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Possibly...but I definitely know he is not on the side of the Boston Celtics!

Note: Making a proclamation on whose "side" God is or isn't on is definitely on shaky grounds...even if one says it facitiously.

[reply]

6/30/08

timethief

@TBR
I'm glad to hear you agree with me. I also believe that the radical "Christian" preachers who have made these god is on our side remarks are misguided and not in an actual relationship with Jesus as they claim to be. In other words, I believe they are deluded.
6/30/08

TheBigRuski

However, in your approach to this topic you are brushing in very broad strokes....Amercia this, Christians that.
6/30/08

kevingoodman

@timethief

I'm glad to see you make distictions between radical 'christians' and the entire community.

From what I can ascertain Christ would not have supported any killing of any kind.
6/30/08

timethief

duplicate removed
6/30/08

timethief

@kevingoodman
"I'm glad to see you make distictions between radical 'christians' and the entire community. From what I can ascertain Christ would not have supported any killing of any kind."

Yes, Kevin this is exactly the point I have been trying to make. New Testament teaching provide no basis whatsoever for behaving in any manner that cannot be described as compassionate, loving and peaceful. For a Christian person to proclaim that "God is on our side" in any violent situation where they are killing other humans is totally misguided. Although there is another word that could be used in the place of "misguided" it's not my intention to hurt. My post is meant to be a wake up call.
6/30/08

MadameX

It's a shame that the term "radical Christians" has been hijacked (just like "Christian" has in general). Radical Christianity is an absolute adherence to Christ's teachings, regardless of how inconsistent that may be with social norms. It is NOT a distortion of those teachings to allow for violence and evil.

6/30/08

zawadi

When has GOD been on the side of any Country killing????

I mean this Anti American Post is nothing new on BC. Most Americans already know this is not a war that should have happened. The popularity of Bush over the past few years have proved this time and time again.

When has any war been good? To be honest I think if the citizens of a country cannot take down their own leaders they deserve to live under those conditions.

When America pays for all the bad it's done, Believe me all will be brought to light. Great Britain included.

[reply]

6/30/08

timethief

God, as depicted by New testament teachings attributed to Jesus. has never been, is not now and will never be on the side of those, who use violence to instill their political will upon others.
6/30/08

legbamel

Considering the history of people who've proclaimed that god was on their side and telling them to perform various vile acts, I wouldn't go about claiming that he was on my side if I intended to claim a moral high ground. As a rule, those folks usually behave worse than whatever wrong they are (theoretically) addressing.
7/05/08

harleyblues

I'm well, and American I kinda agree with you~ I don't know about the America's gotta pay bit?.. that's how I read it, but your right if a country cannot take out its own evil... in their own government then they are at fault...
Who is the United States to be policing the intire world?

Especially invading countries..In supporting OUR allies yes.. But Iraq did not ask us to come on in "Bombs Blasting" and NO, I donnot believe Jesus God or any higher power would want one nation after, slaughtering one another..
hb~
7/05/08

timethief

@harleyblues
Thanks for commenting. I can't find anything in the New Testament that upholds hatred, violence and killing in the name of God. Granted that we can find that those, who mis-interpreted the message or who deliberately denied it and as Popes were among those who denied the message and who instigated, perpetuated and/or upheld hatred and war, I believe that dispels the silly myth that any Pope has been or could ever be infallible.

6/30/08

mikeny07

You have to look at this as if you are an alien visiting this planet. If you don't, answers will just be based on your political party since nobody can look at things in the middle it seems today. Thank God I still do.

Saddam commited more crimes then you can list in this thread. You don't have enough room here to list them all. You can look this up on the Internet on how evil he was.

So if someone outside of Earth looked at him, they would be on our side in the war. They would say "nice job in getting rid of this madman".

[reply]

6/30/08

richrf

How is Saddam any better for killing tens of thousands of Iraqis, compared to Bush who has done the same? I guess Iraqis are expendable when it comes to fighting over oil? I think every one who drives an SUV should consider how many people have died in order to help secure that oil. But, as it turns out, there is less oil than there was before. The Law of Unintended Consequences.
6/30/08

TheBigRuski

Bush gased innocents? Sponsored people who kill innnocents?

Where did I miss those headlines? You are gravely mistaken to compare the action of targeting enemies willing to kill innocent people to the action of killing infidels.

I did not see Bush sponsor an education program for grade schoolers that includes the hatred of infidels either.
6/30/08

Anok

Well, considered we supported, abetted, aided and funded most of that list, Mike, I'd say we're just as bad.
6/30/08

timethief

@http://www.blogcatalog.com/discuss/entry/wake-up-america-god-is-not-on-your-side#comment_448071

"You have to look at this as if you are an alien visiting this planet. ... "

No I don't have to look at this from your point of view. The discussion question parameters I set are clear.

Discussion question: Do you believe that God, as depicted in the New Testament teachings attributed to Jesus, is on the side of America in this war on Iraq?

"Saddam commited more crimes then you can list in this thread. You don't have enough room here to list them all. You can look this up on the Internet on how evil he was."

(1) You have failed to respond directly to the question as stated.

(2) The invasion and war against Iraq is not only illegal (the UN Security Council never approved it as “a just war”) but it’s also immoral. The claim that Saddam Hussein possessed weapons of mass destruction and was prepared to unleash them against the American public was false.

(2) There is no permission in the New Testament teachings attributed to Christ for his followers to replace God by reeking vengeance on and killing Iraqi women and children because their leader was and evil murderer. The teachings attributed to Jesus challenging his followers to love unconditionally, to love their enemies even as they love themselves.
6/30/08

timethief

@TheBigRuskie
It's unfortunate that you cannot confine yourself to answering the question that I posed. You have indeed identified yourself within this BC community as a Christian and yet rather than answering the question you have gone off on tangents.

Discussion question: Do you believe that God, as depicted in the New Testament teachings attributed to Jesus, is on the side of America in this war on Iraq?
6/30/08

TheBigRuski

@TT...my answers are all over this discussion.

6/30/08

BTW...no one ever told me that Jesus is an American!

If your beef is with Christians making this sort of proclamation, that is not a consensus.

Your topic would have been better served without the sensationalism.

[reply]

6/30/08

offendedblogger

Jesus is definitely not a (legal) American.
6/30/08

TheBigRuski

^ I get it!

6/30/08

richrf

Religion is always convenient, and the Bible, luckily for religious people, can read any way you want it to. It says everything, so there is something for everyone.

I think that there are many, many Americans who actually believe that in some way, shape, or form, Iraqis care about whether we are "free" or not (I think most Iraqis couldn't give a flying slurp about that), and genuinely are concerned about their freedom. I think others just hate foreigners or non-Christians of all types. And still others, actually understand that we are at war to secure the oil - and think that it is O.K to kill people, simply because they are living on top of the oil that we want to burn, so that we can go to Europe this summer.

I think that humanity creates come incredible drama, which has its humorous side to it, as long as you believe that there is some rhyme and reason to the circle of Life. But religion is always a good place to start, to better understand the nature of Humans. Myths, the Bible, religious teachings, say a lot about who we are.

[reply]

6/30/08

MadameX

Rich, like anything else that makes demands on people, religion is most certainly NOT always convenient.

6/30/08

Let me also ask you this...if you saw your neighbor beating his wife what would you do?

Anotherwords, if much of the world saw Sadam Hussein kill thousands, if not (at least eventually) millions of people, what would much of the world do?

I'm not saying at all that the war was not oversold or mismanaged, but as far as I'm concerned Sadam is a WMD.

Now, as far as Jesus, he did get angry a few times...overturned the money makers tables in the temple. Not sure he preached: watch your neighbor (or country) get beat up silently.

[reply]

6/30/08

richrf

In case you haven't notice, Bush has also killed tens of thousands of Iraqis, (probably hundreds of thousands), and uncountable number of wounded, probably for life. Now, for those who died, it doesn't really matter who did it. What matters, is their unconscionable sin - They live on top of oil that America wants, so that we can drive SUVs and make our annual trips to Europe and Latin America. Sounds like a good reason to die to me. How about you?
6/30/08

TheBigRuski

see above
6/30/08

richrf

Yep, Bush killed hundreds of thousands of innocent people. Absolutely doing nothing other than trying to live out their lives. A few of them probably hated America for putting Saddam Hussein in power, arming him, and helping him keep control of the country (until of course, he became a little too independent), but beyond that, they are just innocent pawns in this world game of "Securing the Oil". One terrible game, fed by greed and waste.
6/30/08

TheBigRuski

I thought Christians were delusional!
6/30/08

timethief

@TheBigRuskie
I'm politely asking you for the second time to respond to the question I posed.

Discussion question: Do you believe that God, as depicted in the New Testament teachings attributed to Jesus, is on the side of America in this war on Iraq?

I've also noted that although you are displaying one heck of a case of verbal diarrhea in this thread, you have not done me the courtesy of submitting a comment to my blog post.

