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Who was ruling the other in the Garden of Eden? The male or the female?
Posted by wdfavour • 12/27/08 • Subscribe to this Discussion [RSS] • Report This Topic
Topics: women
Who was in charge in the Garden of Eden? Was it the male, or the female?
I began to have this question in my mind when I read the curse placed on the woman, "...and your husband will rule over you." ~ Genesis 3:16
If this was a curse, it means that the husband wasn't ruling the wife from the beginning...
This leaves us with two options:
1.) They were equal, or
2.) The woman was in charge!
What do you think? Please give your reasons. I think the woman was in charge back then!!
User Comments
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The Garden of Eden is such a load of dribble.
It's a conspiracy by the control freaks of old to suppress women. It has continued for centuries. quite frankly that stuff should be ripped out of the Bible and whatever was there originally be restored. No sane God or religious person with any wisdom at all would include something like that.
and I'm not knocking Jesus, Christians or God here. Look at the story, from the word go, women a perceived as being a problem.
Sane women would never send their sons to war.-
I agree with you. The Garden of Eden story in the Bible is a myth. The presumption that man ought to rule women is asinine. The power and control freaks throughout the century have relied on this myth and other biblical myths as a means of subjugating women, children, gays and people of color. I'm appalled that you would treat this crappola as though it was factual.
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I understand your response to mean that you don't even believe that there was a curse at all, that the story is flawed!
Well, what I'm saying, assuming that story to be true, is that the implication of the statement, "...your husband will rule over you..." being a curse, is that it was not like that initially.
In that case, it's either they were equal, or the woman was in charge! I believe she was in charge.-
yes, it's a total lie.
religious nutters added something to the Sacred books to supress women. Some faiths even deny the of women to have a soul. Men with no intelligence believe this garbage and mistreat women.
There are parts of the Bible/ Torah which are beautiful. I find this sort of stuff as ,completely offensive and anyone that believes stuff like that to be true ought to
have a very long hard think about something like that. God is a God of love, not suppression and control. It's quite sickening really. -
Yeah, especially when it comes to buying a house. The woman is always in charge.Men don't seem to care too much about those things, unless they are single and buying a home then they have to be in charge...lol
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I don't think either one was in charge.
I have a big garden behind my house and I have three little dogs that spend a great deal of time in it. But, despite the fact that they spend much more time in the garden than I do, they are not in charge of it. I see to its watering, weeding, trimming, and planting...it is MY garden and I am in charge, despite the fact the it is inhabited by three little dogs, dozens of weaver birds, almost as many doves, and a couple of hadeda birds and their families. That Adam and Eve may have inhabited the garden doesn't imply either one was in charge.
As far as Eve being admonished that she would be ruled by her husband, in the context of the myth, this was undoubtedly her punishment for luring Adam into sin. In pragmatic terms, however, this part of the myth serves to justify patriarchalism and all its attendant inequality and abuse.-
It's unfortunate, but religion, culture and tradition have served as tools to surpress women. Yet it's important to turn even those tools around and use them for empowerment! What that admonition reveals is a simple logic: the woman must have been the leader back then.
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There is nothing in the myth to support that notion. In fact, according to the legend, god created her as a helper for Adam, clearly putting her in the subordinate position.
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There's nothing logical about believing that any part of this biblical myth is a reflection of truth. There is no evidence that the supposed creator god depicted in the bible exists now or has ever existed.
godisimaginary.com/ -
If you understand biblical phraseology, Helper is not a subordinate position, it's actually a leadership position. The Holy Spirit is called a 'Helper' in His role to the Church. In that sense, the woman's position was a leadership one.
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A helper does not necessarily mean that one is subordinate.
A father can have a daughter but that does not give him the right to abuse an use his child.
She is a gift from God and should be treated with reverance and respect, not ownership,
just sayin. Same for wives too, a wife isn't her husbands doormat and ownership is falsehood.
Nothing holds any permanence on this planet for us to hold anything possessively.
We have Sultan's today and Kings in Africa who still marry many wifes and concubines,
treating human beings as cattle and possessions.
Also the Bible may be a MYTH to SOME but not to EVERYONE and it's not my place to come
in here and start telling everybody that what they believe is FALSE AND MYTH.
