Discussions
True Christianity
Posted by rencal • 5/13/09 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: christian, christianity
I have posted A definition of true Christianity at my blog
truthsintheword.blogspot.com/2009/05/true-christianity.html
It was written by JC Ryle in his book Holiness
I hope THIS is the appropriate place to promote my blog and to get feedback FROM CHRISTIANS.
User Comments
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Oh man oh man you slay me -
oh...guess I'm not wanted...I'm not A CHRISTIAN...-
I am and this guy cheeses me. "True Christianity"...come on. What a self-rightous, false speaking, know-nothing, know-it-all.
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Are you a CHRISTIAN though? you know, all-caps like?
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I don't know if I am all CAPS...
maybe I should check out this guy's blog... -
Do you know who Ryle was? If you are talking about me then that would be one persons opinion.
In my opinion many Christians today havent even studied their own faith to know where it came from and how it got to where it is tooooday -
I believe tradition is as important as scripture...that is where we differ. I also in no way agree with the quotation on your blog. All I have done my whole life is study Christianity and theology...
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Cookingasshole has the "feasting and drinking" part down pat
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damn right!
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I'm still unclear as to what kind of feedback you are looking for? -
Did I do something wrong again? I hope not. I am just sharing the post on my blog.
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I just want to know what exactly you are looking to gain. What feedback are you looking for?
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there are Christian groups on BC if you just want to hear from Christians...but as MadameX said below, stipulating who you want to have answer on the main board isn't going to go down well!
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This, as I'm sure you know, isn't the right place to get feedback "FROM CHRISTIANS". If you invite commentary in a public forum you know to be made up of people of all faiths and people of no recognized faith and people who are adamantly opposed to the concept of faith, you can and should expect "feedback" from people of all walks of life, not just the narrow slice you request. If you only want feedback from Christians, you should probably look for it in a Christian forum. -
I wonder if missionaries train on BlogCatalog before going door to door - this is probably the least fertile ground for religious conversion of any website.
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You know we have been thinking about instituting a trainging program; we think it might boost revenues substantially
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I am asking Christians what they think of my blog, the posts, if they agree, if they don't. Looking for discussion.
I don't mind when people disagree with me that is alright. I have said before each person has to be convinced in their own mind about God.
So the answer is I am looking for discussion on Christianity while promoting my blog.
I do not want to discuss the articles of faith with non-believers. Is that wrong?
I do believe that some things in life are black and white with NO grey area-
You'd have better luck if you tried a specifically Christian website than if you tried here. There are at least a couple, the last time I looked.
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There are many Christians who participate in these discussions, who probably share similar views to yours. If you're patient and wait, some of them will probably read your blog and contact you. -
Or try wording it this way next time:
I have posted a definition of what I believe to be Christianity on my blog. It was written by JC Ryle in his book Holiness. I am looking to get other Christian's views on the subject and feedback about my blog in general. The link is:
truthsintheword.blogspot.com/2009/05/true-christianity.html
Warning: Non-christian views will get my boxers in a bunch, so keep them to yourselves (please).
It's all in the wording.
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It's not wrong to want to discuss your faith with people who share the basic tenets of your belief system. It strikes me as outright bizarre to seek that out in a public forum made up of thousands of people, many of whom are the very people you've said you don't want to hear from.
Personally, I think that the blurb you posted is accurate but not at all instructive. Because of the "I'm a better Christian than you are" implication (from the author, not necessarily from you) and the 100% focus on why most people who call themselves Christians aren't good enough but zero help, inspiration, guidance, explanation or encouragement to grow in true Christianity, it seems more likely to put people on the defensive than to accomplish anything. -
If you don't want to discuss with non-believers, it has been made clear that there are Christian forums and groups on the site.
This being a public forum means that you are going to get people with varying backgrounds and beliefs joining your discussion. If you don't want that, please post a group discussion.
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TY MadameX You are right. I don't mind people that disagree but I have seen Christianity being put down on here from all sides. I don't come on here very often as I find that it is totally ok for people to put down Christians, Christianity and our faith. If Christians try to stand up for themselves then they become the ones who are breaking the TOS.
