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What do you think of Israel?
Posted by srv0 • 10/01/08 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: Israel
What do you think of Israel?
User Comments
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I think their neighbors need to get over themselves and leave Israel alone. I would love to visit Israel some day.-
Robin it's the other way around, Israel needs to learn to live peacefully with their neighbors. Stealing the water doesn't help the problem. Learning to share would help. Although without traveling the region, a person will only understand what the media teaches, which is a bunch of brainwashing lies. -
Enlight,
you have no clue.
The PLO want's Israel not just part of Israel, not just part of Jerusalem they want the whole friggin place and every last Jew dead.
"Until the last Jew has been driven into the sea", this was a mainstay of the PLO and remains so, this is also a popular saying of Hamas.
Do you know that what the PLO is currently claiming of Israel it once claimed of Jordan? That is that Jordan was the historical land of the Palestinians. How did Jordan answer that, by killing many and removing the rest.
A modern Palestine could have been a reality just as a modern Israel is, however the Palestinians choose to listen to the Arab nations around them who told them to not accept a Palestinian state that the Arab nations would destroy Israel in war and then the Palestinians could have Israel.
What happened?
Israel crushed the Arabs, kept Israel and took surrounding areas as well to protect their borders.
Palestine has had many chances to again have their own state and refuse the terms each and every time.
Not until the last Jew is dead will they accept any terms, no matter what they are offered it will never be enough.
Goto MEMRI TV and see the filth they PLO and Hamas put on Palestinian children's TV. Google Palestinian school text books and see what they teach their children in school.
They teach that Jews are rats, that Jews are a disease, that Jews are satanic. They teach that Jews kidnap Christian and Muslim children, kill the children and use the child's blood to make their purim which they then eat.
You will find no such thing on TV or in the schools of Israel.
You will find no such Jewish songs where they sing about the murdering of Palestinians or Arabs such as you will find within Palestine.
So don't give me that crap.
Israel has the right to defend itself against murder's and against those who protect murder's.
BTW, Israel keeps all of the terrorists they capture alive and imprison them.
The PLO, Hamas, etc... kill whoever they capture and refuse to return the dead bodies so the families can at least bury their son, father, daughter.
Your ignorance is unbelievable and very angering.
I'm sure there are plenty here who will say I don't know what I am talking about, or that I lie, or whatever.
Do not believe me, do not believe them for once do honest research and find out the truth and reject the spin. -
So do you live in the region? If not, have you traveled the Middle East?
Very few countries around the world like the Government of Israel, and I am not talking about your common Israeli or Jew.
Jimmy Carters book proves that Israel has never wanted to make Peace with the Palestinians, after 40 years of occupation, the Israeli Government is building a wall that will just cause a prison, Gaza is a fine example. -
In short and brief, Palestine wants freedom, and Israel isnt giving any. And the whole world hates Israel for that. Personally, I do. -
Enlight,
Jimmy Carter is an idiot and his stupid Utopian policies are the very cause of many of the on going issues in the mid east.
Deny the facts and keep yourself ignorant and hatefilled. -
rfburnhertz you didn't answer my question, Do you live in Israel, of have you traveled the Middle East?
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@Calais
It is a lovely place to visit, steeped in history,so much beauty - our busdriver was a Moslem and got along well with our Jewish tour guide. We did not hear any bombs going off either when we visited a little over 3 years ago. Ah the Dead Sea and the Sea of Galilee - Planning for a longer return visit. Shalom! -
agree
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@Enlight,
You really have no clue about what's going on here.
@rfburnhertz,
Nice post!
@ernestlobo,
You can't just simplify like this the most complicated conflict in the world for the last six decades.
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Broad question. I'd like to go there one day. It is a little country, yet, has become a cup of trembling in the middle east. Peace to Israel. -
That *is* a broad question. And so, a broad answer: I like it.
I lived there for a time, and I'd urge anyone who is interested in visiting there to do so. It's a beautiful, fascinating, heterogeneous country.-
I have American friends living there now and they love it. What an *amazing* part of the world.
Let me ask, do you think it is true that Israel is sitting on oil reserves? -
As far as I know, Israel is oil-less. Water is the bigger issue there.
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Israel is sitting on oil
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I think Israel needs to stop whining so much.
Israel certainly was important to the US in assisting the instigation of Geogia's attacks against Southern Ossettia. -
This is a beautiful country with quite a lot of very nice people.
