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The Vatican and The Holy See Figures Are In
Posted by Jeunelle • 7/17/08 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: Economy, finance, holy see, religion, surplus, vatican, world
The American Economy seems to be having an effect as the Vatican is hurt by the weak dollar.
Even the tiniest, most overtly religious nation on Earth has to deal with the worldly, secular matter of finance.
Here's a open book view via the Vatican's bookkeepers, was less than heavenly.
After 3 years of surplus, the Holy See is $14.3 million back in the red.
Hold on for a comment from me below with the figures.
User Comments
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That actually sounds like they're in good shape with defficit of only 14.3 million.-
@kevingoodman and my beloved BC Members.
Sorry I took so long to respond, I am having some trouble with my computer today.
Yup Kevin plus the figures are from a voluntary portion of the world's churches.
I wonder how much they are really stashing away that's not documented?
Two Vatican-funded news organizations, Vatican Radio
and the Vatican Newspaper rake in $22.9 million.
2748 fancifully dressed employees, including 778 ecclesiasitcs,
1637 unordained "laypersons", nearly 100 Swiss guardsmen, plus 929 retirees.
"Maintenance and Repairs", $15.5 million in 2006, not yet reported for 2007.
Trips by the Pope, and other "apostolic nunciatures", (diplomatic missions)
$32.6 million in 2006.
And let's not forget the Pope's 24Kt gold layered clothing and Prada Sneakers. lmao
Not to mention the Pope Mobile...Even Snoop Dogg is jealous.
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If you picture the Vatican as a gilded paradise with priceless works of art, then such bad financial tidings might seem unbelievable.
Thanks to a 1981 decision by Pope John Paul II to disclose Vatican finances and debunk the myth of Vatican opulence, we can now see exactly how money floats in and out of the country.
Surprisingly the Holy See really does rake in a big chunk of it's income from those Sunday collection baskets. Of the $135 million contributed by the institutions, only $29 million came directly from Catholic churches around the world. Churches which, while financially independent from the Vatican, voluntarily fork over a portion of their income. (Holy _hit)And since many of these churches donate in dollars, U.S. Currency problems have had a rippling effect throughout the 100-acre nation.
The rent and sale of Vatican real estate accounted from $57 million of their 2007 income. The struggling stock market gaveth back a slim $2.2 million last year, compared to $21.5 million in 2006 and all was ART.
As a matter of policy, the Vatican refuses to sell any of it.
"The art alone is priceless", says Francis Butler, president of Foundations and Donors Interested in Catholic Activities. "But once you get beyond that, you realize how shockingly small the operation's budget is"
If you are wondering what the Holy See and what is the true purpose is of the "HOLY SEE"
an active participant for the Vatican in international diplomacy with it's representation in the United Nations?-
Footnote:
1 Just for a comparison: Coca-Cola's CEO, Douglas N. Daft, takes home $105 million; Enron's CEO, Ken Lay, exercised $123 million in stock options in 2000, prior to the accounting scandal; General Electric's CEO, John Welch Jr., gets a pension of almost $10 million annually for the rest of his life. But it's Vatican City -- a city state all its own, with a labor force of 3,000 and historic buildings and art that require upkeep -- that gets accused of having all this wealth. Silliness!
source: www.fisheaters.com/vatican.html#1
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The real value in the vatican is beyonds the pinnings of the worlds financial reserve systems.
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@kevingoodman...Would you like to explain that last comment in detail?
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explain further Mr. Goodman
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I mean we’re talking money as it applies to the faith based federal reserves. And - I could spill into a whole philosophical discourse about money. But to make it short - yes, the Roman Catholic world depends on fiat money in it’s day to day dealings - but as an organization it has been around for nearly two thousand years. It is the oldest bureaucracy in the western world - think of eighteen hundred years of collecting art and artifacts and jewels and gold. But now that you bring it up it does sound like it makes for an interesting exploration in concept.
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@kevingoodman...Thank you Kevin, exactly what I thought.
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Hm. I was hoping this was going to be yet another "do you believe in God" thread. There are only about seven of them, so far.-
@howardbannister...I was careful not to have another "do you believe in God" thread. lmao
Only 7 of them, as in 7 heads and 10 horns? lmao
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Ok so that this discussion doesn't start to go off kilter, I would like to make it perfectly clear,
that I am not making fun of other people's religious views.