Maybe I just shouldn't have been asking Christians to comment but I felt they would be the ONLY ones that would want to look at the blog and comment. np-
I agree with you on that count, rencal. In my whole life, these forums are the only place where I've ever been actively insulted, attacked and dismissed simply because I am a Christian. The level of hostility is so extreme that I would definitely not be comfortable engaging in a discussion with this group in the flesh--the hatred that pours off of some at the mere mention of a Christian concept (or without such a mention, if they happen to remember that you're a Christian) is mind-boggling.
But to me, that makes it all the more surprising that you'd choose this forum for this discussion.
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Miss Suzie ty I guess I am a little upset over the last thread being locked I will calm down before typing anymore
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Don't worry about it. This does seem to be a sore subject to bring up around here.
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it was the fact that you wrote an argumentative OP in the other thread and in this one used all caps in a fairly aggressive way.
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MadameX I will take your words under consideration. I dont think it is as bizarre as you might think that I posted here but I won't post anymore.
I don't think Ryle thought he was a better Christian than others. I think the church today has gotten away from it's foundational truths-
Do you think, then, that he thinks that he is not a "true Christian" either? Because if he is saying that he is and others are not, I can't see any way to interpret that other than that he's a "better Christian".
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wrong spot
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MadameX,
I guess I wasn't aware of how bad it was here. I had seen it with some of the young guys but not minutes after I placed a post it started.
I guess I will have to work on some tact. Not much of that in this good ole boy from the Ottawa Valley.-
I'm a person of faith and I don't see BC as " bad". I get respect because I give it. It's a pretty good way to live, some might say "Christian" in a way
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No, Floormodel, you "get respect" because you haven't been around for very long. I have never criticized anyone for having different beliefs or been disrespectful to anyone based on differing beliefs--but I've been attacked in these forums many times, and so have many others...to the point that for a time religious discussion was banned on these boards because of the level of hostility those threads generated. You're fortunate to have missed that, but it's simply a matter of timing, not superior behavior.
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MadameX
I like what you said about the phrase "if it's not hard enough, you're doing it wrong" this is a pretty common theme in christian circles. It always amazes me that the simplicity of accepting a gift can somehow convince people that suddenly they must make a ridiculous attempt to "train others on how to accept the free gift"
Life is hard... Christianity is simple, Love God, Love your neighbor, nothing else really matters. -
I've been here 7 months and I've not seen Christians attacked for being Christian...I've seen Christians attacked for being smug and rude to atheists though.
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@ Madam X,
No, I get respect because I give respect. I count as "friendly" many who do not share my faith.
In your words to me you insulted me for no real reason. "superior behavior" them's fightin words don't you think? But I won't hit back at you with an equally cleverly worded insult. My attitude/behavior is not "superior", my jokes are probably just as bad as anyone else's but God obviously had a sense of humor and so do I. Faith, to me, is how you live your life not how you preach to others. I live my life the best I can and I respect other people's rights to live theirs their own way. God and I are cool so I must be doing it okay. I do not feel that God wants me to use my faith to insult or belittle others but istead to play nice and get along and show in my actions how I believe. -
Floormodel, I'm sorry that you misunderstood what I said and took offense. When I said "superior behavior" I didn't mean "acting superior" (which is something altogether different and would have been insulting). I meant that you didn't get respect because you were behaving better than others. I take no position on whether or not you do behave better than some others--I haven't seen enough of your posting to know. I do know for a fact, however, that many people in these forums have "given respect" and not received it in return, and that thus behaving graciously yourself is no guarantee of being treated graciously in return. I'm not sure how that was unclear, but I'm sorry it came across the way it apparently did.
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I believe he is saying that the Christianity we see today (well at least in his day) was more worldly and not what Christianity was meant to be as taught by Jesus and the Apostles
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I think that's true and an important point, but--and granted I haven't read the whole work--it seems to come at the issue somewhat backward, saying basically "if it's not hard enough, you're doing it wrong", rather than pointing to the actual pieces that are missing and could lead to spiritual growth.
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SiuilARuin,
I didnt think the last one was that bad but I guess it depends on the interpretation.
I used Caps aggressively. OK I used it for emphasis maybe. OH well sorry -
"a fight" with whom?
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K gang sorry for the confusion. I won't post any more like that. Maybe I just dont understand how this forum is supposed to work.
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Have a look at how other threads involving Christianity have gone www.blogcatalog.com/discuss/search/thread/christianity/
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did I just kill this thread? WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
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I went and read your blog... it is a little slow to load honestly.. but so is mine sometimes.