But the people "managing" it are a bit too "extremist" to my liking...-
From what others have told me that have been there it is exactly as you have described.
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Israel is sitting on oil reserves!
But hard to say how much
Who was in Israel?
Who planning visit Israel some day?-
I'll reserve my opinion of Israel and her government. Suffice to say I believe Israel could do more to promote peace yet chooses not to. -
I have been to Israel and it surely is the land of milk and honey. If any one ever has a chance to travel there, you really should visit and take in the tours as its not only beautiful but has so much history behind it with much future to follow.
What do I think about it?
I believe everyone should pray for the peace of Israel and keep your eyes on it, as pretty much the world revolves around its affairs. -
@Angie:
I totally agree! I haven't been there yet, but it is on my list of things I must do..
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Is there a country that you couldn't say that about, Carl? (I know, the question was about Israel.)
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Arcticulates,
Good to hear that. You will love it.
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even though im jewish i feel like it was created by the western powers to get a colonial hand into the region. to make matters worse israel carried out a genocide even against the palistinians worse than the holocaust so i would give israel the f- rating though i really want to go to tell aviv to party-
What have you been reading???
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I lived in Israel for six months in the winter of 1980 - 81. It was a wonderful time, the people for the most part friendly. Israelis always asked me if I was Jewish, which I'm not - the Arabs never asked my background. There were a lot of things to get used to - like 18-year-old conscripts walking around with machine guns and army gear, very strict border control, signs everywhere saying watch out for suspicious packaging, that sort of thing. Jerusalem is a fabulous place and I could have spent my entire time there and never been bored. There's diving in the Red Sea, skiing in the Golan, desert exploration, a ton of history to get lost in. I'd go back anytime. -
To really understand a country, region, or culture, a person has to visit for a good amount of time or live in a country to know the details.
One thing can be said from the behavior of the Government of Israel—they have never changed. Though, the common people are nice people, there is always a divided between politics and the common people. -
I live in Israel & I'm not a jew
If not the arabs, this place was a heavan!
I living here 14 years
the Government sucks
very very very good people here
I know that many poeple in the whole world hate Israel and I don't get why?!-
Only b/c they dont know any better.
I would like to live there for a year or 2.
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So, who hate Israel?
and why?-
What kind of question is that? I think it's pretty disgusting asking people why they hate a country or a type of person. -
I think the fact that they hate a country is , but knowing why isn't , Understanding where their bias and hatred stems actually is beneficial, sometimes it's not as simple as one would think and is deep rooted for generations. -
Israel is a nation that condemned and cursed. Why? because he was brave of yore killed the prophets and religious leaders themselves.
Sorry my bad english
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I would like to visit Israel. The reason people hate Israel is because I think this person put it best.
"Israel is a tiny nation, roughly half the size of Lake Michigan. Its population is roughly half the size of the New York metropolitan area. Despite being a Jewish state, more than twenty percent of its residents are Arab and most Jews in Israel describe themselves as secular rather than religious.
Yet if one were to read world press accounts or daily condemnations from the United Nations or the recent decision of the ICJ criticizing the construction of the fence, you might conclude that Israel is a world power intent on destabilizing Middle East affairs.
Why, it might well be postulated, does the world resent this speck of land between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean?
Although my comments are speculative, I suspect they could be borne out empirically if historical accounts were fair and objective.
Israel is a thorn in the side of the Arab world because it is a remarkable technological phantasmagoria. Almost every Israeli is engaged in a software scheme. The Jews in this arid nation have made the deserts bloom; they have converted brain power into technical marvels and consequent wealth.
By contrast every nearby Arab nation is dysfunctional. Their governments are tyrannical; the people are poor and uneducated and local officials have been unwilling to convert oil revenue into social benefits.
Resentment is the natural result of this contrast. Afterall, Israel has all of the geographic disadvantages of its neighbors and it doesn't have any oil fields. Yet it prospers, while others falter.
Second, it should be hastily noted that Israel is a proxy for anti-American sentiment. The misguided belief that the U.S. is an imperial power eager to put its stamp on the Middle East is demonstrated by the aid and support given to Israel. Rarely, is it noted by U.S. detractors that American assistance to Egypt is equal to aid for Israel. Moreover, American involvement in Iraq was neither precipitated by Israel (Does the tail wag the dog?) nor has this engagement influenced Israel’s relations with her neighbors in any new directions.
