Discussions
Who Do You Blame ?
Posted by gerryPlanetEarth • 8/04/09 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: crime
Civilisation has dramatically declined in North America...
Bizzare,horriffic murderous crimes continue to escalate especially murder by guns in North America...
Gone forever it seems is the Ozzie and Harriet, Happy Days etc. era of innocence and morality in North America...
Who is to blame for this decline in public safety ?
Is it the Left wingers who have for the most part eliminated capital punishment, created bizzare lax juvenile offender laws that causes adult criminals to use juveniles to take advantage of the zero-penalty for juvenile crimes, and promoted abortion and same sex marriage ?
Is it the Right Wingers whose promotion of war has resulted in a global epidemic of surplus guns and weapons manufacturers ?
Is it the media,Hollywood,Music Industry etc. ?
Is it the cocaine and heroin producers and distributors, and/or the Pharmaceutical industries ?
The governments ?
Or/And ?
User Comments
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Hmm a well thought out, serious discussion thread.I was not expecting that and I am not prepared to answer, unless I can blame Oprah? -
Humans are to blame. 'Nuff said. -
No one is to blame and nothing really changed if you look at it. There have been horrific murders and mutilations and torture from the time when we began penning the human history.
What's changed is that with easy access to news, we get to KNOW more of it these days.-
and the increase in population -
Actually, some things have changed. Sexual immorality is more common, school shootings, despite more difficult access to firearms, are thousand's of times more common (in between 1900 & 1960 there was exactly ONE school shooting, at UT Austin, in 1953), crime is much more rampant in American inner cities even though the mafia is mostly gone, divorce is more common, thing is that most of these things, when you really look at it, can be connected to respect and honor, two things that have been practically educated out of our society and people. -
@JeremyJason,
Interesting stats. Curiously, the MK Ultra programme was launched in 1953.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_MKULTRA
I would be interested in seeing full statistics since 1953. Wasn't there a period around 2000 where these type of killings plummetted? -
I wouldn't say sexual immortality is more common, but we're more open about it. Which is good, because diseases no one will admit are being spread can't be prevented or treated. -
@rokphoenix
"There have been horrific murders and mutilations and torture from the time when we began penning the human history.
What's changed is that with easy access to news, we get to KNOW more of it these days."
I fully agree with you on the above two statements...
"No one is to blame and nothing really changed if you look at it. "
I strongly disagree with the above statement...In North America public safety has deteriorated dramatically in most cities as has human morality etc. -
@gerryPlanetEarth
"I strongly disagree with the above statement...In North America public safety has deteriorated dramatically in most cities as has human morality etc."
Sorry for the late reply.
Yes, I could be wrong on that. I think morality is still the same just that more people are open about it. I mean if we look back at history, there are times when gruesome murders, child killings, rape, torture was considered as a strategic part of an attack.
I am not saying that things haven't changed and everything is the same. I honestly think that we are better off right now than compared to those times when there was no morality and it was just the survival of the strongest.
I do agree that more can be done and probably will be.
I also think that as time passes sometimes things that are considered immoral "gains" more acceptability.
It's like when they repeat things a 100 times it just gets in your head and starts to resemble the truth even when it is not. Maybe its just a part of adapting.
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So there wasn't horrible murderous crimes in the 1800's, 1700's, 1600's etc? You must have different history books than I do. -
"Civilisation has dramatically declined in North America..."
I find your basic premise faulty, in error.
rokphoenix said: "What's changed is that with easy access to news, we get to KNOW more of it these days."
^^This. This is true. -
[Civilisation has dramatically declined in North America...]
Has it really? I don't see it.
[Bizzare,horriffic murderous crimes continue to escalate especially murder by guns in North America...]
Nothing new here, except that advances in forensic science and telecommunications allow us to bring more murderers to justice.
[Gone forever it seems is the Ozzie and Harriet, Happy Days etc. era of innocence and morality in North America...]
You say "era of innocence and morality," I say "era of blindness and naivety."
[Who is to blame for this decline in public safety ?]
I'd hate to break it to you, but crime is actually decreasing, and it has been since 1993. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crime_in_the_United_States
The rest of your questions are based on the premise that things are getting worse, so I won't bother responding to them. -
“Out beyond ideas of wrongdoing and rightdoing, there is a field. I will meet you there.” -- Rumi -
I don't know that I agree civilization has declined. What I believe is we have greater and faster access to events which makes us think we are a more dangerous society than we were before.
Actually if I remember my days of criminal justice accurately, we are no less violent today than we were years ago. Some even suggest we are less violent but with access to everything happening everywhere at the nano second it happens makes us feel danger is lurking around every corner.
