Discussions
The "Real" Crisis......
Posted by AngieA • 9/20/09 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: Culture, health care, health crisis, medicaid, purchasing health insurance
This was a "letter to the editor" in a Jackson, MS newspaper dated August 29:
Dear Sirs:
"During my last night's shift in the ER, I had the pleasure of evaluating a patient with a shiny new gold tooth, multiple elaborate tattoos, a very expensive brand of tennis shoes and a new cellular telephone equipped with her favorite R&B tune for a ringtone.
Glancing over the chart, one could not help noticing her payer status: Medicaid.
She smokes more than one costly pack of cigarettes every day and, somehow, still has money to buy beer.
And our president expects me to pay for this woman's health care?
Our nation's health care crisis is not a shortage of quality hospitals, doctors or nurses. It is a crisis of culture - a culture in which it is perfectly acceptable to spend money on vices while refusing to take care of one's self or, heaven forbid, purchase health insurance. A culture that thinks "I can do whatever I want to because someone else will always take care of me".
Life is really not that hard. Most of us reap what we sow. Don't you agree?
Starner Jones,MD
Jackson, MS
I wonder, what is your take on this?
Would you agree?
User Comments
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The doctor sounds like a racist and would do well to revisit the Hippocratic Oath. He is not there to judge his patients.-
A racist?
Interesting that despite the fact that the letter was void of any specific mention of the race of the patient but the race of the doctor as well.
You're at least as good at spotting the racist in a generic remark as is Jimmy Carter. -
I agree - there was no mention of race in the above letter.
I'm not sure how you perceived this to be racist Doll - would you care to explain how you came up with that observation?
I have a gold tooth. What race am I?
I have a tatoo - What race am I?
I have new sneakers - what race am I?
I have a cell with hip hop rap and R&B on it - what race am I?
I'm just curious how the race card jumped in on this. -
Judging someone by their appearance/accessories is not appropriate or acceptable for a health care practitioner. It's quite clear what I was referring to.
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OK - then you didn't mean RACIST.
OK cool.
Because I have all those things and no one could tell me what race I am based on my accessories or clothing.
And the fact that I have a gold tooth does not mean I'm rich.
I have Ed Hardy Tennis shoes - but I bought those when I had money...
My diamond earrings - which I wear were gifts... And my 2 carat diamond ring was my grandmother's.
So - you cannot judge by accessories.
However - I think this doctor was saying that this girl could afford packs of cigarettes - even tho - needed health insurance - could afford the clothings - but not health coverage.
It's a bad assumption on his part - yes...
But it could be true.
We are assuming he didn't ask - or doesn't know whether he asked his patient or she said something to him.
Yanno.
But it is definitely NOT a RACIST issue in any way.
I agree partially - yeah - it sucks that he made that assumption - but he sees people day in and day out - some can afford health care coverage - OBVIOUSLY - and some cannot - some of those that can - but use Medicaid are the ones he is complaining about.
That is his point, I think.
Not necessarily this particular girl or her race... Right? -
Doll is a racist!!!! -
LMAO CA - I highly doubt that.
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I only discriminate against monkeys wearing fancy new glasses.
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I'm very surprised that anyone DIDN'T perceive the racial overtones in this letter. Do you think the mention of "her favorite R & B tune" was just chance? Or that he thought the musical genre was somehow germane to the issue of national health care? -
Where I'm from listening to R&B doesn't have racial overtones.
Nor does having a gold tooth or any of the other descriptors.
I have all of those things and listen to R&B and have R&B as ringtones.
Do you know what race I am?
I find that very stereotypical.
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The Hippocratic Oath: Modern Version
I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:
I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.
I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures [that] are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.
I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.
I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.
I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.
I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.
I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.
I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.
If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.-
I would agree with that remark and a good thing you posted "The Hippocratic Oath: Modern Version"
Does make me wonder how many docs., do take it to heart. -
Excellent copy - thanks Doll.
I love the H-Oath!
I wish every doctor remembered this.
