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The camp that 'cures' homosexuality
Posted by MarkPogue • 10/25/08 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: homosexuality
At a Christian 'boot camp' in the US, those struggling to reconcile faith and sexuality are taught to overcome gayness
(snip)
“The opposite of homosexuality is not heterosexuality,” says Chambers, sagely. “It's holiness.” Speech over, he asks people to come forward to be prayed for. A boy of no more than 16 steps up, hanging his head. When he returns from the stage to the sound of applause, his stony-faced father nods in approval. His mother weeps.
Welcome to ex-gay boot camp.
The belief that homosexuality can be overcome has been fuelling controversy in the US for decades. Although research supporting SSA therapy has been discredited, “ex-gay” ministries are expanding worldwide, even in the UK, where a discreet network practises SSA therapy under the umbrella of “Christian counselling”.
Consider the crisis within the Anglican community over homosexuality, and Exodus begins to offer a strangely seductive solution to reconciling faith and sex. Yet it has been claimed by critics, many of whom have undergone treatment themselves, that some same-sex attraction therapy can exacerbate anxiety and depression, in extreme cases leading to suicidal feelings.
Much more>
www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/comment/faith/article4893735.ece
User Comments
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"Hi! Welcome to Camp Fail, where we will teach you how to suppress your natural sexual orientation so you can live unhappily ever after pretending to be someone you're not!" -
That's horrible, why can't people just live and let live?-
I need a camp to cured of being blind without my contacts, give me near sighted ness and I'd be happy
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Well, now if we could just have a camp that cures red hair, freckles, middle age weight gain and astigmatisms, I could get all fixed up too.-
hey, us redheads rock! -
I'd love to be ex-near-sighted.
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Dane, I hate to tell you, but someone snuck in during the night and cured your red hair. -
@lordiwanttobewhole
For women this is absolutely true. I know it with every fibre of my being. When you're a 6'2 280# man who has a tendency toward wearing black leather, bald suddenly becomes the more attractive option.
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@MadameX
If that really happened, I could save a LOT of time shaving.
PLEASE STOP changing your avatar, I'm getting dizzy. -
Well, I can't stop with THIS one...but I'll get back to normal soon.
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@Friday13
Amen, brother. -
This is disturbing indeed. It treats people like nothing more than beanbags that need the stuffing knocked out of them before they'll be accepted... but all it does is leave them flat and lifeless.
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“The opposite of homosexuality is not heterosexuality,” says Chambers, sagely. “It's holiness.”
Yup I'm sure we all recognize that sage voice of holiness determined to express "homophobia" and to encourage "self hatred", while claiming to be offering loving Christian counsel. [she rolls her eyes] -
Those silly Christians, what will they think of next
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Forced conversion perhaps? The Roman Catholics tried it back in the 1400s. They've mellowed out a lot since then.
The Fundamentalists are more determined to create a theocracy. -
lol -
@ekim
Those silly Christians, what will they think of next
I'm pretty sure it will be hard for them to come up with any new form persecution that hasn't already been cooked up by their forerunners, and then passed off as doing "gob's holy work" so maybe they will revert to re-runs. -
@markpogue
The Fundamentalists are more determined to create a theocracy.
Yes indeed the evangelical fundamentalist "wedge" program does reveal their ultimate aim is changing America into a Christian nation (from republic to theocracy) and then going after the whole world.
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YAY!!!
The Barbie Factory
First Off - Who says homosexuality is wrong and needs cured?
Sounds like Nazi Germany to me.
Get all the bald people!
Ekim & Dane - Ur both out.
Sorry -
Whoaa! Why am I out?
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You can't hide it any more.
Ur hat says it all. -
Dude, I'm not bald.
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Heck, I've been out for a long time... Bald is just the icing on the cake... Or would that be an uniced cake?
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I think it's working for you Dane.
Or should I say Mr. Cutest Avatar -
Heh, I think I have the most votes so far... all four of em. lol.