Third, the Palestinian question has awakened emotions on the European left and in many Arab states. Yet remarkably the critique of Israel is generally quite banal. Arafat, as putative Palestinian leader, was granted 97 percent of the West Bank and some control over holy sites in the negotiation at Wye Plantation. Yet he turned down these generous Israeli terms.
In fact, there aren’t any terms that serve the ambitions of Arabs eager to destroy the state of Israel, unless, of course, national suicide is a reasonable negotiating point.
Fourth, the fence has the metaphorical power of the Berlin Wall. It is used for propaganda purposes to argue that Israel is intent on “taking Arab land” and isolating itself from Palestinians.
What should be noted is that the Berlin Wall was created to keep East Germans bound to the chains of communism, while the Israeli fence is designed to prevent suicide bombers from continuing wreaking bloodshed among Israelis.
Intifada II has resulted in at least a thousand dead Israeli citizens since 2000 and others maimed as well. It is encumbent on any leader of any nation to offer his people a modicum of security against those bent on bloodshed. If the fence reduces threats and increases security, Prime Minister Sharon should embrace it. His duty to protect his own people transcends any obligation imposed on him from multilateral organizations.
Fifth, the Palestinians have made their case to the international court of public opinion more effectively than the Israeli government. They have positioned themselves as underdogs against a mighty military force from tiny Israel. They have persuaded many of their supporters that the land Israel acquired after the ‘67 war is “occupied” rather than “disputed” territory. Hence, their sanguinic tactics are ignored by opinion markers normally opposed to terrorist activity.
Sixth, the Palestinians manage their news media. There isn’t an opposition voice in the Palestinian territory and if an unpredictable comment is made, it is often squelched with force. Reporters Without Borders has reported numerous occasions where journalists were beaten when they challenged Hamas or Hezbollah positions in print.
Israel, as an open and free society, entertains every point of view, including anti Israel arguments. As a consequence, criticism of Israel is widespread and criticism of Palestinian activity muted.
Seventh, the United Nations is now systematically organized to criticize the United States and Israel. It is instructive that in a statement emanating from the Secretariat’s office condemning the construction of the fence, not a word was mentioned about suicide bombers who precipitated the construction.
As I see there is very little that can be done at the moment to change international opinion. Israel has an obligation to its own people to remain resolute against usually unfair and hateful allegations. For the Middle East this is the Dark Ages. But if the Arab world wishes to enter the 21st century – a far from clear conclusion – it will have to adopt and perhaps emulate much of Israeli life. On that slim reed, hope shall continue to exist." humus_sapiens IsraeliForum.com-
Ps I am a Mossad agent. -
Nice post!
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Good article. It was written by Herbert London:
www.israel21c.org/bin/en.jsp?enPage=BlankPage&enDisplay=view&enDispWhat=obj...
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I think it is a country capable of defending itself that doesn't constantly need the US wiping nose or kissing its bum. -
I think Israel needs to do a little reading about the Geneva Convention.-
What about it?
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Yes, what about it?
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I think it's crazy that people are killing each other over a barely hospitable desert.-
Barely hospitable desert hardly describes the area. And it isn't why they're killing each other.
voodooKobra, I know you just like to argue -- but what if one day someone knocked on your door and said your home doesn't belong to you. It belongs to someone else. Or your car, or computer, or something or someone you consider valuable. I think that example describes how both Jews and Palestinians feel. -
I would simply procure the legal (not religious) documents that say otherwise. If my home sucks, I'll pack all my shit up and move somewhere better. Their loss.
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It is a wonderful country. Sacred place on earth. -
I love Israel, it is beautiful and I admire their military. I wish we adopted some of their methods
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The hate mongering propoganda rhetoric spoken by a few people in this discussion is moronic and ridiculous...
Israel was allowed into existence by the rest of the world due to the nazi holocaust that "exterminated" over six million Jews...-
They should have been given Bavaria. It was the germans who screwed with them not the Palestinians. The palestinians were pissing off the oil interests though from Britain and the US. There was a proposed pipeline straight across the county at the time, which they wanted to control. They were also getting buddy buddy with Soviet envoys.