Regarding the content, I found some good stuff It looks like you are fed up with the same stuff that the rest of the world is tired of(hypocritical christians) My blog is similarly themed. I would say that It is a hard thing to not "Reek of canned Christianity" these days. I was raised in the Church of Christ and truly believed that We were the only ones going to heaven. I spouted that hogwash for 21 years before my perfect life became a living hell... Then I learned who Jesus was and started walking with him. Because of those experiences I tend to avoid the cliche's and assumptions of "True Christianity" it has been abused so much that it begs for a cynical scoff.
I would say that you are on a good path, seeking the truth. If you feel you must instruct others on the folly of their ways, remember this. You have to earn the right to speak into someones life, this is only done through building a solid relationship of trust and friendship. If you don't have the time to invest, keep your mouth shut. I would think that this is also true in blogging. I have off and on visited blogcatalog and have often promoted my blog with great comments and made many friends. I think that meekness and humility truly is always appreciated and respected here.
regards,
Jasonthebaldguy -
Jasonthebaldguy,
Thank you for your words. Now that I have had a little time to reflect I guess maybe i did come on a little too strong.
I am concerned about the loading problem and will check that out thanks.
I guess I was trying to attract Christians to my blog because I didn't see why atheists would want to go there. I went about it the wrong way and for that I am sorry.
To anyone I offended I did say what I said and perhaps acted out of anger to some of the things that I saw being said to Christians on here.
Yes we are to love our neighbor as ourselves. That does not mean we are to take abuse when defending our faith.
Someone talked about "tradition." The church today looks nothing like the traditional church.
Thank you again Jason -
Hi Rencal,
I am a christian so I feel your pain right now! lol I've been on BC just a little while now and there are very strong feelings here about "religious threads". If you can develop a thick skin it's no big deal. There are actually many many people who will engage in the discussions, even those who say they hate the "religious" threads. There are so many of these kinds of discussions that even I, who love to discuss the bible and God find that I have the option to pick and choose which discussions I will engage in (because there are so many). So stick around, don't be intimidated, and let it fall like water off a duck's back. Your input is needed. If you are looking for a christian group within BC there are many, but unfortunately no one ever talks in them. But there is a religious debate group that I enjoy.
www.blogcatalog.com/group/religious-debate-and-discussions/
As far as the post by JC Ryle, he is absolutely right on. Anyone who takes offense at what he wrote will probably take offense at Jesus as well because He said it much more bluntly than that. Many people say they are christians but Jesus warned that "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord' will enter the kingdom of heaven; but he who does the will of My father who is in heaven".-
Thank you Jflower36,
Thank you for your words. I do not get intimidated easy but yesterday I did let my frustration get the best of me and for that I am sorry.
Maybe Christians aren't talking about their faith so much on here because they are afraid to. They are afraid of the taunting and disrespect from the atheist community on here.
JC Ryle was a man of holiness. The problem is that we, as Christians , have forgotten that holiness is part of the deal.
Again thank you for your words. I am not going anywhere and will be paying attention. -
"Maybe Christians aren't talking about their faith so much on here because they are afraid to. They are afraid of the taunting and disrespect from the atheist community on here."
I doubt that anyone is "afraid" of anything that can happen in an online forum. Hard to fear people you can make disappear from your life with a single click. I think it's more a matter of relevance. I wouldn't go into a NASCAR forum and start a bunch of threads about my garden. -
MadameX: I think mockery and sarcasm can have a discouraging, if not exactly an intimidating,effect. It's pointless to talk if nobody's listening or really interested in what you have to say. Disagreement is one thing, it's very interesting and I learn a lot from it, but ridicule is a complete waste of time.
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I agree, NP--but I think that in general people get far too emotional about the passing comments of strangers in Internet forums. I think it's good for us all to step back and put that in context now and then.
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Madame X I think this is a very relevant place to discuss Christianity. If discussion were started and no one responded then it would be safe to assume no one was interested. But history in BC shows that a lot of people are interested.
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Generally, perhaps. But I still hold that it's an odd place to post a discussion and indicate that only Christians are welcome to respond.
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People do get hurt by what is said on online forums which is why people react the way they do sometimes when they do venture out to say something. There are some who are not that thick skinned and do take things personally.
I am all over the net and hear on forums all the time from people by pm that they are afraid to say anything in case someone jumps all over them.
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This is the General Discussion board open to all..
