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This doesn't seem right at all...
Posted by Anok • 8/07/09 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: puppies adoption
OK, I have to run this scenario by you brainy fiends here on the BC. Let me bounce this off of you and see what you think.
The backstory: We are aiming to adopt a dog, a specific breed if we can. We found someone with that breed, in our area, who has puppies up for adoption. AWESOME! (We use local petfinder websites and rescue websites to find animals to adopt - NOT classified ads!)
Well...
Here's the deal:
The ad stated that the price was $0.00. The description made no mention of any fees whatsoever. AT the time, I didn't notice the wording of the description, which indicates that they might have 7-8 pups, and they may have 5 females, 4 males. (I'm going to give my theory down below)
We started correspondence, by stating who we are, why we'd like to adopt, our qualifications to adopt, and some basic questions. (Shots? etc) and expressed interest. With complete contact info from us.
We get an e mail back stating OK, there's 6 left, possibly one male.
I e mail back, again with my phone number asking her to call, and when we can set up an appointment for the adoption. I also asked if they needed us to bring anything. (For the adoption).
I'm told anytime we want - and I get a question "What do you mean what do you need to bring?"
I e mail back - again with MY contact info (they have not been so forthwith) asking if Thursday would be a good day, and clarified my statement with this and examples - what should we bring for the adoption process? (paperwork, ID, references)
I get a message back - no, that's no good we will be gone all weekend.
How about Monday?
Yes that's fine. We canceled our trip, but we're still not going to be available.
Then I get an e mail stating that they may have 4 pups left, possibly one male - oh, and I'm charging $300.
At this point I was PISSED.
My thoughts
How is it that they have all these puppies, but don't know exactly how many they have, or what gender?
Why is it that they were listed for $0.00, and no mention of price or fees were ever made until late tonight?
How is it that they had no time to meet with possible adoptive humans, but had time to adopt out almost 4 puppies from the beginning of our correspondence when they are supposedly not home? (And how is it that they're not sure exactly how many puppies were adopted out?)
How is it that they did not understand that adoptions often have requirements and people need to bring certain things in, such as ID's and references?
How is it that when asked that question, they didn't opt to tell me what form of payment they accept? (Cash? Credit? Check? Money order?)
Why did they refuse to give out contact info, and refuse to call us on the phone - we're 15 minutes away, it would seem to be easier that way.
Anyone else see red flags here? What could possibly be going on?
User Comments
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Puppy mill connections?
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I dunno...
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It's all very weird. Here all prospective adopting folks are registered. The forms are lengthy and every aspect is covered. Then the people are checked out first. They contact our vets to find out if we have been good owners. They also contact the executive members of dog groups we have been members of. In some cases they come and check out your home to see if you have suitable fencing and accommodations. In a couple of cases I know of they even asked the neighbors how the people treated their previous pets.
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We have a similar thing here - some people whose pets accidentally bred before being spayed/neutered though don't follow such strict standards.
They also rarely charge for anything more than shots and vet's fees.
I haven't been able to see the area where the dogs are kept, and since I noted to the "breeder" that I have experience in dog training, and asked specifically about the adoption process, I have been routinely blown off. Perhaps there is something to that? -
Oh yeah, I think you are dealing with a questionable person here. If so then stating you have dogtraining experience would produce this kind of reaction.
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The question, though, is how to go about reporting this? Because I'm pretty sure it's against state laws. (And I DO suspect a puppy mill, or a bad amateur breeder at best).
I have the general whereabouts of this place - which is a home - but not specific address, name, or phone number. -
As you are in another country I don't have the answer for you. Here I know exactly who to call at the SPCA.
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*grumble grumble*
I think I might call animal control first. -
I'm not sure which state you live in, but in Illinois we have a state official to whom such things can be reported--he's a vet, and I spoke with him years ago about a local pet shop with excellent results. I can't remember what his position was called, but try your official state government website, or PM me what state you're in and I will find out whether there is a parallel agency there. -
Thanks, Tiffany - I will in a moment. I contacted the local animal rescue center, and am waiting their reply as well.
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I see a flag so red - that my last email to them would be: Oh - sorry - your ad said for free. We'll let the newspaper/circular know that you're changing your prices - so you don't have to.
Thanks very kindly. Have a good day.
LOL!-
Oh I sent back an e mail alright - but no where near that nice. We had been prepared to pick up one of the puppies this weekend (Monday is included in our 'weekend as weird as that may be
), and Punky was terribly excited. We also spent over $100 on dog supplies today in preparation for the new arrival.
Punky was in absolute tears when we got the last e mail - and we realized that we had been lied to about this.