It seems as soon as I open a discussion about the Vatican or the Pope
some people start to get furious as if I cannot discuss the Vatican or the Pope.
This is current headline news and I just wanted to discuss it.
I find it interesting especially since we didn't know about the Vatican's figures before.
After all thanks to a 1981 decision by Pope John Paul II to disclose Vatican finances and debunk the myth of Vatican opulence, we can now see exactly how money floats in and out of the country.-
But we did know about them Jeunelle and local parish books are open every year for all to see.
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@kevinatseiratalk....Maybe you knew about them but lots of other people including myself didn't.
Also this topic is being discussed in today's local Boston Metro Newspaper,
so it is still interesting to lot's of people.
The Boston Metro is a legitimate Boston Newspaper.
The World's largest global newspaper. -
Hang on a minute...the issue with the Vatican is that all the money has been stolen and the reason that the last two Popes are mobile and never at home is so they won't investigate the billions that are missing.
The Red Panda Psychic has spoken-
@acousticguitarist...lmao..lol
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I am deadly serious
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@ acoustic
can you actually be dead and serious? Wouldn't it more accurate to say you're seriously dead? -
Kevin..that's very funny.
I was just trying to imply that I am serious, although I joke most of the time. -
Acoustic I think you better rethink that being serious thing, if you really want to be taken seriously since dead men tell no lies
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The perception of a great big hidden vault of treasure below the Vatican is just that, perception and not all perceptions are true nor is the stories of great waste.
Scholars are visitors to the Vatican almost every day of the year, non-Catholic scholars. The true value of the Vatican isn't the storehouse of antiquities (which are truly invaluble) but her people.
Story of St Lawrence en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Lawrence
The jewels of St Lawrence en.wikipedia.org/wiki/St._Lawrence#The_jewels_of_St_Lawrence-
Slightly off topic, but while you're on the conspiracy theories...I absolutely love that the Vatican has a "secret archives" link on its website.
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What interest me is the fact that the global collection bin of money is mostly voluntary,
which mean those Churches do not give all, just a small portion.
Probably 5 or 10 percent is what they voluntarily give and the rest is a mystery and off the books.
Of the $135 million contributed by the institutions, only $29 million came directly from Catholic churches around the world. Churches which, while financially independent from the Vatican,
voluntarily fork over a portion of their income.
$135 million - $29 million = $106 million
Where is this $106 million coming from?
What other institutions are contributing this $106 million?-
yes Jeunelle Catholics are big-time donors, and that is why I suggest you go to a local parish to discover what the balance sheet reads, there is no mystery and all collections are accounted for.
ie. expenses
heating, electrical, property maintenance, salaries, mortgages etc... -
And beyond the local costs of running the church, running religious ed programs, conducting charitable activities, etc., those local parishes are also kicking a portion of their collections up to the diocese level to help finance things like the education and preparation of priests and deacons.
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@kevinatserieatalk and MadameX....I'm glad that you both are hear to add the facts to this discussion.
Lots of people just aren't aware of what the Vatican, Church or churches do with all that money and their personal expenses.
So a discussion may be necessary to educate them.
I do not want the discussion to go haywire.
I am hoping for a normal free flowing discussion without insults and finger pointing.
So just know that I am on my best behavior. lol -
Jeunelle, here's what's confusing me--you keep quoting "of the $135 million contributed by the institutions" and then want to know where the part that didn't come from churches came from, but I'm not sure to what "the institutions" refers. Is there more information in the report you're pulling this information from?
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@MadameX...Nah that's all I got from the paper.
Maybe the correct question should be what other churches? Oh I don't know to be sure.
Here is what it said word for word in the newspaper
Of the $135 million contributed by faith institutions in 2007, $29 million came directly from Catholic Churches around the world, while financially independent from the Vatican,
voluntarily fork over a portion of their income. -
Jeunelle don't worry I'm not one to rock the boat and I can't see anything possibly wrong with a discussion like this one continuing. Hopefully the usual "lets derail that thread" by pretending they are offended crowd are at a BBQ tonight.
