Discussions
What Would Happen If ????
Posted by Jeunelle • 3/29/09 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: barter, electricity, Free, free energy, free world, freedom, system, water
What would happen if we stopped paying for things with money and started to barter?
What would happen if we created a world where most everything was free?
What would happen if our basic necessities like water, electricity, free energy, etc
was free and a moral basic right for all living?
Is this concept impossible? Is this concept something that you cannot imagine?
Can it be done or even become a reality and what can we do to make it so?
Your thoughts please 
User Comments
-
WOW - and world peace too..
It won't happen - too many people want what everyone else has, and then they want something better... Something MORE.
Sorry - wish it could happen...
You could create your OWN society - Like Buy an island - then move people out there... And create the rules and society lifestyle.
It would be the only way you could do it - as long as the society could be self sufficient - and could contain itself...
Once the first generation of children were raised it would be then seen if it could be done.-
@wagerwitch... I agree with what you said for the most part yet there is a part of me that says it can be done. I feel that if people have their basic needs met, some of this competition to have what we really don't need will die down but then again who can be sure.
One thing is certain, it is this society that creates a sort of coverting and wanting the next best thing.
However I am open and would love to hear what the other BC members have to say without judgment. So let it rip and thank you for responding. -
how would everyone know if they were keeping up with the Joneses?
-
-
I've asked myself that same question in the past... And the answer came quickly: no. I agree with WW, I just don't think it's possible. Or you'd have to start from scratch.
It's a wonderful concept, but unfortunately, only in written form, or in our minds.-
Salomey5...Same with me but maybe because we are conditioned to covert
and we aren't use to anything else.
However I value what you have said and have to say, so let it rip and thank you for responding -
Agreed. But I think humans (most anyway) are creatures of habit. And habits are hard to break.
We get so rapidly used to things that we used to consider luxuries before we got them, and then, just take them for granted.
We would need to be so completely deconditioned (if that's the right term) that it would be easier to start again from scratch.
Which brings forth another question: Where? -
YES I totally agree this is true, we would need to be de-conditioned into a new way of doing things. Excellent observation and (where) is another question I didn't anticipate but heck let's go there too. Where???
It certainly isn't impossible because we have accomplished a global capitalistic society where almost everything is the dollar bill but what if we were to replace that society with something new? Impossible??? not necessarily.
Our own dollar bill might not last forever, not in this unsure global market.
-
-
We would end up with huge food shortages and lack of basic necessities like running water, electricity, clothing, medical supplies such as antibiotics and vaccines.
There would be a black market with exorbitant pricing for basic necessities other than food such as grooming supplies.
There would also be a total breakdown of social order with law enforcement unable to sustain any kind of governance and large cities would no longer exist.
Utopias never work. Human nature doesn't allow it. Plus, utopias invariably lead to disturbing ideas such as racial purity and eugenics.-
hmmm interesting...do you know this for sure?
Somehow I doubt that would be the end of the human race but I do hear you. -
Yep. Look at history. Societies that are forced to revert to barter systems are invariably cultures in crises as a result of war, poverty and disease.
As soon as the crises passes, capitalism returns with incredible swiftness. -
Ummm we have lots of bartering systems here in the USA and they do seem to work for that isolated society. I can't say that once they stepped out of their shell into the rest of the world that they will be able to survive but they do seem to be doing well in their own little part of town.
-
-
I think I'd be in trouble, I wouldn't know what was a fair barter-
hehehehe Kat you have raise a good point.
The type of bartering system I had in mind was everything was in an equal phase and nothing was worth more than the other yet it was supplied freely to anyone who needed it. Impossible??? Not necessarily.
Keep in mind that native american indians survived just fine in a culture of bartering and the mirror and other petty trinkets like trade beads weren't even a part of their everyday lives until the white man came to tempt them with gifts off his ships. -
You'd be surprised, Kat. You may find that bartering gets you far more for far less than what you do now. Not because you're cheating anyone, but because the true value of things come to the surface when bartering happens.
We managed to get two cars for 20 hours worth of work. We needed cars, the other guy needed help with his floors and barn roof, and actually had the cars to give. We both wound up with an awesome deal.
He couldn't have sold the cars for enough money, really, to pay for the repairs he needed at the going costs, and we certainly could not have bought two cars for 20 hours of work at the going hourly rate.
-
-
Well paper money (especially the US$) will sooner or later not be worth the ink its printed on, so bartering will most definitly be on the rise. I think there are already quite a few bartering communities in the US. I also saw a documentary on Argentina, where bartering has taken on a big role since their last big monetary crisis.
As for free energy (quasi - nothing is 100per cent free), it already exists thanks to Nikolas Tesla, but a) JPMorgan abandonned funding of his project when he realized it would harm big interests and b)the military have sort of exercized a monopoly over his inventions over the past decades.
Must see on Tesla!
video.google.es/videoplay?docid=2188562935002257117-
Thanks for bringing up N. Tesla and providing a link.
Yes there are many bartering systems already in place and people seem to be doing well off them without relying on the dollar bill and since the dollar bill is weakening, there has been an increase in bartering globally.
Energy may look free but here in the USA, the government can pounce down on citizens and take away their plans to create free energy systems for average everyday americans. I have read that they do stop by and pay you a visit.
The capitalistic system is still in place and anything that challenges the system is usually put a quick end to, unless you are big business and you have the funds to bribe and pay off those who oppose you.