I'm disappointed that you seem to be quite adept in the use of what Christians refer to as "the tools of the Devil" (delusion, distraction, denial, deception) rather than simply answering the question as Christian, within the context provided in the question.
6/30/08

TheBigRuski

I don't know. He probably is on the side of Iraq as well. Again, my answers are in this discussion already. You just may have missed them.

But ultimately, my answer is I don't know...and I don't think that God is rooting for individual countries per se.

However, He is rooting for all of us!
6/30/08

MadameX

I would say, in direct response to your question as phrased, that God is in one sense on everybody's side, since he loves all humans. In another sense, it's an insane vanity to think about God being "on our side" at all...either we are on HIS side or we are not...it seems highly unlikely that he's lining up to promote OUR agendas.

6/30/08

mikeny07

I made a post in the 1990s saying why do people need those SUV's and was flamed for it.

It is really odd now today that people who own them can't sell them fast enough. They are not worth anything due to the low MPG they get.

A lesson everyone can learn. Just because you have the money to buy something, does not mean you should buy it.

All these SUV's on the road are killing us here by using so much gas. Why not get a little small car and drive to work that way?

[reply]

6/30/08

carlgalloway

There are a lot of people on this planet who want to look successful, an SUV is one obvious sign of success. Personally I'm going to sell my car (which is very small) and get a bicycle
6/30/08

richrf

Yes, I agree. Those SUVs are a status symbol of Waste. In other words, Americans are making a statement: "We have so much, that we can waste". But, you know, people are dying all over the world, so that we can waste. Maybe, now that we have lost trillions of dollars in wealth, we will be a little less wasteful, though I fear the wars for oil will continue. It reminds me a little of the great science fiction novel Dune.
6/30/08

Anok

Or as I call them "suburban assault vehicles"
6/30/08

MadameX

There's nothing odd about it and I doubt that anything has been learned--people didn't see why we should be worrying about gas consumption then because it was just an issue of preserving natural resources and not costing them personally. Obviously, spending extra money at the gas pump is much, much more important to most people--at least to those who bought and are now selling SUVs--than preservation of the earth.

6/30/08

mikeny07

If enough people start a drive, we can go back to the horses at least locally. They used them here long ago and everyone got along fine.

Why doesn't someone bring back "Little House on the Prairie" days and we drive horses; at least in the small towns? They don't need no gas or oil to run.

[reply]

6/30/08

richrf

You don't need to go back to horse and buggies, though extreme positions are the likely response of any hardcore right winger - a la Fox News. All you have to do, is stop wasting. You don't need an Expedition to move your butt from your home to your local grocer. Or to pick up your child from school. You certainly don't HAVE to take that vacation to Europe or Asia, nor so you HAVE TO build a giant house to put all of your plastic junk or BIG SUV into.

You can live a more simple life, so Iraqis can live theirs. Do people have to die, simply because a small car isn't man enough for you?
6/30/08

Anok

Hey, I wouldn't mind that Mike - in many ways I think we have lost sight of what is important with all of the gadgets and conveniences we have. Sometimes it takes removing all of that to get back to it.

Just sayin'

in any case, it can't hurt to bicycle more. I mean, we do have a high rate of obesity and a knack for wasting oil - looks like two birds could be killed with one bike

6/30/08

Do you believe that God, as depicted in the New Testament teachings attributed to Jesus, is on the side of America in this war on Iraq?

Why don't we just talk about SUVs instead!?!

[reply]

6/30/08

richrf

Well, at least we would be talking about the real cause of this war, wouldn't we?
6/30/08

timethief

Why don't we just talk about SUVs instead!?!"

I'm surprised that you seem so determined to keep posting nonsense into this thread. It does not look well on you to continue doing so.

Moreover, as you claim to be a practicing Christian, then you must believe that God is watching what you are doing. And what you are doing is trying to distract those posting to this thread from noticing that you are determined to deny your God and his teachings, just as Judas Iscariot is alleged to have denied Jesus.
6/30/08

TheBigRuski

Wow! Can't "win" with you today. BTW I answered the question as best I could...I think its above.
6/30/08

timethief

@TheBigRuskie
re: Wow! Can't "win" with you today. BTW I answered the question as best I could...I think its above.

I'm visually impaired and this is a threaded comment forum that is extremely difficult for me to use. It would be much easier for me to have a non-threaded comments situation where the posts were all listed as they occurred in real time.

I struggled to read what was being posted at the top end of the thread while you traveled rapidly down it and made multiple posts. It was not until after the second time that I requested that you please confine yourself to answering the discussion question that you returned to the top of the thread and did answer the question above. Meanwhile I was at the other end of the thread reading your posts and the others posts to it.
6/30/08

MadameX

Ruski, I know you weren't talking to me, but I don't think he's dumb at all. I think he knows exactly what he's doing, and has made a conscious decision that it doesn't matter how many people he kills or how much damage he does to interntional relations, this country or the world so long as he gets what he wants in the short term.

6/30/08

JaneQCitizen

As an American, I wasn't fooled in the least by the Bush administration. It was always nuts and crazy the way they twisted 9/11 into a war against Iraq.

Secondly, I always find it appalling when groups call on "god's will" to heap violence, shame or blame on another group. Muslim, Jewish, Christian, it matters not the religion.

Thirdly, I'd like to see my country (USA) focus on our own damn problems and let the rest of the world solve theirs on their own.

[reply]

6/30/08

richrf

I think it was Bush who called this a Crusade, and there were certainly many religious, neo-conservatives who were four square behind this new Crusade. Amazing.
6/30/08

TheBigRuski

I think it was Bush who called this a Crusade

I missed that news story as well.
6/30/08

richrf

It was all over the press:

www.csmonitor.com/2001/0919/p12s2-woeu.html

www.thenation.com/doc/20040920/carroll

Just google Bush and Crusade
6/30/08

TheBigRuski

Oh, that dumb Bush...you know how dumb he is and all. That was bad strategery for him to use the "Crusade" word.
6/30/08

timethief

It's my understanding that Bush professes to be a man of deep faith in personal relationship with his Lord and Master Jesus Christ. If this is the case, then his strategy of deluding and deceiving both himself and the people of his country and the ensuing consequences places him in the position of being seen as a war criminal.
6/30/08

JaneQCitizen

@timethief

In this country, a candidate MUST play the faith card. An atheist wouldn't stand a chance of being elected dog catcher here.

I agree with you. In fact, it's no mistake that Iraq sits on the world's second largest oil reserve (Saudi being #1) -- and it just happened to be America's worst enemy that needed invading.

Why is Iran in such a rush to build nuclear arms? Hmmmm. Could it be that they have the world's THIRD largest oil reserves and are scared to death the US is coming for them next?

Edit to add: TT moved her post below
6/30/08

timethief

@Jane
Thanks for your patience. It grieves me to hear this: "In this country, a candidate MUST play the faith card. An atheist wouldn't stand a chance of being elected dog catcher here."

I do believe that religion plays an outrageously disproportionate role in American politics and I think it's up to the American people to reject the pattern they have going. The religious pollution that pervades American politics is not the case in Canada. Here we are exceeding suspicious of candidates espouse their religious beliefs in the political arena.

Re: Your points on Iran's oil reserves and the true reason for American invasion of Iraq please see my post here www.blogcatalog.com/discuss/entry/wake-up-america-god-is-not-on-your-side#c...
6/30/08

timethief

@Jane
You have said: "Thirdly, I'd like to see my country (USA) focus on our own damn problems and let the rest of the world solve theirs on their own."

I agree wholeheartedly with you and we are not alone. I feel confident in saying that if all the citizens of the world were polled as to which single country they would most like to see stay at home and take care of their own business that the answer, in most cases, would be America.

Canadians oppose Iraq war: poll www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080629.wpoll30/BNStory/Nation...
"Opposition to the war is huge in Canada, where 82 per cent of respondents recently polled said the invasion of Iraq was the wrong decision. That’s a major reversal from five years ago, during the early days of the conflict, when 51 per cent of poll respondents said Canadian troops should jump to the aid of the United States.

It’s also a change that is being reflected south of the border where 54 per cent of American respondents to this month’s survey said their country never should have become involved militarily in Iraq.

And an even greater number – 59 per cent – of Americans surveyed applaud Canada’s decision to stay home."

6/30/08

myriadlife

Isn't using God, Crusades etc to justify war a deference of responsibility? Er God made me do it... I don't think so.

[reply]

6/30/08

satijournal

If there is a God, he'd be pissed off we didn't do anything to help the people of Burma (Myanmar) who are still suffering the effects of Cyclone Nargis.

[reply]

6/30/08

richrf

There are really so many things that we could be doing as a nation to help others. It is just so ironic, that are energy, or lives, our wealth, is all being sapped by this one war or choice.
6/30/08

Anok

Or Darfur....
6/30/08

opinionstreams

I hope you're not seriously suggesting that America has not signed up to give aid to Myanmar. Not only has the American goverment offered aid and technological support, but American based charities and philanthropic organizations have done the same. If anything, it is the militaristic government of Burma denying that aid to reach the people who need it that is exacerbating the effects of the Cyclone.

Your post, though, and by extension my response to your post, is off topic.