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I support health care reform 100%. I do believe in personal responsibility, but right now our health care system is geared to benefit no one. The hospitals are going broke. Doctors are burdened by massive liability insurance. The nations largest employers are scooting around legislation that requires them to provide health care insurance for their employees by reducing the majority of their employees to either part time positions or forcing them accept positions as independent consultants.
I have catastrophic coverage only right now. If I wanted to see a doctor, I would have to pay for the office visit out of pocket which comes to over a hundred dollars on a very fixed income.
I don't have gold teeth. I don't have tattoos. I don't smoke (well, not anymore). I am college educated and am stuck in a very unforunate situation by living in a city with over 10% unemployment and rising. I have my unemployment benefits which run out in about 12 weeks. Should I find part time retail work, I would lose said benefits and be forced to work for 1/4 of my old salary. Too little money to be able to afford my crappy studio apartment and certainly not enough to pay my debts.
If I get two retail jobs, I might be able to afford my crappy studio apartment, but I would have to work 50+ hours a week at two jobs to make HALF my old salary. I would still have to buy my own health insurance and still be unable to see a doctor.
So, I'm not very sympathetic to people to claim that the poor are too lazy and don't deserve medical care or any kind of aid. As far as reaping what I sow, I worked 60+ hours a week for a large firm that had nothing to say to me but wonderful, lovely things. They told me over and over again how much they appreciated me and how bright and promising I was. It didn't stop them from laying me off and it hasn't helped me land a SINGLE interview in 8 months. It is a complete disgrace that we allow the insurance lobby and big pharma to run health care policy in this country.
Even during the Great Depression, there was a debate among those who had money and jobs whether or not the people lining up for bread, milk and soup everyday DESERVED such help.
Same argument, different century, same garbage. You either help the poor or you don't. If you think I don't fall into the same category as the man with the gold tooth and tattoos, you're wrong. I am poor. He is poor. I am jobless and dependent on government, as is he.
Now, I am going out for a bike ride and walking away from this entire debate. I shouldn't have stepped into it in the first place as the spectacle that conservative lobbyists and pundits are making of town hall meetings by shipping in the most uneducated, narrow minded and stupid people in the US to derail the debate is an INTERNATIONAL embarrassment.-
I understand what you're saying about helping the poor, and surely we should, but the question is how we do it, and on that me and President Obama firmly disagree. I fear that the cost to individual liberty and the very morals of this country of his plan are too great, and that sooner or later you have to draw the line in cost.
The folks protesting the soup kitchens were, honestly, completely without point, especially since many of those soup kitchens were run by private charity, but one thing we have to dismiss before we can reform healthcare the right way is this STUPID STUPID STUPID argument that we are spending too much on healthcare (which is actually very similar to them.) Waste, okay, maybe there's waste, maybe there isn't, in any case, we need to look at it objectively and not set targets for things that, honestly, we really don't know much about and have only shreds of anecdotal evidence on.
People have the right to spend their money on what they will spend their money, same with corporations. It is from these two that % spending is determined, and when you have an aging population that already has 2 cars, a house, a plasma TV and all the material goods that they need but are facing deteoriation of their bodies, why are you surprised that health care expenditure will go up? Why do you think it is bad for our economy to serve us? If you wanted less relative spending on healthcare you should've had more children! And yes, there is a ceiling to it, it's called demand. Demand will not infinitely increased, it can't, it's limited by how much you can spend and want to spend. And it's not like this doesn't create jobs, unoutsourceable ones at that...
So why are we complaining? The majority of you will say that money can't buy happiness, so why not let it buy one of only a handful of meaningful things (good health) that it can? -
Our health care system is of benefit to the whole of the world.
Implement the kind of reform being spoken of on the Hill right now and medicine the world over will be set back decades.
My biggest problem with health care reform, but not close to my only problem, is that what is being proposed is 100% unconstitutional.
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God help the patients of such a biased, bigoted and arrogant doctor as Starner Jones! Medical professionals, including ER technicians, should operate from a place of compassion for ALL sentient beings, and reserve judgment, stereotyping, and making assumptions about individuals in a health crisis whom they know absolutely nothing about. Their job is to heal and save lives, and the decent, heart-centered medical practitioners don't squander valuable energy or time on anything else.