-
-
Amazing how when someone has a great idea that can change the world, how jealousy, opposition and competition steps in to take a front row seat to the evolution of humanity.
It's obvious he went through a lot of bullshit and we have a lot to be thankful for to Tesla,
yet he remains an almost forgotten inventor yet a most important on to bat.
I am certain that if he wasn't Russian and was an American, we would have heard of him and remembered him. -
Yes, amazing how the most prolific inventor of the 20th century is almost unknown.
Wilhelm Reich is another one whose scientific investigations landed him in jail, where he died.
Kate Bush dedicated a song to him.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=IRHA9W-zExQ
A brief film re-enacting his story
www.youtube.com/watch?v=8L3tKddZFic
edit: Tesla was actually a Serb. I think the hushness may have more to do with the nature of his inventions, you may have a point.-
Love Kate Bush, what an incredible artist she is.
Yup Wilhelm Reich is another, there were quiet a few on WGBH that are almost forgotten now. Some are black scientist and some are from other foreign countries, I'm not surprised.
-
-
Lennon had a thought or two on the same subject:
Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world
Keep the dream alive.-
Out of all the Beatles, Lennon was my favorite by far
a part of me died when he was murdered.
-
-
Too bad he met a Manchurian Candidate.
-
Indeed.. a sad day that was and still is
-
-
Since the banks failed a lot of people in South America years ago and many lost their life savings in them due to the economic crisis, many have had no choice but to create a system of bartering and they seem to be getting the things that they need just fine.
Many in places like Argentina and other parts of South America, people do barter and they seem to be thriving there in that part of town.
If our own dollar bill fails here in the USA, you can bet you will be bartering too. -
An infamous word.
"Corralito (pronounced [koraˈlito]) was the informal name for the economic measures taken in Argentina at the end of 2001 by Minister of Economy Domingo Cavallo in order to stop a bank run, and which were fully in force for one year. The corralito almost completely froze bank accounts and forbade withdrawals from U.S. dollar-denominated accounts."
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corralito
"At the turn of the century, ''rich as an Argentine'' was a Parisian simile for great wealth."-
Yup I do remember this and this is exactly what I was referring to. Bank accounts were frozen and many starved until bartering systems replaced this loss, at least with the bartering systems the people were able to get the basic things they needed.
This same thing can happen here in the USA if our stock market crashes.
-
-
There is no--and never has been--such a thing as a "Free Lunch," Juenelle. Bartering is the only thing that can replace a monetary standard of any sort. Will it happen? Could be. The world economy is now--after a dot.com bubble and a housing sub-prime bubble--about to engage in its last big one: a MONEY bubble. When this one blows, everything blows.
Be ready to barter up a storm then.-
Anok will rule the world... lol
-
In fact last night, Governor Dean remarked on MSNBC that the next bubble to burst will be the credit card bubble. That's one of the few things Governor Dean has said to which I can agree.
Barter by its definition of trade denies that anything will be for free. And it won't for as long as people operate on the principle that we must take as much as we can get while sacrificing as little as possible. It will be that way for as long as ambition is preferred over innocence.
I do think that with a rise in barter in the wake of a wrecked economy, that we will see a rise in local currencies. Banks did this with their own certificates in the 1800's. This is currently being done with Berkshire Notes in New England.
-
-
Free lunch is not the topic but more a self sufficient world and maybe even with less
and less government. YES you bet it can very well become a reality.
I think those who are taking classes on becoming self sufficient or survival techniques
can survive the economic crunch. The key is to try to create a system of self reliance which will very much come in handy one day. Some are creating a really interesting world. www.youtube.com/watch?v=CCTOR6m3k9w-
I've forwarded this link to Timothy Geithner and president Obama.
Oh yeah, CodeSucker has connections.. -
hahahaha AWESOME
-
-
has codesucker busted said treasury secretary out of a gym locker before?
-
-
tell him to fund education! I am dying here, all our students are leaving this ghetto
-
Yeah Pres. Bush sure didn't do anything to help out teachers, students or school systems. I hope Obama does something. I just found out today that those who are collecting unemployement will receive a $25.00 increase on their unenjoyment checks. That looks like a good move but just remember these people will have more taxes to pay at tax time next year. In fact I believe that property values only increase so that home owners will have to pay more taxes come tax time. hehehe
-
-
What not a fan of NCLB? well my students can't accomplish the goals
-
I do wish to see more teachers paid, there is no doubt in my mind that they are underpaid.
-
Heck now that we are talking about it, someone should create a bartering website
mainly for teachers and students. Students who can't afford those expensive books can barter for the books they need, why not?
-
-
Is it possible? Yes.
Is it possible right this second? No.
We already barter for the majority of things we want or need - we use money for what we can't reasonably barter for at the moment. Once you start networking, you'll be amazed at what can be achieved through collaboration.-
@Anok....OMG HOOORRRRAAYYYY
We agree on somethings once again, life is good
www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPh1S2bN4C8&feature=related -
LOL
Well, you know how I am about bartering...
-
I should know by now.
-
Anok...what did you do to your avatar? A ninja with rabbit ears? I just posted about a rabbit on my blog!
-
It's my ode to Easter/Ostara and spring
-
-
If politics was inexistent then voila!- that might be possible but as long as we have politicians around err, I think...never. That might be a blanket statement nevertheless few would disagree.
Kidding aside, hmm, bartering may be possible especially if governments do away with paper money as currency and use gold instead.