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Sounds like an anti-sex bootcamp. Makes me wonder how we all got here.-
In happy, healthy, monogamous, loving, thoughtful, planned, church and state approved unions of blessed matrimony, every one of us...
Oh, wait. My mom was a 16 year old runaway living with a hippy she wasn't married to, and hadn't spoken to her mom, who had her under similar conditions at 15...
Oh well, I guess that's whats so wrong with me.
Thank God for hippies who run out on their families when their son is two and cute 16 year olds who love them. Otherwise, I wouldn't be here.
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This thread reminds me of a movie I saw in elementary school.
The Point
- www.youtube.com/watch?v=UjhTBZaVYfA -
Ugh. -
Is there a camp that cures Ignorance?
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Well, there was going to be, but the people who were setting it up were too open-minded to try to change anyone else's view, so it all sort of fell apart.
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Although it's not far away I think the ignorant may have a hard time finding it without extensive mapping reading assistance.
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LOL @ both of you -- oops - all 3.
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♥ you Anniepooh
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Sorry MadameX, I had to do it:
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I think that may be a copyright violation. Or at the very least, unauthorized use of one's likeness.
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No. I changed it 20% (I made it smaller)
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But you forgot to include the "it has been formatted to fit your screen" notice, so I don't think you're off the hook.
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People have told me to "get" or "do" religion. But every club I go to can't find this chick named religion. She must be popular, apparently everyone knows her. I hope she believes in sex before marriage. -
I'm astounded at the ignorance surrounding this still. My youngest brother is gay, as is my very best friend. Having known my youngest brother from his birth, I can attest to the fact that HE WAS GAY from very early on.
I don't think people should go looking for it (ie: the current trend toward being bisexual etc) but it's clearly obvious that it is NOT a disease nor a mental depravity. I don't care about my own feelings about it, either - it just is what it is.
As is typical, many Christians think that their way is the only way and the only way to get it through to others is to ram it down their throats. Not the 'loving' way that Christ would have it, is it?
Sad, sad, sad.-
I agree that homosexuality is is NOT a disease nor a mental depravity. I'll say it again -- it's sad that there are those who refuse to live and let live.
Look at the mean spirited campaign Proposition 8 campaign in California aimed at preventing consenting same sex couples from getting marriage licenses. Only 22% of the citizens of California cared strongly enough to vote on the issue at all. Bearing this electoral turn out in mind this means that only 13% of Californians voted for prop 8. What a waste of time and money. -
So sad.
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"Not the 'loving' way that Christ would have it, is it?"
Actually, Christ's way of loving often included imparting truths that weren't well received and that put the impetus on the person hearing what he had to say to change or to consciously choose to reject him. Reasonable people could argue all day about whether or not this issue is one of those areas, but this idea that saying something is wrong is not Christlike because it's not loving directly contradicts the way Christ lived and spoke. -
No, belittling people and treating them like they have a disease is not the way Christ behaved. Yes, He was very much to the point, as He should have been. I think you're missing my point, or I worded it incorrectly. These camps are the equivalent of the haughty pharisees talking down to the 'sinners'. You can tell someone they're wrong without being an ass about it or pushing them further away.
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If we really knew how many people were Bi, Tran or Gay, we would be astounded.
I'm convinced of that.
Simple Fact - People like to be accepted and they will deny their natural most basic instincts just to belong.
Sad -
Annie, how do you see this as that equivalent? Obviously, you disagree that homosexuality is wrong. That's fine. But what if it were something else, something you agreed was wrong? Is it haughty and "like the pharisees" to offer drug rehabilitation, for instance? I'm having a hard time seeing how this is any different except for the fact that most people agree that drug addiction is a problem and there are differing opinions on homosexuality.
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@MadameX
And I am failing to see how people who choose a different life style can be considered a "problem".
Now - If there were proof that being "Different" were harmful, I may second guess this one.
But until then, I take the side of love and acceptance.
Question - Are all Muslims "bad"?
Question - Are all criminals/murders "bad"?