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What kind of dog is it? Maybe you can bring in a stand in dog, sort of like the stand-in-cat scenario from Meet the Parents.
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LOL! I don't think so
But Punky does have a robotic dog, from "Santa" last Christmas because we couldn't get a real dog at that point in time. It still didn't work -
Serious, just shave it down and say it's a poodle.
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RUN! -
Seriously - I think you should notify wherever the newspaper or ad was placed.
That's called bait and switch.
And it's illegal.
I'd also call your local SPCA - or Animal control - as just an aside.
For them to say FREE - enter in negotiation - then quote a price - is very not good.
Not to mention - they probably ARE running a puppy mill.
Sounds like they know what they are doing is illegal too - they might be SNATCHING dogs - and selling them as well.
So - ya never know.-
Or they're "adopting" dogs from other amateur breeders and selling them for a profit, which means that they certainly aren't going to be taking care of the poor things.
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That whole thing smells like fish Anok. I would definitely try to contact animal control, at least they can check them out. Publishing an add that says $0.00 for a puppy and then trying to charge you? Not nice! You can even sue them for that and you would win given the proof from the newspaper. -
You're a ninja. I'm sure you can get one of them for free...-
I don't mind paying a fee or price for a dog - licensing, shots etc are all costly. I just would have liked to know upfront exactly how much they planned on charging so we could find out if it was in our price range.
Stating it's for free, and then complaining that the food is expensive and that I could have asked them is a f*(cking cop out. Why would I ask what the price is if you've listed the price as $0!!!!!!
ARGH!
Punky was in tears all damn day after that - after we got back from the pet store with the leash and bed and dishes for our new puppy.
What f^&%&(ing b*^tch.
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I just got another email. Holy Hell I am PISSED!
I got called suspicious for calling them out about listing the puppies for free than asking for hundreds of dollars. I have already contacted an animal rescue center. Hopefully I'll get word back.
I also contacted the listing site labeled as a fraud or possible puppy mill.-
Good Anok! If they are not doing anything illegal they will have nothing to worry about. But it seems like they are suspicious of your suspicions, I tell ya' fishyyyy!
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Exactly. I mean, what is suspicious about a family wanting to adopt a dog, and asking if they need extra paperwork, contact info, references etc to complete the adoption?
How is that suspicious? -
Good for you Anok. Like Deray I think you made all the right moves.
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Yes, to me is rather rational and should be expected from a professional breeder. Like you said, they either have a puppy mill or are very amateur. Either way I hope they get checked out by the proper authorities. It was really sad when they found the puppy mill in Tucson, last year, they had hundreds of animals in horrible conditions.
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Were you looking on Craigslist, because I believe this is fairly common, although deceptive, practice on there. If it's too good to be true, it usually is.
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Good for you Anok for possibly putting a stop to them. It really sounds like they are up to no good. It also sounds as others have stated, that they have puppymill connections. -
Trail, no it wasn't craig's list, it was actually a reputable pet listing site
But no worries, they have an excellent way to report suspicious ads.
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This sounds like a backyard breeder. Horrible. Don't walk, run!-
YOU aint lyin' their "story" just get's better an better. Now their claiming they have purebreds, but oh - no papers to prove it.... *yeah right*
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Puppy mill or stoners... or both
I say brick their picture window!-
You have no idea....
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stay away... or you'll end up with a mut-
Muts I don't mind - don't care about that. but I don't want to support anything illegitimate.
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Let me get this straight. They aren't even sure how many or what sex they are, but they've sure zeroed in on a price, haven't they?
I just hope all of those dogs wind up in a better place than what their current surroundings must be.-
I'm with you on that.
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KDAWG!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
♥
Yeah, I found that odd too. The backpeddling when I confronted them with that was "well, people have been looking at the pups, you know...so we weren't sure...oh, and we now have another male puppy...."
Uh-huh. sure you do. Where did that extra pup come from? Santa?
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I used to breed dogs when I lived in California. There are certain things a breeder knows for sure:
1) how many puppies s/he has
2) the gender of the puppies
4) the age of the puppies.
You are probably dealing with a puppy broker. Brokers get puppies from puppy mills. Because a broker deals with multiple puppy mills, a broker may well not know exactly how many puppies are available or their genders or even their ages. And this is why they are not cooperating with you coming to see the puppies...there aren't any on site. They take an "order" from you, contact the puppy mill that can fill the "order," and then they collect the pup.
A reputable breeder will know number of pups, gender, and age of the puppies. The breeder will be willing to show the puppies with their mother (although a appointment is reasonable...I had to bathe and dry 12 Collie puppies every time someone wanted to see my pups!). A reputable breeder will be up front about the fees, the pup will have had a vet check and first shots, and will not let a puppy go from its mother before the age of 8 weeks (12 is recommended by the AKC, but I think that's too old...8-10 is optimal).