Freebies? well, we all love them don't we? but that would be wishful thinking I guess. And yep, i've read about the dotcom bubble too and don't forget about the global recession. So, I do agree with Mr. Payne. -
First and foremost, water, electric and gas are a necessity but the companies who supply our homes with these services are not charities acting out of good will: they're there to make a profit
Incidentally, you could try believing for a second that the employees of such companies (i.e. engineers, accountants, customer service agents etc.) are not helping you get the most out of your service through the kindness of their hearts...but as a result of a steady wage.
It's called the economy and it's what keeps this planet ticking (or at least, that's the general idea). So the likelihood of having these services offered to us free of charge is utterly ludicrous. Sure, some of them are extortionate but if you want to live off the land for free, then get off your arse and join the Amish.
Simple, innit?-
What is the over-all end game purpose of making a "profit"? Particularly for a business (not a person) to make "profit"?
Can the business go out and buy things for itself? Maybe a nice day at the spa? Will the business need to put it's profit towards it's retirement fund? Maybe Business Jr needs a college education, and business's daughter needs some braces....
If a businesses cost nothing to run - it wouldn't need to charge for it's products and services. And if no other businesses are charging for products and services, then it costs nothing for those businesses to run.
Simple. -
So are you telling me that a qualified engineer would happily fix a broken pipe to a gas or water supply and not get paid for it? Or that a call centre full of under graduates would deal with customer complaints, eight hours a day and happily take nothing home in return? I think not.
Besides, it's like you said...
"If a businesses cost nothing to run"
Yeah, with "if" being the key word, dumbass.
-
If all of their worldly needs were already provided for? (If companies aren't charging for products services, then that engineer doesn't need to pay for it - his payment is already made by doing his job in his local community) Absolutely.
Money is just a middle man.
But that doesn't answer my question - why does a company need to make a "profit"? Profits are above and beyond what they pay out for operating costs. What purpose does that profit serve, and why does an inanimate object need to keep, maintain, and earn a profit?
Would you set it up so your home made and kept a profit? (Your home, not you - you aren't allowed to touch it). Of course not - that's absurd.
Shouldn't the money go to the employees - you know, the humans who make up the company? -
I hate to break it to you lady...but socialism is dead. At least, it is here in a country where we don't have to pump our own water out.
-
That's not Socialism. Not even close.
It's a barter/gift economy - and it's not dead. Indigenous tribes use it to this day, successfully.
And you still didn't answer my question.
Care to take a crack at it? -
Alright then. I'll go block up my drains and you can come and fix 'em for me. I won't expect you to get paid but I'll supply whatever tools I have here. Hey, I'll even stick the kettle on. It's all fair, innit?
As for the indigenous tribes, if they want to live without the modern commodities that us Westerners take for granted, then that's their own bloody fault. I've got no intention of farming my own produce. Besides, Tesco already do that for me. They'll even even deliver it to my home.
Viva Capitalism! -
Also:
"What purpose does that profit serve, and why does an inanimate object need to keep, maintain, and earn a profit?"
Correct me if I'm wrong but it all costs money. By "all", I mean new servers, systems, machinery staff training, advertising and marketing campaigns. Even office stationary. These things don't grow on trees now, do they?
Mind you, I do agree with what you're saying, in that there are too many fat cats reaping the benefits from company profits with the lower echelons not evening getting a sniff of that juicy pie. Sure it isn't fair. But that's life.
But if you really want to change things, then get off your arse and start your own indigenous tribe where we all work together under a non-profit scheme and successfully, I might add.
Heck, if it turns out to be a successful solution to our failing economy, I'd be more than willing to give it a go. Until then, I'll just treat these radical ideologies as I always have; with utter dismay.
After all, it's amazing how many people talk about making drastic changes to their lifestyles but when it comes down to brass tacks, they mysteriously lack the balls to put their ideas into practise. Weird that, innit? -
I happily work for people with no intention of a return.
It's called "volunteering", and I do it often. I also do it for my family and friends - with absolutely no contract, and no expectations.
And if a company is taking earned money and putting it back into the company - it's not a profit, is it. It's called an "overhead cost". Profits - (net profits, or what people regularly talk about when referring to "profit" of a company) is what a company makes above and beyond operating expenses. It's what's left over after the expenses have been paid.
So why does an inanimate object need to make a profit? Does it go home to a hungry brood of little businesses every night?
The point I am making here is that people fully accept the idea that an idea, a name, a building called a "company" can accumulate wealth and profit regardless of how absurd that is.
None of this actually needs to cost money, either, by the way. It's a farce - the whole thing. Money isn't actually worth anything - neither are precious stones or metals, unless they can actually be used for something. Money - and it's value - is arbitrary because it is an "IOU". It's an IOU that never actually gets paid back. It just keeps circulating the system.
We already barter for what we need with the exception of industries not willing to barter (utilities, for example) - we even barter for a lower rent price.
What you learn, when you start networking and bartering is that your time and effort - and those seemingly little things that you have been told are worthless (compared to the almighty dollar) are worth a great deal more than anyone is willing to let on. -
Yup, the profits go to the top with little going to the guys at the bottom. Like I said, you're more than welcome to do something about it. I just think that we, as a nation, are not prepared for that sort of change.
Besides, when was the last time you heard of a plumber or electrician doing his job for free? You can dream about it all you like but at the end of the day, it's never going to happen, not in this country anyway.
Enjoy your capitalist hell. -
I am working on something to change it as we speak, actually (And I mean that seriously).