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Jeunelle the following is alittle history on the reported $29million number coming from ~ 1.2 billion Catholics worldwide
Peter's Pence
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter\'s_Pence
www.usccb.org/ppc/
addendum: check this site out for more details on distribution of funds collected in America, www.usccb.org/nationalcollections/ncbenefits.shtml -
Kevin, I don't think that's what she's asking. I'm actually curious myself. The article seems to say that the Vatican received $135 million from "faith institutions", and that $29 million of that came from Catholic churches. It's tough to think what OTHER "faith institutions" are donating the other $106 million.
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Yup that't exactly what the paper says.
I too am confused. They never said where the other half was coming from. -
Well, if it didn't say "faith institutions" I wouldn't be puzzled. Peter's Pence, which Kevin pointed out, brought in about 50 million Euros last year (down from about 75 million the year before)...but those are generally direct contributions, not coming from "faith institutions"
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Jeunelle I'm not an accountant but it seems to me they've got it all backwards in the paper. Take a look at the links I've provided especially this one
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peter\'s_Pence
At present this collection is taken each year on the Sunday closest to June 29, the Solemnity of both Saint Peter and Saint Paul, according to the Roman Church. According to the report, in 2007, donations amounted to $79,837,843. In 2006 it was $101,900,192. United States was the biggest donor, giving some 28% of the total. It was followed by Italy, Germany, Spain, France, Ireland, Brazil and Korea. -
I think it's great that people willing hand over their money to religious organisations
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It was never our money to begin with, Tony.
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Ok here's another link from Yahoo
www.silive.com/newsflash/international/index.ssf?/base/international-28/121...
It seems the donors what to remain anonoymous.
The Vatican's annual Peter's Pence collection worldwide found U.S. faithful
the most generous in absolute terms of the amount donated, more than $18.7 million.
It also received $14.3 million from a donor who asked to remain anonymous, the Vatican said.
You can also find similar links and views here
search.yahoo.com/search?p=the+vatican+figures+and+14.3+million&fr=yfp-t-501... -
ok here is my take on things
the entire amount is Peter's Pence divided between US and non-US donations.
addendum: US total donations have declined hence a reduction from the 28% and inline with the initial focus of the article and foreign Catholic faith community donations have risen. -
Now the paper does seem a bit off...Oh crap this is it for me I am going to bed
I can't stand it any longer. I'll continue this mess tomorrow...GOODNIGHT
Yau'll can go on without me if you like. You'll probably figure it out faster than I can anyways. -
Are the other faith institutions maybe monasteries, nunnerys and other religious retreats? I know Chimay beer is brewed by monks in Belgium as is Glasgow's favourite drink Buckfast. -
@aningeniousname....Good point. I wish they made it clear as to where the other funds
came from. Seems like they wanted to keep it anonymous and that's not necessarily
a bad thing, I just wished to know. -
Tiff, I wasn't being rude either, and yes everything is only on loan, even the body
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Perhaps this list will help you understand where collections go,
www.catholiccharitiestor.org/home.htm
www.sharelife.org/
www.archtoronto.org/arch_offices/sharelife_faqs.html
www.devp.org/devpme/main-eng.html
this is but a few of the thousands of Catholic charities and programs which make up a vast network of Catholic charities worldwide, no mystery funds allowed darling. -
@kevinatserieatalk....yes I know they have normal expenses but none of that is my argument.
In fact this discussion is not even an argument, it's simply a discussion.-
Are you asking if wealthy donors contribute?
You'll have to be a bit more precise in your questioning Jeunelle.
For example, you could ask if there is government funding making its way to the Vatican similar to that of the United States contributions to the State of Israel of ~3-4 billion per year?
Listen to this link it will really blow you away, Israeli Lobby Feature
www.cbc.ca/thecurrent/media/200709/20070912thecurrent_sec2.ram
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@kevinatserieatalk...I wouldn't dream of it and get all hell break loose on the discussion. lmao
I mean I ain't feeling too fisky tonight. -
@kevinatserieatalk....Thanks for the great links.
It's good to read up on this stuff. The radio sounds interesting too.
OK that's it for me I am off for my bubble bath. -
This is what I don't get: How can the leader of a church justify gold this and that and diamonds and jewels when there is so much poverty everywhere else? I just don't get it! I am not a hater of the catholic church, but as an organization that is based on the teachings of Jesus, isn't it odd that they don't follow his lessons? All of the pagentry really represents the exact opposite of what Christ stood for.-
@scheduledoctor...Well you hit the nail on the head for me but I didn't want to go there
at the moment.