6/30/08

myriadlife

And endless others all over the world.

[reply]

6/30/08

myriadlife

Darfur is beyond imagination. My cousin has worked out there getting aid through. How can we allow these atrocities to go on and on and on?

[reply]

6/30/08

richrf

Of course, there is the inevitable movie, that we will use as a catharsis. I think humanity is too complex to understand from any one point of view. People kill for power, for wealth, for oil, for security. People for groups in order to gain power, wealth, and security. It is part of the human condition, and I am afraid that in some way, I will have to learn to live with it - though that doesn't mean I will not try to effect some kind of change.

"If you don't change direction, you will end up where you are headed."

6/30/08

Neither the Republicans nor the Democrats have had the courage to reveal the real aims that underlie the illegal and immoral war with Iraq. It was and still is an attempt to establish US hegemony in the oil-rich Middle East and transform Iraq into a platform for further military aggression in the region.

Neither the the Republican Presidential candidate nor the Democrat Presidential candidate have publicly acknowledge the criminal character of the war, which has killed more than 1 million Iraqis and over 4,000 American soldiers, and the conspiracy that launched it. Yet, both Presidential candidates are professing Christians and they are both playing "the faith card" in their electioneering campaigns.

If they are not deluded then what else can we conclude?

[reply]

6/30/08

opinionstreams

We can conclude hundreds of thousands of things other than that they're "delusional". We could, for example, conclude that both presidential candidates are good politicians. Whatever the blogosphere may believe, it is not a good campaign tactic to accuse the country you're running to lead of being a "war criminal."

And bringing their "faith" into this debate is disengenuous. Neither candidate has used faith based justifications for or against the war.
6/30/08

richrf

Yes, I agree. I think that the politicians are just saying what they have to say, in order to appeal to the centrist, and help them get elected. But for all practical matters, we have run out of resources and troops to perpetuate this war much longer (Bush doesn't want to be the one to bugle for retreat, so he just keeps troops in there to kill and be killed).

It is difficult for me to understand the Christian thought that seeks to support this war. I have a very good friend, who is very much a deep Evangelical Christian, who believes that this war is the beginning of the Second Coming. And that is what he believes. Can't argue the point, because it coming from faith.
6/30/08

timethief

@opinionstreams
For many Americans, the rise of religious fundamentalism is evident in the Republican bandwagon and in the Democratic entourage as well. In particular, the Evangelical movement, has emerged as an influential and lucrative voice throwing considerable weight in the political arena. To appease concerns that a politician lacks “piety,” it seems to me that both the Republican candidate and the Democratic candidate are stress their “faith” and “Christian values."

Well the war with Iraq cannot be viewed as a "a just war" and New Testament teachings attributed to Jesus provide no grounds for engaging in violence. That is why I wrote my blog post. My message is Wake up America: God is not on your side.

6/30/08

Discussion question: Do you believe that God, as depicted in the New Testament teachings attributed to Jesus, is on the side of America in this war on Iraq?

[reply]

6/30/08

carlgalloway

I think Jesus Christ would be physically sick at the thought of all the things that have been done in his name. All of his teachings suggest he was more more akin to the Buddha in beliefs than to those who currently use his name to define themselves
6/30/08

timethief

@Carl
I agree that Buddha's philosophical teachings and the religious teachings attributed hundreds of years later to Jesus and are harmonious. There is no condoning violence in them. Without doubt, they are compassionate peacemaking teachings.

dana = authentic generosity (charitable giving of the self and sharing of possessions, donation)
metta = selfless love and good will toward all beings (loving kindness)
karuna = compassion (respect, acceptance, forgiveness)
mudita = altruistic joy filled with peace and contentment (appreciative joy at the success and good fortune of others)
sila = self discipline -abstaining from physical and vocal actions that cause harm to oneself and others
uppekka = equanimity (an inclusive state of open mind free of attachment, aversion, bigotry, craving, ignorance and intolerance)
6/30/08

richrf

To answer your side directly, I think God as depicted in the Bible, and in all religions, is on all sides, and he manifests in all ways. War, unfortunately, is one of them. I think, it is difficult for humans, to understand the greater scheme of things, since we can only view things within our own perspective of Life.

6/30/08

opinionstreams

I posted a response directly on your blog. I think that your argument at best overgeneralizes the issue and that you inappropriately point the proverbial finger at Christians when finding fault with the war in Iraq. As fraudulent as the reasons for this war were, they were never "faith-based." The original justification for the war was the need to preemptively strike Saddam Hussein to prevent him from having a first-strike capability against America and its interests with WMD that it turned out he didn't have. When that basis went south, the Bush Administration came up with other "justifications" for the war and, though each was more nonsensical than the justification that preceeded it, all justifications were based on policy. This was not some kind of an American holy war and to lay the blame for it on Christians unnessarily detracts from the true culprits in this travesty - the Bush Administration.

As I said in direct response to your post though, though I disagree with you, I still think it was a passionate piece and that you're contributing to the dialog.

Shameless blog plug time - I posted my own "just war" article on my website. Check it out here: opinionstreams.com/blog/2008/06/13/revisiting-the-just-war

[reply]

6/30/08

richrf

I think there was much faith based support for this war. Evangelical Christian leaders were very much in support, and still are to a great extent. Here is an example of a quote of James Dobsen, a leading Evangelical leader:

"For the first time in the 29-year history of this ministry, I feel I must address the burgeoning threat posed by Islamic fundamentalism."

www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N25168944.htm

This is a more recent article on the issue of Christian leaders and the Iraq War:

www.abpnews.com/2690.article

Clearly, the support of Evangelical Christians, made it easier for Bush to start this war. So the two are intertwined.
6/30/08

timethief

Thanks for your comment. I have approved it.
6/30/08

satijournal

Those who voted for Bush are partially responsible for the mess in Iraq.
6/30/08

timethief

@opinionstreams
In a country where the majority ascribe to the position that church and state ought to be separated we see a mind boggling example of the opposite occurring. American religious institutions, most particularly Evangelicals wield tremendous power when it comes to selecting political leaders in America right from the bottom positions to the Presidential position. Yet when it comes to the Christian influence on American politics we see no "born again" evidence of the compassionate work ascribed to the Holy Spirit working within them.

The all time record high for USA military spending has been achieved simultaneously with the record high for poverty among citizens on the home front. The likelihood of implementing access for all citizens to a universal health care system is low due to the stranglehold corporations have on the politicians, whom they helped to elect.

The non-combatant casualty count (women and children) in Iraq is horrific. The combatant casualty count continues to rise as America's sons and daughter's arrive home in body bags. And at their funerals words are said over their bodies about God's will being done. This is despite the fact that their deaths can be attributed to a deceptive Administration that lied and in essence, sacrificed America's finest for oil and gas.

There is no basis for claiming self defense or survival as a Christian virtue based on New Testament teachings. There is no basis for believing any other than that God has never been, is not now, and will never be on side with those who kill for any reason let, alone for reasons of conquest and control over resources that do not justly belong to them.

Without doubt many of the people who voted for Bush and his administration were members of Christian faith based communities, who honestly believed he was a virtuous man. This November there will be a significant number of "faith based" Americans, who will once again cast their votes based on the presumed Christian "virtues" of the candidates running for Presidential office.

Deluded - I do believe so.
6/30/08

timethief

@opinionstreams
I have dugg your post just as you have dugg mine. I think it's important to have this dialog and you do too. IMO that's a good sign.

6/30/08

Anok

It just occurred to me that I wrote something about this some time ago.

Now, it's just opinion, so take it for what it's worth:

identitycheck-anok.blogspot.com/2008/02/same-old-battle-different-century.h...

[reply]

6/30/08

timethief

@Anok
I just read your opinion piece linked to above. I thank you for sharing it. Just reading it and reading the comments I have received has been an encouragement to me to become active in the group that David left you to head.

6/30/08

jackpayne

I am convinced that God is on my side. I am so powerfully motivated by this that each morning, upon arising, I am inspired to run into the streets shouting, "Death to fanatics."

[reply]

6/30/08

legbamel

Thank heavens you left the word "naked" out of that last sentence. Errr, I mean, too bad you did. Yeah.

6/30/08

thewriterspulse

I find it hard to believe that God is on anyone's side these days, to tell you the truth. I mean, how could he be?

[reply]

6/30/08

talen32

Why don't you just ask if Winnie the Pooh and Tigger are on the side of war...fairy tales all the same.

Wars in and of themselves are never just as innocent blood is always spilled. Human beings wrote every religious work so you can't look to them and say what any God would want.

[reply]

6/30/08

markstoneman

I posted on the blog, but I forgot one key element of your post: religion. Or rather I ignored it. This was never a war of religion, though there were certainly some nuts who acted otherwise. One dare not take the whole "God bless America" thing in our public rhetoric too literally. One dare not overgeneralize either, lest one end up making the same mistakes of those one might justifiably criticize.

[reply]

6/30/08

timethief

@Mark
I feel free to address the fact that America has what I see as "a religion in the political mix" problem simply because in your country I see two Presidential candidates, who are both "playing the faith card" during their political campaigns in an attempt to enhance their chances of being elected to office, just as Bush did.