Hopefully, I will be able to get my ideas across to the right people in a way that it becomes something that can be implemented. The change will be gradual, but I do believe that it can be changed. -
@Anok so do I. Some of the Youtube links below look very promising and I'm sure as time goes on some people will get even more ideas on how to implement this properly on a larger scale to benefit more and more people.
Some really cool ideas will come out of this and we could very well see the dollar bill threatened and if that day comes I will rejoice. Why? because the banks have been stealing money from me for years and I think it's time that people find a way to get rid of them once and for all. It's time that we stick it to the man and tell him we don't need his stinking services anymore. lmao
Right now bartering is still in beta stage but later on something big will come out of it.
-
-
If a barter system is set into place, a lot of areas would be lacking, because who really wants to clean toilets or dig ditches for free. But... it may up the value of those jobs! Not many...
I use bartering all the time with our garden and business. We can usually get a great deal trading for something that we each feel is valuable to us. It is sometimes hard to believe what is someone else's trash is someones else's treasure. But it's very true. I have bartered sewing for things like getting my car fixed, getting furniture, plumbing, electrical work etc.
I have also discovered that with my business many people do not mind asking me for a better deal on my products, and if I can do it... I don't mind obliging.
Tho I have noticed that the same people will go to a grocery store... fill up their cart and never once ask for a better deal. So I guess we are conditioned too... when it comes to money!-
@Articulates...just think about the reduction in crimes like robberies, stealing
and internet fraud and interent credit card theft.
There would be a reduction in these crimes as everyone may become more responsible citizens knowing full well that they would have to save face in the community to get the things they need from exchange/bartering.
We would have to put our best face forward to get the things we want by forming strong bonds with people and get off our asses hiding behind a computer.
We may be more community oriented, more connected.
-
-
If everything was free, anything is possible--but what then would motivate people to achieve?
I remember a Star Trek movie where the Enterprise goes back in time to an Earth before Starfleet existed. The woman from the pre-Starfleet era marvels at the fantastic technology of the Starship Enterprise and remarks: "must have cost a fortune to build" to which Captain Picard reacts: "the concept of money and profit no longer exist in the 24th Century, we now work to better ourselves".
The woman gaped at him in disbelief.-
What motivated people to achieve before money existed?
-
@Anok
Currency was created for a single purpose and that was to record indebtedness. In order for indebtedness to exist during a barter negotiation at least two parties must agree that the value of the of goods and/or services one party is offering up to barter is of either lesser or greater value than what the other party has offered up to barter.
In the context of the current economic crisis there is a 45 minute video series that IMHO is worth viewing: Money as Debt.
The video series is a painless but hard-hitting educational tool and encourages the widest distribution and use by all groups concerned with the present unsustainable monetary system in Canada and the United States.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=vVkFb26u9g8
P.S. I'm in my 50's and I have been bartering goods and services since I was old enough to count. -
@TT
Yup! -
@Anok and articulates
It appears to me that many people have their heads in the sand when it comes to accepting the economic realities.
Ecomomic Reality
The world over countries, corporations and individuals, directly and indirectly, assign their own fiscal strength based on the US dollar’s standard. The US public debt exceeded over $9 trillion dollars in 2007 and practically all of the US national debt owned by foreigners is held by private investors except for central banks, which hold 64%. In June 2007 the Federal Reserve reported its amount at US $755 billion. That means the size of the foreign owned portion of the amount owing was almost three times the total amount of currency in circulation.
More that 40 % of American families spend more than they earn. In fact, the average US family’s credit card balance is now almost 5 % of its annual income (with a median U.S. household income presently at $43,200), and personal bankruptcies in US have doubled in the last decade and the overall consumer debt has reached $2.46 Trillion as of June 2007 (excluding the $440 billion of revolving home equity loans, $600 Billion owed for second mortgages and an overall $9 Trillion in mortgage debt). As such, the total US consumer revolving debt grew to $904 Billion in 2008.
Whether or not jobs will go to US workers or instead be outsourced depends on whether the US can provide sufficient value in a global marketplace. Outsourcing has gone overseas because
(1) it could - via the internet, and
(2) it made economic sense for the corporation.
Unless the US government imposes restrictions on the current model, you can expect that to prevail.
Consider, the total US debt is 3.5 times the GDP. Until this debt is reduced, there is no recovery in sight.
The second wave of mortgage defaults will peak in 2010 and the third in 2012 when the peak of 5 year r and 7 year AMRs reverts to the prevailing interest level. Is anyone imagining that the interest level in 2010 will be lower than now? Yet, better than 50% of AM-morgtage holders that are currently defaulting cannot pay the current interest rates. Add in an almost inevitable Cap-and-Trade scheme (which failed in Europe, bigtime) and the race to raise fees of all sorts from city to state level, and you really don’t have a lot of disposable cash on the part of consumers to purchase. Look for large numbers of small business failures, retail merchants, small banks, small cities, and on and on. The bottom has not been reached; merely a plateau. -
People will still be able to create and achieve, except whatever they create
and achieve is shared by all or the people. -
What motivated people to achieve before money existed?
Survival basically, which later led to acquisition of resources (i.e. food, shelter, clothing) to ensure better survival. Eventually, acquisition of resources led to comforts, which led to the acquisition or resources as a primary motivation. Money served as a proxy for resources and also made leverage possible: which could facilitate the acquisition of even more resources.
One of the major problems I see if not the greatest problem is the EGO. This EGO, this ME is a great enemy and there is always someone who will come along and ruin a good thing.