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Maybe if there has been respect between the two, Eden will still be around. -
I think it was the snake that was in charge of Eden. It tricked the woman into eating the forbidden fruit.
The snake represents something i can't quite figure out.
Question:Was the snake male OR female?-
The snake is a symbolic depiction of the penis and the story is a loss of innocence myth.
I do NOT believe in the Christian construct of God. IMO the myth that a non-existent big guy in the sky created all there is including mankind declared them very good, and later condemned all mankind to the hell fires of damnation (original sin), just so he could appear on earth as his own son born of a (cough) virgin (possibly impregnated by another non-existent supernatural being called an angel) to fulfill the role of savior, and rescue a select few who were chosen before the foundations of time, from the same hell fires of damnation at end times, if and only if they believe in him, is beyond ridiculous. IMO it's delusional. -
I agree somewhat with tt's interpretation, but ironically, the snake is often represented as female in old old paintings... representative of non-patriarchal religions, often representing a female goddess... the mother of all... and also Kundalini which is coiled tight at the base of the spine...
demonizing the snake/female goddess was an important move by the patriarchal religions... I'm reading here that in Arabic, "the words for 'snake', 'life', and 'teaching' are all related to the name of Eve..." This could be total baloney for all I know. Does anyone know arabic etymology??? -
demonizing the snake/female goddess was an important move by the patriarchal religions ...
Yes I'm aware of this. -
duplicate removed
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Whether the story is fictional or not, over 2 billion people on this planet subscribe to a religion that takes that story as it's fundamental premise for existence. The traditional interpretation of that story has served as a tool to subjugate the wiser of the two human gender to millenia of abuse. The purpose of this thread is not to prove the existence or non existence of God, it is rather to investigate that story - and check if it's even reported and interpreted accurately. We can take the discussion of God's existence or non-existence to another Forum. Let's stay with the subject.
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and part of investigating the interpretation of it... even for the billions of people who believe it fundamentaly... is to discuss these exact ideas of the origin of the origin myth. Many people who believe it fundamentally, whether symbolically or literally, as is, do NOT know about the origins of the creation story. For those who have heard all the discussion we are having and choose to believe it literally, are going to be hard-pressed to be willing to not subscribe to Some aspect of women being inferior to men b/c of this story, and some will argue for a better understand as you do, but Ultimately, the fact remains that the story was originally meant as a means to subject women to male rule to one degree or the other. It is what it is, regardless of the spin new waves of believers put on it.
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Ultimately, the fact remains that the story was originally meant as a means to subject women to male rule to one degree or the other. It is what it is, regardless of the spin new waves of believers put on it.
I agree. Moreover, I can confirm that all evangelical fundamentalist Christians choose to believe in literal interpretation of the figurative language found in these myths. Consequently, they believe that women are meant to be subjugated to their male relatives and husbands.
They people are still laboring under the ridiculous notion that Moses composed the Pentetuch when it's clear there were multiple authors, each with different names for god, and each with a different focus in the books and portions thereof that they composed.
IMO the very fact that 2 billion brainwashed people, who have no compunction about imposing their belief system on others, and who have dominated the course of history to the detriment of all beings and the detriment of this planet still exist (assimilation & elimination of indigenous peoples & cultures, crusades, inquisition, slavery, witch burnings, homophobia, wars etc.) is an excellent reason for dispelling the creation myth. And any attempt by any person representing a paternalistic christian sect or denomination to make the creation myth more palatable by injecting the feminine back into it by giving the interpretation a new age spin fails to impress me. -
This thread is not intended to impress anyone...lol. Nor is it meant to be an attack on anyone's religion...or belief. The belief - "...the Holy book of a religious group of over 2 billion people is a myth..." - is also subject to being dismissed as a myth!!
Two billion people have a right to believe what they want, just as any one else. In a world where there's freedom of opinion, expression, and religious affiliations, people should be able to investigate other peoples faith - moslems, christians, hindu's, zoroastrians, new age, etc - without prejudice and subconscious anger...lol
The aim of this discussion is to examine the content of the story in the Garden of Eden. There are other stories, or 'myths'- each religion has theirs - I'm not bothered about dismissing it as a myth, that's not my business. Everyone has a right to believe and cherish their own sacred stories or 'myth' if it works for them and makes their lives worth bearing and living.