If America was a country where church and state were separate and where Christians (primarily Evangelicals) did not wield such enormous power in the selection of political candidates from the bottom right to the top then I would be open to accepting your correction. However, this is not the case.
Read more here www.blogcatalog.com/discuss/entry/wake-up-america-god-is-not-on-your-side#c...
6/30/08

markstoneman

You fundamentally misunderstand the relationship between rhetoric and the law.
6/30/08

timethief

@Mark
"You fundamentally misunderstand the relationship between rhetoric and the law."

I'm sorry but I don't know what you mean. What I do know is that many Christians will be voting for the Presidential candidate of their choice based on what they perceive that candidate's Christian "virtues" to be, gained through listening to the rhetoric that they hear from the candidates, their campaign organizers and from their pulpits. Killing is not a Christian virtue and more killing is what the continuation of the war in Iraq will produce.
6/30/08

markstoneman

A lot of people just want to know that religion is part of the equation. It's like a sign of character for many. To go from there to seeking a candidate to do "God's work", whatever that is, is a reach. Sure, there are people who do this. But they do not form a majority here. Never have. They're just a vocal and at times powerful minority.

Comparisons among counties can help to understand one country, but sometimes it helps to get to know a country on its own terms too, because oftentimes those terms defy translation and so are not readily accessible to the outsider.
6/30/08

markstoneman

[duplicate]
6/30/08

timethief

@Mark
Discussion question: Do you believe that God, as depicted in the New Testament teachings attributed to Jesus, is on the side of America in this war on Iraq?

I defined the discussion question above in order to receive feedback that was specific to what I wrote about in my post. I am aware that the very significant minority of Evangelical Christians have invested a great deal of cash into the campaigns of the candidate, who they believe will be best positioned to "win the war in Iraq". The fact that this kind of thinking is not "Christian" in derivation seems to have totally escaped them. And, the fact that other voters may choose to vote for a candidate based on their "Christian character"prompted me to write from the point of view that I did in my blog post.
6/30/08

markstoneman

I'm sorry. I guess I don't understand what shameless blog promotions are. I thought we could discuss the shamelessly promoted post too.

Edited to add: I think, actually, that my responses speak directly to your question. Or did you just want a simple yes or no?
6/30/08

timethief

@Mark
Please understand that I worked most of the night and arose early to work even more hours. I'm tired and my vision is very poor so I'm having trouble focusing well enough to type answers to the comments I receive.

My intention with regard to this Shameless Blog Promotion post was to (1) encourage people to read my post, (2) think about the contents and then to (3) comment on my blog post. As it's customary to also pose a discussion question in these Shameless Blog Promotion threads I chose to define one that was specific to the contents of my post.

I'm not objecting to your contributions made to this thread. I deliberately chose to word the discussion question in a way that could be answered "yes" or "no" and I assumed that those who posted here would also provide a reason for the answer they gave.
6/30/08

MadameX

Mark, for some people everything that George Bush does is, in some sense, related to religion. Unfortunately, many evangelical Christians (at least, many I know) voted for Bush for one reason and one reason only: the belief that he "walks with God". How anyone could believe that is beyond me, but believe it many people did, and voted accordingly--and as such, presumably interpreted his actions as being led by God.
6/30/08

kevingoodman

In my opinion it’s a Catch 22 though it’s bound to garner some attention. I really don’t take favor of any position that creates further divisions. But on the flip side we need criticism and I don’t entirely see where timethief has went with this…so I’m still wondering if my U.S. citizenship or my religion also makes me evil.

But whether or not I support the war is with me a matter of political ideology. While I certainly believe there was false pretense for the war I will never ever say Saddam or leading Bathist didn’t deserve it. Whether or not Iraq will be better off is a matter nobody can ascertain for years to come. Though I hope the anger that has come about over the invasion doesn’t prevent us from striving towards helping the Iraqi’s rebuild what we destroyed or maintain security forces there. If we just pulled out and leave there would likely be a civil war – and the country will see lasting poverty.
6/30/08

markstoneman

That's the thing, Kevin. For me it has always been politics, but more to the point, for the most influential thinking pundits and politicians I've heard over the years, the issue has always been politics, in the broadest sense of course, including security and energy concerns.

6/30/08

DrowseyMonkey

I think many in the US don't agree with Bush, didn't I see a poll somewhere where his likability factor is really low? And I do remember that it was a Canadian who coined the term 'axis of evil' lol ... David Frum I think. Crazies are in every country I'm afraid. Thankfully the tide is turning.

I do cringe everytime I hear the god bless america phrase ... it's odd to me. Religion & politics do not mix. Even if the politician is just using a catch phrase.

[reply]

6/30/08

satijournal

George Carlin did a good bit about the "God bless America" concept. It's pretty arrogant to think God likes us better than all the other countries. A big part of the problem with the current administration and the "war on terror" is we have religious fanatics fighting against religious fanatics. It's a recipe for disaster as has been demonstrated.
6/30/08

Anok

One of the churches here has a sign that says:

"America Bless God"

And it makes my dyslexic mind go bonkers every time I see it

6/30/08

opinionstreams

@rich - I probably wouldn't disagree with you that the support of some evangelical Christian groups emboldened Bush. But I think timethief's point is not that simple. Timethief is singling out Christians and laying at their feet the blame for this mess, and I just don't agree. The fact is that circa 2004 the majority of this country - most Americans and not just Christian Americans - supported the war. The war is no more the fault of Christians than it is the fault of morticians. Fault lays at the foot of the Bush Administration and the lies it fed to the American people, to the U.N. and to the greater global community.

[reply]

6/30/08

richrf

I agree that most Americans supported the war at the time (I personally was in utter disbelief at the sham). Christians were a core constituency, but by no means were alone. Certainly, the vast majority of Jews, at the time supported the war. Lieberman is positively bonkers over it. He would like one with Iran also.

6/30/08

PotatoChef

I don't think Jesus is on anyone's side, during any war, for any reason, ever. It is a mistake, if you truly believe what you wrote, to think that the Iraq was would be viewed any differently than any other war.

A "Just War"? Give me a break.

What's the old saying? Or did I make it up: Where you stand depends on where you sit...

Jesus would stand for no war EVER..for no reason..EVER..with no favorite sides..EVER

Bush is not any better or any worse than any other president. Kennedy almost got us into a nuclear war because of his incompetence. Was Jesus on his side? I know luck was.

[reply]

6/30/08

timethief

@maskedmilliinaire
"I don't think Jesus is on anyone's side, during any war, for any reason, ever."

Thanks for replying to the discussion question. We are in agreement. There is no basis for upholding any form of violence as being blessed by God/Jesus and that's exactly what "God is on our side" implies.

6/30/08

thewriterspulse

Every country has it's fanatics, it's nationalists, it's lunatics. I don't see why people expect America to be any different. No one's hands are clean.

I haven't heard the "God is on our side" argument for a long, long time, and I live in the friggin' heartland. And when I did (if I did...I'm not ever sure at this point), it was from a minority of crazed evangelicals. Yes, they're loud, and yes...they voted for George Bush because they felt he would act in their interests. However, they've since felt betrayed, from what I remember.

Not that I think any of that matters...like others have said, it's not that simple of an issue, and not everyone in America is like that. Many people unquestioningly backed the Iraq War because of fear, a need for retribution of some kind, and a general lack of information.

I'm not even particularly fond of religion, but I wouldn't blame it all on Christians (however, if the point is that people are hypocrites...well, then, yeah, no argument there). Things are far more complicated.

[reply]

6/30/08

timethief

@thewriterspulse
"I'm not even particularly fond of religion, but I wouldn't blame it all on Christians (however, if the point is that people are hypocrites...well, then, yeah, no argument there). Things are far more complicated."

I want to encourage you to click through and read my post. I did not at any time " blame it all on Christians". My post was a wake up call to Christians, and to any other Americans who may be inclined to depict the war in Iraq as either a "Holy war" or "a just war". thistimethisspace.com/2008/06/29/wake-up-america-god-is-not-on-your-side/

6/30/08

cooper

"Do you believe that God, as depicted in the New Testament teachings attributed to Jesus, is on the side of America in this war on Iraq?"

I don't believ ein god as depicted in the New Testament
nor do I believe JC was the son of God, so I can't really answer this.

The ideology which drove us to war was not necessarily a religious ideology it was a new conservative ideology of profiteering.

"American Presidential election race is on at that both candidates are going to play "the faith card" and maintain that the war in Iraq is " a just war" Did I miss something? Obama has never made such a claim.

The Senate however was warned once in October and one in February in an eloquent speech by Robert Byrd that this was a horrible and wrong thing to do.

www.commondreams.org/views03/0212-07.htm

[reply]

6/30/08

acousticguitarist

@TT "Do you believe that God, as depicted in the New Testament teachings attributed to Jesus, is on the side of America in this war on Iraq?"

No, simple as that. The only worthwhile religious war is Kurushektra and that is within the heart of a human being.