I think suppressing the individual ego might even lead to more ruin--because this might lead to masses of people freely dependent on the achievments of a few instead of each person motivated by his or her own achievments. By subordinating the self to the needs of the whole, this neither rewards achievment nor encourages innovation from people who are freely dependent.
What would be the incentive for people to reach beyond themselves? How would we enforce that incentive? -
I don't think so, many indigenous tribes had a great culture and their people were happy. All their people had a task to do and a purpose for their tribes survival. It doesn't mean suppressing EGO but keeping it in check.
Tibetan monks will tell you that an over-flated EGO is the prime world enemy.
Statements made by many such as "Greed is good" is FALSE and is ruining our planet.
-
-
-
Nobody cares about your spam.
-
-
Well I must say that I am enjoying reading all the different views on this topic
and I find myself agreeing with you all for the most part.
I don't necessarily believe anyone to be wrong or right in their views on the topic but I am enjoying reading your views and for the most part what you had to say makes sense to me. Thank you all who decided to drop by and participate. Keep it coming. -
Most of us do not consider ourselves to be in an economic crisis and this may be the prime reason why we don't think a world of bartering is possible but come tomorrow when our stock market crashes and our dollar bill fails us, you can be you hypocrites who cannot see a world run by bartering will find ways to barter.
However I am enjoying the comments so let it rip. -
CORRECTION. you can bet you hypocrites who cannot see.....
-
-
I sure as hell am in an economic crisis. I just paid 10.50 for a pack of cigarettes - Imagine how much the doctor bills from the cancer are gonna cost.
I gave thought to this today, about the bartering thing - I wonder what I would take as payment for creating a website, I figure gold bars would suffice, but that's hardly bartering at all since dollars are based on gold. I would certainly take 60 cartons of cigarettes.. -
What would John Galt do? -
-
One of the major problems I see if not the greatest problem is the EGO.
This EGO, this ME is a great enemy and there is always someone who will come along
and ruin a good thing.
Once this EGO/ME is established, we will have a problem of greed once again and covertousness. There will always be someone who cannot control their urge to dominate and rule over all. This EGO/ME will find a way to step in to control the masses who are running good productive lives, run by a honest system of bartering.
The idea of bartering does sound so promising but how do we keep this EGO/ME in check? What steps can the people take to make sure that this EGO/ME stays at bay?
The native american indians had the same problem when they already saw in dreams that the white man would over-run their lands. The bow and arrow was no match for guns and cannons. They were powerless and were forced to watch their people succumb to alcohol
or firewater. Their people started to covert and wanted to trade and sell their brothers for a few trinkets offered to them by the white man.
Can a system of bartering really be effective in the long run?
That may depend on how long we as a people would employ it's use. -
The Bartering Business
www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcTrTjcnxns
The New Age Of Bartering
www.youtube.com/watch?v=kGMtyCX_DPY&feature=related
Bartering for Rutland, VT. #1
www.youtube.com/watch?v=d0ajYYT2xz8&feature=related
One thing is for sure, people are starting to get some really cool ideas and ways to get the things they need. -
What would happen if we stopped paying for things with money and started to barter?
We'll be back to history.
What would happen if we created a world where most everything was free?
$$$ I'll hardly see this
What would happen if our basic necessities like water, electricity, free energy, etc
was free and a moral basic right for all living?
There'll be no one to take care..
Is this concept impossible? Is this concept something that you cannot imagine?
This is something I cannot imagine..
Can it be done or even become a reality and what can we do to make it so?
The Creator must reset everything -
Lot's of people are seeing it and lot's of people are already doing it.
Bartering Business
www.youtube.com/watch?v=ag7i1Hwy9xM&feature=related
The Daligoddess Tax Day Bartering Contest
www.youtube.com/watch?v=kNAwr_hZK0s&NR=1 -
Bartering Social Networks - (Just do a Google search for "bartering social networks")
Zigime: Social networking site-Barter exchange-Barter services
help.com/post/189871-zigime-social-networking-site-bart
Openmusic: A barter Social Network for Musicians, Bands and Fans
groups.drupal.org/node/4215
Coomuto provides bartering on Facebook
weseepeople.blogspot.com/2008/08/coomuto-provides-bartering-on-facebook.htm...
People are doing it yau'll -
Cribs on MTV - You've all seen the show and I can't understand why anyone would need 1800 pairs of shoes to be happy and contented.
17 Lamborghini's and Ferrari's to be happy and to feel more of a man.
The idea of more will make you happy is FALSE and when we start to teach our children
it's not quantity but quality, they may come to appreciate and understand true happiness.
Hopefully the bartering system will do that like it has for the native american indians
and many other indigenous tribes and people globally.
Cribs on MTV
www.youtube.com/watch?v=bD1GJRiQIrw -
Some interesting blogs on bartering in this failed economy
MBE Barter-The Solution for the Economic Collapse
www.tram-barter.blogspot.com/
Barter Economy
news.bbc.co.uk/today/hi/today/newsid_7848000/7848677.stm
A barter economy for art in Phila.
www.philly.com/philly/entertainment/20090308_A_barter_economy_for_art_in_Ph... -
Nah, can't happen IMO. It's been tried and it's called Socialism. In all cases "pure" socialism has failed. You'd have to have a society where all people agree to play by the rules, and in large groups that's not possible.
I think there are ways to have mini-barter economies, but not on a large scale.-
A barter economy is NOT Socialism.
