welcome and respected. I take all of your concerns seriously and know that I am always looking for ways to strengthen the community. So, although I feel the moderation process is handled appropriately, I will be reviewing our moderation process and making sure that all of the existing rules are being enforced fairly.-
I do not envy your job...you guys have a lot on your plate!
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I know I have repeated this before, but when I first showed up here one member told me my job would be like herding cats.
I actually think of it more like raising a child. Sometimes you have a good handle on things and everything goes smoothly. other times, situations you never imagined pop up and you have to figure out how to deal with them.
Overall, I think BC is a good community and I enjoy the time I spend here. That being said, there is always room for improvement and so we're always thinking of ways to strengthen the community and make the expereince here a good one. -
thank you I agree with cooingasshole, you have a tough job, but just acknowledging people's concerns is important and hopefully those concerns will help you strengthen BC rather than weaken it.
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@Jaytebee
There are rules, I know. But they are a bit "hazy", as well as applied strangely sometimes. Here are a few examples:
"Advertisements for a service or product will be removed."
Does it count as a service if the author doesn't get paid for it? May bloggers have a blog about how to improve traffic of blogging skills. As many of them offer reviews and such here on the forum I'd call that a service. So does it mean people aren't allowed to promote blogs or posts about these topics?
"Foul language or porn will result in your posts being removed"
The rules do not mention threads about sex. Lolita's sex advice thread was removed, and while the reason was explained later, it might be a good idea to include that reason in the rules so that people (and new users) know about them *before* they post a similar thread.
"Posts with Links and nothing else.
If all your post says is "Click this link to learn about something" whatever that something is, your post will be removed since it isn't designed to initiate a conversation.
You can link to your blog or another website, however it needs to be as a reference, not as the primary purpose of the post."
Does this apply to *all* links, even if the site linked to isn't your own? If you apply this rule literally, it would mean that we can't start threads to discuss a youtube video or an article in the news by linking to it. I've also seen posts removed that included a lot more than just a link, but with reference to this rule.
What about the "shameless blog promotion" category? Are you allowed to post a link to your blog or blogpost in the OP there? Or are you supposed to just promote whatever it is by mentioning it and always without a link? As far as I've seen, a link is pretty much *always* included in those threads, and in pretty much all cases it *is* the primary purpose of the post. Does this mean that we *can* start a discussion about something related and go "and by the way, click *here* for my latest post", since it wouldn't be the primary purpose of the post then?
"Inflammatory Discussions
If a discussion becomes inflammatory, the posts in the thread will be removed."
I guess a definition of what "inflammatory" means would be in order, but I've seen quite a few threads lately that could be seen as inflammatory.
I know I'm being picky here, but honestly, if it's not forbidden by the rules, how are we supposed to know we're not allowed to do something? The result is (and has already been) posts and threads that disappear for what seems to be no apparent reason, and resentment ensues.
*edit:
Ah, I took too long to type and replies already appeared. I second Melinda's post. Thanks for addressing the issue, it is much appreciated! -
RH, thanks for the comment. I will be reviewing the rules and taking a look at whether or not things need to be revised in order to avoid confusion. I appreciate your feedback and truly welcome any suggestions members have for revisions or new rules they feel would be beneficial.
One thing I want to express (or I should sat repeat, as other members have made the point already) is that while BC is a business, it is also a community and without the community the business will not exist. Communities are not static things; they are always changing. Sometimes change is a smooth and easy process; other times it is chaotic. Hopefully, however, no matter how it takes place we want the change to have positive results for the community.
I think we're in a bit of a chaotic change here and it seems that certain members are not satisfied with the way things are being handled currently. That is OK. As I've said before, we respect and welcome your feedback whether positive or negative. I think out of this bit of chaos will come improvements to the community and the result will be positive.
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I thank all of you for the input into this matter and I will be reviewing all of our policies and procedures regarding discussion moderation.
I have asked Epi to contact me directly with any further dialogue or complaints regarding this situation. If anyone want to send any more suggestions regarding moderation to me, please do so via shout or email: jason at blogcatalog.com
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