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The Western Burqa
Posted by Epicharis • 7/18/09 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: shamelessness, the western burqa
I've just written a new post about the burqa and women's choice:
epicharis.wordpress.com/2009/07/18/the-western-burqa/
Hopefully some of you will find it interesting...or surprising?
User Comments
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Is this about cosmetics?-
nope...well...not really...it's not about make-up
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- I skim read the post and will read in depth & comment after I eat. Please edit in tags in the OP. We can't find threads in the Discussion searchbox later without them.
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That alright?
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lol ... not really the title is already a tag
The post is tagged on your site as:
Body Hair, Burqa, Feminism, Hair, Hijab, Islam, Men, Shaving, Society, Women -
yeah, but I kind of wanted people to read the post without knowing what I had to say first.
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"Many of the women who have chosen to wear the burqa (or any form of the hijab) say that it is to prevent themselves from tempting men. I heard one young Muslim woman use the analogy of moths being attracted to a flame – by wearing a hijab she was protecting men from themselves."
somebody thinks highly of themselves. o_0-
The idea is that men are tempted by flesh, not that she's drop-dead gorgeous.
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I'm being facetious.
maybe if she let her 'stash grow... -
stop being gnaughty...
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gno! gnever!
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But the problem is not that women are attractive, but rather that the men have poor self-control.
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The issue of woman's body hair was a big one for my generation. Many women chose to challenge the conventions and stopped shaving their legs and armpits. Others chose to cut their hair short and even go bald, seeing long hair as a symbol of societal oppression. I live in a small town with very progressive ideas, where there is a great deal of support for so-called alternative lifestyles. Women here feel quite comfortable walking hand in hand in the street and hugging one another. I know some of the women who moved away and found themselves in more conventional settings and jobs did feel the need to capitulate to social pressures. I believe one always has a choice, no matter how fiercely conformist values oppose it, but for many people the choice to deviate just entails too great a sacrifice. -
I have left a comment. Please don't confuse the Burkha with the Hijab. Lots to say on this.-
I wasn't confusing them, I know the difference but the purpose of both is the same.
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Not at all the same - it depends who you are
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with relation to Islam, they are the same. Obviously, anyone can wear a headscarf, but hijabis are usually Muslim, wearing a covering for modesty. A burqa is a type of hijab.
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I know that but the cultural significance stretches further than Islam.
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My post is discussing the Islamic tradition and the Islamic understanding of the term 'hijab'. Wearing headscarves is not what I was talking about. Though neither of these was the real focus of my post.
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Didn't mention head scarves...your post talks alot about body hair too!
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yeah, that was kind of the point of my post...
*sigh*
I give up
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Excellent article--just left you a comment.-
thanks, Melinda
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- I believe your post has more to do with removal of body hair than it has to do with women wearing full length Burkhas.
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yes, I know. That's my point. I'm comparing the the attitude towards burqas with the attitude towards female body hair.
Nevermind. -
- Oh I get it - I just don't buy it. A Burka is not a Hijab. The women I know who wear Hijabs wear them because they want to.
On this we agree: You can choose to follow a social convention, but you should also have the option to disregard the convention if you want to.
On this we disagree: With regards to women removing their body hair I don’t think we do have that choice without encountering fierce opposition.
Fierce opposition? From whom? ... lol
I remove body hair because I want to and when I want to. Sometimes I don't remove it for months on end. My husband could care less whether or not I remove it. -
A burqa is a type of hijab, and it's still not the point.
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re: your edit
I responded to that comment on my blogpost. -
I think (*pokes hornet's nest with a stick*) that the issue of hair removal is a bit more of a ridiclule thing between women, whereas the burqa is an expectation of both sexes.
While there may be a certain expectation amongst couples, on a casual basis--unless a guy is perhaps attracted to a girl--he isn't going to notice, or care much. At least that's my perspective. *shrugs* -
You wouldn't notice if a woman had hairy underarms and hairy legs? Well, that's grand, but I imagine most men would notice, and wouldn't especially like it. I think the idea of it being something women enforce on other women has merit, but much of the competitive bullying between women is about perceived attractiveness where men are concerned.
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Here's how guys TEND to be. Glance at face; if hot, cute, etc check out body; if she's hairy, that's weird, but at least she's cute.
I know, guys are pigs
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Women aren't much better...