My concern is that these stories must be properly understood and interpreted and used not to diminish others, but to empower others.
So I continue to ask, who had the leadership role over the other in the Garden? Adam, or Eve. I think it was Eve. -
the snake is a symbol of wisdom
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If you want to stick purely to the myth as written, I believe it was Written by Men who delibrately Chose to show the hiearchy of Male over Female... Adam first, Eve second... in order of creation. Also... Eve was the one Tempted first. She was the one who first gave in... a sign of weakness. Yes, Adam was tempted as well and Chose to give into Eve's encouragement to eat the fruit... but Ultimately Eve was the one to be Convinced to eat from the tree... EVE was the one who FIRST DISOBEYED god's command to Not eat the fruit from the tree... and Eve in turn brought Adam (god's first in command) down with her.
Perhaps you can spin Eve convincing Adam to eat the fruit as an example of her leadership, but I think it is more an attempt to display that female leadership/temptation gets Humans in Big Trouble... -
If you want to stick purely to the myth as written, I believe it was Written by Men...
I do not yet have the audacity (or whatever else I may call it) to dismiss a story regarded by over 2 billion people as not only true, but sacred, as a myth! I'll leave that to more 'sophisticated' and 'enlightened' minds...lol.
So, it's not in my place to impute motives to whoever wrote it...every religion claims that their sacred book is of supernatural and divine origin, and hence infallible. I'll leave that to higher powers and those who are able, to discredit such claims.
Whatever the case, the woman's original status in the Garden must have been one of leadership and influence, as the curse implies.
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I think it's pretty clear that the Patriachs were all living in concubinage which is also a sin to the holy spirit.
The Kundalini is the upraised serpent within man, bringing him out of spiritual bondage.
This serpent is the same serpent that Moses raised up in the wilderness to cure the people from snake bite.
This serpent Kundalini is the same serpent seen upon King Tut's funeral mask,
this serpent Kundalini is also the Shekinah, the mate of God and the Sophia.
She (Holy Spirit of God) has counsel for her children. She offers Wisdom,
understanding, and strength to those that seek her. To understand the
Revelation of the Seven Seals Scroll is to receive Wisdom, Understanding
and Strength, making one Wise unto Salvation.
The Shekinah was said to reside in tents of her people.
Shakhan literally means "to dwell" or "to live with", or even "to pitch one's tent." The Shekinah means the God-Who-Dwells-Within, and developed primarily after the destruction of the Temple of Solomon in 587 BCE, especially as it proffered hope to a people lost in bitter exile. To console an Israel in Diaspora, the comforting, forgiving and loyal presence of the Shekinah emerged. In the Talmud it says: "They were exiled to Babylon, the Shekinah with them. They were exiled to Egypt, the Shekinah with them." And, it says in Lamentations 1, 5, "Her children are gone into captivity," and immediately after (1,6), "From Zion her splendour is departed." (Note the use of "her" for God and "splendour" is also one of the ways to describe the Shekinah). Other terms referring to the Shekinah are "the glory" and "radiance", and she was the cloud by day and pillar of fire by night that led the Israelites through the Sinai wilderness. She is also closely related to the Sophia tradition in the Hebrew Bible (the Old Testament) in Proverbs and other books.
Sophia (a Greek feminine noun) is the Wisdom aspect of God.
As a Wisdom Teacher Jesus was very closely related to the Sophia Tradition.
Adam was married to Lilith before he was with Eve.
Lilith wanted to be on top, especially in the bed and Adam just wouldn't go for that so she split
went off to brew a bunch of demons.
She was known to reside mainly in the desert dwelling places.
This Lilith later hooked up with King Solomon and the two were lovers.
Lilith's hairy hoofed foot could be seen when she walked across the King's palace floor's reflection. King Solomon lavished her with many great gifts.
Adam and Eve shared some kind of equality both participating in and with love in the garden.
They were busy naming the different species of plants and animals within the garden.
So "NO" I do not believe that women/men ruled the garden, it was not their place to rule anything,
they both were simply active participants and the garden was home to them before the fall
and they were later driven out by the flaming sword.
This talk about men being in charge is FALSE and holds no FACT in the Eye of the Shekinah.