At the end of the day I don't believe humans are doing different things we are still raping, robbing and murdering we are just finding different tools to execute. -
we've become too accustomed to the violent side of life and the lack of morals. Because of this we don't react to horrific behaviors and outrageous acts. I guess we can blame ourselves. Technology advanced and with it went our innocents and values. The more we brought the world into our homes, the more we became jaded to what can and did happen. -
I don't think this is a new concept. Honestly can you compare today with the days of the Vietnam war, or the days of the death of Kennedy or the Manson murders. Not to say that today is not worse..obviously the numbers don't lie. But we have more advance technology, a higer sense of alert and there are severely more people here now than there used to be...I think progression is to blame. As things get better, things get worse. We have a Black president. We have cures for things that used to puzzle the mind. We have clearner running cars. We have communication technology that blows anything from the past away. And yes, we have a much more severe level of violence and crime. That's life everywhere. -
I blame uncontrolled materialism. At least in America. In Europe, people are happier. They have more balance in their lives, and six weeks of vacation. Here in the U.S., what do we have? Stress and anxiety, and 2 weeks of vacation. Is that what life is all about?-
I hope to live my life to where I never have to look forward to two weeks of vacation.
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i blame his dad for bringing him to our town. he should have left him where he was before: unknown to me! -
"Ignorance of history causes us to libel our own times. People have always been like this."
Flaubert -
"The life of words is not independent of the life of ideas. The word civilization, which our ancestors did very well without, perhaps because they had the thing itself, spread during the 19th century under the influence of new ideas. The scientific discoveries, the development of industry, of commerce, of prosperity and of material welfare had created a kind of enthusiasm and even a kind of prophetics. The conception of indefinite progress, dating from the second half of the 18th century, helped to convince mankind that it had entered upon a new era, that of absolute civilization." René Guenon
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"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind."
--- Gandhi-
i still like it though. i say an eye for 2 eyes. a tooth for 32 teeth.
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Lisa, thanks for these wonderful quotes. You have great values, and I know your heart is in the right place.
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yes, her heart is in SQ
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What's SQ?
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San Quentin the hotel Scott Peterson stays at
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Thanks, NP.....love your Flaubert quote, never heard that one. Thanks for posting it.
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I blame cops... they are a complete waste of resources that could fund something worthwhile, rather than a continuous rampage of murder, beatings, coecion, corruption, mollestation by the roadside, etc...
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There was civilisation in North America? -
I think looking for something to blame never helped anything. Can't we all just take part in the responsibility to try and make things better instead? Pointing fingers is pointless, so to speak...-
I agree. A lot of people don't want to take responsibility, though... -
sure it has. scapegoating or some variation of it is central to every culture. anthropologists question why, and the answer is usually related to the dialectic dynamic of cultural (re)formation that, in order to happen, must undergo a period of decline which then creates a demand for sacrifice, usually a figure representing the "other," whose death or destruction encourages the (re)integration of the afflicted group. this is why minorities are often blamed for increased crime, why italy has taken severe actions against romanian immigrants, why those of caucasian origin living in russia face constant racial discrimination, and why such and such do what to that and that...
while pointing fingers certainly seem unjust, it has an undeniably important cultural function that goes far too deep to be glibly deemed pointless. and responsibility is a term we use in order to lay claim to our awareness of an illusory civility that, we all know, we are incapable of possessing, let alone, exercising no matter how many advances we've made in science or to what lengths we've convinced ourselves of the necessity of political correctness.
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Passing the blame of our world onto items, beliefs, or groups is a weak way of looking at your own responsibility. There is no one to blame but yourselves. It's not the that the world has given you and your children more items to corrupt them, it's the fact that people don't know self control.-
Let us not neglect the role marketing and mass media have played in shaping the modern Homo economicus.
Highly recommended watching: Century of Self (BBC programme)
video.google.com/videoplay?docid=8953172273825999151 -
SHhhhhhhh! I'm part of that marketing machine!
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I agree with all those who say *we're* to blame. You and I.
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It's America trying to emulate the Roman Empire. The U.S. will suffer the same fate as Rome!-
Toga! Toga!
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Excuse me while I kill this thread
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Thanks.
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glad to help
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Y'know, if you could overlay the paranoia chart that instant, sensationalized TV and Internet coverage has created they'd be just about perfect opposites. Consider the increase in crime reporting that's occurred over that same span of time and you can really see how dramatic the change is. -
If you'd like to see the Canadian equivalent click the link below for the graphs. Violent crime severity stable over past 10 years - The Police-reported Violent Crime Severity Index declined 3% in 2008, mainly due to the 7% drop in the rate of robberies and a 10% drop in attempted murders.
www.statcan.gc.ca/daily-quotidien/090721/dq090721a-eng.htm
When I read the statements in the OP of this thread commencing with this dubious one: Civilisation has dramatically declined in North America... I do cannot agree with them, nor can anyone who is aware of the facts and figures.