If you only want feedback from Christians, I suggest you post it in any one of the Christian groups available here -
"That does not mean we are to take abuse when defending our faith."
Now if only everyone could apply that to everybody, Christians and non-Christians alike. -
I suppose you could call me an atheist, but I'm very interested in what religious people have to say. I find so much of religious writing moving and beautiful, particularly when dealing with the subject of death and our purpose here on earth. Only the Greek tragedians and Shakespeare come close to matching the Bible's breadth and eloquence. So I'm happy to see these threads in general discussions, even though I myself may have nothing in particular to say.
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Sorry this was in response to reginaldcdotme
Well this discussion was about Christians. Obviously Muslims and Jews have their own faiths to discuss.
As a Christian, I can only use the Bible as my rule of faith and standard. Jesus spoke about hell and if He is my Rabbi (or teacher) as He was to the disciples and he was and is the Son of God, then I have to believe what He said. Whether that makes sense to you or not is irrelevant. You have to choose this day whom you will serve by making your own decision on that.
I can't make excuses for what man does and killing in the name of God, any God is wrong. Murder is one of the 10 biggies.
I don't believe that Christianity is fear based although there has been a time where it was. I do believe that there are absolutes. They are, according to me and Christians around the world laid out in the Bible. There is a heaven and there is a hell. We choose consciously by denial or receiving salvation through Jesus Christ what will happen to us for eternity. That is not God's fault, that is our choice.
Christians do not fear losing our grip on the world because we never had it. Satan (the enemy) roams around the world looking for whom he may devour. He is the ruler of the world for now.
The wonderful news is we have been warned that the world will get worse.(and it is) We just keep holding on to our blessed hope.
I am not a God. I am a man. To say we are Gods shows pride and puts us on an equal footing with, in my opinion, the one true God. The enemy tried that once but his fate is sealed. It is only a matter of time.
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True Christians? How about True Muslims? What about True Jews? Everyones ones truth is a personal walk. the problem with religion is that everyone has to believe the same way and people that don't are banished or punished by God. It has never made sense to me that God would give a person free will and then punish them for making a choice HE did not like. Example, believe in Christ or go to hell.
Religious thought has been destructive to mankind. Conversion by the sword and now the bomb has been common place. Each of the major religions listed above kill in the name of God daily? How hypocritical is that? You can murder another part of Gods creation and its ok, as long as it is in his name?
We are all a part of creation. each of our experiences are relevant. There is no one way to believe in ALL THAT IS. Religion and its fear based hypocracy is losing its grip on the masses.To think that your belief is the only or true belief is the first step in condemning the next person and making it ok for them to die in the name of YOUR TRUTH!
Consider this! You are gods!-
Only Catholics believe that God doesn't "Punish" people.. the rest do... Some religion believe god rides a really cool space ship...
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Good thing the catholics don't believe in hell for as many people the catholic church has killed in the name of God over the centuries.I would like to see that spaceship though. lol
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Where did you get the idea that Catholics don't believe in hell?
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Since when did Catholics stop believing in hell or punishment? I'm not catholic but I'm pretty sure they haven't thrown away the bible.
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The Pope did change the catholic stance on heaven and hell in 1999.
The Vatican believes heaven and hell are only mental :
reginaldc.me/?p=47-
That is entirely inaccurate
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Inaccurate? everyone has an opinion. Prove it, I documented my facts. where is yours?
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I would suggest the Catechism of the Catholic church as a good source of actual church teaching on the doctrines of heaven and hell. Although a good start would be simply to read the full document to which you refer rather than simply the two paragraphs that support your position. And then some basic understanding of church teachings for context would be useful...for instance, since the mind is a part of the worldly body and not of the soul, it's difficult to understand how anything that happens to the soul after death could be properly termed a "mental state".
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The part that was quoted was the part that was relevant to the FACT that the catholic church changed its stance on heaven and hell. Fact, science can not locate the MIND in the physical body. If you can show me a link where that is the case I will change my stance. Your opinions are great but unfounded in any relevant factual information.I give you facts you discount them with YOUR opinion. Any one can do that!
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The Catechism of the Catholic church is over 800 pages long. I don't have time to page through it and find the relevant passages for you. Feel free to read it. Each and every one of my "opinions" about church teaching comes directly from that book.
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I stand corrected. I am reading the 1999 statement by the Pope and will get back to you.