From CNN: Last year 45,000 Americans died as a result of not having health insurance, the majority unable to afford it, contrary to what Doctor Jones believes: www.cnn.com/2009/HEALTH/09/18/deaths.health.insurance/index.html -
Denying basic health care to every American citizen is nothing but spite and vindictiveness. All the "reasons" against it are just a smokescreen.-
@NP: Sure, but how do you go about giving universal health care? To ignore all other aspects of a situation out of anger is the definition of a temper tantrum.
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Whose anger, Jeremy?
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Mostly the Left's. I don't know if you yourself partake in it. I can be a pretty furious guy, but I'm not angry right now.
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I always like to compare it with a "third world" health. Sick? Go visit the doctor. No high fees, no insurance, no wait time, quality doctors. I have a hard time understanding what's so complicated about this, that they dismiss as "third world" - this is health care utopia!
To get to the roots of my health problems I visited my home country. No doctor in US diagnosed me on any problem let alone have solutions -
Health care is for everyone and arguably satisfactory in most European countries, but just like retirement, health insurance is another Ponzi scheme, which will eventually implode (in Western countries) with runaway inflation. On the positive side, there should be a return to healthy nutritionnal practices and natural remedies, away from the Rockefeller-inspired allopathic school of medecine. -
IMO this doctor's opinion is a strong indication that he is in the wrong profession and ought to seek out career counseling at the earliest opportunity.
I have been following the healthcare issue in America and I'm appalled at much of what I have read and heard.
Which segment of American society is best served by depriving the poor, ailing and unemployed of access to healthcare?
How can it be that right wing religious types, who are under the commandment to feed the hungry and heal the sick, are the most vehement protestors when it comes to providing healthcare to America's disadvantaged?
Are Americans not aware that 1/3 of the children being raised in single parent families today are being raised by mothers, who make less income than their male counterparts do, and who find that the existing healthcare system is failing to provide for them and their children?
Women and the Individual Health Insurance Market: It’s No Shopper’s Paradise nwlc.blogs.com/womenstake/2008/09/women-and-the-i.html
It seems to me that many Americans are unfamiliar with the harsh realities of the individual health insurance market because they receive health insurance through an employer. However, as a number of prominent health care reform proposals consider expanding the role of the individual market, it is important to understand how this system fails women. Download NWLC’s report, Nowhere to Turn: How the Individual Health Insurance Market Fails Women.
action.nwlc.org/insurance
Is it in the best interests of Americans as a whole to deprive 1/3 of the children in their country of access to healthcare? Are they likely to grow up to be healthy, educated and high income taxpayers without such access?
Is it really in the best interest of all the members in any society to deprive a minority from access to healthcare?
I say "yes" to providing universal access to healthcare not only because compassion compels this answer. To me it seems obvious that ailing and financially disadvantaged citizens must have opportunities to become well, in order to enable them to make a greater contribution to society through becoming employed and paying higher taxes.-
Not in a "first world" country .. no
You're being had by the system. It is the starkest failure of capitalism
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I'm afraid that the story of a bad apple can be used as an excuse to justify not fixing a system that is broken in many places, a system where measurable outcomes such as life expectancy have the US ranking at the bottom of the most advanced industrial countries.
The argument is akin to something one used to hear in this country when some conservatives blamed all our ills on welfare recipients.-
Straw man. Many of us do want to fix the system, we just want to fix the fixer first!
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Note the modal verb I used "can be." No straw man there. It can be.
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"The total cost of insurance fraud (non-health insurance) is estimated to be more than $30-40 billion per year. That means Insurance Fraud costs the average U.S. family between $400 and $700 per year in the form of increased premiums."
www.fbi.gov/publications/fraud/insurance_fraud.htm
www.iii.org/media/hottopics/insurance/fraud/ -
It is pretty sad that the physician jumped to conclusions about the person who was there for help.