Question - Are all religious leaders "good"?
I rest my case. -
@MadameX Homosexuality is not a disease and doesn't need to be cured. Its not a matter of right or wrong, it's a matter of what you can and cannot change.
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But Duke, we're talking about two different things. You don't see it as a problem, because you don't believe that God has an explicit plan that it goes against. And that's fine. But you can't judge people who DO believe that by what seems like a reasonable action to you based on your own belief. "Love" to you apparently means never telling someone he or she is doing something wrong or offering help to change something because that's not your business. "Love" to some people means being willing to tell hard truths and extend a hand to change destructive behaviors. Yes, I get that you don't consider homosexuality a destructive behavior, but when you're judging (and you are judging, just like you accuse these camp operators of doing) the people who reach out and offer help that you don't think is helpful, you have to take into account the fact that they truly believe the person in question is hurting himself in signficant ways that he can't see. You can disagree, but it's disingenuous to ignore the role that belief plays in the things these people do and say.
@ekim--I think the above responds to you as well...but I'm far more surprised that you entirely missed my point. -
If God is love and pure love is unconditional, than how can being Gay be wrong?
I'm just saying.
I just can't imagine God freakin out and saying, "Ewww!!! Cooties!"
Wait, wait, wait!
How am I judging?
If I am obviously biased, according to you...
Then you would have to agree that you are also biased. -
Of course, Duke. And how can being promiscuous be wrong? How can being a murderer be wrong? How can being a child molestor be wrong? NO, I'm not comparing homosexuality to murder or to child molesting, but it's absurd to say "how can anything a person has an inclination to do be wrong?" And, just to clarify, I'm not aware of any religious institution that says "being" anything is wrong. ACTIONS are wrong.
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@Madame - I'm not sure how it's obvious that I don't see homosexuality as wrong. I do - in fact, that's why I said, "I don't care about my own feelings about it, either - it just is what it is."
It took just knowing that my family believes homosexuality is wrong for my brother to run off to Cali at 17 years old and nearly die. He didn't want to tell us, even though I had always known, because he was afraid we wouldn't accept him, or worse, lecture him and try to change him.
He believed this because he was immersed in those beliefs for his entire life (a family of preachers and missionaries). When he called to tell me, he had to get drunk first. My father and brothers stopped speaking to him, and they were the most pontifical Christians I knew. Their way of dealing with him and trying to "change" him was to cut him from their lives completely and cause him great pain because of it.
That boy wants nothing to do with the church as a result. That's what I mean. -
"How can being a murderer be wrong?"
Sooo...our founding fathers who fought in the Revolution, they are "bad"?
There is no Black and White.
You must see that.
Religious men are not ALL "good".
There are "bad" religious figures out there.
You must see that.
What is your definition of Promiscuous?
I don’t believe all Gays are promiscuous.
You can't presume to have the "right" answer here.
You would rather a child commit suicide than be who they really are?
I'm not against helping others, as long as it is in the spirit of compassion and it is received with open and willing arms.
*Takes a time out -
Also, I don't want to go into great detail, but I know from experience that drug addiction doesn't just harm the addict. There's a vast difference between homosexuality and drug addicts.
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MadameX, how can you classify homosexuality as a behavior?
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Wait, wait - I think that you all agree here, to an extent, but are missing each other.
Annie is saying that the way we treat others - the action - makes a difference. Tiffany, you too have made the distinction between being and acting...
Jesus would not have looked at Mary Magdeline and said - "you're a dirty whore go repent or feel my wrath!"
No, he let her know that her path of prostitution was sinful in God's eyes, and then HELPED her. He accepted her, he did not mock her, or push her away or treat her like scum.
That's what Annie is talking about.
And Tiffany is talking about the difference of being homosexual, and actually engaging in homosexual acts. -
@Anok - there you go. You have my part right, at least. You're so stinkin' smart.
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I wonder how the priests do in the camp...-
I'm tempted, but I won't reply to that.