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Guess I have to take it at your word. yeah right! lol There is a link to the document from the pope in case you care to look. get the facts before you pronounce something as entirely inaccurate! You just missed the announcement like millions of others in 1999.
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@Rencal, thanks for the link. It appears to me the part I quoted and the catechism reads the same. If the pope makes a decree, does it not carry weight with the catholic people? To believe something other than the pope, is that heresy?
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This isn't a "decree". There are statements which are doctrinal and statements which are not--the vast majority of teaching from the Pope is not doctrinal. Of course, as the leader of the church and Christ's representative on earth, the Pope's interpretations are given great weight even when they do not carry doctrinal authority. However, it is important to remember that these teachings are offered to Catholics, and as such offered in the context of the vast body of Catholic teaching already available, not as one-offs that aspire to explain the whole of an issue in a few hundred words.
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If the Pope makes a decree I guess it does carry weight with Catholic people. I am not Catholic so probably am not in the best position to answer that. I thought it was only a decree if he announced it ex cathedra. That was when the popes decrees were infallible.
I wait to be corrected by some good Catholics
I am not an expert on heresy.
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i didn't read what your post or half of the later reply. but i can tell u that if u have the full gospel, then u are true Christian. if u live like what bible teaches, then u r true Christian.
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86 john - your gramatically incorrect reply is far more profound and insightful than this guy's post/blog.
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grammatically incorrect?
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I assume that he means the failure to capitalize new sentences, the phrase "like what the bible teaches", and perhaps the textspeak spelling. But I think the comment was, in general, meant to be positive...you might be focusing in on the wrong piece.
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You are correct sir.
@cookinga***hole what is it about my blog that you don't like, as a Christian? Was it just this post you didn't like? Was it the whole blog? What can I do to change it to make it more appealing to you? -
I don't like the attitude of superiority. What Ryle is attempting to argue by stating "Of spiritual strife and exertion and conflict and self–denial and watching and warring they know literally nothing at all" is that Christianity is an internal, not external, introspective stuggle. One must constantly work on oneself. He is just describing the proper mode of life and nothing else. The fact that you come here and make it an external accusatory battle shows you do not understand what Ryle was trying to say.
Also you should try writing commentary for your quotations. It might help you think it through. -
I don't think I have an attitude of superiority on my site. I believe that "truth is not relative, only our position to it" - Jonathan D. Payne
Condescending much? I have thought this through very well. I have also read many of Ryle's writings and believe he says exactly what he means.
He is not talking about internals but externals.He is saying that most who call themselves Christians know nothing of self denial and hardship nor spiritual strife.
I wasn't trying to make it accusatory. I simply posted a link to a post and asked fro opinions. I thank you for yours.
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@Rencal,
Truth is relative. Religion is relative. Most religions are fear based and Christianity is no different. People fear going to hell. Their actions are often guided by this fear.
Christians around the world have agendas. I believe if Jesus was teaching today Christians would crucify him. You are a god. Jesus said himself. See John 10:34. What if Jesus had a deeper meaning than the literal words he spoke? He actually did. He said so. See John 16:25. The disciples of the time misunderstood what Jesus was teaching and the disciples of today still misunderstood. Throw in some misdirection by the catholic church at the council of Nicean and you get a particularly deadly brand of religion that exist today. Its not all Christianity. I was raised religious and Christian. But then I grew up spiritually.
Jesus was a great teacher. But it appears much of his message has been misinterpreted. His teaching were never meant to be about the man. Unfortunately that is what the church started. Understand the deeper meanings that Jesus intended and you can then know as he said, you are gods. Jesus proclaimed himself the son of man and a son of God. He said we were the same. He never said he was the messiah. Man needed that claim to promote his agenda. It has worked well. -
The verse you used from John 10:34 was taken way out of context of what the verse means. I could type it out but I will refer you to:
www.ronrhodes.org/qmanbecomegod.html
This gentleman has as clear an answer as I could give.
As for john 16:5 He said He spoke to them in a figurative language. He was teaching so the disciples would understand Him.
Jesus was very clear who He was. Those surrounding Him knew who He was. The prophecies were very clear who He was as were the prophets.
I will agree some Christians do have agenda's. Some however do not -
I left a comment in your post.
God Bless you brother! -
what is true gospel? what is incomplete gospel? do you know?