She is alive and resides with me now, she helps and speaks to me on many different levels
and I can go into detail about that too but that is a different discussion.-
Also all this talk from others as if the Shekinah only belonged solely to the Israelites is FALSE.
The Shekinah resided in Egypt long before and later she left Egypt with Moses & the Israelites but that doesn't mean that she belongs solely to one race or group of people.
She belongs to all those who seek wisdom and an escape from this miserable planet.
Also this is a good a time as any to notice that GOD only has ONE MATE (the shekinah)
and there is no talk of GOD having any CONCUBINES.
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I think that the story of the garden of eden is a metephore for a belief of why man is inperfect and the beginnings of human life. You can't take every word literally, especially since the bible has hundreds of translations. I think that man and woman are equal partners in life. Not everyone thinks that, and that's fine too.-
'...not everyone thinks that, and that's fine too..'
It's always amazing to see individuals with an elevated consciousness, able to examine issues dispassionately like you do.
A lot of people think that the Garden of Eden's story is a 'myth' or 'metaphor'. Many more take it as literally true. As you said, each person has a right to what they want to think or believe. I leave that to each.
I read that story, and I think, "if that was a curse, then it wasn't the original status of the woman! So she must have had a different role from the beginning."
Like I said earlier, it introduces two possibilities:
1. They were equal.
2. The woman had the leadership role.
Your opinion is that it's no 1. That's ok. IMO, it's no 2.
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You missed the most obvious... God was and stil is in authority!
Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light
Gen 1:6 And God said, Let there be a firmament
Gen 1:9 And God said, Let the waters under the heaven be gathered together
Gen 1:11 And God said, Let the earth bring forth grass
Gen 1:14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament
Gen 1:17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven
Gen 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly
Gen 1:21 And God created great whales, and every living creature that moveth
Gen 1:22 And God blessed them, saying, Be fruitful, and multiply
Gen 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature
Gen 1:25 And God made the beast of the earth after his kind
Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image
Gen 1:28 And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply
Gen 1:29 And God said, Behold, I have given you every herb bearing seed
Gen 1:31 And God saw every thing that he had made, and, behold, it was very good
Gen 2:3 And God blessed the seventh day, and sanctified it
Gen 2:15 And the LORD God took the man, and put him into the garden of Eden
Gen 2:16 And the LORD God commanded the man
Gen 2:18 And the LORD God said, It is not good that the man should be alone
Gen 3:14 And the LORD God said unto the serpent, Because thou hast done this, thou art cursed above all cattle
Authority between man and woman, God commands:
Gen 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
Gen 3:17 And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;
Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden, to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
Hope this helps...-
@creemos...Gen 3:23 Therefore the LORD God sent him forth from the garden of Eden,
to till the ground from whence he was taken.
Gen 3:24 So he drove out the man; and he placed at the east of the garden of Eden Cherubims, and a flaming sword which turned every way, to keep the way of the tree of life.
exactly because after all how can you rule over anything if you are being thrown out of the garden? I can't rule over my own house, if I'm getting thrown out of it. Same in the garden.
If I was married and my husband wanted to throw me out of our house,
I would go in the other half of the house, he can't possibly throw me out of all of it. lmao
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LOL... whether a man or woman "rules" in their particular domain makes no difference to the One who created us! He has authority of each one of us and indeed, creation too!
Adam and Eve were cast out of Eden alright; but not from God's plans for they and those that would follow after them!
They still had authority to rule and to procreate - even outside of Eden! God's greater concern will be the submission to His authority!-
A King is dethroned if he rules unwisely.
Adam and Eve gets thrown out of the garden because what they did was unwise.
God's concern was the fact that his house was now becoming full of sin and toil.
Cain murdering Abel, and all else that was coming made God throw them out to save his santuary and it was a necessary move. He had to something quick or loose the house of life.
God's greater concern is not so much the submission to his authority but the purity of his house. He does not want his house defiled and I don't blame him. -
creemos: i understand this take on god's authority being the End All... first and last say, and male or female ... and that it doesn't matter. Yet, what is the role of women, in and out of the church, in and out of the home, in and out of all aspects of society, and in what way does the female role differ, and often is subjected to male hierarchy? In what way does "God's authority" throughout scripture, AND the evolution of generations of believers, set EXTREMELY different standards for women than men? Ultimately, though god/christ can be pointed to as the supreme and no one is unequal in his sight, women still have a different standard partly b/c of the very hierarchy of Man being created before woman.