[reply]

6/30/08

acousticguitarist

But Iraq is an oil war not a religious war
6/30/08

timethief

@acousticguitrists
"No, simple as that. The only worthwhile religious war is Kurushektra and that is within the heart of a human being."

I agree with you.
6/30/08

timethief

I have not made any claim whatsoever in my blog post or in this thread that the invasion and war in Iraq is a religious war.

Indeed I have stated here that invasion of Iraq and the killing of thousands of people was orchestrated for one aim. The aim that underlies the invasion of and war with Iraq was and still is an attempt to establish US hegemony in the oil-rich Middle East and transform Iraq into a platform for further military aggression in the region. See www.blogcatalog.com/discuss/entry/wake-up-america-god-is-not-on-your-side#c...

My blog post was simply a wake up call to Christians who may be tempted to depict the war in Iraq as either a "Holy War" or "a just war". It is neither.
6/30/08

acousticguitarist

cool...just thought I'd mention it not being a religious war and any thought of it being that by any person would be bordering on insanity

6/30/08

TomUsher

Timethief,

Your position on this subject is refreshing. I Dugg your post and left a comment there, joined your MyBlogLog community, and posted about your article on my blog. www.realliberalchristianchurch.org/wordpress/?p=2353. That post links to your blog article and to this thread as well.

I'm usually not this thorough concerning the efforts of others, but your post and thread here are well worth it.

Bless you.

[reply]

6/30/08

Chrislag

I just wanted to point to you T Thief what every good American (like me) knows in your blog post:

you spelled "Check" wrong.
"Blank Check" not "Blank Cheque"
(my American Spell checker agrees)

[reply]

6/30/08

markstoneman

I always thought that North American English was pretty consistent, but I guess this example proves me wrong. Didn't know the Canadians followed the British on this. Do they do this for other words too?
6/30/08

timethief

@dragonlager & Mark
Since the introduction of computers to the masses more and more Canadians are resorting to the use of American spellings. I am one of them but from time to time the English spellings from my past surface and, when it comes to "cheques" I find it hard to use checks as a correct spelling.

6/30/08

BTW...that Christians are "operating in a state of denial and delusion" is a gross generalization. Some, maybe, yes...but to generalize in such a way is bigoted.

[reply]

6/30/08

timethief

@TheBigRuskie
As you are a Christian I'm disappointed to see how limited your inclination to converse in within the context of the New Testament covenant is. Setting that aside, it's good to see that you are returning to the thread and I'm hopeful that you will elevate the tone of the discussion and enhance it with the introduction of relevant and meaningful material any time now.
6/30/08

TheBigRuski

^ was she derogatory and complimentary at the same time? How is that possible?

"You're an idiot, but boy it's good to see you. Maybe you can say what I want to hear...any time now" (tapping her foot)
6/30/08

timethief

@TheBigRuskie
Re: www.blogcatalog.com/discuss/entry/wake-up-america-god-is-not-on-your-side#c...

This is my opinion as expressed in my post:

"Christians in America who proclaim “we must support the troops fighting for our country in Iraq” must be in a delusional state of denial to maintain a belief that God is on their side.

To give everything for one’s country is to worship one’s country. In other words for those who take this position nationalism becomes religion and patriotism turns into idolatry, which is neither moral nor rational."

If you do not make such proclamations and you likewise do not espouse the belief that God is on the American side in the war in Iraq then there is nothing to object to.

6/30/08

wehireu

“Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s” Matthew 22 21. Do you truly understand what this means. The state and god are two separate things and what you render to them is based on what they are. The coin of the realm is not the religion of the realm. When the two mix together you get fanaticism.

[reply]

6/30/08

timethief

@wehireu
Indeed we are in agreement on what scripture expresses and we share the same wisdom. I challenged myself to write the blog post in question without even once resorting to scripture references. As a person who could read and write and recite scripture by rote at the age of 4 it was a difficult thing to do but I did manage to do it.

6/30/08

*** ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ***
If you have not read the blog post I am shamelessly promoting in this thread please do so before posting a comment. It can be found here thistimethisspace.com/2008/06/29/wake-up-america-god-is-not-on-your-side/

When posting please confine your response to answering the discussion question.

Discussion question: Do you believe that God, as depicted in the New Testament teachings attributed to Jesus, is on the side of America in this war on Iraq?

Thanks, in advance, for your cooperation.
*** ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ***

[reply]

6/30/08

satijournal

Being a Jew who practices Buddhism, I don't buy into your premise. I do have one question, though: Did you or did you not vote for George W. Bush?
6/30/08

timethief

@satijournal
Re: www.blogcatalog.com/discuss/entry/wake-up-america-god-is-not-on-your-side#c...
I'm not sure if your question is directed to me or to someone else. In case you are directing it to me I will provide my answer. I am a Canadian. I did not vote for Bush.
6/30/08

satijournal

You're alright, then.
7/01/08

timethief

@satijournal
Have you asked TheBigRuskie that question?
She asked with a mischievous grin ... lol
[joking]

6/30/08

One more time, my answer is I don't know...and I don't think that God is rooting for individual countries per se.

However, He is rooting for all of us...no matter what country we are from, how many times we've sinned, or who our president is!

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. John 3:16

I notice that he did not say "For God so loved America" or "For God so loved democracies."

[reply]

6/30/08

Lucyvp

Very good post - I hope you don't mind, I started a discussion based on your article at our forum (this topic is right up our alley!)

www.planet-flipside.com/vboard/showthread.php?p=73870#post73870

[reply]

6/30/08

timethief

@Lucyvp
I have no objection at all to you sharing my post with others. Best wishes re: your discussion.

This post has been submitted to Digg
digg.com/political_opinion/Wake_up_America_God_is_not_on_your_side/who
and it has also been stumbled.
I would like to express my thanks to those who thought it was worthy of submission.

6/30/08

gerryPlanetEarth

First of all the title of this discussion is somewhat blasphemous and offensive...

Second of all the invasion of Iraq would not have happened had there been no 911 and the destruction of the World Trade Center...

Third of all there was no reason not to beleive Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction as he was supplied such weapons by American and European consortiums to battle the Ayatollah and Iran....Saddam Hussein used chemical weapons on the Iranians and his own people...

regarding your vague specific "Discussion question":

"Do you believe that God, as depicted in the New Testament teachings attributed to Jesus, is on the side of America in this war on Iraq?"

a)I do not believe in anything...When you look at a life form on Planet Earth or at our solar system you either see divinity or you don't...

b)"the New Testament teachings attributed to Jesus"...Who exactly "attributed" the so-called New Testament teachings to be the actual teachings of Jesus ?

c)Some people believe the eternal creator speaks to mankind through only their "unattributed" books...Some people believe the eternal creator speaks to mankind through nature and weather...Beetles eating trees, bees dying off, animal and plant extinctions,earthquakes, tornados, drought,floods,hurricanes. tsunamis,climate change, melting polar ice-caps,etc. does seem like quite a strong message to some people...

d)My final answer to your question is I don't really know...

[reply]

7/01/08

timethief

@gerryplanetearth
Well, as you stated yesterday that you are not a Christian I believe we can consider your allegation "somewhat blasphemous" in that context www.blogcatalog.com/discuss/entry/is-atheism-a-religion#comment_447235

Discussion question: "Do you believe that God, as depicted in the New Testament teachings attributed to Jesus, is on the side of America in this war on Iraq?"

Answer: "My final answer to your question is I don't really know...

Thanks for posting to this thread to share your final answer to the only discussion question posed here.
7/01/08

acousticguitarist

Gerry that's interesting, I've looked and looked at the heading and can't work out where the Blashemy is
7/01/08

Chrislag

gerryplanetEarth. The title may seem blasphemous.

But it actually is an old American idiom. "God on our side".(circa WW 2)
Not all American held it. Its certainly less used today. But this phrase is often used for such debates on political attitude in the U.S., usually less publicly.
7/01/08

acousticguitarist

And there was a Dylan song
7/01/08

timethief

@acousticguitarist & dragonlager
I'm not worried about anything here and I wonder why anyone else would be.
7/01/08

timethief

@acousticguitarist
There are two somewhat related threads to this one.

Voodookobra's thread - Would you vote for a competent atheist president who largely-- or perfectly-- reflected your political views? Why or why not?
www.blogcatalog.com/discuss/entry/yesno-would-you-vote-for

gerryplanetearth's older thread - Even wikipedia has difficlty defining the term Atheism...
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism
Is Atheism a religious belief ?
Here's the link to where I posted the lyrics to Bob Dylan's God on Our Side www.blogcatalog.com/discuss/entry/is-atheism-a-religion#comment_446093
7/01/08

gerryPlanetEarth

@timethief

"Well, as you stated yesterday that you are not a Christian I believe we can consider your allegation "somewhat blasphemous" in that context"

What does not being a Christian have to do with the simple observation that the title of this discussion is blasphemous and offensive ?

7/01/08

BrazenTeacher

Brazen's favorite quote: (well ONE of them)

"Don't interact with ignorant people. They drag you down to their level and beat you with experience."