I'm going to go and live with some animals in a forest somewhere...I just don't like people...
Shall I go with wolves or gorillas? Elephants would be good, but not enough shade for me, generally. -
then, some guys are really into the body hair...
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yeah, some people are really into body hair...
I wish I was religious...then I could become a hermit... -
you could start a begging blog for laser hair removal. I'll send a pic of my shoulders. You'll cash in!
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yeesh! I don't like this plan at all...I'm going to go live with the squirrels (we don't have any bears or wolves anymore)
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just pointing out that guys can deal with this too. I wear a tanktop, and i look like an orangatun
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You are an excellent writer. I did have the correct idea of what a Burka was but I thought a hijab was the headscarf only.
P.S. I left you another comment. -
If you are talking to me, thanks very much!
If not...well, that was embarrassing!
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en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_types_of_sartorial_hijab
Because some people seem to be confused about what a hijab is. -
OK, interesting post. First of all - every society puts constraints on the people within it - that includes matters of personal hygiene and outward appearance and for both sexes. We are partially products of our environment, and just as a particular fashion, behavior, or hygeine practice is considered desirable - so too are practices opposite that in other cultures. And, those traits considered desirable can change over time.
This is also true in the animal kindgom - male peacocks with the largest plumes attracts the females - male lions with the biggest....chutzpah attracts the female lions for reproduction - human males with the nicest hair free chests gets the girls.
While I do like some hair on men, and don;t mind some hair on women - I will make the argument that some body hair is absolutely unhygenic and I would prefer to see it removed or properly tamed on both genders.
Underarm hair traps and keeps the toxins from the body that are released through the sweat glands. Nasssty. Public hairs can also trap a lot of bacteria through urnination, defication, copulation, sweating and other bodily functions. When that bacteria is trapped and you decide to have sex - you just got yourself a nice little urinary tract infection or worse. Shave it or tame it.
Leg hair is fine, though. (I prefer to shave in the summer because it really is cooler, and I do not shave in winter because it's painful to, and it keeps me warmer )
Also - hairlessness is an indication of youth, and youth is a natural indication of sexual prowess and fertility. It's a perfectly natural reaction for humans to be attracted to that which will net the darwinistic ideal of reproductive needs. Hairlessness, muscular, large hips, breasts, and penises are all phsyical indictaions of a proper mate, and intelligence and financial status (as well as size for men) are all psychological indications of the person who can best provide and protect said offspring.
In other words, it's all perfectly natural, and only exaggerated by societal ideologies.
I also think that claiming to know why people do or do not engage in any particular activity or style is painting people with a bit of a broad brush.
And I know plenty of lesbians who prefer woman to be shaved and/or tamed with regards to body hair. And I would like to add that men deal with just as much pressure from women on what they're expected to be and look like. It' snot just a feminine issue, it's a human issue.
How many male superstars have you seen in romantic leading roles who were fat and hairy? I've not seen it except in comedy - and they aint the hearthrob magazine's next cover I'll tell you that much. The Brad Pitts and George CLooneys, and Matthew McCoughneheys (sp?) and Vin Deisals are what men are expected to look like. Talk about tough!-
You make an interesting argument...but I disagree. Obviously I don't know the reason why every individual woman grooms herself in a particular way, but I was theorising on why it is the norm in our society, and I still don't think that hygiene is the issue. Presumably you also expect men to remove their underarm hair because it is nasty and unhygienic? and if not, why not? Underarm hair actually serves the purpose of drawing sweat and toxins away from the skin, preventing them from being reabsorbed and actually reduces bacterial growth and therefore, bad odour. So long as people wash regularly and apply the same deodorants they should not be any nastier than the person who removes their underarm hair. It has also been suggested (though I don't follow oncology journals, nor would I understand them) that the relatively recent fashion for all women to remove their underarm hair has had some effect on breast cancer rates as the toxins that should have been drawn away from the skin by hair are being reabsorbed. I don't know if a proper study has been done on that, but I do know it has been suggested. As for pubic hair, you are certainly right that the potential for unpleasant things to be caught in it is high, but as with underarm hair, basic levels of hygiene will prevent that happening. I don't understand why there is a perceived correlation between the amount of hair you remove and how often you wash?