When one writes symbolically... these details are Very Delibrate. If god, as the supreme authority to male and female, truly believes in equality between the sexes, he? could have/ would have been portrayed as creating them simultaneously and would have had BOTH be tempted, simultaneously... and not have Eve go to Adam to encourage him to backslide/sin. (3:1-6) it is EVE who gives in... WHY EVE? ... for starters. -
Yet too much attention is placed upon one (Eve) when the fact is they both partook of the fruit.
Adam sure didn't refuse it and so they are still equal even in sin as they both sinned.
They both failed and were both driven out of the garden.
A rape victim to me shows the same story, she is clearly raped yet the rapist gets off by using her as his scapegoat. "It was the woman who tempted me, she was wearing too provocative a dress and so I had no choice but to rape her". Oh give me a break. -
Yes... I have acknowledged that Both partook of it... yet the fact of the myth and myth writers remain... symbolically... EVE was the one who gave in first and initiated the outcome of Adam sinning as well. I never heard of anyone letting Adam off the hook entirely, but it remains the delibrate decision to have EVE initiate the sin... either as a weakness or example of poor female decision making skills. My argument still is rooted in the belief that this particular version of the creation myth was written by men... and when one tells and writes stories, myths, etc, one makes very careful and delibrate decisions regarding the characters... and Eve was the one who messed up first, and encouraged Adam to follow suit.
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yes... it is the same story used in rape... women tempting the man... and that is not the only scenario where women have been demonized.
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freeatlast....Yes I fully agree with you and I have a feeling that since it was written by men
it was obvious an attempt to gain control and power over women.
Women obviously were not ruled by their husbands and this is a very important piece of the puzzle. This is also the reason why marriage today in my eyes is nothing more than a scheme to control women, especially in the churches where she is pressured into subordination under her husband. For this reason I will never be stupid enough to marry.
The true church is a building up of what was once lost in women when husbands became rulers over their wives. No balance in any relationship, is a weak one. -
i think i see where you're going with this... or at least tying it to the original question... did women have leadership before being kicked out of Eden? Probably MUCH more than preferred, and the "getting kicked out" not only reinvented the hierarchy but gave rise to a new wave of stories that in a round about way placed much more of the blame on the woman. Therefore, once they are out, they are indeed much more under the thumb of male rule.
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yes... i agree strongly that marriage still takes too much power from women... i wholeheartedly agree with that.
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Yup and since the serpent is known to be a liar, a deceiver, a manipulator, and a sadist,
those who can't see this are deceived. I want my freedom and I have every intention of getting it.
I wouldn't be surprised if it was Adam who messed up 1st, then put the blame on Eve.
That would explain a lot, especially since it was the Patriachs who wrote most of the Bible.
I will keep my eye open for the answer. -
I wholehearted believe that we are not suppose to be married, not in the earthly sense
but a marriage to Godhead or a merging into Godhead.
The true church is a merging into Godhead and building up her (the church) in it's true sense and then preparing her as bride is the correct way and how it should of been and how it can be.
The bride (church) fell right when Adam got dominion over Eve and those who love God
will work to fully restore her. -
@freeatlast: i think i see where you're going with this... or at least tying it to the original question... did women have leadership before being kicked out of Eden?
First of all, IMO, it's disrespectful to dismiss the Holy Book of any religion as a myth. That dishonors the sensitivities of the countless numbers of people who have built their lives on such books.
When women understand that their current status of subjugation to men is not the original plan of God, they'll be more encouraged and empowered to embrace their original design and destiny. That's my point.
"Your husband shall rule over you..." This was said to her after they ate the fruit. ...so it was not so in the beginning, that is, the husband was not ruling over her...
So the original plan of God was not that MAN SHOULD RULE OVER WOMEN, OR HUSBANDS RULE OVER THEIR WIVES. The moment that fact is established, women can then do with it whatever they wish - throw off the oppressiveness of husbands and egocentric men!
A curse is intended to punish, to be painful; it's supposed to be a reversal of an existing beneficial status.
if Adam was the default ruler (in an arrangement where they were apparently equal), it wouldn't be much of a curse!