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OK, I'm going to throw my two cents in:
But first, a preface - I do not believe these boot camps work, I do not believe homosexuality needs to be cured, I am a gay rights supporter and activist - so with that in mind....
I ran across a blogger some time ago who works/runs one of these homosexuality conversation counseling places...we ha an interesting discussion about it.
there are homosexuals out there who do not wish to be homosexual, and so, places that offer "counseling" and the like to help them not feel, or action their urges actually helps them.
Whether or not you believe that this is due to social conditioning, pressure or even brainwashing doesn't matter - if the individual person does not wish to be or feel like a homosexual, and wants to attend a place like this - and if it helps him out, I think it's fine.
****However! I do take issue with this "bootcamp" being pushed on individuals, children, or the act of shaming - or the notion that homosexuality is something that can be, and needs to be "cured".
it has to be the individual's personal choice, and not the pressuring of their friends and family members.-
Agreed
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I think sometimes we get so caught up in the rights issues that we forget that maybe - maybe they don't all feel the same way about it.
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@Anok - true. My brother is one of the people that doesn't believe in many things other homosexuals take part in. If someone wants to change - I think the option should be there, too.
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I've seen a lot of people struggle with their identity - regarding sexual orientation and other things. I think that so long as they are not seriously harming themselves over it - let them be free to be, or change, who they are.
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@Anok- You mean as long as they are not hurting themselves or anyone else, Right?
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Mike - I'm not sure which part you're asking about?
I think tat if someone is seriously in psychological trouble - like cutting themselves over it, or starting a healthy heroine habit - professional therapy is probably warranted, as the issues are probably more deep seeded than their sexual orientation. Professional, secular and religious therapy is warranted.
However, I think if they are just uncomfortable in their own skin, or with their urges, and actually want to change that about themselves - that's their right to.
SO long as they are not being coerced, forced, etc... -
Anok- "regarding sexual orientation and other things. I think that so long as they are not seriously harming themselves over it"
Or Others? -
I pretty much agree with you, Anok. If a person has homosexual tendencies and urges, and does not wish to feel them, then this, or another type of counseling, may be a valid option for them. However, I also think it is likely a place where children, teens, and young adults are "pushed" to go to by their parents, who think they are "acting out". It all depends on the circumstances, but I still do not agree with anything trying to "cure" or rid the world of something that is not causing harm to the people (themselves and others), the planet or society, especially when its something that is almost definitely something that cannot be "cured". -
Mike - yes, or others as well. I feel that if someone is having urges to hurt others, or themselves then they have more to worry about than their gender, sexuality, or other surface type identity problems, and need to deal with their more serious demons.
Selly - I totally agree.
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Would a "boot camp" cure heterosexuality? NO!!! It may brainwash them temporarily, but the tendencies would still be there. The same with homosexuality.
Why do they always want to change what is NOT harming others???
They are homophobic.-
There is no scientific evidence that suggests that sexual preference can be changed.
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@Dukepro25
>>Murder - Our soldiers over seas.
>>Are they (a good portion of them) not murders?
Uhmmmm... No.
Look up the definition of the word murder.-
As long as it's War, it's ok right?
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It is my belief that we all have sexual predispositions.
Gay - Straight - Bi
We have initial, natural tendencies to act a certain way.
I still believe there is a degree of choice involved, but I do not believe that being different is bad.
If heterosexuality were not the norm, we would not be having this discussion.
Would all heterosexuals be thought of as delinquents if homosexuality were the norm?-
I agree with ya, Duke.
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Is ridiculousity a word? Because this camp is reeking of it.
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Good grief! This positively reeks of ick. A perfect example of why I'm suspicious of organized religion. -
Can I use the word Morons here-
Any healing/therapy should be to help persons live a happy healthy life, and then people make choice about who they love, once they can see through the chaos.
Michael Frante" It's not about who you love, it's about do you love"
And for those of us who were sexually abused by members of the church, i find the whole thing bloody ridiculous
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I take it that nobody here is attending???