As for men being expected to look like Brad Pitt, I agree that there is some level of expectation, but women are expected to look like Angelina Jolie, so they cancel each other out with the body shape argument. Men are not expected to remove their body hair, while women are, and while a lot of the pin-ups might have fairless chests, it's not an expectation of men as you'll often see men with hairy chests in films when they aren't playing grotesques.
The idea that it's natural for women to remove their body hair is bizarre... comparing it to a bird's plumage is not really accurate. A peacock's feathers are something genetic...the peacock is not painting his feathers, or plucking certain areas of its body. It's an entirely different thing.
As for lesbians liking hair-free women, you are totally right that many do. But many are aware that it is a learnt preference based on masculine desires. I'm a member of a lesbian forum and I've seen dozens of women say that they like hair-free women, and acknowledge that if that had not been the way women had been presented in public, they probably wouldn't. And it is true that many lesbians don't mind or actually prefer women with body hair. -
I'd be curious to know if the increasing use and strength of antiperspirant over the past decades wasn't more linked with increased breast cancer than shaving. It seems to me that if the toxins can't get out of the body in the first place the presence of hair or lack thereof won't make much of a difference.
It seems that chest hair is becoming less and less acceptable in the media. Remember when Sean Connery was the hottest thing going? Pearce Brosnan is hot and has a very hairy chest but it wasn't shown much (wet, dark hair over light skin doesn't look so sexy at 12 feet tall) and Daniel Craig is not but has had every stray hair removed from those gym-toned pects so that they glisten in the obligatory, soaking-wet Bond shot every time. When was the last time you saw a hairy-chested male model (unless he was wearing a shirt)?
I'm with Anok - I shave when and what parts I choose, and hubby has never expressed a preference for either condition. Pits and legs generally get shaved more in the summer as that's more comfortable. I know that there are women who subject themselves to waxing and laser hair removal, but I'd suggest that if you're weak enough to let people convince you to undergo that sort of torture and expense then your issues are not limited to body hair. -
I know that there have been studies to do with antiperspirant deodorants and breast cancer, but they seem to imply that there is not much of a link. Those studies have been criticised for having no control group, though.
Also, my point is not that someone is standing over you saying "Shave your legs" while you comply...my point is that women feel the need to remove their body hair in the first place, while men do not. And I think it's an expectation within our society that women do it. -
I would love it if men shaved their under arm hair.
Mind you - not everyone has the same amount of hair as others - a little bit is fine, but if you look like you've got squirrels in a headlock you're doing nothing but trapping all of that nasty bacteria in the second warmest place on your body. Your genitals would be the warmest place - and both places have enough hair on most people so that the bacteria that is being whisked away from the body is simply sitting there festering.
It's disgusting. (You'd have to shower three times a day, live in an area that never makes you sweat, or never do any physical activity in order to downplay the bacteria sitting there in the hair).
And, hair on men is only socially acceptable on the legs, arms, and for some, under the arms, and the face (again for some) And a reasonable amount or a similar amount around the genitalia as women. Men who have hairy chests and backs are expected to shave or wax it. Men who have hair in their noses and ears or bushy eyebrows are expected to tame those wild beasts.
My husband hates having hair on him, but it's socially UNacceptable for men to shave their legs and arms/underarms. So he's uncomfortable because he doesn't want to be that much of an outcast.
I don't shave my legs for men's pleasure nor for society's pleasure. I shave because quite frankly I hate having hair on my legs. In the winter when I'm always bundled up and can't feel it, it's fine. But in the summer when it's hot it's itchy, and getting a massage is like an animal being patted against the grain of their fur - it hurts. I hate getting hairs caught in things (be it boots, or zippers from pants or whathave you) and it's just not comfy. I hate it as much as I hate nylons
Edit: shaving has nothing to do with increased cancer - antiperspirant does. -
Apparently we live in very different worlds. Who knew that America was that different from the UK? Men here are certainly not expected to remove chest or back hair, it's just a normal thing for men to have.
I still think that your ideas about the hygiene level of body hair are exagrrated. The fact is that the bacteria and sweat is still present in that area of the body without the hair, but with underarm hair it is drawn away from the skin and rather than being increased by this process it is the same amount of sweat, and less bacteria. It it may still be sitting there on the hair, but without the hair it would be sitting there on your skin, where it is warmer. But I accept that that's something personal to you. I don't think that everyone would prefer men to remove their body hair in the same way that they want women to.