Anok, I successfully bred AKC Collies in California and am gearing up to start a Yorkie breeding operation here in South Africa. I am fairly knowledgeable about ethical behaviour in dog breeders. No ethical breeder would behave in this way and the red flags you have brought up are indicative of a puppy broker. DO NOT PURCHASE A PUPPY from a broker...and please report these people to the authorities and anyone else who can put them out of business.
Shout me for my email address if you want to discuss this in greater detail.-
Yes I would like that, thanks.
She's now claiming the pups are 14 weeks old, but the add is only 4 weeks old. My understanding is that breeders (Although she now claims it was just an accidental litter - but if she isn't a breeder, why aren't her dogs spayed/neutered?) they have all of their paper work in order, and typically have the pups "sold" before they're even weened - when the pups are of age, then the buyers come pick them up. -
You are correct. We viewed Puddin's litter when she was only 3 weeks old. One pup was already spoken for and we put a deposit on Puddin the day we saw her. There were 7 pups and by the time they were 6 weeks old (the going home time here in SA), all 7 were sold.
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Hum Adopt for a fee wink!wink! sounds like a bait and switch and very dodgy. I agree with the others, report them! -
There are plenty of free dogs at the animal shelter that would love a good home without having to breed any more.-
Anok wants a specific breed of dog and apparently it is not commonly available among dog breeders...which means she is unlikely to find it at a shelter.
We have numerous private animal rescue operations in addition to the SPCA where I live. Four years ago I put my name in to several of them for a Yorkie. I told them I would take a sick, abandoned, injured, old, or even temperamental Yorkie, but it had to be a Yorkie (I have allergies and the breeds of dogs I can have are very limited).
In the past five years I have rescued four other dogs, one of them a very difficult dog who took two years to socialize. But no Yorkie ever came available in all that time (and I live in a metropolitan area of more than 5 million people).
So I bought a Yorkie and I am preparing to buy another one. Sometimes the shelter is not a viable option. -
Actually, we found TWO!!!! By sheer luck or divine intervention - I don't care. We are waiting for word about the temperament of one of them - a 10 months old who may have been abused (which would be problematic due to the general temperament and training of this breed) and a much older 10 year old, who had to be given up by her owner due to foreclosure
We might be able to see the older dog tomorrow. I'm very excited! (And already prepared ;P )
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I think people are right and this is a "Puppy mill" and I should know as I have only recently escaped from an Aardvark mill.
It was like a hell on earth the doctors say my ovaries are the size of tennis balls and they will never be the same.
I wouldn't mind but I only nipped in 5 years ago to ask them to keep the noise down.-
Poor aardvark - mills are terrible places!
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that does explain the avatar pic...
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Anok--not much to add here except that when I was reading your post, the first thing I thought of was a puppy mill situation.
I think they had the 0 price puppies and got rid of all of them--and then knowing you wanted one, bought one for a hundred dollars and are now charging you.
It does seem *very* suspicious to me.-
Believe me, this is a puppy broker.
Brokers sell puppy mill puppies. That is how a mill in Missouri (the worst state for puppy mills) sells puppies to pet shops in California, Florida, and individuals in New England and the Southwest.
They simply have a list of puppy mills and the kinds of puppies each place breeds. They place ads on sites like Craigslist and in free small circulation papers. They don't have free puppies...they get you to call by advertising them that way, and if you challenge them, they will tell you that the free puppies are gone.
There are also frauds (often international) in which people offer to sell you registered puppies at ridiculously low prices, shipped to your town. Why people don't click to the fraud when they are asked to send money to Cameroon or Burkina Faso just baffles me.
Bottom line...don't fall for an ad if they can't answer basic questions clearly. No legitimate breeder doesn't know how many puppies s/he has or the gender of those puppies. No legitimate breeder who wants to sell puppies will refuse to set up an appointment to view the puppies.
To me, a price of $0.00 would have been a red flag...pups are supposed to have their first shot and worming at 6 weeks and it is illegal to sell pups before 8 weeks of age. That means the owner has money invested in the pups in the form of vet bills...legitimate breeders almost never give away their pups (I did a couple of time, but they were very, very special circumstances).
So, Anok's story just prickles with red flags, and what I smell here is a puppy broker, the evil creature who allows puppy mills to stay in business. -
That's so horrible, isn't it? People disappoint me so much of the time--it's a good thing that enough other people inspire me!
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And what's even more sad - is that we outright confronted these people (prompted by some hang up phone calls strangely after our last e mail) and they're either not brokers, but completely incompetent pet owners, or are brokers and are trying to wiggle out of this.