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no one can really know. the Gospels we each follow (or don't follow) are man's words telling us their interpretations of what they think God might have wanted us to know. Over the years and through the translations parts have been omitted or revised according to the person(s) translating. I think that's why I find offense with anyone touting "true Christianity" as a rule for anyone else to live by. We should live by faith and we feel is correct and not solely by the words of other men.
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The teachings of Jesus havent changed even in translations.
The essential doctrines of the church havent changed in 2000 years.
There are things that are essential and things that are dogma. -
Floormodel, you stated, "Over the years and through the translations parts have been omitted or revised according to the person(s) translating."
That's actually not true. Yes there were variances or differences between the original manuscripts of the new testament, but the differences were minor and didn't affect the message of the new testament at all. When the original manuscripts are compared with each other, there are about 200,000 variants. That may sound like a lot, but those errors include things like a missed comma or a misspelling. And if a certain word was misspelled 537 times in 537 copies, that would count as 537 variants/misspellings. Within the New Testament there were about 400 words that scholars are unsure what the original writing said. Those 400 words are in 40 different verses. The content of those verses contain no basis for any essential doctrine of the christian faith, therefore scholars are able to recover 97-99% of the original content of the NT with certainty.
I got this information from Doug Powell's book, "Christian Apologetics".
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I'm not sure I believe that any one can "define" Christianity or say their definition is "true". I think that a personal definition of Christianity is more appropriate for most people, and so long as it is real (rather than academic) and based on what Jesus himself taught, I don't think anyone else has the right to define it as "true" or otherwise. After all, for those who believe in a judgement day etc, I don't think anyone will be asked to define Christianity to gain access to heaven! The key issues are 1. did we believe and 2. what did we do about it.-
Christianity is very personal BUT also very corporate. You are right we won't be asked to "define" Christianity But we will be judged on how we lived it according to the standards that were laid out for us
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I don't disagree there is a corporate element - we are the body of Christ etc. But I do feel it is our personal thoughts and actions that are the key issues, not semantics or different doctrines etc.
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If you're a true christian then you should be slaying every gay man you see on the street. I doubt you are doing so, though. I doubt anyone is doing so, so let's just forget about being a true christian, okay?
The only true christian is the christian who follows the bible to the letter. The moment you don't do that and start making up excuses for ignoring certain things in the bible you should start doubting the damn thing.
Religion is not a democracy. You do not get to pick which parts you practice and which parts you ignore. You are expected to listen to the word of your god. If you don't then that means you doubt your god which in turn means you don't worship your god. So no, christianity is not a personal thing and it's not hard to define. If you don't follow the bible to the letter you are not a true christian, period.-
are you suggesting we "slay gay people"?
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Funny, I thought Christ said love each other, I must have missed the part that said I needed to become FreakSmack the Gay Slayer. -
I could have sworn the bible also said: "If a man lays with another man as he does a women, he shall surely be put to death."
So you tell me, which one is it? Love each other or kill each other? -
TigerXtrm you made some very interesting points. I think you are astute in that you have the understanding that we are held to the letter of the law, and you are correct in believing that.
But it is pretty obvious that no one can do that...right? There just isn't any possible way that anyone can follow the bible to the letter of the law and not mess up somewhere. Someone could spend their entire life trying to measure up to the law and they would fail. The law is a standard, and it shows us where we mess up (sin) and where we have gone wrong. And if the old testament law were not enough, Jesus stepped it up a notch by saying that we are guilty just by the thoughts we think and the motives of our hearts.
When Jesus came, He came in fulfillment of the law. It’s kind of like a puzzle piece that was missing a part. The new testament was the missing part. The old testament shows us that we can't do it and the new testament shows that Jesus took the punishment for our inability to follow the law.
The new testament makes it clear that we are no longer bound by the law, but we are free in Christ. That doesn’t mean that we are no longer accountable to the law. The book of Galatians points out that the law is a tutor to point out our sin, and Jesus is the one that frees us from the “curse of the law”. Galatians quotes the old testament, "Cursed is anyone who doesn't abide by all things written in the book of the law to perform them". Sin brings about this curse, but Jesus saves us from this curse. Galatians 3:24 says, "Therefor the law has become our tutor to lead us to Christ, that we may be justified by faith". Jesus doesn't save us based on "being a good person" or "following the 10 commandments". He saves us by his mercy, and He changes us on the inside, transforming our heart.
Jesus said that he didn’t come to abolish the law but to fulfill. Jesus actually stopped the religious leaders from stoning a woman who was caught in adultery. He had compassion on her, but he also told her to “sin no more”.