The fact that its written as a curse, implies that SHE WAS THE LEADER OF THE TWO!
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Genesis 2:20-25 clearly answers the question.
Amen.
Happy New Year, one and all !! -
slightly OT: one theory I like about the creation myth/garden of eden, is that it was a symbolic story to describe the neolithic revolution.
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And where does Lilith fit into this?
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Lilith was with Adam, his 1st wife but has nothing to do with the topic question.
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yes... but didn't lilith refuse to submit to Adam, so he got a second chance with eve? So which woman, Lilith or Eve, had more influence in the garden? IF you bring Lilith into the interpretation, wasn't Eve created to be submissive to Adam, whereas Lilith was not?
If Lilith is allowed in the story, then men and women are created simultaneously and equally... the first version... but the second version in genesis does not create them simultaneously or equally... and much more so Eve was Under Adam. -
Lilith wasn't submissive at all. She had poor Adam running for cover.
I read God sent his angels to bring Lilith back to Adam but she just won't have it.
Then again God made Lilith and Eve from impure earth and surprise, surprise they turned out bad. I would suggest that GOD breathe air into pure earth, he may get better results. lmao
Lilith is a piece of the puzzle I just can't make too much sense out of yet but I will chew on it. -
True... Lilith complicates things.
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@freeatlast....yes but Lilith must hold a good chunk of the puzzle too because she shows up later again in the Bible with King Solomon and the two become lovers,
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I am not amazed at the feminist views that are monopolizing the commentary here, but I am amazed at the quick-handed, broad-stroke inferences to scripture. Assuming that we are all reading from the book of Genesis (regardless of belief in myth or scripture as Gods holy word)- God made man (mankind)to have dominion over creation (Gen 1:26).
Gen 2:7 picks up again with more specific information about the creation of Adam, created from dust, and the creation of the garden of Eden.
Gen 2:15 - God put man into the garden of Eden to work it and keep it.
In 2:16-17, God gave His first command to Adam, not to eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
2:18 - God created a helper for Adam (a help-mate,to help him take dominion over creation,the helper was woman)
Gen 3:1 has the serpent (Satan) talking with the woman about the tree of knowledge of good and evil (this dialogue demonstrates that Adam had instructed her of Gods commandment not to eat of the tree, since there is not record of God telling Eve not to eat of this particular fruit).
Gen 3:6, "So the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate." (ESV)
Adam was with Eve! Look at the text...she didn't have to "go find" him, he was right beside her.
Adam demonstrated his husbandry by informing Eve of Gods desire that this particular fruit was not to be eaten, but he failed by abdicating his leadership by not protecting her from the serpent and by not stopping her from eating the forbidden fruit.
When we look further at the text in vs 3:14-19 at "the curse" we see that vs 14 and 15 is the first presentation of the gospel and outcome of Christ (her offspring) defeating Satan and death.
In vs 16 and 17, God addresses the woman by cursing her with pain in child birth (childbirth is required to bring forth the Savior). Further He told her that she would continue to desire the leadership role of her husband (meaning she will be against his leadership position given by God) but her husband would rule over her as the hierarchy established by God.
Gen 3:17 - and God told Adam, "because you have listened to the voice of your wife and have eaten of the tree of which I commanded you, 'You shall not eat of it,' cursed is the ground because of you............." Clearly Adam was at fault because he followed her leadership..."listened to the voice of your wife."
Now....that said, we must also agree that there have been generations of men that have failed in their role as the biblical leader of their family and have misused the role of leadership that God has given...and they will answer to the Lord for their failures.
So to answer the initial question scripturally, Adam was supposed to be in the leadership role in the garden of Eden.
Adam and Eve were created equal spiritually but they were created to fulfill different roles.-
@cgoodson....Ceasar didn't listen to the advice of his wife either when she warned him that he was about to be murdered. Guess what? he got murdered, so no don't listen.
"I am not amazed at the feminist views that are monopolizing the commentary here", you said.
Well where are all you men then and why don't you all come in and have your say?
When was I ever known as a feminist? Your 2 second eyeball judgment is way off.
Every time a woman speaks she is a feminist, or a temptress.
How dare you come in here with this shit.
I read the same bible as you, only with my eyes open.