I am not a professional nor do I claim to know all about this subject but here is my thoughts:
I think health insurance needs to be regulated better. I own my business and I work hard, and I can't afford health insurance, even if I could... I am not sure I would want it, at least until they make it against the law for a health insurance employee to override a Doctor's order for a treatment, and turn down a claim, or turn down a claim because they decide the price is too high.
It's the price of medical care and medications that are the problem.
I know some just want to be free of government run anything, but turning a blind eye to those in need of medical care or medications, who are not rich (who can afford it) or poor (who get it free)doesn't seem very fair to the rest of the working public. -
Good points, and though, I do agree with most of what has been posted up here, on the other hand, what about the rest of us that work really hard to get what we need and want?
Not wanting to step on any toes, yet…..can’t help to think about it, but like it or not, Obama's plan to cover all Americans, because no Americans should have to choose between health insurance and whatever it is an individuals consider to be their own priorities.
Leads me to think, where does one draw the line?
The reality is most American’s have other priorities such as > www.youtube.com/watch?v=FikcOmQZgf8&feature=player_embedded-
I worked really hard and was responsible with my bills, but everyone falls on hard times sooner or later.
You either help or you don't. If you truly believe that people don't deserve a little help when things get difficult, then that's your choice.
But when you do extend help, do it without strings.
The past 8 months have been the most heartbreaking and humiliating of my life. I went from being an educated, professional woman with responsibilities and work ethic, to wondering how long it was going to be before I ended up washing dishes at what used to be my favorite restaurant and working sales at Pottery Barn.
But apparently, my college degree and 7 years of professional experience over-qualify me for menial, entry level positions and I couldn't get a dish washing job, waitressing job, or cashier job if I went down on my knees and pleaded for it.
What am I supposed to do next? What are millions of people just like me supposed to do next? As it is, I am probably going to have to move to another state and city to start all over again. With all my savings gone, this is going to require humiliating myself with my mother to ask for a loan. But I have no pride left, so why not?
In the end, I am going to emerge from this with ruined credit and a permanent sense of financial insecurity, and if I am very, very lucky, I won't get injured or sick.
The very idea of the "haves" criticizing the "have nots" for not working hard enough sickens me. -
@stillthinking
I've been criticized on some other discussions for promoting socialism (as exists in Western Europe, not as existed in the USSR). I've lived in socialist countries and the sense of comfort that some unforseen misfortune in your life won't drive you into poverty is priceless.
The people of Western Europe in general prefer their system to ours, and have better lifestyles. I'm not just quoting statistics from the internet. I've lived there. But mention socialism in America and you're labeled unpatriotic, anti-American, or a terrorist. -
@NT77: But how long can you sustain it? Your unemployment rates are soaring through the roof, your social security problem's awful, your cities are super expensive to live in (London is among the most expensive then the world, and makes LA, Bay Area & NYC look cheap while ATL practically costs peanuts), and you have no real plans for the future. I'm not saying that completely unrestricted laissez-faire is wise, but I am saying that these are issues to consider about how we will take care of our poor because eventually, they will overwhelm the system. Part of the reason I support a WPA - it's a welfare program that churns a profit long-term through public works.
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It is pretty hard pressed to say that American workers would buy beer, designer clothes etc. instead of Health Insurance.
I have found that those who can't afford health insurance also can't afford to get drunk, buy designer clothes etc etc. -
@jeremyjanson
Well I would support a program like the WPA too, so we're in agreement there.
As far as expensive European cities, you're right. For the same money you'd get much more living space in LA than London or Paris. But the European transit systems make commuting much cheaper from the lower-cost-of-living outlying areas.
I lived in Essonne in France, which is a one hour commute to Paris. By buying monthly tickets, it was much cheaper than gasoline for that commute would have been. The same with England. For several months I lived in Southampton, which is about an hour and a half from London. That commute was a little more expensive that Paris's RATP, but it was a hell of a lot cheaper than the Metrolink when I lived in LA.