The British government was hoping to establish a new loyal constabulary in the Levant when they suggested the holy land to counter those problems. They were originally going to be offered half of Madagascar, not the holy land, but like I said we should have offered them Bavaria. It seems only fair.
The British might have proposed it, but I highly doubt it was done with out US backing, since we provided a lot of the logistics and financial backing. The original police force and military of Israel also got their training directly from the SAS and OSS, which leads me to believe we were hip deep in this. -
ttiger,
Anyone dressed in a batman suit is ridiculous and cant know what their talking about.
Ohh wait, ttiger, that would be you. -
absolutely
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I want to join the IDF -
You are welcome to join me next month for some field artillery training.
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I pray for the peace of Jerusalem. shalom.
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Israel is a lovely country--as are many places in the ME. I was born in Alexandria, Egypt and lived there for the first several years of my life. I am half Egyptian but I have immediate family who are Jewish. We live in peace--would that everyone could learn from some members of my family.-
mtyler, you have a fascinating background! You said you're half Egyptian -- what's the other half? (Just my curiosity.)
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@JewishAngle--I do have a varied background! I am half Egyptian, a quarter French and a quarter dutch. My Egyptian Aunt (my father's youngest sister) is married to a Jewish man and they have three kids that they have raised Jewish. It's an interesting family experiment!
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Yay, if people resolve to they can live in peace, and even become friends.
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Being based in Dubai its unlikely we'll ever be permitted into Israel, sadly - we're not allowed the Israel stamp in our passports.....would love to break down these barriers and help find peace, everywhere! -
everybody interested in Israel should do some search on the the Ha’avara Agreement.
www.secularderby.org/palestine.htm
the Havaara agreement purpose was to permit German Jews to transfer. their capital to Palestine
back in in time sionist and nazi were working together to create israel !
a good book everyone should read: david kimche,the secret roads:the illegal migration of people 1938/1948(London1954) -
Israel is my friend
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I think they should all look at one another and begin the love process. Aren't they bone weary of fighting?-
Not as long as the US is selling Israel weapons and then in turn placing sanctions against Muslim countries.
BTW...around 25% of our foreign aid goes to Israel. To Hell with dying victims of famine, typhoons, hurricanes, tsunamis... (sarcasm)
"Spreading democracy" = spreading hypocrisy -
I think there are too many arms (weapons) already. We need to talk to one another instead of having battles.
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Well, shouldn't Israel have the right to defend themselves? Especially surrounded by all their enemies, who's prime objective is destroying Israel and wiping them off the map?
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They don't want to talk!
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Israel doing its best to get peace!
but the arabs...oh the arabs...-
jew and arabs not only the arabs.. the chosen people have their part in the conflict..
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Chosen people?
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yea!
Chosen!
There is no chance for peace with arabs , sorry...
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An israeli said "A lot of countries have problems but they only show our problem in the world media nither the baskian spanish conflict nor the russian chechnian conflict, we don't suggest them any stupid suggestions like the road map so f***ing leave us alone."-
Problem is, why do you think you're better qualified to talk about it? Granted, most people that you'll find on this BBS and most other parts only know what they know because of the often biased media, but are you THAT different from them? Sure, probably you or your family have experienced things that people outside of Israel haven't, but is that enough? I mean, have you ever been to Gaza strip? How many times have you sat down with a palestinian and heard his point of view? How many times have you witnessed some shooting, a suicide bombing, all of that? Several, I'm guessing, otherwise you wouldn't have made this post. And I'm sure watching them as they happened was much different than looking at some note at CNN, but that doesn't change the point that you haven't got the WHOLE aspect of the issue.
I'll give you this: You're probably better informed than most people on this subject. But you're not fully informed. Therefore, "correcting" the "wrong" views some people may have on Israel may be ok in a few cases, but most of the time it just doesn't make sense. -
why not?
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THIER BELIEVE IS THAT THEY SHOULD MANAGE THE WHOLE WORLD!
EVERY ONE WHO STEP ON THEY WAY THEY WILL KILL THEM!
THERE'S GANNA BE A WW3 SOON!
REMEMBER WHAT I'M TELLING YOU! -
If you are interested in opinion from Israel pleas read this blog
israelsurvive.com
It was written on 2002 year but it is actualy today too.-
TNX
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I believe the conflict has 3 main reasons:
1. A conflict about land.
2. A clash of cultures between traditional middle-eastern societies to a modern western society.
3. A religious-based conflict.-
That looks like a good summary to me. And #2 and #3 are also being played out all over the Middle East. And Uri, you're right there, so you're living the conflict.