It's seems that sometimes bloggers use antagonistic tactics to unsettle others. I've often found that people who antagonize do it because they would rather disarm opposition- then rely on the strength of their commentary. It's part of the reason I avoid BC discussions. Timethief I believe you share my sentiments in this??

[reply]

7/01/08

timethief

@brazen teacher
Without doubt we share the same reflection. There's only one question to answer in this thread. And I'm relying on everyone to stay on track and answer it or, if they can't or won't then I'm assuming they will post to another thread.

7/01/08

thefly

Well, the teaching's of Jesus aren't reflective to the teachings of God or rather what God has done according to the Bible. Jesus has never justified hatred, murder or violence but God saw it necessary to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah, to destroy Job's life and play the bringer of plagues on the Egyptians. So to imply the teaching's of Jesus are reflective of God's actions is a mistake in itself TimeTheif, so you cant argue when American's say "God is on our side" WITH the teaching's of Jesus because those teaching's aren't meant for God they are meant for us humans, for us people. Hence, why people believe God is on their side. Based on his actions.

But the way I see it is that God is on no one's side but rather you are on God's side.

Buzz Buzz.

[reply]

7/01/08

acousticguitarist

the Fly

I don't usually go in to bat for our Christian friends, but I disagree about Jesus's teachings not being of God (whatever God is perceived to be). Here's my reasoning, in Hinduism although God does not have attributes, is beyond both good and evil, from age to age an Avatar appears (which I don't beliebe Jesus to be). The role of an Avatar is to uphold Dharma when Dharma declines ( Dharma being the path of Righteousness. Jesus's life in any community or culture is a reflection of those principles that regardless of what religion a person is from, are in line with the upholding of Dharma.

There was a beautiful seen in the Mahbharata movie where Krishna sat betwen the oldset of the Pandava's (good guys) and the oldest of the Kaurava's ( the bad guys) and said, I love you both, he turn to the oldest Pandava and said "But I must support you".

Ultimately all teachings and beliefs must fade away in freedom because they are an obstacle in the way and only point to God and are in no way an experience of God.
7/01/08

thefly

I didn't say it wasn't OF God, I said it wasn't meant FOR God. So, you cant use the teaching's to assume anything about God, you see what Im saying. I think you misunderstood my point.
7/01/08

acousticguitarist

Oh Ok apologies ...well it was a nice little rave anyway :-)

I read "the teaching's of Jesus aren't reflective to the teachings of God" as being "not OF God"
7/01/08

thefly

Yeah I see what you are saying. What I was saying though, was that the teachings arent reflective to what God has done according to the Bible. and I accept your apology, hehe. Buzz Buzz.
7/01/08

timethief

If your would like to read my blog posts and leave a comment on my blog I @thefly
If you click through and leave a comment on my blog post I will answer it there. Here in this thread there is only one discussion question to respond to.

Discussion question: Do you believe that God, as depicted in the New Testament teachings attributed to Jesus, is on the side of America in this war on Iraq?
7/01/08

thefly

I did answer your question TimeThief. If you re-read my post you will see my opinion. Let me quote it for you.

"But the way I see it is that God is on no one's side but rather you are on God's side."

But let me explain what I was talking about; I was saying your argument has flaws in it and one cant assume anything about God. So I agree that Americans are wrong to think God is on their side but I also think its wrong to think that he isnt. You see what Im saying. This argument makes God a tangible thing one can have on his side and no one elses. So it trivializes God and that I think is wrong on both parts; yours and this idealism you refer to.

Buzz Buzz
7/01/08

kat822

couldn't agree with you more fly, you are a smart little insect

7/01/08

comment removed by the community.

[reply]

7/01/08

achuna

In my humble opinion, How could Jesus be on the side of a evil govt policy. the invasion of Irag is not to liberate the Iraqi people but to veto or control the Oil in middle East. There were never WMD and the sad thing is that no one could ever strongly react against Bush's policy. I am happy to see many people of Amercia is agaisnt war on Irag. And I should also say that the unfinished work or policy by senior bush was complete by his son. can I say there is always war behind every Bush?

[reply]

7/01/08

thefly

Irag? Do you mean Iraq?
7/01/08

achuna

comment removed by the community.

7/01/08

Lol..soddom and Gamorrah, The plagues of Egypt, The Great flood....God created 'Shock and awe' lol....he's probably laughing at our pitiful attempts at mass destruction, genocide and shocking and aweing.

[reply]

7/01/08

XanthePat

Thats the old testament. I have read through this thread, and not one Muslim point of veiw? I wonder why?
7/01/08

timethief

@XanthePat
Perhaps Muslims don't have bumper stickers on their vehicles indicating that they believe God is on their side. If not then the tourists I hear saying these things in my local coffee shop and driving vehicles with flags and bumper stickers here in Canada must belong to people who have another belief system.

7/01/08

markstoneman

I'm sorry, TimeThief, but I have to remark on your repeated references to your specific question, which some are not answering. It is not one I can take seriously, and I am not surprised if others do not answer it directly either. On the other hand, a great many of us take *you* seriously, so we read your post and responded as best we could. Personally, I should think taking what you can get here would be good enough.

[reply]

7/01/08

timethief

@Mark
I have posted a single question in this Shameless Blog Promotion thread. Members can either choose to answer it or choose to post to another thread. They also have the option of clicking through to my blog post and leaving a comment there, if they so desire.
7/01/08

MadameX

Timethief, just guessing, but Mark may have been referring to the fact that you have re-posted the exact question six times in this thread (not counting the original post) and at least three times reprimanded people for not responding to it directly.
7/01/08

timethief

@MadameX
And your point would be?
Indeed I have posted the question repeatedly to draw attention to the fact that it's only the responses made to the question that I am choosing to give any credence to. I reprimanded no one. I reminded some people they had not answered the question and that was all. I don't know why either Mark or you are posting now but to be clear I don't need a nanny or a dutch uncle.
7/01/08

MadameX

Oh, come on. We both know your reading comprehension isn't that low! Mark commented on your repeated references. You disingenuously claimed to have posted only a single question. I was simply clarifying (though I'm quite sure that was unnecessary) that a single question posted seven times in a thread certainly qualifies as "repeated reference".

So I guess my "point", if you want to bring it right out on the table, is don't play semantic games. "Repeated" is a simple concept.

(Naturally, you entirely changed your response above after this was posted, but we're all used to that, so I'm not changing what I've written above)
7/01/08

timethief

@Madmae X
"(Naturally, you entirely changed your response above after this was posted, but we're all used to that, so I'm not changing what I've written above)"

I removed one sentence. It was the first one and now I have put it back. It reads: "And your point would be?"

You have registered your disapproval of my re-posting of the discussion question and my reminders to people who have not answered it. My response is that if you do not wish to answer the discussion question I have posted then perhaps you could consider posting to another thread.
7/01/08

MadameX

I answered the question quite a ways up the thread, yesterday.

If you're going to continue to reprimand people for not sticking to your agenda, you should probably keep better records.

Re your latest (assuming it doesn't change again), I have NOT "registered my disapproval" (though that hardly bears saying, since everyone here can read exactly what I said). I pointed out that, despite your pretense at innocence in the "I posted a single question" response, you had, in fact, posted repetitively as Mark pointed out.

I couldn't care less how many times you ask the same question. I simply favor accuracy.
7/01/08

timethief

@Madame X
Actually I have a pretty good memory. Indeed you did answer the question yesterday as did Mark so that's why I am surprised by this dutch uncle and nanny routine today.

I have broken no rule that I'm aware of. I asked a single discussion question in the original post I made to create this thread. When BC members posted to this thread without answering it I posted the question again. And I do not understand why you are going on about this.
7/01/08

MadameX

"And I do not understand why you are going on about this."

Again, you radically underestimate the intelligence of everyone in this community; perhaps you're hoping that no one will notice that my "going on" about this is in fact a string of direct responses to YOU?

You're right, though--it is a waste of time. I'll leave you to cut and paste your question over and over and over again and play nanny and dutch uncle to anyone who doesn't answer to your specifications. Enjoy.
2/07/09

gerryPlanetEarth

What does the term Dutch Uncle actually mean ?

7/01/08

Jeunelle

All I have to say is God made some Laws and when God speaks
and the word leaves God's mouth, whatever God said will come to pass
and if you aren't doing what God requested, you will eventually die and pass.

IDOLISM is one the WORST sins a man can commit.

This Country and all associated with it will be destroyed, burned by fires.
If you are busy taking part in it's Idolism, you too will be destroyed.

I wonder where you all are going to run to, cause there ain't no place to run to.

Good luck with that while I transcend this hell hole. It's been great.

[reply]

7/01/08

timethief

@Jeunelle
Thanks for your reply. You have expressed yourself in different words that I used but I think that they amount to the same thing. See the second paragraph below.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Christians in America who proclaim “we must support the troops fighting for our country in Iraq” must be in a delusional state of denial to maintain a belief that God is on their side.