As to how to support the social systems, I don't know exactly. Many European countries are having concerns over ageing populations. But our system of allowing the elderly to fall into poverty is no solution either. I had an elderly woman in a wheelchair in front of me at Wal-Mart today, trying to buy prescription medication. Her total came to $350.00, and she had to leave without it. The European system have not be perfect, but its better than that. -
@Stillthinking:
I didn’t say anything about not believing people don’t deserve a little help?
I surely do.
If fact been criticized myself if you remember correctly by the “who’s “ on giving to whom I shouldn’t give because of this or that.
I am saying:
I wonder how one draws the line between people who really need the help and those who choose not to get coverage as they make other stuff their priorities?
I guess there isn’t a real answer for that, as if you help a few, you must help them all. -
welcome back stillthinking...we all missed you and your insightful commentary.
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@NT77: Well, I agree with you on most of this but I feel the WPA is exactly how to pay for these programs, and the commuting problems you speak of can be resolved by the work they do. Of course, the funny thing is, mass-transit is actually a place where Europe is more capitalist then we are! There's no private mass-transit left in America for commuting. The only private mass-transit are the airlines and buslines, everything else is government owned.
Still, you have to admit one thing: the American system is considerably more tenable. Growth rates have generally been strong and many of the criticisms (such as the drying up of manufacturing) are actually based on false assumptions about general trends through the country and based on anecdotal evidence from parts of the country where bad economic policy has crippled industrial growth (especially the Northeast and Midwest, and to a lesser degree California.) -
I know that Stillthinking, and I wasn’t speaking about that one particular instant, but…..ok. ?
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I'm sure many people here are tired of me praising the British universal health care system on some of these other discussions. But it was great! The income taxes that pay for the British NHS are less than we Americans pay for our family insurance premiums, co-pays and deductibles. Plus in Britain I never heard from my pharmacist that my insurance wouldn't pay for medication that my doctor prescribed.
Those who whine that they don't want to pay for the healthcare of others need to look harder at our own system. The money we pay for insurance goes to pay for all of the insured by that company. Your payments aren't set aside in a little fund just for you. And by allowing so many to go without insurance, medical professionals and facilities are not compensated when someone can't pay. Therefore the overall cost of care and insurance is driven up.
Universal healthcare doesn't mean that the government runs the healthcare system; it just means that it's paid for through taxes. And there is no governmental control of lives. Other industrial nations have managed it, and it's embarrasing that the world's richest country cannot. -
What makes no sense to me is that this is presented as an argument against universal health care, yet if it's accurate it relates to a woman whose health care is ALREADY being paid for with taxpayer dollars. So, if this is a true story, then "our president" isn't asking this doctor to pay for this person's healthcare (or others like her) at all...the STATE (which provides Medicaid) has already done that, and universal health coverage won't have any impact. One would like to think that a physician would be intelligent and educated enough to understand that distinction.
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Sure, but it's also an example of a leech exploiting welfare. Not a perfect argument against welfare, but a notable downside and one that has to be addressed - I personally favor reinstating the WPA (Works Project Administration) and using our untapped labor to do everything from run State Poison Center hotlines (for the elderly) to expanding the freeway and subway grids in America's cities (the young.)
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The British NHS had its leeches too, who took advantage of the system. But they were a minority, and I see no reason why the majority of the population should suffer for the irresponsibility of a few. We have leeches on our American welfare system as well.
I too would have no problem seeing the WPA reinstated. -
Yeah, both of the cities I've lived in (Seattle & Atlanta) need serious transportation improvement, the entire Southern half of America needs water-grid improvement, trash disposal is a major problem, and the electric grid hasn't been improved in ages. It's more sustainable and really, more moral, then any other welfare program I know of and might even save money long-term by both 1) encouraging people to get off the program and 2) creating things that we would have to pay contracted labor to build instead at a cheaper price.
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@MadaneX
Very good observation.
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People will write anything just to give Obama a hard time and a bad name. Let's not forget that he has only had nine months to clean up an eight year mess.-
Sorry ToughCookieMommy...lol! but it has been a lot longer then 8 years.. People have been struggling with this mess for most of my life.. and I am way past the eight year mark..