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According to these rabbis, Jews Arabs and Christians coexisted peacefully when Israel did not yet exist.
youtube.com/watch?v=kYi6Hp6Rvuw
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It's a nice country I think.
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Yea, it is
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I think the majority of the Israeli people are very nice people, based on the ones I've had encounters or interactions with.
I think Israel is also a wonderful place to visit someday based on what people have said and photographs I have seen.
But, I don't particularly agree with their administrations continued agression against her neighbors. Certainly some of those neighbors harbor negative sentiment against Israel, however, I feel that Israel is the aggressor or instigator in many instances. Basically, I say, if you're going to throw a punch, you better be prepared to take a beating for it.
Certainly there may be valid disputes or arguments in that region, most of them beyond my own understanding of those issues, but I think religion and social philosophies are deterrents to both parties of the conflicts and it often renders them incapable of making compromises or successions to reach a mutually agreeable arrangement.-
i agree with u
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This is a resurrected thread from that has had nothing meaningful added to it since 10/14/08 . Current threads can be found here www.blogcatalog.com/politics/discuss
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The land belongs to G-d.
The people (a remnant called "True Israel") belong to G-d.
The capital (City of David) belongs to G-d. -
Off topic and not regarding this specific discussion (all BC discussions), but it amazes me how people who claim to not care about a specific topic or discussion, think it worthless, or think it has already been discussed sufficiently take time to read and comment. Could someone enlighten me as to the motivation for participating? -
Its belongs to someone else and the people who gave it away, had no legitimate claim to do so! -
I don't think of it that much. I think it has become a place where it is practically impossible for there to be a right and wrong. It is like a grievous wound. I wish they could declare Jerusalem its own city state and not let it be controlled by anyone. It is too sacred to be profaned by the existing nation states.-
You wish WHO would declare Jerusalem and its own city state? And how could it not be controlled by anyone? Do you know of any place that is not controlled by anyone? And who would collect the trash? If it's too sacred to be profaned, perhaps the solution would be to bulldoze it under. But who would do that?
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Israel is really cruel country, their army is have no mercy on children, women ,and old people, how come you can look at and eye of kid and you shoot them, is that human? or animal, their have no mercy and if they really want a war fight with equally strength, stone with stone not stone with bomb.. so personally i'm hate israel.-
when an intelligence's agency's motto is "by deception, thou shalt do war", I tend to not take the official rocket account for granted.
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Israel is really cruel country, their army is have no mercy on children, women ,and old people, how come you can look at eye of kid and you shoot them at head what type of army is that?, is that human? or animal, their have no mercy and if they really want a war fight with equally strength, stone with stone not stone with bomb.. so personally i'm hate israel.
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Just wondering what country you live in. And if Israel is the only country you hate. You might have missed the news, but Hamas has fired rockets continually on Israel. So, by your logic, it should be ok for Israel to fire rockets on Hamas. Hamas and Islamic Jihad have used human bombs to murder Israeli civilians. I'm not sure that you'd be able to find an Israeli to strap on explosives and blow himself up in a Palestinian market. But that seems to be what you're suggesting.
I'd suggest that you're naive. A country or people fights a war to win it. That's what Hamas is doing -- it wants Israel out of Gaza (oops, Israel was already out of Gaza), the West Bank, and everywhere else. Hamas is using every weapon it can. You can't blame them. You can only try to destroy them.
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wow look like some rabbits
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Life is a Sinusoidal Curve
if we want to add 4 more pic to your panorama i will apply
this function: y(t) = A.sin(wt+θ )
see around you and you will see this curve where ever -
These maps are somewhat disingenuous. You're confusing a colonial territory called Palestine, whose boundaries changed due to big power decisions and war, with a Palestinian Arab people, whose identity was raised in the 20th century.
To further muddy things, you might want to add a map from, say 1920, that showed "Palestine as all the land from the Mediterranean Sea eastward, and including today's Jordan.
You might also want to include some notation that Palestinians and the major Arab countries opposed the 1947 partition plan and, instead, sought to prevent Israel from coming into being. In the ensuing war, Egypt took control of Gaza while Jordan conquered the West Bank. Instead of a still-birth for Israel, they cut off the birth of an Arab Palestine.