Even Jesus the son of God, wore simple clothing, carried no wealth and helped people.
What are they doing will all that money and art that could be sold off to feed
the multitude of starving nations.?
Not to mention the Pope's 24kt gold layered encrusted robes which could if sold,
feed a small starving African nation?
What business does a Church have positioned as a representative in the United Nations?
It sure makes you wonder, well at least I do. -
Tradition. I doubt the pope really cares about the value of these things as you or I. The value is like those things in a muesem, priceless and important in terms of history.
As for your other comments - I'm not debating religion so I'm going to avoid the example of Christ. What's important is that the Vatican has a much fuller history. It is the only institution surviving that is as old as the Roman Empire - so what do you expect?
I should say surviving from the Roman empire rather than as old as -
@ Jeunelle
Once again it’s important to remember that the Vatican is more than a religious authority but also a temporal authority – how do you deny its influence? If you can’t deny it then you have to except that it still has a place with people and nations.
I believe the Vatican has temporal right based It's on influence amongst the world’s nations just as I believe the Dali Lama does.
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@kevingoodman...I'm not shocked one bit. I do expect it to be so.
I personally don't care to debate religion either as it's a no win situation in views.
My question...is it really that important that the Vatican has a much fuller history? and why should they?
To me it's as outdated and as out of place as having Queen Elizabeth and the Monarchy around.
We have no use for Emperor's anymore.
What use are they to me? What use are they really to anyone?
These questions are not insult but they do come to mind for me.
That is another good question you bring up Kevin,
I don't believe they have any rights, yet they claim to have rights and some people are still riding along side them claiming they do.-
This comment makes me think of a Native American friend I have known
He has had a lot of problems in life and a lot of them have been a sort of identity crisis. His son committed suicide.
I don’t know the complexity or the details but I do know they are ‘outsiders’. And a large part of this illness has been the devaluing of their traditions. They have been forced into an identity crisis and the pain has been real. The value is as much about being connected to their past as it is of their concept of divinity. Tradition is important to the sociological and psychological health of society. -
@kevin...Where the heck were you when I could of used this comment in my discussion at www.blogcatalog.com/discuss/entry/can-culture-survive-in-a-global-society
The loss of someone's culture does a number on indigenous tribes alright.
I don't believe people really know how scary it is for indigenous tribes to see their beliefs
and culture destroyed and devalued right before their eyes. -
Yes you were there but I was hoping for more comments from you. lmao
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Well then I am flattered
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I have been big on tradition because I feel that sense of identity is healthy.
We've been fortunate to be the ones to inherit some very old photographs from the late eighteen hundreds on early nineteen hundred from our family. We’re about to publish those photographs in a book format so all of us can share that heritage. Another project I’ve been doing is collecting recipes and personal stories told by our seniors and cousins. I have an interesting collection of stories now ... But the whole idea is that our children know exactly who they are and in the process we honor those who made us. -
@kevin...I knew there was a reason why I liked you.
Yes I totally agree and I am happy to hear that you have something to pass on to those kids.
I think it's very important for today's youth to have some sense of value, where they came from, so they could stand on solid ground, firm and confident.
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WYD today was all about the re-enactment of Jesus's last moments .. what a spectacle it was to watch.. with Sydney harbour as the backdrop.. we also got our Harbour Bridge and Opera House blessed... PB is pretty kool.. he recieved gifts from the naitives and was treated to their traditional dance.. in full costumes and body paint.. truly memorable.. -
@mizhelena...sounds like a treat.
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What is the difference in this and preachers collecting money for their ministries? TV costs lots of millions and the way some of these people live is pretty rich. It might be better if throwing stones were left to those without agendas. Sorry ... without sin.-
@Theresa111... Yes they do seem to live pretty richly.
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I am not sure I really understand what Theresa111 said, but as a Christian I struggle with much of the pagentry and wealth that surrounds the Catholic Church (and a few other churches as well). I really think it detracts from the main message of Christianity. Maybe that is a stylistic difference I have with other believers, but I feel it is important. Can anyone answer why it is okay for the church to drape itself in gold, prada, etc. while so many go hungry and can't get the care they so desparately need? I know people are going to say, "why can't we all do a better job?" and that is fine, but helping is one of the main missions of the church, or at least it is supposed to be.