There are many laws in the old testament that were rendered null and void. For example, the practice of eating only “clean foods” in the old testament no longer applies, as seen in the book of Acts. Or even following the Sabbath, as Paul also makes it clear that we are not to allow anyone to hold us to that principle any longer. There are many of these laws that no longer apply.
As far as killing someone who is gay, christians don't have any authority or right to do that. That would be considered murder. The old testament laws saying this was an application of Jewish civic law, which no longer applies. It's also clear by the example that Jesus gave that Christians should reach out to others in love. But that doesn't mean that Christians condone sin. -
@Tiger Spoken from someone who does not understand Christianity at all. Killing homosexuals is not a Christian belief.
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thats from leviticus Old Testament Hebrew scriptures. Christ's words "let he who is without sin cast the first stone"
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- The vast majority of Christians follow Jesus’ teaching to “love your enemies”. However, all Christian denominations and even sects that demand literal reading of scripture likewise demand that believers accept the whole Bible and not cherry pick from scriptures. That evangelical Christian fundamentalist milieu is the milieu in which I was raised. Also as I was raised in the bush and home schooled in a community/cult I was not exposed to "the ways of the world" or contradictory teachings of any kind until I went to college.
Well, according to the following verses, Christians should be killing anyone (1) who dares to deny the existence of their god, (2) who chooses not worship their god, and/or (3) who has the audacity to choose to reject the teachings.
Kill those who speak rebellion against God (Deuteronomy 13:5)
Kill anyone who arrogantly rejects priests (Deuteronomy 17:12)
Kill anyone who refuses to seek God (2 Chronicles 15:13)
Kill anyone who violates the covenant of God (Deuteronomy 17:2,4-5)
Those refusing to retain knowledge of God deserve death (Romans 1:25,28,32)
As a child I was deeply disturbed by this and I secretly embraced only some new testament teachings. As a young adult I rejected all belief in the bible and god, the belief that Jesus was god, and all dogma and doctrine. After graduating from 2 bible colleges with honors grades, I became an apostate. I knew in my heart of hearts that I was a pacifist. Today I am so very glad that I did because the consequence of seeking is finding and I found the Buddhist path.-
TimeThief,
I am sorry if your upbringing was cultish and fundamentalist. Maybe that gives you the insight that you have on Christianity today. I'm not sure.
The first verses you quoted were from The Torah. Jewish texts that Christians, although our beliefs are founded on, do not follow the Old Covenant. (it was all fulfilled by Christ)
Let's look at these verses from Romans in context shall we:
Romans 1
18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness,
19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them.
20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.
21For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened.
22Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like mortal man and birds and animals and reptiles.
24Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another.
25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones.
27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion.
28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done.
29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips,
30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents;
31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless.
32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
It is saying that God has decreed they deserve death. That is anyone who sins not just homosexuals. He has given us a salvation (a way that does not lead to death)
God, in His Word, has also said that His Son is the salvation of the world
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Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Christians should be killing anyone.
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Nowhere in the Bible does it say that Christians should be killing anyone.
Indeed this is exactly the position that I took and I might add that I was scorned, maligned and eventually shunned for doing so.
(1) Christianity is based on the Tanakh minus over 600 known rabbinical teachings that supplemented those scriptures belonging to the Hebrew people.
(2) In order to establish a Jesus centered faith his followers cherry picked from the Tanakh to demonstrate support for their belief that Jesus had fulfilled the "The Old Covenant" law and prophecy.
(3) There is no support for violence of any kind, even in self defense, found in the books that were selected to comprise the New Testament. Consequently, self professed Christians who support war, capital punishment, or violence of any kind whatsoever or for any "reason", and/or who choose to fight and kill anyone are not in a position to proclaim their god/Jesus is on their side.
Nor are self professed Christians in a position to self-righteously proclaim that they are heroic defenders of their own country, when they are invading foreign countries and killing citizens to protect economic interests of corporations.
Wake up America! God is not on your side
thistimethisspace.com/2008/06/29/wake-up-america-god-is-not-on-your-side/
America Awake! Killing is not a Christian virtue
thistimethisspace.com/2008/07/02/america-awake-killing-is-not-a-christian-v... -
TT,
I can't believe I am saying this but "I agree" somewhat.