And you might also want to point out that the Israeli withdrawal from Gaza in 2005, was the first time Palestinians were able to control their own territory. So how did Hamas respond to this unprecedented (and long overdue)opportunity? By staging a coup against rival Fatah, kidnapping Israeli soldier Gilad Shalit, and by shooting rockets into Israel (which had just relinquished control of Gaza to the Palestinians).
Please see if you can work these things into your maps; they seem a bit one-dimensional otherwise.
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I personally have nothing but admiration for Israel. The level of discipline, pride in country, and determination is impressive. It is also one on the most beautiful places I've seen, granted that was 11 years ago, but still. -
I dont know
but who fired the rocket from Gaza???
Israeli soldiers????
try to understand -
i think i probably can't get there by foot.
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Israel was created with a prophetic vision in view of a one world governement. Ever wonder where the expression "war to end all wars" came from (straight from Isaie 2:1). WW1 was to wrest "Palestine" from the Ottoman Empire. WW2 was in view of creating the State of Israel.
Background info
"Myron Fagan's Illuminati and Council on Foreign Relations"
usa-the-republic.com/audio/index.html
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Myron_Coureval_Fagan -
Might be interesting to separate it into 1)Isreal- the covenant people in the Old Testament 2)Isreal- the land as it was and is at various times 3) Isreal- the political entity now in power. Just A Thought...
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Would you look at my spelling! What a dunce! Should be Israel. I spell better in my second and third languages.
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ha! what are your 2nd 3rd third languages? just curious.
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Spanish is my second language, Jibberish is my third (athough I am learning the Hebrew alphabet at the moment from the 119th Psalm). Understand some Oaxacan if you speak slowly.
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I see you're not going for the mainstream languages. lol Very interesting!
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I don't know... The entire situation is a mess. I believe in the idea of a Jewish state and it's right to exist. But man Israel gets a free pass on a lot of poor human rights violations and some pretty messed up stuff. I understand that when you are surrounded for hundreds of miles on all of your borders by people that want you dead you have to do certain things to survive but the US needs to curb the blind support.
This conflict isn't doing anything to help matters in the least. -
I think Israel is leadeed by nazis and like allways the inocent people are the ones who suffer.
I don´t want to visit any country that have nzai politics because I could never feel well on a country like that.
Palestinians are also leaded by nazis that don´t want to stop the war and like allways people suffers from the nazis that rule us.
So what to think of Israel? What is Israel? What is Palestine?
When people are dying like in Palestina and Israel then there are no Isarel or Palestine and only death.
So what can I think of Israel?
I think Israel like everything and everybody will suffer the consequences of their actions.
But for the crimes commited by Israel I think only God will judge them as the persons who control Israel also controls more than half of the world.-
How much more than half? 51% 62% 83% Could you give a specific figure and the documentation behind your statement that "persons who control Israel also controls more than half of the world."
Oh, and who are those persons? A list of names would be helpful.
Thanks you.
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nice
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I think America needs to stop selling them weaponry. I also think America needs to cut ties with Israel. The state of Israel needs to be held accountable for genocide. Palestine is the Middle Eastern Holocaust. For the past 60 years they have tortured, killed, destroyed, stolen and stamped out. The Palestinian people have been systemically exterminated much like the Jews in Europe were under Hitler. Historical facts don't lie.
The true tragedy of it all, is that this has been done underneath
the watchful eye of the International community. Yet again!
It is genocide through and through. Israel hands are stained from the relentless blood shed of the Palestinian people. However, America stands guilty in this action of extermination. American weaponry, military aid and overall support has allow this to happen. Heck far, if it wasn't for President Truman, I think the State of Israel would not exist. The land would be named as it should be named, Palestine.
It is time to cut Israel loose. I'm deeply sadden for the fate of God's precious chosen children. Why or how they can rationalize the actions of exterminating human life over land rights- in this day and age- deeply saddens me. And yet only the extreme terrorist see the injustice of it. Cut Israel loose. Let Israel face its demons. Bye Bye terrorism for America and most of the International community as well. Israel is a infectious disease, that soon will have us all dead, if something fair and right isn't done about it. I think Israel should be put forth a tribunal council and face charges. But I think George W. should be tried for his war crimes too. -
The brilliant inventors of KRAV MAGA!
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