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@scheduledoctor
well it isn't a matter of either/or and I believe kevingoodman answered your question above. Come back after your faith community has been around for 2000 years. The Church (Catholic) is older than all governments, pretty much all monarchies etc...
Explain how the Church drapes itself in gold?
I find it very interesting how non-Catholic Christians attack the archelogical history, architecture, artwork and the rest of the antiquities and see merely a monetary value attached. In otherwords perhaps you wish to eliminate the tangable evidence of Christian Church history.
addendum: you also imply within your statement the Church is not helping and fulfilling a mission of charity but obviously you've overlooked the numerous links I've provide above to Jeunelle. -
@scheduleddoctor
A position that’s as old as and older than John Calvin. I've really tried to tackle this thread from a non-religious approach. But, I think I touched on it from a practical point of view under your last post. Once again, I don't think that this wealth you mention is a wealth that is translatable - I mean do you idolize gold Robes and prada shoes - nor do I imagine Pope Gregory enjoys any particular satisfaction from these. Despite all his wealth there is still something humbling in the sacrifice of it. I can't imagine anybody wanting the position - Those things you mention - they are what they are but what you see as flaunting is tradition, legacy, and heritage.
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@kevinatserieatalk... You sound very defendant and outspoken of the issue
but I too and many others are now asking that question that scheduledoctor also asked.
Also the prophesy talks in detail about the world churches destruction
via the coming of the Son of God yet a good number of believers seem to except all this wealth.
It may be older than all governments but that doesn't necessarily mean it will last forever,
neither does that mean that it's a good thing.
Whatever happens I will be watching to see it play out that's for sure.-
The church has actually been very progressive. It has accepted those scientific truths that were once heretical – among those positions are Evolution and the big bang.
One thing I have appreciated about the Catholic faith is that biblical interpretation belongs to you. If you choose to believe that Adam and Eve were literally real then that is your right. But, I am also permitted my belief that these this was a metaphoric story rather than literal and that too is permitted and valid in the church. -
I'm not following you, whose prophesy and where do we get the terminology of "world churches" ?
I mention the longevity of the faith community simply because this wealth of fiat money, as explained by Goodman, didn't happen overnight.
What is being questioned for monetary value here is held for public examination, it has a mystical and artistic appreciation attached and frankly shouldn't fall into private hands only to be hidden away from study and public access.
Finally, longevity is also testament to the claim of First Christianity. Many times doubters are instructed in a sort of revisionism of history and use catch phrases like, "the Church isn't a building". By extension we can expand that reasoning to the Church isn't a picture or cross, or mosaic. However, I would argue that it is, simply because these relics are historical evidence of a faith in action through the centuries. It is proof of Christian communities practicing from generation to generation and therefore these are physical remnants of the living stones of the Church, her people.
In other words, why is it okay for secular communities under civil authority to pay for and maintain museums but not okay for a religious authority?
Does that make more sense to you?
addendum: study Catholic Church architecture sometime you'll discover a visual Christian gospel story missing in much of non-Catholic Christianity because of the marginalization of Tradition and revisionism I eluded to above in terminology and indoctrination.
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Does that make more sense to you?
No none of it makes any sense to me and quite a few other people who question it.
However, I realize that others will have their own view.
Also I personally don't care to debate religion either as it's a no win situation in views, I went off kilter there for a moment and I don't want it to go off kilter and then all hell breaks loose in this discussion, so I will just leave it as that but my eyes are open and I will be watching to see all this Pomp play out.-
No worries we aren't debating religion as I haven't read any doctrinal statements in this thread at all.
What we've been talking about is protocol and principles and perhaps archeology if someone was to start to define the value of Christian sacred art and artifacts under the microscope.
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@kevinatserieatalk....I have no problem with any Churches art and artifacts as they belong to the Church.
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Well I have to admit I am very please to see this thread still going strong without insults.
Nice going everyone, I am glad to see you discuss your beliefs and concerns without this discussion heating up into a brawl.
Thank you everyone for supplying any facts you see fit
and any concerns you may have, this is the correct way to have a decent discussion.
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