Neither will I open my mouth to be feed lies and deceit just because it was written in the bible, as if the bible hasn't many different interuptations and written by many different hands,
all of which were men as if men aren't liars, manipulators and deceivers.
I will take nothing at face value, only a fool would do so and live their life by blind faith
and if that is being a feminist, then yes I am a feminist. Please
Just because you don't agree with everything said here doesn't give you the right to come in here and dismiss everything by a woman because you an issue with women.
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You got me going alright because what you said seems to imply that women don't have Men's
best interest at heart or even God's best interest at heart.
All of which is false. I see many women who are married to men and they are helpers
and have their man's best interest at heart.
Those who are not married may have God's best interest at heart.
This negative view of women to me is also another part of the curse which seeks to dismiss anything that a woman has to say because anything that she said according to men is untrue and deceptive, lies and deceit.
Sounds more like the woman haters club to me. Sounds like you have an issue with women.-
Seems I hit a nerve...funny how I didn't address any specific comment posted earlier except the main question. I'm sorry that you have taken this personally, but now encourage you to do some introspection on why this is such a hot topic for you, especially if you are reading the scriptures with your "eyes open." Just having your eyes open and not your spirit will not let you see anything other than the truth that you are expecting to find.
I do not have issues with women, I do not have a negative view of women, nor am I a women hater. I also did not say that women are lairs or full of deceit - I plainly stated that Adam was a fault.
I also firmly believe that God is a loving God and a God of order. He made the order (I didn't). I am sure that scripture bears out that there are defined roles for both men and women.
Men have failed in their responsibility to the women in their life since Adam. Most men, including the non-believers in America, can all tell you that scripture says "Wives obey your husbands" yet they don't understand the context nor the responsibility that they have to love their wives as Christ loved the church. Or they will pull out of 1 Peter 3:7 that the wife is the weaker vessel, but they fail to understand that this speaks to the husbands role of protector and not superior. Women are fully equal in Christ and are not inferior spiritually. As Peter goes on to say that they are joint "heirs together of the grace of life."
No Ma'am....I don't have issues with women, but I do have issues with someone play fast and loose with scripture to suit their own needs and defend their own positions.
The original question was about Adam and Eve in the garden of Eden and who was "in charge". As has been stated before, the bottom line is God was, is and always will be "in charge", but in the context of Adam and Eve, Adam was given the responsibility of a husband. -
@cgoodson..."but I do have issues with someone play fast and loose with scripture to suit their own needs and defend their own positions".
"Just having your eyes open and not your spirit will not let you see anything other than the truth that you are expecting to find".
And who says my eyes and spirit is closed?
I don't think anybody here is playing fast and loose, this is very serious topic and I have a right
to be introspec and think deeply on the subject, even if I go into other areas that haven't been touched on before. My mind is free and will go where it has to so that it can find truth.
What you have said above is nothing new but you addressing some of us as feminist is FALSE. That is your view and holds no sway with me.
My true purpose is not so much being a wife to a husband but a wife to my God, he comes 1st
and that is my main concern and I don't see that as being feminist.
You're not the 1st to hint to this negative bullshit either but some of us are sensitive and can pick up your little let downs and I sure don't appreciate it, so let's hope you meant well.
This may be a hot topic for me but that is my business.
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NOTHING I haven't heard before.
LOL indeed.-
NOTHING I haven't heard before.
LOL indeed.
No kidding. This whole thread from the get go was a set-up. There was no actual intention to evoke and participate free flowing discussion that had no predetermined aim. This forum was used as a pulpit by a preacher/teacher, who posted this thread to enable spieling Christian evangelical fundamentalist theology. A second preacher/teacher even dropped in to use scripture to buttress the "message".
NOTHING I haven't heard before.
LOL indeed.
Blah, blah, blah
Scripture teaches that God created men and women to be equal but different (cf. Gen. 1-2). Both men and women are created by God in his image, with equal purpose and dignity. However, both men and women have rebelled from him and are fallen and in need of salvation; both are redeemed by Christ and incorporated into him; and are equally used in his service to love God and his people.
Blah, blah, blah
Nevertheless, God does not intend men and women to have identical responsibilities in the family and the church. In marriage the husband is lovingly to lead his wife, and the wife is to submit willingly to his headship (Eph. 5:21-33; 1 Pet. 3:1-7; Col. 3:18-19).