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I'm waiting for the camp that cures sexual urges of any nature.
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lol
I'm sooo in! -
ekim: priesthood, perhaps?
(note: not 100% effective) -
@_@
No comment
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I think people would be better served if the camp cured homophobia instead. Just my two cents.
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Fully agree. Would be money well spent.
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Defying mainstream science, 'ex-gay' ministries claim that homosexuality is a chosen behavior that can be 'cured' by David Holthouse
The American Psychiatric Association has officially stated: "There is no published scientific evidence supporting the efficacy of 'reparative conversion therapy' as a treatment to change one's sexual orientation.
... But even now, more than 30 years after American Psychiatric Association deleted homosexuality from its official list of mental disorders, religious-right "ex-gay" ministries across the country propagate the myth that homosexuality is a curable disease.
The largest of these, San Rafael, Calif.-based Exodus International, is an umbrella group, with close ties to Focus on the Family. The group refers adult gays and lesbians, as well as teenagers whose parents are pushing them into counseling, to "ex-gay" ministries throughout the United States and Europe that have names like Straight Path Ministries, Breaking Free, and Straight Ahead.
Exodus' self-stated mission is, "Freedom from homosexuality through the power of Jesus Christ." In practical terms, that translates to support groups, pastoral counseling, intense Bible study, arranged "dates" with members of the opposite sex, and the occasional use of ammonia inhalers in conjunction with gay and lesbian porn. ...
www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?sid=327
Cults, camps and ‘cures’: a brief history of homosexual remedies
counterknowledge.com/?p=178-
Wow!
As long as it is a choice I'm cool with it, I guess.
To a certain extent.
They can't bleed it out of a person.
I take issue with it when they cross lines to assume to "cure" people.
God gave us Free Agency right?
So the end result would HAVE to be the conscious decision of the person participating in the program.
If they presume to “cure” the person of their desires, than that means they are taking that power in to their own hands, away from the individual and also (in away) playing God with that person’s mental and physical state. -
@TT
the only thing that the ex-gay ministries created was a lot more proof to the fact that it does not work by people who have actually tried it....thus creating the ex ex gay.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ex-ex-gay -
@alangayandstraight
I know. I'm wondering if anyone actually clicked the links that I posted above. -
@TT
I had to laugh at the vitamin cure for homosexuality. lol
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Show me documented, scientific evidence that the people who were "cured" of their homosexuality do not have the same genetic differences as "non-cured" homosexuals in a double-blind study and then we'll talk.
www.livescience.com/health/060224_gay_genes.html
I can even tell you that the genes are in chromosomes 7, 9 and 10. So unless the gene expressions have been silenced, I don't see how someone can become un-gay. This also extends into theology. If it's in the genes, God must've put the nucleotides there and allowed gay people to exist. It would also mean that Leviticus and Corinthians got God's word wrong... But then again, the New Testament is assembled from 90 years of religious punditry.-
Seems logical to me. -
Oh and by the way: that article was about as conclusive as TNG Vs the original star trek (uh.. very inconclusive). I'd keep an open mind about the genetic component if I were you. -
www.webmd.com/sex-relationships/news/20050128/is-there-gay-gene
Here's a more definitive article then.
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Do they have a camp that will make my favorite color not be blue anymore?-
lol
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that's discrimanatory because some people are color blind
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Life is a discriminatory exercise.
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Most of the colorblind people I know are colorblind to red, not blue.
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hey don't knock the idea.
remember ted haggard?
well it took the good evangelist three weeks of intense boot camp like therapy to cast the devil’s grip of homosexuality from his soul.
and, glory to god, he tested 100% heterosexual, although i have it on reliable sources that it was touch and go there for the tedster on the oral part of the exam. -
Do they also have a camp for Hypocrisy?-
I doubt it.
AngieSS suggested above that funding camps to cure homophobia would be a better expenditure of money. I quite agree with her. -
TT, I think it is easier to make money off of the desperation of others. Homophobes, to the best of my knowledge, are not desperate.
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