My point, however, is about choice. The restriction that your husband is experiencing is similar to the restriction that many women feel. Your husband could shave his legs and walk around in shorts and he would feel an outcast (apparently) or he could do it and always keep his legs under wraps. He should have the option not to feel oppressed that way, and so should women.
I think your position is rare (though the fact that you assume hair is dirty, when in fact its purpose is to make you cleaner seems to indicate a common misconception about the nature of our bodies) and the vast majority do feel social pressure relating to how they are to groom themselves.
As for cancer, are you an oncologist or do you have access to studies that aren't generally available? -
@Anok
Quick answer! Which is worse, pit hair or money?
@Epicharis
Chest hair tends to be pretty acceptable. Some Americans though, those of us with some mediterranean heritage, particularly, tend to grow hair on shoulders, back etc. tend to get funny looks, comments, etc from friends, acquaintances, heckling strangers, etc. Though I generally just wear a shirt anyway, cause i tend to burn easily due to my brithonic heritage. -
For me it is all about hygiene. More than just sweat gets trapped in those hairs - and there is a lot of bacteria (Particularly in the nether regions) that would be properly cleaned every time you go to the toilet save for the hair that makes cleaning less effective.
Of course, being dirty is fine, but expecting others to get intimate or cozy with said dirtiness is a bit unreasonable. And that, aside from comfort, is why a lot of people shave. it's nasty, it's dirty, and it stinks. Hair traps all of that.
And no, I'm not an oncologist, however I remember the "ground breaking" yet ineffective studies releasing the data about the aluminum in anti-persperants being absorbed through the skin as a possible cause of breast cancer.
The toxins you release through sweat are not far enough away from your body whether you shave or not to cause a difference in cancer causation (with regards to shaving). -
I've found this discussion really odd because I don't think I've ever seen you respond purely from an emotional stand-point ignoring the facts before. It's almost like you have decided that body hair is dirty and gross and any evidence or information to the contrary is irrelevant.
I've already explained that underarm serves to decrease bacterial growth, and that any sweat or smell that you think would be trapped by hair, would still be produced and would just be on the skin (where the warmth would increase the bacterial growth rate and therefore the smell). So unless you are washing your skin several times a day and the person with underarm hair isn't, the lack of hair will make you dirtier and smellier.
As for pubic hair, your point carries slightly more weight, but not much more. A person is only going to be dirty if they don't clean themselves properly, it is not a direct correlation between amount of hair and amount of dirt. The idea that pubic hair=infections is just weird.
The fact that you refuse to accept either of these points leads me to think that your position does not come from logic, but from a conditioned response. -
Siuil - the main function of body hair is to protect the human from temperature and bacteria. In order to protect a person from bacteria the hair traps the bacteria, preventing it from entering into the various orifices (that is the sole purpose of pubic and facial hair).
Hair traps and keeps bacteria in it. Because we no longer live in caves and have the ability to wear protective clothing the only bacteria the hair is trapping now is the stuff coming from your body. And there is sits festering until you get to your next shower.
Underarm hair prevents anti-persperant from doing anything more that providing a pretty smell, as it limits the contact with the skin. WHen you use anti-persperant you do not perspire and the hair does not "wick the toxins away". The toxins remain on your skin just as much as it's in the hair - only instead of being prevented by anti-persperant, or being quickly evaporated off of clean, smooth skin, it remains wet in the under arm hair - where bacteria festers. Under you arms.
Unless you're using baby wipes, showering, or using a bodea (sp?) everytime you go to the bathroom - you are not cleaning yourself properly. If you have a lot of hair - which I di in the winter so yes I can compare - the amount of bacteria increases tenfold and it sits there trappe din the hair until your next shower. Cleaning yourself when there is minimal or no hair ensures that you are getting everything and not trapping bacteria in the hair for later.
Otherwise known as dingleberries.
That is disgusting.
Sorry Siuil but your "facts" are not in fact factual at all. There is as much a hygenic reason for shaving and/or trimming your body hair as there is for brushing your teeth and tongue, or getting circumsized.
It's easier to keep clean, the toxins from the sweat evaoprate faster, and you remain cleaner.