1) Christianity is based on the Jewish law which Christ didn't do away with but solidified into two sayings
Love the Lord your god with all your heart soul and mind
and
love your neighbor as yourself.
In these two you will have fulfilled the laws.
2)Jesus did fulfill the prophecy from the OT there are too many for you to dispute that. But you still will so that is ok.
3)This is a political position. God says to obey the law of your land. If you are a soldier it is a duty. Should you not defend your country?
I am a Canadian as are you. I am a former Infantryman. I would stand proudly to defend my country so YOU would be safe (if called again)
Should we, with your argument, have no one defending our borders? Remember 911? I remember exactly where I was that day.
God does not want us to kill arbitrarily but defense is a different matter.
I dont agree with what is going on in the war on terror but I do believe that the future is mapped out. I read the Bible and see the future. I even see how close we are coming to it.
Lets say for a minute the Bible isnt true. Do you not believe the world is on a crash course for some kind of chaos?
The west has had it so good for so long and yet in other countries children are dying in the street. You are worried about the war in Iraq....
Have you been worrying about the child prostitutes in Russia and the Ukraine?
How about the dying in Africa?
How about those in other conflicts around the world?
The Iraq war is a minor occurrence right now compared to those being killed by dictators in other countries. Check out Uganda, Sri Lanka, Somalia.......they make Iraq and Afghanistan look like a picnic
Let me add that by your own admission you are apostate.
You are not in any position to say who's side God is on -
Thanks for continuing our conversation.
You are not in any position to say who's side God is on
Unless or until you can definitively prove the existence of your construct of god beyond a reasonable, and we both know you cannot do, that you are likewise in no position to say who's side good is on.
What you are in a position to do is to acknowledge that the New Testament contains absolutely no basis for the sanctioning or commitment of violence for any reason or in any circumstance.
I've never made any statements to the effect of god being on anyone's side in any war. That's the claim been made by government flacks and military propagandists the world over.
I do experience god, however, not the one that man constructed; I experience the god that gives rise to all. God is found in everyone and in everything; god just keeps on is-ing. Neither male nor female, neither good nor bad, neither light nor darkness but containing all there is and situate everywhere: the universal stream of consciousness flowing through all is god.
One cannot experience this one and only one god that gives rise to all unless or until one learns how to stop cogitating and start meditating.
Then what they will experience is that when all the things associated with "self" (i.e. the ego) like religious and political ideologies, desire, greed, anger, hate, etc. totally dissolve is that there is no self; there is no distinct being that is separate from the universal stream of pure consciousness -- peace and love. -
@TT
Believe it or not I enjoy your insights.
You said "Wake up America! God is not on your side"
That is why I said what I did. You by your own admission are apostate. How do you know what side God is on?
I agree the New Testament DOES NOT sanction violence however when it comes to protecting your borders, should we do that?
For the record I believe the wars that are happening now were strted absolutely for the wrong reasons.
You do not believe in the Christian God! That is ok and I can say at least you are honest about what you do and do not believe.
You stated "God is found in everyone and in everything; god just keeps on is-ing. Neither male nor female, neither good nor bad, neither light nor darkness but containing all there is and situate everywhere: the universal stream of consciousness flowing through all is god."
Is God in a serial killer, a rapist, a murderer?
I will agree neither male nor female but as a Christian cannot agree on both darkness and light as that goes against scripture.
Thank you for your conversation.
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True Christianity is Jesus living through us. He said we would be the light of the world. He also said when He returned He would know His sheep by their lives. I would rather look at myself as a follower of Jesus than a Christian. Today's Christianity is not following Christ it is following denominations and man's ideas.-
Great comment. The main goal of a Christian is to Love God, Thy neighbor in spirit and in truth. This is from my view point.
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There is nothing wrong with you posting in this forum and asking for feedback from Christians. Don't let others intimidate you. Of course you may not get the responses that you were hoping for.
I'm a christian and I thought the definition was incomplete. I don't disagree with what was said, but it mainly said what Christianity isn't (vaguely) but never said what it is. -
The only way I can respond to the phrase "True Christian" is to link to my latest post: www.kobrascorner.com/fury/worthless-observations.php
Here's an adapted piece of the relevant part of that post:
True Christian? As opposed to False Christian? And how do they know? Is there a test that separates True Believers™ from False Believers? Upon which denomination is this test based? And if it's nondenominational, why include the "True" modifier to begin with?
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