“To give everything for one’s country is to worship one’s country. In other words for those who take this position nationalism becomes religion and patriotism turns into idolatry, which is neither moral nor rational.”
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
7/01/08

Jeunelle

You know TT not too long ago we had a protest here in Boston
where some people were trying to impeach Bush and I asked them why haven't they already and they told me...
"We were afraid because Bush told everyone that either you're with me or your against me".
"We were AFRAID that we may be singled out as TRAITORS to our country".

So basically FEAR played a hand in it.

They were AFRAID to challenge a Government that was busy imposing their Laws
and Punishments on other Countries Illegally.

Do you know what the body count of women and children who died in this war in Iraq
and other Middle Eastern countries is right now?

It is in the hundred thousands.

Close to 2000 American Soldiers dead and about close to 5000 who died in the twin towers somehow doesn't stand close to the hundredth's of thousands who are been blown apart
by bombs and other weapons in Iraq and the Middle East.

In my view Bush is just another Hitler. Same dog, new day.
Those in power will always abuse power.

Here we have a President who claims to be Christian yet he is quoting words that Christ spoke "If you're not with me, you're against me"
and using these words as the tone which he set to go to his so called "Holy War".

I agree with you that God is on NO ONE'S side in any war.

Either you are on God's side or kiss your arse goodbye.

I also want to make it perfectly clear that GOD does not kill
It is YOU who kill yourselves by not following the Laws which GOD gave you
to stay ALIVE AND FULL OF LIFE.

Once you go against God's house of life you pass into Death, so continue to be stubborn,
SIN and PERISH.

Those who are busy MURDERING innocent people to have their Rule on Earth will be Judged by God
and God's sentence is Final.
7/01/08

gmoney

@Jeunelle DAMN GURL So spicy, so sassy......
"In my view Bush is just another Hitler. Same dog, new day.
Those in power will always abuse power.

Here we have a President who claims to be Christian yet he is quoting words that Christ spoke "If you're not with me, you're against me"
and using these words as the tone which he set to go to his so called "Holy War"."

Right Right Right and RIGHT........ I got chills when I read that!
7/01/08

timethief

@Jeunelle
You have said: Here we have a President who claims to be Christian yet he is quoting words that Christ spoke "If you're not with me, you're against me" and using these words as the tone which he set to go to his so called "Holy War".

Right on. He not only appears to be a moron, he also appears to be out of touch with the living God, who he claims exists and also claims to have a personal relationship with. Setting that aside his behavior in office, seems to be that of a war criminal.

7/01/08

lotusb

Hey Timethief..for once I agree with you!! I don't belive that God takes any position in war. The bible teaches that war is simply a sign of the times, that we are getting closer to the point where God is going to rid the world of their sin (and sinners). Why would he take sides in something he is soon to wipe out completely?

[reply]

7/01/08

timethief

@Losb
Thanks for your response. "I don't believe that God takes any position in war." It's also my understanding gained from scripture that believers are meant to be on God's side, rather than the other way around.
7/01/08

timethief

oops - duplicate
7/01/08

lotusb

Yep, right there with ya. Good topic!

7/01/08

gmoney

Hey TT... you seem a bit confrontational in this tread, are you feeling ok, do you have a fever. I have not been on for a few days and I almost passed out when I saw that you are starting a double whammy post...... Religion and Politics all rolled into one!!!! You GO GIRL!

OK to your question, I have never read the new or the old testament I am not religious but I am a bit spiritual.

From what I know and understand about the bible.... there will be a lot of people going to hell for this war and other wars. That is if you are a christian and believe in HELL.

At the end of the day this war was predicated on lies, oil, love for country and GOD. We as Americans need to stand up and say WE as a country were wrong.

As a country we need to look in the mirror and fight our own war .... there needs to be a war on education, a real war on drugs, teenage pregnancy and many other issues.

I love my country but I am disgusted by our policies......

[reply]

7/01/08

timethief

@gmoney
The influence brought to bear on this forum by the majority of active members posting to it who appear to be Americans has stimulated my thinking and I have reconsidered my blogging topics in light of this. As far as the double whammy goes I have decided that I will be writing controversial posts from time to time. Thanks for replying to the discussion question and your Go Girl! encouragement. I appreciate it.

7/01/08

supermodel

Well since I'm not a Christian or have any religious beliefs, I would say if there was a God, he would not take any sides. I believe since America was wrong in the first place, this "God" would surely not be on our side.

[reply]

7/01/08

timethief

@supermodel
Thanks for answering the question I posed. I appreciate the fact that you did so.

7/01/08

kevingoodman

I actually think America's religious policies are pretty liberal. Hell, we gave Anton's Leveys church of Satan official and bonafide state recognition. Witchcraft and Paganism are both recognized as legal religions by the U.S. Armed Forces chaplain service.

In contrast many European countries such as Spain and Poland have trouble giving any recognition to anything not Catholic.

[reply]

7/01/08

Anok

The recognition of pagan beliefs by the military and country are still on shaky grounds.

I don't remember how it turned out - but does anyone remember the legal battle over having a pentacle on a soldier's gravestone to represent his religion? The military refused to allow it. (I don't know if the ACLU managed to win that one or not).

There are still a lot of prejudices against Pagans, unfortunately. Just a few years ago there was a divorce/child custody case where the judge's ruling was affected by the fact that the parents were Pagan, and he wanted to prevent the child from growing up "being exposed to it". I can't remember how that one turned out, either.
7/01/08

kevingoodman

I vaguely remember that debate. It is absolutely on shaky grounds but ultimately it won't be overturned (perhaps) delayed. Tax except status, marriage rights, and wiccans commisioned officers as chaplains.
7/01/08

Anok

Wait, what? I haven't had a moment to brew hat coffee yet
7/01/08

kevingoodman

You would have to do some research but I believe the Army has commissioned chaplains of the wiccan faith.
7/01/08

Anok

Oh, OK I wasn't sure if that was what you meant or not. The last I heard was that Christian Chaplains were simply acting as counselors to Pagans, but there were no priests or priestess of the faith being hired or enlisted.

That could have changed, of course.
7/01/08

timethief

@Kevin
re: www.blogcatalog.com/discuss/entry/wake-up-america-god-is-not-on-your-side#c...

I do think that America's policies seem to be liberal. However, don't you think that sometimes appearances can be deceiving? I have a strong impression that being a Christian candidate is better looked upon by the voting populace at election time than being a member of any other faith group in America is.
7/01/08

kevingoodman

A good friend of mine whose intellect I trusted used to warn me against making easy generalizations. Obviously we all make generalizations because we simply don’t have time to put everything to logical scrutiny. There is almost always more than meets the eye.

You’re right - any competent political advisor will advice his candidate to become more active in faith. I don’t know the stats but the majority of Americans believe in a god and most take a Christian interpretation. I still don’t know what kind of statement you’re trying to make.

For instance many families have sons and daughters over there who are terrified for their children’s lives. I am guessing that most of them pray for comfort and for hope and not for justification.

On the other hand I am impressed with the measures the administration went to after the 9-11 attack to educate Americans that Islam was not to blame. The few Muslims I knew reported that other Americans acted awkward around them rather than hostile.

7/01/08

Discussion question: Do you believe that God, as depicted in the New Testament teachings attributed to Jesus, is on the side of America in this war on Iraq?

Given that the entire Bible, whatever testament, was written over many many many hundreds of years by hundreds of different people, none of whome were Rabbi ben yosef or God himself..I would think it's a moot point. It's also interesting to note the lack of knowledge here. The 'wilderness' where Jesus was tempted by the devil refers to a set of caves out from Jerusalem where men of thought would go to 'think'. It is widely supported that Jesus went into the wilderness to review his options regarding peaceful protest and violent (The way of Barabbas before him, who was also heralded as the Messiah at first). The temptation refers to this choice. I wouldn't say that Jesus was anti-war or anti-violence. He chose to try a different path is all. And although it isn't mentioned in the New testament (choose your version) I think it's still interesting to debate the evidence prior that suggests that God is a Handfisted murderer who uses fear and force to control 'his people' Sounds like a certain kind of regime that isnt that popular these days. Given that mostly, wars are over or about religion (the last great divider of mankind) I would think it made more sense to have a war about oil, or imaginary WMD's...a refreshing change if nothing else.

It does make me laugh however, that anyone would bring GOD into a debate about a conflict and ask if he is or is not on one side or the other..seems absolutely ridiculous to me that anyone would even wonder. We are talking about wholesale killing here..that is what war is...why would he be for anyone?????

But this topic, the heated comments, the bitching and the snide sideswipes just go to show that if you mention his name and state even the most minimal of views one way or another...it WILL kick off. Seriously..religion is bad. It's like playing with fire after a petrol bath.

[reply]

7/01/08

timethief

@DVS
Thanks for taking the time to post and share your point of view. I appreciate it.

I also thought that it was appalling to hear Americans seated in my local restaurant here in a remote spot in Canada going on and on about God being on their side in Iraq. That's why I wrote my blog post.

There is no permission in the New Testament teachings attributed to Christ for his followers to replace God by reeking vengeance on and killing Iraqi women and children because their leader was an evil murderer. The teachings attributed to Jesus clearly challenge his followers to love unconditionally, to love their enemies even as they love themselves.