Socialism is a political structure - barter economies are an economic structure, and can occur regardless of the political structure in place.
-
-
There has got to be a way to do it without it becoming too pure as dinsquared put it.
These economic structures can work with the right motivation to make it happen or work.
If money was involved you can bet we would find a way but we really have to remove this self-doubt and find a way. It can be done, it may not be looked at as socialism but something more watered down or even improved on. I really believe a new system will come out of it in time and it won't be looked at as socialism or even called socialism but something else. -
Some believe that bartering is in fact illegal in America as it is considered a form of tax evasion.
People have been arrested for the use of barter currency.
Bartering should be an option to any person and, or business imo. It may be something that works for some while not being a viable option for others.
Not being able to barter means, again imo, that persons are less free.-
Who has been arrested for bartering?
-
rfburnhertz...I'm glad you brought this up.
There seems to be something in the capitalist system that wants to do away with bartering since goods are traded and there is no money involved most of the time
but if money is involved the IRS can possibly swoop down and stop the show on those who are having their cake and eat it too.
You cannot and should not have a system of trade and then employ money or currency too, that would get a lot of people into trouble and they would make it bad for others who only want to trade fairly without having money involved.
This is what I am afraid of. If laws are passed within a capitalistic society to reign down on bartering, people will take it to the underground markets.
Obviously the capitalist will see bartering as a threat and enemy to their system of things and we may have to remove or find a way to destroy their puny capitalist system that doesn't work and hasn't worked for many people for many years.
In this society we have no middle class. You're either rich or poor. -
Also I would like to add that not everybody in America pays taxes and it's legal.
I had at least 10 people from Vermont who came to my optical shop with a paper for me to sign to not charge them sunglass tax. YES this is fact, some people do not pay retail taxes and it is legal for this chosen few. How the get away with it I have no idea.
-
-
Anok,
the most recent I recall (if I recall correctly) was in Illinois in 2007 or 2006.
I have to go off line right now otherwise I'd Google it, but I'm sure a phrase like "illegal barter" or "illegal barter in America"... would pull some results.
If you or another don't get the chance to Google it then I will later.
P.S.- my wife say's I'm thinking of something that had to do with "barter currency". She might be right, but I know there are other cases.-
Well, when you get the chance...I'd be interested in reading it over!
-
Me too, I need to read up on how this capitalist system will try to kill bartering.
-
-
I haven't found a lot.
Seemingly one, weather an individual or a business, must be a part of a 'barter exchange' and the IRS uses the barter exchange as a third party record keeper for purpose of the transactions and those who are bartering.
Tax rate on bartering?
I can't find anything in a admittedly not too in depth search.
The two cases I found in my search of persons arrested were persons arrested for tax evasion.
The arrest I wrote about earlier was in Illinois and the people were using 'barter currency'. Illegal tender, seemingly they (a couple) had a silver coin worth $20.00 and tried to pay for a meal with it, but because it was not legal American tender, they were arrested. It was a 'Liberty dollar', whatever that is.
As I went through some of the pages that came up I found it a little more encouraging than what I had perceived.
It looks like it may not be altogether rare, but then there is still the bartering exchanges and bartering groups. The groups apparently can be fairly expensive to join.
So, perhaps because I am old, my memory did not serve me as well as I had thought it did. The arrests are based upon tax evasion from the bartering transactions.
Pay your bartering tax I suppose and you'd be good to go.
So far as I am concerned people should be able to barter without government interference. The majority of people would still use currency and still pay taxes and it is highly unlikely that many people could exist completely off of bartering.
Our system is not capitalist by any means, it hasn't been for 100 years or more I'd guess. A purely capitalist system would not hinder bartering of any kind.-
can I barter with the government to settle my barter tax?
-
rfburnhertz...Thank you for providing what you found, most appreciated.
YES people should be able to freely barter without government interference
and tax charges. WHY should the people pay taxes when money is not involved?
Equal trade is involved. Not cash.
Other parts of the world do not enforce that the people who barter in their lands pay bartering taxes.
But of course it looks like America has to find a way to have a cut of the profits regardless, even when there is no money involved or exchanged. RIDICULOUS
We need to find a way to pass a law or challenge this system. I find what they are doing to be unconstitutional but I'm not a lawyer so I can't be sure how that will play out or even it it is unconstitutional.
If we as a people want to implement this bartering thing on a full scale we will have to find a way to get rid of this ridiculous capitalistic system that ain't helping nobody.
If the government could tax my asshole I am sure they would find a way. Good God. -
Can I barter with the government to settle my barter tax?
Well that's the thing, it really should have nothing to do with their puny capitalist system, so why should those who barter have anything to do with them if the bartering system is employed correctly?
It should be totally separate and should have nothing to do with a capitalist society. -
Thanks for getting back to us. I figured it was something more along the lines of breaking some sort of law, rather than bartering itself (which is not illegal).
I wonder how a barter tax can be enforced, since taxes are based on a percentage of money.
If I pay $1 for something then I would pay the tax on that one dollar.
If I pay $0 for it, then I pay the tax on $0.
I would suppose that taxes on large items (say, the bartering of a parcel of land) would simply have to come in from the back - meaning larger property taxes. Because if you haven't paid anything for something, then it's free. (Essentially).
*shrug* -
Yup that's how I feel about it too Anok.
I will be doing some more reading up on this as I am obviously not the spokesmodel for bartering, I am trying to learn up as much as I can on bartering but it really shouldn't be taxed. If you haven't paid cash for something it is essentially FREE
and this is the kind of FREE I was talking about and had in mind earlier.