Blah, blah, blah
Similarly in the church, it is the responsibility of suitably gifted men to lead the church family, through faithful Bible teaching and pastoral oversight (1 Tim. 3:1–2; 5:17; Tit. 1:6–9; 1 Pet. 5:1–3; cf. Matt. 28:19–20; Acts 20:28–31; 1 Cor. 16:15–16; Eph. 4:11–12; 1 Thess. 5:12–13; 2 Tim. 2:2; Js. 3:1).
Blah, blah, blah
In God’s loving wisdom, leadership of the church family is not a responsibility for women (1 Tim. 2:11-15; 1 Cor. 14:33-35). This is not a denial that women are gifted for ministry (which is self-evidently and Biblically not the case, see Tit. 2:3-5; Col. 3:16; 1 Cor. 11:4–16; cf. Phil. 4:2–3), or because the pastoral and teaching ministry of women in appropriate contexts is not highly valued, but because his pattern for the relationship between men and women is one of equality and difference. This pattern is also a reflection of the ordered relationships within the Trinity, and the relationship of Christ and the church (cf. 1 Cor. 11:3; Eph 5:23-32).
Equal by different is the slogan that exemplifies the position of those Christians, who wish to keep women in subjugation to their husbands, and out of pulpits in Christian churches.
Those who choose to become brainwashed with this kind of magical non-thinking are more comfortable with relying on interpretation of on ancient writing rather than using the gray matter between their ears.
Thinking (thought, cognition) is a powerful tool. You can lead a very decent, honest and good life upholding the equality of all men and all women with no need to associate these things with any belief system. And humanity would be better served if that was what we chose to do. -
nail hit on head.
I'm having flashbacks.
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@freeatlast
I smelled the stench of three day old fish (equal but different) from the outset. -
as did I, but here in MN we call that lutefisk and it's considered a delicacy.
So once in a while I like to join in for the sake of wallowing in it. -
I won't hesitate to tell these brainwashed and delusional non-thinkers to compost it!
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Yup. I smelled the bait too. -
yes... it was obviously bait... but I've ignored so much bait for so long around here regarding all this, that I decided to allow myself a treat.
mmm lutefisk and pickled herring!
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So do I, yes I smell the bait.
It's obvious to me that the serpent/snake shows up for one purpose only and that is to keep God's mate separated from him. That is the serpents vindictive and conniving nature.
The Church (the shekinah, sophia) has fallen and needs rebuilding.
That is what these so called Churches today should be busy doing, not controlling an subordinating women into ownership and property like cattle. Shame on all these Churches who do so.
You will never see in a Church unless it's my own. -
Aaaarrrggghhh... -
It's interesting, and quite enlightening, to read the kaleidoscope of perspectives being expressed here.
One essential ingredient that any ideology, cosmology... must have to sustain it's influence beyond time and space, is the capacity to integrate other cultures, perspectives, opinions into it's main thought frame, without losing it's substance.
This requires a hight degree of flexibility, tolerance, and openness - much like what we see in the Open Source Software programming paradigm.
Unknown to many new and emerging religious philosophies - who BTW are surprisingly narrowminded - this is one of the major strengths of the world's dominant religions and ideologies (such as Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Socialism, Capitalism, etc.)
The lifespan of any rigid point of view (one that fails to accomodate opposing views dispassionately) is sadly limited. It will rant and rage against the major religious super-weights, but will ultimately fade into oblivion. -
it was the snake at the tree of knowledge-
@fzcamora ...lol. The snake sure wielded lots of influence!
I believe that the era of masculine dominance over women is over because women are beginning to question long cherished religious assumptions and conclusions.
It's always important to go back to the beginnings of time and see how things really were:
I'm coming up with a post soon to detail my evidence, strictly from the bible, to show that the woman was in the top leadership position at the Garden of Eden...and She's the superior of the two genders, and is on a rapid ascent back to her original status!
I live in a third world nation, saturated with religious and traditional superstitious beliefs and until your argument is rooted in their sacred books and cultural concepts, it's not relevant at all to them, they won't even consider what you are saying.
But I'm glad that the case, for women's original leadership status over men, can be made even with the Holy Scriptures!
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