7/01/08

Lol..blatant post trimming. Democracy died today.

[reply]

7/01/08

Anok

Huh?
7/01/08

timethief

@DVS
re: www.blogcatalog.com/discuss/entry/wake-up-america-god-is-not-on-your-side#c...
If you are referring to my decision to remove two posts I made today to another forum thread then I assure you that the death democracy was not evidenced by doing so.

I assessed the contents of the OP in the other thread and decided that the post looked like it could be a veiled attempt to launch a personal attack on myself and this thread and, that it could be aimed at censoring me or having this thread deleted.

Then I made a pragmatic decision based on forum observation. I considered that every time someone posted to the other thread that doing so drove the thread up to the top of the forum and then, I chose to remove my posts so one would respond to them and keep that thread rising to the top.

7/01/08

Hoh?

[reply]

7/01/08

Anok

Heehee?

7/01/08

RTBjr73

Sure would be nice if the world had no borders, no need for papers to travel, no worries for war, religion, etc.

[reply]

7/01/08

Yeah...wouldn't be the world though would it.

[reply]

7/01/08

I believe there are undertones here that are so subtle even my super-senses missed them.

[reply]

7/01/08

Theresa111

Speaking from the heart, I do not know if God is on any country's side, but I know He is on mine. I have always belonged to Him.

[reply]

7/01/08

timethief

@Theresa
Hi there and thanks for posting.

7/01/08

Oh dear.

It may be time to enter the bunker.......

[reply]

7/01/08

Theresa111

I am certain you shan't be alone in that bunker. Toodles.

7/01/08

Wisco

Since this is in "shameless blog promotion," allow me to promote my blog and appeal to authority at once

griperblade.blogspot.com/2008/04/more-catholic-than-jfk.html

[Pope Benedict XVI] has bluntly said that Bush's pre-emptive attack on Iraq and the subsequent occupation of that country does not follow the Catholic doctrine of a "just war."

Before the invasion, then-Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger was asked whether the attack might be considered morally justified under the just-war standard. "Certainly not," he replied, explaining that "the damage would be greater than the values one hopes to save."

Rejecting arguments made by the president and many of his supporters that the United States needed to take the lead, this pope argued, "It should never be the responsibility of just one nation to make decisions for the world."

Not only isn't Iraq a "just war," but there may not be any such thing.

[reply]

7/01/08

timethief

@wisco
Thanks for your post above this including the link. You have said: "Not only isn't Iraq a "just war," but there may not be any such thing. I concur with your statement.
In my blog post I tried to faithfully present the God of the New Testament, Jesus Christ and his teachings as depicted in scripture. thistimethisspace.com/2008/06/29/wake-up-america-god-is-not-on-your-side/
(1) My first premise was that Christians ought to be aware that there is no support found in the New Testament for proclaiming “God is on our side” in any situation, including war. If anything these teachings appear to indicate that believers are expected to be on God’s side and not the reverse.
(2) My second premise is that there is no support found in the New Testament for Christians to take the position that any war is a “Holy War” or “a just war”. The New Testament teachings indicate that Jesus abhorred violence of any kind and that he challenged his followers to become peacemakers and not, warriors.
I thought I did a good job of it. I do try to do my best under all circumstances but like everyone else sometimes I fall short.
P.S. I left you a comment.
7/02/08

Wisco

@timethief

I liked this; "If anything these teachings appear to indicate that believers are expected to be on God’s side and not the reverse."

That's a very good point. Allowing others to dictate your beliefs is equal to not having any. If you believe in Christian tenets, then those tenets are pretty much fixed. Letting people spin them is akin to not actually believing at all.

7/02/08

Here are some recent related news stories links:

Tuesday July 1 2008 The Early Word: You’ve Got to Have Faith
In another sign that his campaign is reaching out to evangelical voters, Senator Barack Obama plans to announce his support for expanding President Bush’s faith-based programs in a speech on religion he will deliver at Eastside Community Ministry in Zanesville, Ohio this afternoon.
thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/07/01/the-early-word-youve-got-to-have-fai...

Tuesday July 1 2008 Obama courts conservatives with new faith program
Taking a page from President Bush, Democrat Barack Obama said Tuesday he wants to expand White House efforts to steer social service dollars to religious groups, risking protests in his own party with his latest aggressive reach for voters who usually vote Republican. www.guardian.co.uk/world/feedarticle/7623499

[reply]

7/02/08

br3adman

Don't use our money It clearly says In God we Trust.

[reply]

7/02/08

timethief

Indeed that slogan does appear on your money.
7/02/08

jadedconformist

So why is our dollar weak right now? I don't get it. We need to put God in all caps. Oh, it is in all caps. I really don't know what else to say then. Maybe replace the presidents' faces with a bust of God? But I know certain religions in America think it's wrong to put up any images or likeness of Christ. Eh, forget them. In JESUS we trust. We don't want any ambiguity here.
7/02/08

timethief

@br3adman & erick180
According to New Testament teachings attributed to Jesus, God and Mammon are two masters and you can't serve both. According to other New Testament teachings the love of money is the root of all evil. However, this is not the issue that is being discussed in this thread.

Would you two like to answer the discussion question I have posed in the original post of this thread? I'd appreciate it if you did.

7/02/08

[reply]

7/02/08

jadedconformist

timethief - I understand your sentiments about wanting each post to contribute directly to the question posed, however to imply that I cannot respond to a comment within the thread is a bit much. I understand you wouldn't want it to go off-topic, but really, sometimes the direct topic inevitably creates side topics to which people will respond to. I was being tongue-in-cheek on my previous comment.

I'm afraid I'm unable to satisfy your question since the question postulates 1) that Jesus is God, and 2) that there is a side that any deity is trying to be on in the first place. I do understand that you are taking these stances for the purpose of playing devil's advocate and not necessarily because this is what you believe - so I have to say that as far as this question pertains to me, the issue is moot.

I wish to add if you want to remain objective and emotionally unattached, as you stated, then the title ought to be changed, because you are somewhat implying that God isn't on America's side from the start, and renders your declared stance of objectivity a bit off kilter. To write up a blog that states we can't be positive about a side a deity may be one and then saying up front that this same deity isn't on a particular side is a bit contradictory - however, I do see the greater points you are making and I respect your vigilance in writing this post.

[reply]

7/02/08

timethief

@eric180
Thanks for taking the time and energy to respond to my question. I do really do appreciate it.
7/02/08

jadedconformist

Thx

7/02/08

Although my feed has not yet updated, I have now published a second post pertaining to this topic. The post is a guest post written by a fellow BC member Geoffrey www.blogcatalog.com/user/GeoffreysPlace

Here is an excerpt:
"Shadow projection is a process whereby one expresses those dark parts of oneself by its attribution to another. It is a little like unconscious blame, blaming someone else for something that one cannot face about oneself.

The Nazis did shadow projection en masse to the Jews. There might be some justification to argue that the Iraq war is underpinned by the same dynamic."

America Awake! Killing is not a Christian virtue
thistimethisspace.com/2008/07/02/america-awake-killing-is-not-a-christian-v...

[reply]

7/02/08

hishaman

timethief ... I admire you excellent way of writing your articles!

I wanted to thank you from this good article, and I would like to say that you are right.. we all do mistakes, no body's perfect, but only God is perfect!

I wanted to continue with the great historical article you wrote, I have posted recently about what they call it "Gaza Holocaust Museum", I am not sure you have heard about it or not, so I will share this with you to give another way of thinking about all of that again, maybe someone will get a better way of understanding the confusing things, or a better look to the whole situation, it's photos that people should see, I can not describe them by words, all exist in that page!

mylifethinking.com/life/?p=313

All the best!

[reply]

7/02/08

timethief

@hishaman
Thanks for reading my blog post and for commenting
Peace be with you

7/03/08

Enlight

This whole world is under the power of the wicked ones. Jesus taught that his chosen ones cannot be any part of this world, which includes religion and government.

When people say God, which 'god' are people referring to?

[reply]

7/03/08

timethief

@Enlight
I have no idea which God people are referring to when they kill other humans. There is no support found in the New Testament for proclaiming “God is on our side” in any situation, including war. If anything these teachings appear to indicate that believers are expected to be on God’s side and not the reverse. Also the New Testament teachings indicate that Jesus abhorred violence of any kind and that he challenged his followers to become peacemakers and not, warriors.
7/04/08

Enlight

I agree, the "god" they are referring to is the god of war - Baal, also of selfishness and greed.

Baal is the entity that the Israelites stumbled over and lost the favor of the Almighty Divine the Source of Love and light.

The lower entities make themselves as gods in this world which they rule they thrive off of worship of humans, war, murder, selfishness, and greed.

The true source, the Almighty Divine - The God or gods, does not favor any one country, although karmic bonds are attached to the behavior of a country.

7/03/08

mish

I don't understand why God have to side on any country.

[reply]

7/03/08

timethief

@mish
Please see my reply to enlight here www.blogcatalog.com/discuss/entry/wake-up-america-god-is-not-on-your-side#c...

7/04/08