Bartering is growing in numbers and more social networks for bartering are popping up all over the web. People are interested in bartering and are finding ways to communicate with one another to make it happen.
-
-
I would like to live in such a world, it resembles me the Earth's Paradise (the idea which came into being in my mind many years ago). I'm an idealist, but life has taught me to be more rational, so I don't have trust in the condition of our human race. I see we are becoming worse and worse, destroying our lives on the Earth, devastating the wild nature and competing all the time in the rats' race.-
Yup we are killing this planet, it's this capitalist system of greed that is doing it.
We only have so many resources and with so many people who need to be fed, we don't have enough food sources to feed them all. We have to find a way to get rid of this system that has created this problem of over-fishing, over-drilling for diamonds and other minerals, pollution, water shortages, greed, and all the other evil things that comes with it and replace it with something else more beneficial if we are to survive as humans.
Native Indians use to say one day the white man will keep grabbing until there is nothing left for him to receive.
There comes a time when the giving tree will say "Get off me bitch".
-
-
Jeunelle,
the American government will tax anything and everything it thinks it can.
Just so I don't give the wrong impression, I am a big believer in America, just not in it's current form. I believe our founders did create the best sytem of government man had ever seen and if we had stuck with it instead of trying to tweak it the nation would be all the better for it today.
Even as we are currently I think America remains the best nation, but other look fairly appealing. Ireland for instance.-
Yup for the most part I do agree but we do need to find another way to feed the millions of mouths that will be on the rise soon, unless we create a war to kill off half the population, then we won't have to worry about feeding them.
Why did I just say that? Well that is how this government thinks.
Nothing last forever and this system will fall and give rise to something else,
it's just a matter of time.
All civilizations stands for a while and eventually falls, no matter how great we thought it was. The founding fathers had something and maybe someone will find a way to incorporate their teachings into a new more workable system. -
well according to some people all the christians in the world could feed all the hungry people....get cracking you christians,
-
-
This topic totally relates to a documentary I saw recently called "Zeitgeist: Addendum Part II". It starts off slow, giving the background as to how money is "made", how it used to be in the Old Old days, the corruptions involved, the creation of the federal reserve, the, and basically the failures and shortcommings of todays "monetary system", and goes on to paint a possibility of a future society based on "resources" and a society based on finding and living out value...
video.google.com/videoplay?docid=7065205277695921912-
@Jays Transformation....OMG thank you so much for the info and link.
I will definitely take the time to view it. Most appreciated. -
@Jays Transformation...Money is debt and debt is money. Great video
Money is created out of debt through loans. Debt=Slavery
Remove money and let start to live our lives.
Money the root of all evil.
-
-
@Jays Transformation.... perpetual debt, corruption, greed, assassination, emperor corporations and we wonder why our children come out to be criminals, murderers, thieves.
This system has created these things and we continue to allow it based on dependence and slavery. This is not the America that our Founding Fathers had in mind. -
i wud love to barter.. i have a lot of inspirational stuff .. any takers??-
Hook up with some of those people in the bartering social network links I provided above, they may be interested.
-
-
What would happen if we stopped paying for things with money and started to barter?
You'd take society back to before the economic calculation problem was solved with currency in the first place.
necrofiles.blogspot.com/2008/07/babes-and-badases-review-of-black-seeds.htm...
What would happen if we created a world where most everything was free?
Everything would not only lose its price, but also its value.
What would happen if our basic necessities like water, electricity, free energy, etc was free and a moral basic right for all living?
You'd demotivate a large segment of the population. This is evident England's Chav culture, who would rather live off welfare than work. England pays for their welfare with migrant labour.
Is this concept impossible? Is this concept something that you cannot imagine?
Can it be done or even become a reality and what can we do to make it so?
It's easily accomplished. All you need is one populist leader who nationalises private industry and you're done. Zimbabwe is a recent case in point. They have among the world's highest inflation thanks to Robert Mugabe. Despite industry grinding to a halt, they have a thriving barter system in place. The problem is that you can only store perishable goods for so long, whereas money has a longer shelf life. Well, not Zimbabwean money - it's not even real money, it's bank guaranteed cheques and it has an expiry date on it.
Everything in Zimbabwe is free. But there isn't a whole lot of it, because it doesn't pay anyone to produce, as the government confiscates your produce for their cronies or for dishing it out to others.
The people of Zimbabwe are seriously demotivated and many of them are streaming into neighbouring countries. Not that I mind, they're very pleasant people for the most part and they're hard working and educated. They're also bright enough to realise that being dependent on your government is not a long-term solution and that bartering only takes you so far.-
You made me laugh when you said that Zimbabwean money is not real money. Neither is the US dollar. Robert Mugabe is corrupt and should be removed.
He is no good for the people, especially when he is murdering them.
Demotivation may not be a bad thing as it keeps deforestation, over drilling,
over fishing and pollution down.
Here we have a lot of seafood restaurants and a shortage of fish in the oceans due to these seafood restaurant big business chains. Resources are used up too fast with big business and chains in this economy and that is killing our planet. -
Um, Zimbabweans are in no danger of over drilling or deforestation. Their agricultural sector collapsed.
So a few million destitute people are a small price to pay for a little environmental bliss? -
And demotivation does not mean that they aren't consumers. They just aren't producers any more, but they're still consumers. Only they aren't careful about what they're consuming or how much, because they don't pay for it.