And yes - when your genitalia is surrounded by bacteria trapped in the hair, and you have sexual intercourse, you introduce the bacteria by pushing the long bacteria laden hairs into the vagina and urinary tract which causes a vast amount of urniary, bladder, and yeast infections for women. That's what causes that. -
I'm really really surprised by you right now Anok. You're saying that my facts aren't factual when you are really just making things up. Do you have any evidence for what you are saying at all? One glaringly obvious mistake you are making is that the only purpose of pubic hair is to trap dirt when it is also (and possibly primarily) for pheromones. Provide me with some evidence, because you just sound like you are making things up.
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You're actually reminding me of the way theists debate...you've got your conclusion already and you're just finding ways to make it true.
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You've not presented any more evidence of your facts here than Anok has, outside the reference to a study about armpit hair and breast cancer that you already noted was flawed. I don't know that either position has been studied in detail, but the two of you should perhaps find that out and throw links at each other instead of these posts, as you're the pot calling the kettle black at this point.
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The point is that I haven't been making claims except for things that are basic wikipedia-checkable. I grant Anok the basic idea that hair might trap more dirt, but talking about infections and reduced leve of antiperspirant effectiveness requires some evidence.
My comparing Anok to a theist is because she keeps changing her 'evidence' to suit her argument.
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i just ammused myself thinking how Sarkozy's nation isn't exactly known for their shaven pits.
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That's an American stereotype that doesn't seem to be prevalent in Europe.
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Well...I shave. I also cover my head in an environment where it seems appropriate to. I like feeling comfortable. Don't think I would get my breasts out in some of the communities I have visited in Southern Africa. But there you are. My personal choice. I am lucky to be able to exercise that.
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I just left you a long comment on your blog. I thought your article was thought provoking and well written.
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Thank you. I responded on my blog.
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It's pretty obvious there's a double standard here. Women of course have the choice not to shave, but it's a tough choice, as if a man were to choose to wear a dress or lipstick in public. As I stated earlier many women I know do not shave and have had no difficulty finding love and fulfillment in their lives, while others found it stood in their way. It all does seem pretty ridiculous, and one scratches one's head and wonders where all these absurd conventions and expectations come from.
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I definitely agree with you.
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@nothingpround
As I stated earlier many women I know do not shave and have had no difficulty finding love and fulfillment in their lives, while others found it stood in their way.
- Yes, there is a double standard. I fall into the category of women who has found no difficulty in finding love and fulfillment whether or not I choose to remove body hair. My husband and I chose to move to a community where the pressure to remove body hair doesn't exist.
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@Epicharis
- Controversy creates increased interest so I matched your insult with one of my own thereby increasing your comment count ... lol ...
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ok...I said you were being disingenuous because you implied that your experience was representative, even though you later said that you lived in a very unusual place. I don't think that's an insult.
You may find your comment and your intention entertaining or acceptable but I really don't. If you don't mean it, don't say it. -
- I'm still not clear about what part of what I said that you think I didn't mean. There was no implication that my experience is representative of anyone other than the women of the 70's like myself, who chose to move out of cities and relocate in communities where this pressure does not exist.
Hence my comment above reflects my reality:
"Fierce opposition? From whom? ... lol
I remove body hair because I want to and when I want to. Sometimes I don't remove it for months on end. My husband could care less whether or not I remove it.
The side benefit of moving to such communities during the late 70's is that we were no longer exposed to the continual stream of nose-in-the-air feminist b*tchin that apparently still exists elsewhere. -
Ok, you're in one of your moods so I'm not going to bother.
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- That's okay with me too. I'm not out to change the world. I heard the feminist rag, day in and day out from the time I was 12 - 19, and I chose to leave it behind me by moving to a community where such matters aren't at issue. I'm into harvesting some vegetables from my container garden and dehydrating them today. Best wishes with the Shameless Blog Promotion.
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Im a big a fan of laser removal, shaving and so on... Personally I feel the less body hair the better. However I respect if women choose not shave or remove theyre body hair in any way. The important thing is that we as women have the choice and in no way should we be criticized if we choose either way.-
It's expensive though but
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hi, I read through that I left a pretty hefty comment...I THINK I'm agreeing with you....I'm not entirely sure. -
It all depends on what you think of the other (main) issue I raised.
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If I ever happen to hit the lottery (especially a big one) I will be sure to wear a big black burka. I don't need everyone to have me on camera (hey here's the lady who won all that money)
No Thank You. Suddenly the burka is looking more and more interesting to me -
I do find women looking fascinating wearing these things. But then again that is on the easthetic point of view. There are lots of things involved here than 'looking good'.
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