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Do you think the proposed "Fat Tax" will help stem the obesity epidemic by facilitating a preventative strategy because people won't pay 15-20% more for a Coke or Pepsi? Supposedly this new sin tax would add $14.9 billion toward health care in the first year. Incidentally, this is roughly the amount that the obesity and overweight epidemics cost the health care system each year. Will you pay more for that soda or will you just quit? Do you think most people are going to quit drinking soda? Personally, I don't think it will be overly effective as a preventative strategy but will definitely raise some money for the system.-
I think it'll raise some money. Canadians, correct me if I'm wrong, but I think healthcare up there is partially funded by heavy taxes on alcohol and cigarettes.
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Sure, okay, that's fair. But it should be primarilly to raise money - I don't like this attitude of controlling other people's lives, but if the money has to be collected somehow I think that's a fair policy.
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For the first time in my life I am without medical insurance and made too much money to be on medicare.
I have degenerative disorder - and for me to go to the doctor and take medicines out of pocket is WAY more than I can afford - if I want to eat.
SO I have not gone to the doctor for over 2 months - and have switched to a less costly medication that does not work.
I have decided that this world and the US need to change their perspectives on health care.
I have put into the system for years and years - and this is the first time I have needed help - but cannot get it.
THIS doctor - however, I agree with him.
There are those of us who need help - who have things that are nice - but because of circumstances cannot pay right now - or any time in the very near future.
THere are some people however - who have the means to pay - but will not - and will cheat the system no matter what.
I have paid for years and years - but the people who cheat the system - they are bad people.
And the doctor has the right to point this out - in my humble opinion. -
Sounds like a lousy doctor who's in it for the money rather than concern for helping people.-
He's also a very new doctor and probably disillusioned with his career choice. He's too young to be passing judgment on patients.
emergencymedicine.umc.edu/classof2010.html -
Funny, I pictured him so differently.
Again, I have to say, you're one quick doll.
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Regardless of how young he is or how old he is --- Or whether or not he is disillusioned or not...
He is right in some respects: THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO CHEAT THE SYSTEM.
AND those people are WRONG - bad people.
I know ... Cause in my case - I can't get health care - and I need it.
Because I made too much in the recent past ONE YEAR - but that doesn't help me right now - so without selling everything - I have to either do without - or start selling.
Yanno?
It isn't really fair to those of us who have paid in for years and years to be turned down when we need assistance.
So - hes partially right and partially wrong.
I see his point of view. -
@wagerwitch
I agree that people who cheat the system are wrong. They make it difficult for those who don't. But no matter what the system, someone will always try to cheat it.
I also agree that your present situation is unfair. As you said, after paying into it for years, you now have nothing. But then why would socialized medicine be so bad? It's always there for you, no matter what kind of hardships you come up against in life. -
NT77 - I've NEVER been against socialized medicine.
Especially now seeing the system from a different point of view - I am very much for it. -
Sorry wagerwitch, my misunderstsnding.
It confuses my why so many American are against it, and often the ones who speak out against it so strongly are the ones who would benefit from it the most. -
Nah - Right now --- Oh boy - right now I could REALLY use it.
Besides it would stop pharmaceutical companies from keeping the right medicines out of our hands.
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If I was walking down the street and I saw a young lady about to die with a shiny new gold tooth, multiple elaborate tattoos, a very expensive brand of tennis shoes and a new cellular telephone equipped with her favorite R&B tune for a ringtone, I would not help here either. It wouldn't even phase me.
Does that sound right?
Or, maybe if I was walking down the street and I saw a doctor (who has issues with simply helping people) and they were about to die, I would laugh hard in their face, kick them in the stomach and go on my merry way.-
He never said he wasn't helping her.
He said that her items said she had money - and that she was using medicaid - AND that is the problem of today's society - and the youth of today - no one wants to take responsibility for their actions... or pay for medical healthcare...
He was wrong in his assumption of her wealth or wealth status - but not in the fact that people DO cheat the system.
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