-
I am not the Spokemodel for Zimbabwe but I know that Zimbabwe is also a country that is being exploited, no matter how you look at it. Paradise is not in Zimbabwe either.
-
-
Mugabe probably deserves the same fate as Saddam if the real truth ever comes out.-
So does Bush, he murdered thousands of people too, none of them were good men.
-
The real truth is out, but Mugabe has powerful political friends. Case in point: he came to power with a military coup, just like the leader of Madagascar. Madagascar's leader gets thrown out of SADEC, but Mugabe doesn't. It's not who you are but who you know after all.
-
The African Union is a rather corrupt body. Not in itself, but due to the leadership of the majority of states within it
-
@flamingpoodle....What you say is true....
The corrupt know the corrupt and that is how they are able to stay in power.
However I do not mean to draw attention and a spotlight to only Mugabe, Mugabe is nothing compared to our American Government that is CORRUPT and breeds CORRUPTION on a Global Scale.
Too much attention is drawn to leaders like Mugabe to deflect off the true MURDERS when they are not even the ones who are really responsible for the Mass murders and enslavement of the human race while killing the planet. -
Agit8r...YES corruption is widespread in Africa.
The true leaders of America who are in power will send in the one's who can offer bribes to corrupt the leaders of that nation or African leaders and this is what they do.
-
-
A nuclear war might help achieve that. Have you read 'The Road'?-
AnEnglishManAbroad...A nuclear war will NEVER stop man's Aggression and Ego and make man become more humble and contented.
-
-
I believe going back to old trade is a good idea to a degree. How about making a completely new country for all of those people who led the government and companies along with wall street to move to and let the people who made it legitimately on their own to flourish in an honest society. Now that is a DREAM -
The only way I see to do this EFFECTIVELY is to find and remove the hidden emperors who do control this global economy. The problem is they remain hidden and we do not know who they are. They are the ones who are running this economy and enslaving the race and we do not have the tools to identify them and remove them. They are way above the Presidents and Popes. How do we find them?
We cannot employ the ideal of bartering on a larger scale without removing them. They are most foul, most corrupt and will find and employ those to step in to ruin bartering nations while forcing the people into corruption, greed and ego and we are back to where we started all over again. -
@Jeunelle,
I thought this was rather well done, although I think one should also consider the sheer weight of the debt based system instituted almost 100 years ago in the US.
www.youtube.com/watch?v=B7Tz8l-t1o4 -
Yup meet the true criminals
The Eyes Wide Shut theme playing in the background is brilliant -
Stanley Kubrick who made the movie "Eyes Wide Shut" died shortly after too.
The media says he died of a heart attack but ya know.......
-
-
@Jeunelle
Were you at those London riots? lol
-
@Agit8r...NO
Which riots are you talking about, I must of miss them? -
At least one of the groups was protesting for the abolishment of money.
news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/7977489.stm
just giving you crap (as I did to Anok, in another thread). All in good fun, mind you -
Agit8r...No offense taken. I am glad you provided a link.
I will take a look at it now. Thank you -
Ahhh yes just viewed it. These types of protest are not effective and no one wins. Can't discuss it here on this open platform but the way to get what you want is not this way. There is another way that is most effective.
-
I'm pretty sure if he's not picking on you, he doesn't like you...
-
@Anok. I am like so numb to who likes and dislikes me now that it doesn't even matter to me at this stage of the game. I know how to speak to people with respect and get my point across without having to cuss them but then again. lmao
-
pick, pick, that's me. Agit8ing, no?
-
Agit8r....looks like the protesters are having a rough time and they will.
The governments are already set up to NUKE this kind of outrage from the people. They will make arrest and shoot and kill who ever stands in their way.
To get what we want will mean we have to take it to a new level and a more intimate and hidden way. Not public. -
It's a kind of a sad thing. The whole G20 has been less than smooth.
-
Agreed and the old ways of protesting and picketing are not effective.
This is a new era and we need to find better ways to get our point across.
Mass destruction of the human race and the planet has already begun.
The Free energy sources or ideas that will arrive will become corrupt
as long as this system continues.
-
-
-
Rockefeller Reveals 9/11 FRAUD to Aaron Russo
www.youtube.com/watch?v=7nD7dbkkBIA&feature=related
Bye the way Aaron is dead, they killed him off in Cuba
Died of cancer my ass, they removed him. -
@Jeunelle,
I heard him when he first came out, he had just come back from a cancer treatment in Germany. There are quite a few who rehash what's already out there, for unawoved purposes or not. Not to demean him (RIP), I don't think he was a target or anything. I couldn't vouch 100 per cent of course -
The media all says that he died after a long battle with cancer.
That could very well be true but then again I find it funny that those who do speak out against this system disappear from public view one way or another.
-
-
then we don't have to care if we turned off the lights, the faucets, or gas. That could be more terrible because it can create fire or flood at home I think. -
everything happens to be free? This won't happen. I think there would not be any God then...
irene-whatsoever.blogspot.com-
Jesus's love is free...
just being a smart@ss, of course
-
-
Nothing is free in this world. Except in western Europe. But be ready to pay a minimum of half of your salary in taxes... -
I think everyone should get of this word "FREE" that I threw into the pie.
I did not mean FREE in the way you all think.
It is obvious that nothing will be FREE in this world because you all cannot envision a FREE WORLD, so your "eyes are wide shut" and mankind remains in self doubt, slavery,
darkness & chaos.
Add Your Comment
Login to leave a message.