*UGH* -
brick! Brick! BRICK!
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What if I throw their garden gnome?
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Whatever provides that sense of justice : ]
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Could you imagine that? Having a garden gnome go through your window with a note saying: STOP torturing puppies!!!
*giggle*
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That's awesome! can totally picture it
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I'd throw it back with a note saying "Torturing puppies, STOP!"
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like with a telegram?
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OK, we have run the scenario by the local animal control - and she said we should call the state animal control and gave us the appropriate number. I spoke briefly with them, and have been referred to the local ACO in that town.
The drama has continued on and on, and the story has gotten stranger and stranger. SV has helped me looking at a small portion of the correspondence (Just the parts that started raising red flags for me) and we've had more correspondence since then.
I have a hard time believing that anyone is that much of a moron to not be able to understand basic laws and licensing and sales. What has made me even more suspicious is the avoidance of specific questions regarding the puppies, a consistently inconsistent amount of information on their age, gender, and number. And the insistence tat I look at pictures before I see the puppies, and the refusal to look at pictures to be regarded as "suspicious" by the "breeder". (We live in the next town over, really, what's the point? I know what they look like already )
The ad was pulled within hours of my reporting it, which tells me that others have also filed complaints. I'm waiting to hear back from the local ACO as we speak.
Man, such drama this weekend!
Oh! And out old landlord who we had some legal battles with decided that she was above the law once again, and torched a building on her property even though she has already received a warning from the town not to do that.
*shakes head*-
Oh wow. Arson.
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Ahahahahaha
This woman is in BIG trouble! She is already in court for a variety of animal violations, and I just sent the e mails with information over to the proper people who will be using it to nail her to eth wall. I had only left a message with the general information, and the woman already knew who I was talking about - so many complaints against her have been filed they've lost count.
I'm tellin' ya - what is wrong with people?-
I loathe people like this woman. All I can think about is the dogs. What will happen to them? Will animal control seize them and adopt them out?
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Wow, that's just sick.
I didn't read the entire thread; did you find a suitable dog for Punky? -
They didn't know they were messing with a ninja, of course! Good job, Anok! -
TT - if they win in court, I would assume all animals will be removed from the premises. (She owns, apparently, a farm's worth of illegal animals).
They may have a hard time adopting them out, because it turns out they are NOT purebred, but rather a pitbull mix. I have nothing against pitbulls, but being raised with another aggressive breed of dog, in that environment, and you've got a problem.
Voodoo - YES! We found a cattledog/mix (Possibly a lab) that is in desperate need of adoption. We've already filed the paperwork, and will hear back tomorrow. She's 10 years old, and a real sweetheart of a dog.
Mom - hell yeah! I take animal breeding/cruelty very seriously and I knew something was not right with this woman. -
Awesome. 10 years is a bit old for a dog for a small child, though. I mean, if you take care of her she might live for a long time, but that's something I'd want to take into consideration. If she dies, Punky would probably be heartbroken.
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Yeah - that's the big problem we've been considering about her. However she still acts like she's 2, has no health problems at all, and is sooooo cute. (I'm a bleeding heart). She came from a really good home, and wil unfortunately put down if no one adopts her. SHe doesn't deserve that
(The cats we adopted are 14 - so you can see I'm a sucker ) -
Yeah, but you're a good-hearted sucker.
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This is true. More drama about the arson above, too.
Holy crap, did someone put crazy pills in the water or something?
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If it is a pit bull or any other bully breed most states do not allow free to good homes and require an adoption fee that must cover their shots, deworming, microchipping and first vets appointment (to get them into the system incase of fighting or attacks.. lame I know but MA, RI, PA, MD are like that, not sure where you are).Also it is unlawful to sell said breeds for high prices unless they have papers (to combat backyard breeding). It could be that they did not know, were later told and were unavailable due to multiple vet appointments. It could also be that their previous appontments ended up getting more than 1 dog.-
Nope - it's because their backyard breeding more than just dogs. AND they're breeding pitbull mixes WITHOUT licensing, paperwork, or registrations - and trying to pass them off as 14 weeks to sell them, when they're less than 8 weeks old.
These people are in serious trouble!
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I know it's been hell for you and your family but I am very glad they ran into you. Most people wouldn't follow through on reporting them and they'd just lie low and start again in a couple weeks. Good for you!!!-
I have a feeling that they will not be glad in a few days We've already received several prank calls - and the ACO is pretty sure it's from the people who ran the ad.
Apparently, they're nuts. Like, not stupid, or mean, or a little weird, but actually nuts. Greeeaaat....
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