What I believe we are experiencing is an increase in paranoia ie. the public perception that violent crime is increasing when it isn't. The media always feeds the masses what they want to hear and read, so here's a prime example of "the masses are asses". I wonder if every generation possess the odd inclination to glorify "the bad old days", and present them as though they were "the good old days"?
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civilization has always been in decline. and appropriately enough discourses of cultural decline tend to always emerge slightly preceding and just following the turn of a century - perhaps paranoia is ten-folds increased if it happens to be a turn of a millennium. it's only a matter of time before we reach and pass 2012 or some randomly appointed date, and yet again look with disappointment at nostradamus' or some pot-stirring, crystal ball-handling mystic's failed prediction, and then with crestfallen spirits direct our attention to another hundred or 1000 years of existential drudgery ahead of us.
civilization will continue as it always has, punctuated by rises and declines in crime, and whatever else your opening remarks mentioned. just wait long enough, and people will calm their asses down.
as for whom to blame...well...no one. the question is what to blame. my answer is time. -
Ah yes, the good old "Ozzie & Harriet" days, when spouse abuse was socially acceptable & no one spoke about child molestation. "Happy Days" indeed. Your premise is a myth.-
That's for sure.
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"Your premise is a myth"
SOUTHWEST PHILADELPHIA - August 20, 2009 (WPVI) -- Lawmen are looking for the mugger who assaulted a 100-year-old man last week.
There's outrage on the 6700 block of Grovers Avenue in Southwest Philadelphia since news spread their 100-year-old neighbor Joseph Dimarco was beat up and robbed for $30 and his groceries.
Philadelphia Police Lt. John Walker told reporters, "An African American man, we believe in his 30's, comes from behind, throws him on the ground, and beats his head against the curb.
From there Walker explains the man ran away... leaving Dimarco unconscious. He suffered bleeding on the brain. -
I'm not denying these violent acts are still taking place. I'm saying that the stats for reported violent crimes are going down in the US and remaining close to unchanged in Canada over the last ten years.
I think in comparison to the days of Ozzie and Harriet that blanket media coverage we now have has made a huge difference to the public's knowledge of violent crime, no matter where it may be occurring, and to what we expect, which is for it to decline. I think we also expect to see a rapid decrease because we invest so much into policing and so strongly desire to feel safe. So every time a violent crime is reported now we become more fearful about violent crime overall increasing when it isn't.
What do you think about the stats showing violent crime is decreasing in the US?
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I would absolutely luv 2 put my 2 cents in on this one,but I share my opinions on stuff like this at twitter. Over there we talk over here...not so much -
Don't agree with some of the things you say, but I love the spirit of criticizing both the left and right wingers. That's what I do! -
Civilisation has dramatically declined indeed... and this is worldwide
The end is near, trust me.
All this talk about humans living longer productive lives will make no difference if you only knew whats in store for you _ ucks. -
human civilization has never been anything more or less than what it is today. there has always been violent crimes, it's just now we see it more because our population has expanded to an unprecedent number, which as a whole, society is not prepared for. morality is not currently at an all time low, the all time low came long before the B.C.E. and occurred in largely jewish and pagan regions of the world.
North America is quite strict with many of its laws. Freedom is a wish here, not a complete reality. Capital punishment is wrong, if you believe abortion is wrong, then capital punishment is just as wrong. Bad actions do not take away the probable importance of a certain individual existence. To smite the existence of one creature is wrong, yet to smite the existence of another is right? Society as a whole will kill anything ugly, strange, or dangerous with no second thought about it, however, we will not kill pretty, "normal", or passive things based on the simple fact that we think they are good and the other groups therefore "must" be bad. If we take the thought that capital punishment should be right, then killing everything in general should be right.
Same sex marriage doesn't contribute a bloody thing to the decline of morality, to entertain the idea that it does would be an act of idiocy and i will not show myself to be an idiot.
It's not guns who kill people, it's people who kill people. There are ridiculous weapons that should be done away with and seem barbaric even for war, but this is the really real world and it's doubtful assault weapons will ever go away. I believe our country should have very strict laws regarding the use of any firearm because there are a lot of nuts out there willing to take out any one of us. However, i do not blame weapons or republicans for violent crime (though i'd like to) in the US.
The media industry, music, and Hollywood have very little to do with the supposed decline of human morality in north america, again, i could blame overpopulation and general stupidity.
We also cannot blame cocaine or heroin producers.
We cannot blame pharmaceutical companies.
We cannot blame the government(s).
To point the finger at another is really to point the finger at ourselves. We get ourselves into these damn problems that lead up to crimes, why the hell can't we figure a better way out of them?
:a note: Bizarre, horrific murderous crimes are no more creative now than they were a few hundred or a few thousand years ago. In fact, i think the creativity in murders and killings has greatly declined.-
not before BCE times, sorry about that. *before A.D. times but during B.C.E times.
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